The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: Marqs1979 on 28.02. 2016 16:52
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Hey!
I can not get my dynamo on my A10 to charge. I have bought a regulator for negative earth from Wasell and connects according to the instructions. Has also done as you should, and tried to drive the dynamo as a motor, and it spins in the same direction as the arrow shows the dynamo.
When I run the motorcycle engine and measure with a voltmeter, I get no response just about 6V (same as when i was not running the dynamo). The meter does not show anything if I measure directly on the dynamo, should it show something then?
Some tipps?
http://forumbilder.se/F8V8V/20160228-165532.jpg
http://forumbilder.se/F8V8V/20160228-1654666888.jpg
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Hi Marqs, I recently dealt with this on my A10. First you check to see if the dynamo is spinning (maybe a broken drive chain), then unplug the 2 wires from the dynamo and with another piece of scrap wire link the 2 wires from the dynamo together. Then take your voltage meter and put it on about a 20v DC setting, take the positive wire from your METER and connect to a good grounding place on your bike, and take the negative wire from your METER and attach it to the linked wire you linked the 2 wires from your dynamo. Start up your motor and you should immediately see a reading of at least 12v on your meter, and if you rev the motor a bit, the voltage should rise to maybe 18 or more.
If , after checking, the voltage reading on your meter is showing "negative" volts i.e. -13v, then you need to change the polarity of the dynamo. This is done by removing the link that you placed across the 2 wires from the dynamo and then, run a spare wire from the negative terminal on your battery and touch it to the "field" wire in your dynamo. You only need to touch it for a second or two, and you will see a spark. This will change the polarity if done correctly, then re-link the 2 dynamo wires and measure the output voltage as described before. Note:- if you are running solid state voltage regulator, you will not read any voltage coming from the regulator unless you have the battery connected. Then an easy check to see if the battery is charging is start up the bike, let it idle and turn on your headlight, you will see a discharge on your amp meter, rev up the motor and then the amp meter should show a charge, if so your'OK, if not, better start checking ALL your wires related to the battery and dynamo, especially the ones in the headlight nacelle.
Good luck with it
Clive
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Is the dynamo well earthed? If yes, try (re)polarising the dynamo first.
As Clive mentioned, if the battery is fully charged, there won't be any charge from the dynamo via the regulator.
Between D + F and earth you should measure well over 14V.
If not, connect the D brush to earth and the earth brush to D and try again
I that don't work there may be a problem with the field coil. Disconnect the coil and measure it's resistance. That should be around 2.8 ohms
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It's uncommon for the field coil to be faulty, it's usually the armature.
Try as per Clive's instructions.
Motoring is not an indication of whether the generator is any good.
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I will investigate according to your instructions :) Can add that the dynamo is fully fully renovated with new parts.
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The direction of rotation when motoring should be anti-clockwise viewed from the drive end. As is the direction for generating.
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I can not brag that my English is particularly good so therefore I ask. this is what I should do?
http://forumbilder.se/F8VC4/20160229-185506.jpg
the result is bad :( only about 1
I get a little bit more about 2 volts if I go half throttle
Have also tried to polarize the coil
I wonder if I understand the wiring diagram right as my first picture ??
http://forumbilder.se/F8VC5/20160229-192154.jpg
where I drew the line ! Certainly it symbolize an earth point ?
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http://forumbilder.se/F8VC5/20160229-192714.jpg
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One lead from the coil should be earthed, the other to "F" terminal.
Connect the lead to earth which gives the correct rotation.
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Yes ! in the old manner , it is so , but if I understand this right , I'll connect field coil to the terminal D and F ???
http://forumbilder.se/F8VC7/20160229-215744.jpg
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in your photo you have wired your dynamo to negative earth as in the right hand side drawing. for positive earth the d is not connected to a field wire.
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Yes ! The regulator is for negative earth .
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I wrote apparently wrong in my first post :( sorry: /
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OK . . . I think there is confusion here because I think the Wassell regulator works to regulate on the live side, like a JG unit.
If so - and the diagrams seem to support this from what I can read of them - the wiring should be as follows:
One field coil wire to D, one to F terminal
One brush to D, other to earth
And for the test to see if the dynamo works as it should with the field from D to F? Disconnect the regulator, connect the dynamo F terminal to earth and then put a bulb/meter between D and earth and start the engine. It should light the bulb / show plenty of volts.
This is the same test as bridging F and D and putting a bulb / meter across the bridge to earth on a standard Lucas arrangement, which is what your photo shows and which won't work in this case if I haven't misunderstood the position completely.
Same applies about reversing the wires from the field coil if the rotation ends up wrong, and same applies about the choice of earth.
To guarantee polarity and correct rotation, connect F to earth and then connect battery POSITIVE to D terminal and battery NEGATIVE to earth. It should motor in the direction it is turned on the machine, and the polarity will be set by doing this. But you need the sprocket off the drive end to do it, so you can see which way it goes.
