The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: LynnLegend on 14.06. 2018 09:22
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Hi all,
Following some warm-engine-starting issues, I am going to buy an EasyCap to see if that fixes it.
I don't know which one I need - I have a 1959 A7 (not SS). It has the original Mag on it - I'm at work so can't check, and I'd like to get it ordered this morning so it's ready for the weekend.
Also, any tips or advice on EasyCap's would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Sam.
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Hi, co2 is for the k2f
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See Brightsparks website;
http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/easycap/index.htm
Your mag is anticlockwise rotation.
Which one you need depends on which points assembly your mag has.
CO1 for anticlockwise brass points block (see photo)
CO4 for steel points block either rotation.
CO2 is for clockwise so not suitable for your anticlockwise magneto.
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Points on my 1960 A10 GF.
Lucas 492854 (new no 54440888) steel, anti-clockwise direction.
K2F Magneto BSA pt no 19-1210 (same pt no for 1959 A7).
I was looking at Brightsparks EasyCap a few weeks ago and made a note that if I wanted to go down that route in the future I would need the C04 for mine.
(Edit): I didn't take it any further because I didn't fancy the work of taking the condenser that is buried in the armature out if I'm not having problems with it.
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Is that grease in there Roger to lubricate your ring, if so, does it contaminate the points in any way ?
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(Edit): I didn't take it any further because I didn't fancy the work of taking the condenser that is buried in the armature out if I'm not having problems with it.
Indeed, and if someone's going to those lengths then why not just get a proper mag rewind + new capacitor and have done with it?
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Hi Roy, Yes - just a light smear around the cam ring to help prevent wear on the rocker fibre and also a drop of machine oil in the cam ring hole. Never had a problem with it getting on the contacts. It looks worse than it actually is. In the photo there's a lot of reflection on the right side of the cam ring so it looks like it's swimming in oil.
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Hi Roy, Yes - just a light smear around the cam ring to help prevent wear on the rocker fibre and also a drop of machine oil in the cam ring hole. Never had a problem with it getting on the contacts. It looks worse than it actually is. In the photo there's a lot of reflection on the right side of the cam ring so it looks like it's swimming in oil.
Thanks Roger, Think I'll give mine a smear. My felt has gone missing.
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Some none too well informed sceptics would have it that the small size of the EasyCap means it will be fragile. Far from it. These ceramic capacitors are massively more reliable than other types fitted in magnetos, whether original types or new 'rebuilds'. Poor capacitors probably contribute to the commonplace early demise of many such builds. Why an original magneto probably lasted tens of years, and all too many modern refurbished ones just a couple.
So with the EasyCap you do have to dismantle the magneto, but not really a major task; take it carefully, and read any advice before you run into trouble. Clip out the old 'condensor'. (And Brightspark's excellent website gives full step by step details of the procedure). Fit the EasyCap, and enjoy the benefits of a better ignition system. And one with much improved maintainability.
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C01 for anti-clockwise brass
C04 for either rotation 'low inertia' later steel cb backplate
C02 for CLOCKWISE brass backplate only - ie Vincents, some REs, and some other machines, Douglas, Scott, etc. (And most 4 cyl GJ4 etc etc Lucas on cars.)
(C03 for all face-cam magdynos, std N1s, many MLs etc)
And thanks to you DRC Mike for informed comment.
Done a good 100,000 km all told on the ones on my own much-used bikes, including 1000km over 72 hours in Spain last week in the mountains (Vuelta a Cantabria, brilliant event for them as have been and know) . . . not had to replace one yet.
End of 'Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?' BS.
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I don't think anyone said that the Easycap doesn't work; I had one in my old Empire Star some years back and it was no trouble and worked, but then the original magneto set-up worked for decades too. Proven technology.
If the Easycap installation was no more involved than removing the points etc etc then they would be ideal, but as the fitting involves getting into the guts of the mag (but still leaving the 70+ year old windings with it's possibly failing shellac in place) then it seems a short-sighted approach.
That's my take anyway.
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Rex,
I believe Brightspark Magnetos is very forthright regarding why an EasyCap might be a good choice. They recognize other potential causes of failure while noting that capacitors are the most common cause. The text below is clipped from the Brightspark website. My EasyCap made a difference in starting when hot. I would not consider anyone pondering an EasyCap to be shortsighted, or consider Brightspark shortsighted for seeing the need. Let's say you are pondering a complete mag rebuild or just an EasyCap. In my opinion the complete rebuild should have an EasyCap. So, you buy an EasyCap and test it in the mag off the bike using a drill motor to spin it (the mag, not the bike). If there is suddenly very good spark where there hadn't been previously, Bob's your uncle. If not, then, go for the complete rebuild. Bob's still your uncle, just not your rich uncle.
