The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Frame => Topic started by: Beeza on 04.09. 2017 08:06
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Has anyone ever seen one of these large tanks? The smaller one is a genuine goldy tank with the bashed in bit to clear the GP carb. Both are headed to the platers soon, so I thought I'd post a few pic's of them bare.
Cheers Thomas
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Thomas
Can you post pictures of the underside of both?
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The big one looks like it has been blown up with pressure in attempting to remove dents.
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The big one looks like it has been blown up with pressure in attempting to remove dents.
No chance there Trev, the tank is mint, not the smallest ding in it.Thomas
Can you post pictures of the underside of both?
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IS the big one steel with a copper flash or full copper because I can see a lot of what looks like solder on it.
With a hinged cap on the right, it was intended for a pre-unit B series single and the big badge indent says Gold Star.
However the indent underneath says twin so perhaps an RGS
However I can not see why any one would want to carry that sort of weight penalty unless it was a special tank for an endurance event and cut out a couple of fuel stops.
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Hi,
Is there any chance its an Indian made copy?
Some of them seem to be oversize but I have not seen one with a depression around the fixing bolt hole
Repro tanks usually do not have the double diamater piece for the tank bolt just a plain tube with a washer at the bottom
John
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Thomas,
The big tank is typical of a blow up.
The top should look the same as the other as should the rear tunnel.
The welds on the bottom don't look factory so you could assume that the bottoms have been out at some time for repair.
Measure the distance between the bottom studs and compare.
When they are blown the distance increases.
I'm not trying to be a smart idiot but I have seen tanks which have had the air treatment and they looked like yours.
Trevor.
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Why not measure out 4 gallons of water and check the capacity. If it was pressurized, it would distort but not increase capacity. Maybe it's just late and my logic is distorted.
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t would distort but not increase capacity.
Know what you mean but in theory the above can only apply to a perfect sphere ;)
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I posed the question of the tank to Ross Thompson, who has more experience with British tank repair than anyone on the planet.
His reply:
Hi Dan
"I had a look at your photos of the BSA tanks. I would say that the mystery tank is an original BSA tank. That someone has put air pressure inside the tank and has puffed it. You can see by the welds at the rear of the tunnel where it has split and then welded up. The tunnel of the tank has been spread at the front. Also when tanks are puffed you'll get that sucked down look of the top centre amount as the mystery tank has'.
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OK, it is steel but a lighter gauge, the chrome was removed but the copper is still on. It's not an Indian one, they have a seam weld front and back. BSA have a lap weld front and back. Measuring the tank over the centre mount, from the seam weld up over and back down to the seam weld on the other side, this tank is 25mm (1 inch) longer, so there is physically more steel!
It hasn't been blown up!! Air does not create a perfect pressing where the centre bolt is, nor raise the metal quite evenly at the back and front. Air does push out the two big depressions in the base and generally reward you with a crease or two somewhere around there as well. This is not from my experience (I would never pump up a tank), but I've seen results of this.
I do intend to find out its capacity, as I've been told BSA did provide a 5 gallon steel tank for the RGS. I feel we are getting closer to finding this out.
The welding at the back end, although not neat, I'm guessing was to make the standard base fit the larger body. Also the, 'pressed in' top of the body seems to be there, so as a standard through bolt tube could be used.
Thanks for all the feed back so far.
Give my regards to Ross Thompson, and also show him my thoughts and photos.
AAAND MORE PHOTO'S
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hi guys, not knowing anything of blowing up fuel tanks with air but I am thinking that if I were to do something like that I would use water or oil and hydraulically do it, to my mind it would do a careful stretching of the metal, just my thoughts, cheers
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Beeza
Thanks for the additional photos. I see the crease where the seat cut out is perfectly formed and not caused by pressurization. Same with the center mount hole. Earlier, I had considered it an Indian reproduction, since the take considerable liberties with accuracy. Additionally, I don't think they understand the concept of copper-nickel-chrome.
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I think that you will find that the 5 gallon tank was aluminium alloy.
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Interesting topic, would be cool to find out the end result if the mystery is ever solved. I looked at it as well as possible of a "Blow up" tank, but for many reasons I dont think it is. It is NOT inconceivable that someone did make these as a repop or replacement and not just in India.
I got some wonderful metal work done on my 1948 Speed twin tank and 2 other bits by a local craftsman who is not in the MC trade but took them on as an interesting challenge. But sadly,, metal work takes a toll and he no longer accepts jobs.