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If you look carefully at the Wassell diagram you will get very confused! What Wassell describe as the 'old configuration' is wrong because Lucas always had one brush and one field coil earthed - the diagram shows just the brush earthed. Furthermore, the brush (or the field wire) which is earthed differs between clockwise and anti-clockwise dynamos. They also say 'move the field wire marked 2 from the earth screw' yet the field wire marked 2 is attached to the F terminal. It looks as though the Wassell have got the pictures in the wrong order, but still the instructions don't make perfect sense. To be absolutely honest, and this may not sound very helpful at this stage - sorry, I would wire the bike positive earth and use a positive earth regulator, in which case you can retain the original wiring configuration of the dynamo. On the other hand, if you persevere with what you've got I'm sure you'll get it sorted.
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Now the dynamo charge anyway . However, only about 10 volts at idle. Tried plugging in the regulator but the battery does not charge : / I have removed all shrink tubing as I sat on the cables and controlled joints etc. Wondering if I managed to break the controller in any way ???
Do regulators operate with completely empty battery ? Has put the battery on charge. Should test more when the battery is charged.
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10 volts at idle is OK. I would wire the regulator directly onto the battery, not via the ammeter, and test the battery voltage with a multimeter before wiring through the ammeter. Another easy way is to put a bulb across the battery whilst the bike is running and see if the bulb goes brighter as you rev the bike.
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I tried again just now , and the result is the same .
I have not ammeter connected right now. The only thing that linked is the regulators 4 cables. 2 to the dynamo and one to + on the battery and the last one to earth. I use a multimeter to see if it loads . it always shows only the same as when the engine is not running about 6 volts.
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Unlike other regulators the Wassell regulator does not allow the battery to charge up to 7v. You may find that you get a better result if your battery is already quite flat (but not knackered!). This allows the regulator to charge more evidently.
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Yes ! Perhaps its charching anyway . I let the battery drop to about 2 volts and started the engine . When I turnerd the trottle a little the multimeter showed about 4 volts . Something happens anyway . I expected to see about 7 volts.
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Perhaps the regulator is no good?
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Have I missed it or is it a 12 or 6 volt system ? Early in the story it sounded like you were chasing 12V then sounds like it's changed to 6V..??
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there are 6 volt system with negative earth .
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Yes ! Perhaps its charching anyway . I let the battery drop to about 2 volts and started the engine . When I turnerd the trottle a little the multimeter showed about 4 volts . Something happens anyway . I expected to see about 7 volts.
Is this enough ? it is normal and as it should you think ?
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A little frustrating :( I have emailed the company that sold the regulator and also directly to Wassell to know what is normal and what is not normal. None of them answer :(
So I do not really know what to do. Feels stupid to buy another regulator if this does what it should, It also feels stupid to complete electricity system and then start over if it is found to malfunction in the middle of summer.
What regulators do you use?
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If you don't have around 7 - 7.5 volts your battery won't be charged.
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You ask: What regulators do you use?
A lot of people here use the DVR2 Regulator supplied by http://dynamoregulators.com/
I have them on three dynamo machines, others here have many more than that, and their reputation is very good. Available in negative or positive earth and they work at 6v or 12v.
They require the dynamo to be wired the Lucas way, ie the field coil from F terminal to earth, one brush to earth and the other brush to D terminal.
If you wanted to stay with the dynamo wired the way you have it now (with the field across the F and D terminals), then a JG unit should be a straightforward fit, see http://www.davelindsley.co.uk/jg-electronic-regulators.html. I used one of those for 15 years until replacing it with a DVR2, and it still worked fine.
If you wanted to look at another option, the Podtronics dynamo regulator is also highly regarded : http://www.podtronics.net/DC_regulator.htm. This one looks rather like what you have got, but it is not the same thing inside. There are other units available, but I don't have any experience with them on my own machines. See, eg, http://www.aoservices.co.uk/data/v-reg.htm
The one you have unfortunately does not have a great reputation. It does not seem to me it is doing what it should, whether because it has got damaged in the process of playing with it, or because it was defective from new. Price is relevant - you do tend to get what you pay for with these things.
If it were me, I'd get a DVR2 and go from there, but any of the above would be better, I think, than what you have.
Replacement mechanical regulators are also available - but their quality can be doubtful, both electrically and in terms of construction.
The most expensive option would be to swap the whole charging system for an Alton alternator (which now comes with a good Podtronics rectifier/regulator and has an improving reputation, although I have no first-hand experience. See http://www.alton-france.com/generators.html).
So there are some good choices, which ought to provide plenty of power, protect the dynamo and battery - and enable you to put these woes behind you.
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And not to forget the V-Reg;
http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyelectrex.htm
Scroll about halfway the page
I run on of these and they work great.
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Marqs, please note that your Wassell regulator will NOT show a charging voltage to your battery unless you have the wires, POS and NEG, connected to your battery, If you are trying to read a voltage by just connecting to the wires going to the battery, and not having the wires actually connected to the battery terminals, you won't get the desired results
Better still just bring it over to my house and we'll fix it together....I'm in California USA, ...but it'll be worth it.