Although many things can be the cause of failure, particularly when hot, capacitors are the commonest cause of 'internal' magneto failure. Despite their modest cost, replacing them in the traditional way requires time and a certain amount of skill. Often, it will only be undertaken in the context of a full overhaul and rewind of the coils.
Because capacitors fail more often than HT windings, our objective with the EasyCap has been to separate capacitor replacement and maintenance from the 'full works' rebuild/rewind, while at the same time empowering the magneto owner to tackle the work required for the initial fitment of one of our EasyCap products.
Richard L.
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Hi all,
Thanks for your advice. I am speaking with Bill at Brightspark to make sure I get it right.
In the meantime, here's a photo of my circuit breaker - does anything look awry? Other than the filth all over the engine.
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..... here's a photo of my circuit breaker - does anything look awry? .....
Spring looks a bit close to the Cam-ring
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I fitted an easy cap last winter, when I bought the bike a couple of years ago it had had a recon magneto but was always a slightly reluctant starter so decided to give one a try. Fitting was nowhere near as hard as I'd imagined and it transformed starting, previously everything had to be just right...choke and advance levers etc...then a mighty leap on the kickstart and it'd start if it felt like it. With the easy cap fitted it changed into a reliable first or second kick starter...money well spent!
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just had my mag rebuilt with a co4 easycap starts first kick
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i decided to have the easy cap fitted; my mag had 20 years since last looked at and i knew i had issues! i sent it of to Paul in Bristol UK recommended by bright spark magnetos he rebuilt it rewound and fitted a co4 easy cap the bike starts first kick with much reduced effort on the kick start ,just come up from the shed feeling quite euphoric the charging system works ! new field coil and armature plus bearings brush's to dynamo and wired up a Wassel regulator to a new wiring loom can the day get any better ? i did remove the fuse before i left the shed you cant be to careful !
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BTH are still making magnetos for the A10 ,they now have electronic advance and retard fitted so you don't need the handle bar lever anymore. They are based in Milton Keynes in England. BTH Magneto components Ltd, 15 Haythorp Close, Downhead Park, Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire, MK159 DD. Email, [email protected] Thhese are brand new items that can be programmed.
Hope this will help someone.
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Hi Speedy,
B.T.H who make the modern ignitions have nothing to do with the original BTH (British Thomson Hueston)
John
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Replacement parts for the "early" brass plate contact breaker assemblies are available but somewhat rare. It seems like parts for the "late" steel plate assemblies are much easier to find, and I've also read that they are easier to adjust. Rather than trying to restore it, I'm wondering if it might be worth the extra cost to replace my worn out, corroded old brass contact breaker assembly with a shiny new steel one. Has anyone had experience with both and have a clear preference?
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Even the later so-called low-inertia steel ones are getting harder for parts, and the quality of replica bits has been up and down. I don't like them as much as the earlier style for the reasons I repeat below . . . originally under Minto's post about 'Points, does this look right? (qv https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=16251.0):
If in your travels you come across a decent brass type, of the earlier generation, I'd grab it.
They are in many people's view 'better' for four reasons:
first, the opening point and spring are the LT earth side so a kiss (of the spring blade againt the cam-ring) doesn't kill the spark;
secondly, the double spring blade of the brass types is gentler in operation than the steel equivalent;
thirdly the points gap stays in adjustment longer (as a rule) for not relying on friction on sliding bits.
Fourthly, quite often, the contacts mate a lot more squarely too.
And a fifth plus point is that you get the option of an auxiliary earth brush on the back face, which can help reduce the dimpling at the firing points of the mag that is caused on the armature drive end brass piece by return current through the main earth brush.
. . .
It's also worth knowing that if you come across a decent BTH anti-clockwise backplate off, say, a KC2, that'll work very nicely too. Main dimensions are the same, the integral keyway that sets the internal timing is in the same place and the design is better too. New complete BTH assemblies can be had (Lindsley again) - but you need a mortgage. A Bosch set will also serve and is well made - but the keyway will probably need suppressing and reforming in the right place, or the camring repositioning.
I can't think of anything that makes me think differently this evening. The thing with the brass item is the state of the pivot post for the opening point, and the hole it goes through. The original pillar was supposed to be 0.185" (memory, which can fade so don't kill me if wrong!) but they're often pretty worn. Kits usd to be available to replace them, which is a fiddly business. Haven't seen the kits for a bit, but a replacement can be made if it must be, a fraction oversize if necessary to reclaim the opening point.