But I know a few other folks who also roll and form steel and alloy, including a local engineer for a well known international manufacturer of trucks who in his spare time built a custom hand formed steel body for a customized car.
But certain aspects of those tanks point to die forming, 2 ways to do that, one a short term limited production buck (Often hardwoods) or a hardened steel form buck and a plate pressing (Very expensive and still only good for so many pressings)
I will be submitting a tech article for several clubs newsletters this winter on the dangers of dent removal and the right and wrong ways to do so. I have several wonderful examples to use that were victims of DPO Bodgery. One was a Norton tank owned by of all people a structural engineer. (I wouldnt live or work in any structure that guy worked on) He should have known better, but tried to blow out dents with compressed air. Tank looks like an elephant stepped on it.
I will say in summary, DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT, NO NO NO NO.........NO! use compressed air, frozen water or hydraulic pressure to remove dents.
Here is why, The dent will be the LAST part to pop out or return to shape. Learn mettalurgy and its characteristics. When a dent is formed it is stretching and distorting the metal which in effect makes it HARDER than the surrounding parts. You CAN anneal or soften the metal and often required after metal forming or hammer work. But the dent is harder and therefore the last item to move. Now, if you made a reverse die, you could in theory use compressed air or hydraulic pressure because this would hold all the other surfaces in check and only the dent would have the opportunity to move.
In order to do proper metal repair you have to have a good grasp of the dents creation and then reverse it in that order, There is some really good you tube videos on dent removal, metal shrinking and metal forming. Ron Covell has some excellent books, videos and seminars out as well.
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Sort of agree with you on this one Sluggo.
Air is a no no no.
Hydraulic is the best way to go short of cutting off the bum and doing it with a dolly then heat shrinking.
The trick is to sit the tank dent side up
Apply a small amount of pressure and heat the dent from just inside the edge of the dent.
Where you have been heating will roll out.
At this point stop and allow the metal to cool down to a uniform temperature.
Then repeat on the inside edge of the remaining dent.
When it rolls out stop, allow to cool down then repeat as may times as necessary.
When you have finished you will have a slightly rippled wart on the tank so you then tip out the water and use std heat shrinking to pull the wart flat.
Not difficult to do.
You need a fine flame on your torch for rolling the dent .
The most difficult part is taking it SLOW
I have spent several days on some dents.
This will only work on rounded dents like a handlebar or forks, it will not work if the metal has a crease or very sharp corner,
When the metal gets to a very dull red, it will start to move.
You are not annealing the steel, just stress relieving ( these are totally ) different things.
However heat shrinking will anneal the steel so when you have finished you wil have a soft spot on the tank that will dent again easier than a tank that has not been worked on.
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Agreed here Trevor,, What you are describing is a very well established technique. There are other techniques as well but they all take practice. I have done very little of it in the last 10 years and getting back into it and finding my skills to be rather lacking or pardon the pun,, Rusty.
Practice practice practice.
I have seen some other promising tech as well in some body shop trade papers and will try and sign up for some classes this winter. Plus a lot of youtube videos to watch. I saw some material a while back on shrinking and using these flapper wheels that seemed promising. Amazing results in the demos I saw.
I have a stud gun welder and puller setup. It uses copper coated nails (not real nails, these are specially made) and you spot weld them onto the metal and then use a slide hammer and T handle pullers to pull the dents. (You can often avoid having to cut out the bottoms of a tank)
But indiscriminate yanking will just further distort the metal,, I use techniques with a torch while pulling the dents much like you describe which often makes it a 2 person job.
Much like this setup, (I found the gripper on the puller lacking and modified mine with a small pair of vice grips/mole grips)
See: https://www.amazon.com/BRAND-WELDER-SLIDE-HAMMER-REPAIR/dp/B00IDYQWK2
I know these pictures are a deviation from the topic at hand but the relevance is metal distortion and stretching related to that tank. (My opinion is somebody made that tank, not distorted, but the mystery is WHO? BSA or aftermarket?)
But whatta you guys think? Will this buff out? Believe it or not it WILL.. This car will never be a restoration (Too far gone to be viable) but it IS excellent ratrod material.
It will see the road again, but the body will be mounted on a late model Ford AWD Exploder with V8,. Think Mad Max Thunder road styling. But yes, even metal like this can be repaired,
Funny story on this one (I have 3 prewar coupes). This belonged to a museum volunteer who lives ironically just across the river from me. He owns an extensive collection of vehicles (40 at last count) and while clearing land on his farm found in the undergrowth he actually owned 1 more than he knew about. Fun stuff.