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Haha :) california sounds nice :) Here in the yard , it is half a meter of snow . In California it would do better to test drive too :)
When I test with the multimeter , I measure on the battery which is connected.
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Could my problem be because I have thin wires ? I'm using 1.5 mm wires : /
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Won't be just the wires Marqs - as long as they are connected!
When you say thin, could be just thinwall modern insulation, or is it small core? I think you'd maybe want to look at what you have - compared to what is recommended for battery leads and main power feeds for such as headlights etc to be sure you won't have anything getting too warm. And one or more fuses . . . .
Here's some info on thinwall modern cabling: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/section.php/198/1/single-core-pvc-thin-wall-cable/e1b5f233104dbd5f580d9459dcedf753
You want to be sure the wire used is OK for the loads and current- watts & amps - going through them.
Norbsa (Paul Goff) sells them Morris - but Alan Osborne makes them, so we've said the same thing re the V Reg II.
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The core is 1,5 mm²
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Norbsa (Paul Goff) sells them Morris - but Alan Osborne makes them, so we've said the same thing re the V Reg II.
Yep I noticed afterwards. But that's me. Always to quick to jump on the wagon and end up with the bloody nose... *red*
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1,5mm core, thinwall pvc insulation, is meant to be good to 21 amps (typical manufacturer's rating) but in practical terms, half that. It is usually used for light duty.
(Standard pvc insulation is lower-rated as it retains heat.)
I think best advice would be to use 44/0.3 (3mm) or 12AWG cable for battery leads, and 28/0.3 (2mm) or 35/0.3 (2.5mmm) (14AWG) for headlight and main load carrying cables. Others here may have better suggestions. (I usually use the heaviest wire that will go comfortably into the various holes and fittings!)
This isn't your immediate problem, but may be something to think about as you get the machine working properly. The last thing you want is for it to catch fire due to a short cicrcuit.
AND . . . Fuses, Fuses . . .!
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A lot of people here use the DVR2 Regulator supplied by http://dynamoregulators.com/
I have them on three dynamo machines, others here have many more than that, and their reputation is very good. Available in negative or positive earth and they work at 6v or 12v.
They require the dynamo to be wired the Lucas way, ie the field coil from F terminal to earth, one brush to earth and the other brush to D terminal.
Kind of aside to the point in hand here, but I'm having problems with a DVR2 not working on my Sunbeam (S7D - so kind of a BSA at least) at the moment. It's OK with a mechanical unit in place. Under what circumstances would the dynamo not be wired the Lucas way?
Thanks
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Kind of aside to the point in hand here, but I'm having problems with a DVR2 not working on my Sunbeam (S7D - so kind of a BSA at least) at the moment. It's OK with a mechanical unit in place. Under what circumstances would the dynamo not be wired the Lucas way?
Thanks
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If you want negative earth . According to the description on my Wassell regulator you should connect the dynamo different.
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We're getting into what people often refer to as 'shunt wound' and 'series wound' dynamos here. Lucas standard for the E3Ls etc we have is 'shunt wound'. Many others (Miller for one) are 'series wound', with the field connected across F and D and the field strength being regulated on the 'live' side.
A DVR2 and some other regulators work only with so-called shunt-wound dynamos. JGs, and maybe this Wassell thing - when negative earth at least??? - need the dynamo wired the other way.
Most dynamos are capable of working either way, although there may be questions as to the resistance of field coils in some cases. A DVR2 needs a minimum field resistance of, I think, 2 ohms. All Lucas m/cycle dynamos, 3, 3.5 and 4.5 inch, have at least that.
I am guessing the MC45L Lucas instrument on a Beam is wired with the field between F and earth, but I don't know. If it isn't, then a DVR2 wouldn't work; if it is and a DVR2 doesn't work, then there is some other issue that I don't understand!
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Hi,
Avoid the AO and the likes,
They discharge at low revs, also stop working when tha battery voltage falls below a certain level
DVR2's work well, even though I had a dud one too
I have run a Podtronics on my A10 since I built it in 2002, it will work with a flat or no battery *smile*
John
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Everyone seems to like the DVR 2 ☺ But of course, I find this text on the website :( I guess I'll take it slow one week :(
http://forumbilder.se/F97CJ/screenshot-2016-03-11-23-09-06.png
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Yeah, they told me they were out next week. I'd assumed it was works shut down with Easter coming up.
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Hello
I have ordered a DVR2 for positive earth . I thought I would wire dynamo right so that it is ready when my new regulator comes home . Should it be wired as the original Lucas ?
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Yes.
Field coil - one end to F terminal and the other end to earth. One brush to earth (use same small screw to the dynamo as for the field coil wire); other brush to D terminal.
If by now you've forgotten (I would have!) which way the field coil wires and/or brushes need connecting to make the dynamo work in the correct direction, you'll need to do some fresh checks. Also need to be sure you've got the polarity right for positive earth.
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The DVR2 looks like it does its job :)
Thank you all for all your help !!