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AFAIK BSA made all of their tanks
The welded ones were usually made at Reddich or Waverley factories.
Virtually from the time BSA went into mass production they were always short of space.
They were always shifting production of some part from one shop to another.
One of the few really clever Ideas they had was to end all motorcycle assembly at Small Heath and use it to make most of the Triumph & BSA parts then do all assembly at Meriden.
Remember the factories at Small Heath were originally designed to make quite small things, rifles, and was not suited for assembly of large items like motorcycles.
Nearly all of the buildings were built during war time for war production, that last being the "new" building ( the one you see with the letters B . S & A ) specifically to assemble the Lewis machine gun.
Look at all of the internal factory photos and all you see is support columns every 10 foot.
Space constrictions and lots of small cottage factories spread out everywhere was a major problem for UK post WWII production and one of the biggest cost push items, especially when compared to German production which was done in new purpose built large factories as the allies had flattened most German industrial citys.
The best deal BSA ever got from selling an asset was for the sale of Daimler to Jaguar.
Jaguar did not want Daimler and did nothing with it after the take over but they desperately needed the space to build a new assembly line and Daimler was adjacent to Jaguar so they bought the company just to get floor space.This problem would still exist in the UK had it not been for the Thatcher government forcing industries to amalgamate or get nationalised.
The BSA Board seemed loathed to invest in a new factory purpose built for motorcycle manufacture & I believe this to be because they were expecting WW III to happen any tick of the clock and WW II proved the need to disperse manufacture into multiple small factories which are a much more difficult target.
We tend to forget BSA had something like 42 sites.
BSA sold it's stationary engine division which was very profitable to Villiers because it had outgrown the factory and there was litterally no space available to expand into.
This was a difficult decision because BSA engines were very popular and not subject to fashion or popularity swings like motorcycles were because farmers bought rotary hoe when they needed them , bricklayers & tilers bought lots of brick / tile elevators every year and lawnmower sales were going through the roof.
In fact Ransoms & Marles were still making BSA engines , under license till 2000.
The Redditch works which was the 4th largest was originally set up to make push bike hubs and latter expanded to make complete push bikes before being repurposed to make the side valve motorcycles from WW I through to WW II with the exception of the model B ( roundtank ) which was the first motorcycle BSA mass produced.The Reddith No 1 works ( there were 3 in Redditch ) was 5 acres.
Amercians who are familiar with 100 acre + industrial complexes seem to have problems understanding how the Brits could make so much in such small spaces.
Small Heath was only 25 acres and 4 of them were open space ( where the current paint ball park is ) and 4 more were houses for employees.
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That potted history of BSA is very interesting. Is there a book I could get that would tell me more?
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That potted history of BSA is very interesting. Is there a book I could get that would tell me more?
You are right Greybeard an absolutely fascinating read. Hard to imagine now just how big BSA was. I used to work for Thorn EMI and that was also a huge international company. All gone now of course, but then thats the way of British industry. When the founder Sir Jules Thorn was alive he had a policy of continual expansion. After he died the board was infiltrated by bean counters and they could not sell it all off fast enough. The first thing to go was the apprentice school and everything went rapidly down hill from then.
John
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Try " The Giants of Small Heath" by Barry Ryerson first published in 1080.
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Try " The Giants of Small Heath" by Barry Ryerson first published in 1080.
Had a quick look on Ebay and Amazon. Must be a collector's item; nothing less than £35!
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You can usually pick them up cheap from the ex-library book sellers.
Ryerson was compulsory reading for management diploma students when I used to teach TAFE.
I showed one tho the head of school & he immediately put it on the reading list.
Text book of how to destroy a sound business.
The rest comes from very wide reading.
Now that most of the guilty parties have hung up their helmets for good, the real , or rather full facts are slowing coming out.
Carbodies by Bill Munro is another good read as in Daimler by Brian Long.
The 3 books on BSA cars ( Not the rubbish attributed to Bacon ) are also very informative..
Heaton, Koerner, & Taylor all have PhD works that look at BSA from different angles.
Koerner has sanitised his work & published a book but it is not as good as the thesis which is available on line without the biblography & appendices for free or from the uni intact for £ 25
BSA themselves published a weekly news sheet called the BSA Group news for all their employees from the early 50's till the bitter end including the 1961 centenary issue.
very interesting and showed just how big BSA had become with lots of stuff like "new heaters fitted to Waverley No 3 plant " and "mills transferred from Reddich to Glen St".
You know the day to day stuff to make employees feel like they were part of a sound business.
There is a lot of stuff about Lancherster cars & trucks, on line. This was the first automotive business BSA swallowed up. again principally for the floor space.
Lanchester got adsorbed into Daimler after BSA bought Daimler for a lot more than it was worth, bailing out one of the "boards buddies" and there are lots of cases where inempt British mangers had run a business to ruins so some nice fellows of "good breeding" would step in and buy them out of trouble, with shareholders money of course.
Ariel was bankrupt when BSA bought then from Sangster for a lot more than Ariell was worth ( daddy was on the BSA board ) and the story was the same with Triumph again bought from Sangster for many times what it was actually worth.
When you look at all of the acquisitions of the board across a wide portfolio, from the aspect of how valuable would these assets be to a supplier to the War Department, is starts to make perfect sense.
BSA's most profitable times were war years and they were positioning themselves for a bigger piece of the pie when the USSR went to war with the USA.
History is very much an opinion piece, so you read a "history " of BSA then go the the cited sources to see what the author has based his opinion on then you look at the sources of the sources.
This is why Bacons books are such trash.
There is zero research in them,they are really just an amalgamation of BSA press releases and catalogues, roughly knocked up into a sort of book, full of mistakes and claiming "secret insider knowledge". The BSA despatch books for instance shows that there was one batch of 20 odd ivory framed B50 made & sent to the USA which were prompty sent strait back aftr which all of the B50's were black framed and similar with the A 50/65's, but all of the catalogues show them as ivory framed because the cataloguse were printed anything up to 18 months before the bikes were actually built ( according the Mettan )
Brad Jones books are really good, lots of between the lines stuff in there and then all of the stuff Stephen Mettan ( the 71 chief stylists ) published after BSA went down in both British & USA motorcycle publications, a real case of venting ones spleen with no holds barred. He blamed BSA for all his misfortunes and in particular Allister Cave for "destroying his brilliant concepts". He did a 45 minute interview which is worth watching a dozen times to get the full message . He was treated very unfairly and copped almost all the blame for BSA's downfall in the media cause he was an easy target and the chief stylist who designed a company into oblivion is not a good CV so he is rightfully *****, up to a point.
Then another BSA publication, "the other War" several variations of this from a 4 page pamphlet to a 100 page book, find one in a library cause that will set you back several hundred which is a bit steep for what was a free book in the first place.
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Heaton has interesting bits;
http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/77/1/Heaton07PhD.pdf
The factory board meetings are also worth considering.
The photos are from about 1964 showing BSA interests. Walter Brown was BSA Inc, New Jersey service manager.
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Here is an alleged Golden Flash tank for sale on ebay, and in the ad he claims its a
" This an original "western" style gas tank for BSA A10 and A7 golden flash models. The tank was recently re-chromed and painted. There is no bondo filler on the tank. The pin stripping is paint and not tape. The tank was pressure tested and show no leaks; it was lined with Caswell tank lining to prevent future leaks and rusting. The petcock spigots were chased with the proper tap to insure the threads are good. I know the price looks high but the cost for re-chroming a tank like this was $450. "
See: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-A10-A7-Golden-Flash-gas-tank-petrol-tank-/202076371248?hash=item2f0cb0b930:g:~ssAAOSweCVZxdEB
So, not sure what constitutes a "Western tank" But I would think it would be smaller version like a MX or dirt tracker, and a larger tank would be east coast, not west coast. But would indicate there is alternatives. Just a thought..
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If the chrome and paint are good I don't think it's too expensive. I had mine done with heavy copper to fill rust pits and ripples left behind from removing a dent, before smoothing then heavy chroming. I had my tank and tinware painted professionaly with two-pack then got a sign writer to do the lining. All the work on my tank cost me more than they are asking for that tank.
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Here is an alleged Golden Flash tank for sale on ebay, and in the ad he claims its a
" This an original "western" style gas tank for BSA A10 and A7 golden flash models. The tank was recently re-chromed and painted. There is no bondo filler on the tank. The pin stripping is paint and not tape. The tank was pressure tested and show no leaks; it was lined with Caswell tank lining to prevent future leaks and rusting. The petcock spigots were chased with the proper tap to insure the threads are good. I know the price looks high but the cost for re-chroming a tank like this was $450. "
See: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-A10-A7-Golden-Flash-gas-tank-petrol-tank-/202076371248?hash=item2f0cb0b930:g:~ssAAOSweCVZxdEB
So, not sure what constitutes a "Western tank" But I would think it would be smaller version like a MX or dirt tracker, and a larger tank would be east coast, not west coast. But would indicate there is alternatives. Just a thought..
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West cost tanks were generally smaller and sat higher on the frame than East coast tanks.
BSA regularly made a West Coast catalogue, an East Coast catalogue , a USA catalogue, a General Export catalogue and some times even a European export catalogue and then of course the Home catalogue.
I have 3 Canada catalogues where they Canadian bikes were different to the USA bike ( Canada usually got the Est Coast versions )
This is why I wet myself laughing when anyone says they have an "Original & Catalogue correct BSA".
Ever seen a pearl grey Rocket with a red tank & grey frame guards , oil tank & tool box anywhere else than on the catalogue ?
Pearl grey is actually mist grey from the Bantam range over a black undercoat.
Or how about a black frame , Ivory guards oil tank & tool box and again red tank with 4" gold star emblem , supposedly a rocket Gold Star, according to the catalogue description and lets not forget the twin pinlining with one gold & the other black
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" West cost tanks were generally smaller and sat higher on the frame than East coast tanks.
BSA regularly made a West Coast catalogue, an East Coast catalogue , a USA catalogue, a General Export catalogue and some times even a European export catalogue and then of course the Home catalogue.
I have 3 Canada catalogues where they Canadian bikes were different to the USA bike ( Canada usually got the Est Coast versions )
This is why I wet myself laughing when anyone says they have an "Original & Catalogue correct BSA"."
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Quite correct you are! I used to reproduce and sell factory and dealer literature as part of my shop business. Of course EVERYONE needs and SHOULD have the correct factory parts book and factory workshop manual for every motorcycle (& Vehicle) they own. That is a given, I used to have shop customers call up and had their own names for the Whatzit that bolts on to the Goddangit, right above the whizbang.
But IMHO nothing is MORE valuable than the dealer service bulletins and other correspondence as often it corrects information in other literature or gives guidance that is needed by the technician trying to correct a mysterious problem.
So, I finally gave up on parts books and manuals as at the time people were selling copies for less than my costs to print them, But I continued on for some time with some of the more rare materials. Sadly, a well known distributor in Australia drove the nail in that coffin. Kim the rip off man. I made it quite clear in my sales PLEASE dont just reprint this material to resell. Discounts for clubs, shops and businesses plus I donated some material to the UK Owners clubs. But he ordered massive amounts of my materials and then reprinted them in his CD Compilations and then claims copyright and please dont reprint. (Oh the temerity!)
So, if you look on his Triumph CD compilation I had supplied him what I felt was a true treasure. East coast dealer bulletins (Tricor) and west coast Dealer materials (JoMo). Each one had small and subtle but numerous differences between the 2 volumes (Covered 63-72) I have the originals and can prove this of course including formatted cover sheets I made that he also reproduced.
Luckily I was out of stock at the time for much of my BSA materials and he only got a fraction of that stuff.
But I have some Hap Alzina dealer literature from the late 1940s thru mid 60s and in there, is some true gems where they document for dealers HOW they altered machines ordered in. Gearing, tuning, carb sizes, body work and more all in details as well as tuning suggestions. The BSA onwers club in the uk were pleased to get this material but initially they over paid. I Told them they should have told me who they were before bidding on ebay. I sent them a bunch of material.
I dont recall anything on the petrol tanks that would apply to this tank pictured, and since my memory is faulty at times I review such material from time to time and did so 2 months ago while at our cabin. But if one of you guys is wondering about such mods (Mostly racing models such as Gold star) I would be happy to help with documentation.
But quite correct that BSA made things differently for different markets. So did Triumph, Norton et al....
But in the 50s and 60s dealers in the US asked for things the factories were slow to respond to or not at all.
Thus, many bikes were modified by the importer or in some cases dealers so since it was sold off the show room floor that way does that make it any less authentic? What IS Factory correct? I have a ton of stories related to that topic.
If any one wants a free copy of any materials on Kim the rip offs CDs,, feel free to ask, He certainly does not respect anyone else, Why should I respect the use of his purloined materials?