Contacts can be grafted onto the fixed and opening sides if necessary too. Silver solder job. Thus rebuilt, the brass ones can have their life extended indefinitely.
So, I'd try to keep what you have. Dave Lindsley Magnetos in the UK may have some points, certainly worth asking as his stuff usually is decent.
If going 'steel', it is apparently the case that Grove Classics, the UK Velo specialists, have taken on the production and supply of parts and replica points etc. If so, and if the QC is OK, could be an OK option.
In terms of performance, the steel assemblies will often provide a snappier opening and closing of the points which is helpful at very low rpm (due to the heavier spring rate), but overall I prefer the brass version on all the counts mentioned. For what it isn't worth!
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Thanks Bill. I will try refurbishing my brass assembly first. I found a source here in the US with NOS Lucas replacement points for a reasonable cost. My biggest concern right now is getting the old parts out without damaging the backer plate - most of the tiny steel fasteners are completely seized and are not responding to penetrating oil.
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Update - after soaking the assembly in penetrating oil for a few days I was able to remove the old points without any trouble, but the screws holding the leaf springs are not cooperating. To get a better purchase on the screw on the brass post end, I cut the springs. It didn't help. Fortunately, I think I've found a source for NOS replacement springs. Unfortunately the screw is completely destroyed. I will get it out eventually, but can someone inform me on the correct size/pitch/etc. for the replacement?
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6BA, with a head as non-protruding as possible (or it may foul the camring as things go round).
Probably not the easiest screw to find where you are though, unless you can pinch one out of some other defunct period electrical device!
It could be that a similar sized UNF/C or even metric screw could serve, after a quick pass through with a suitable tap. Worst case, if the thing's really messed up when you get the remains out (which may not be that easy either), helicoil inserts exist (I think) . . . but a nadgery old business in that location.
Surprising how much grief a tiny screw can cause, and quite a lot of them refuse to co-operate, just like yours. Ouch.
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Lucas were always fond of the BA threads, used universally in British Electrical and Electronic Industries.
Last time I used 6BA was in a little oddpack from a now defunct model shop. I bet GB has a good few.....
A 50 Watt Soldering Iron is good for adding localised heat in such stubborn cases in preference to an open flame. Hot air gun also worth a try, but shield the fibre points heel on a complete assembly.
Swarfy.
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Ah yes, BA. I'm in the process of re-balancing a Villiers crank (boring holes for lead inserts) and just discovered a crack in one crankcase half, running from the main bearing right across the case to the outside OD. Culprit is the 2BA holes drilled into the main bearing boss to mount the magneto back plate. The bearing housing is barely thicker than the diameter of the screws, leaving bugger-all metal each side. A crack waiting to happen. Now got to machine the crack suitable for welding. "out of the gloom a voice said - smile and be happy, things could be worse. And so I smiled and was happy and behold things did get worse". Or as my son keeps telling me 'given your karma Dad, you must have been a terrible person in a previous life'.
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Thanks for the replies. The 6BA screw will be no problem to get "over here" - "British Tools & Fasteners" in NY has them in a variety of lengths, head styles, and even in stainless. It looks like they carry the matching taps as well.
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I won my battle with the tiny seized fasteners and re-assembled the magneto with the reconditioned points plate and new brushes. I adjusted the points gap and gave the magneto a test spin by hand. To my surprise, the crusty 40-year old spark plugs produced nice fat blue sparks. (New plugs and wires are on order.) Setting the timing is next. There are plenty of resources online explaining how to do it, and most (but not all) clarify that the ignition should be fully advanced for this process. However, all the examples I have found use an automatic advance unit. I have a manual advance, and I'm embarrassed to say I don't know which orientation is "advanced" - with the cable slack and the plunger down, or with the cable taut and the plunger up. Help?
The central screw fixing the points plate is an Allen-head type. Is this original and correct? I'm concerned that it won't make good contact with the cut-out brush, and/or will wear the brush down too quickly. I assume a screw with a smooth head would be more appropriate?
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Advanced is "cable slack plunger down".
Points plate fastener should be bolt which also acts as base plate extractor when fully loosened.
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Tom The correct brass centre bolt for the brass points plate has a domed head to run against the carbon brush. Under the head the bolt has a fine taper to help support and centralise the points plate. Well worth sourcing the correct part. Have a look on the excellent Brightspark Magnetos webbo, Library Section. Later steel point plate uses a different profile steel bolt, having a different length, so don't use the wrong one. As for it extracting the points plate, that's a new one for me, my points usually simply pull off.
Pulling the advance cable moves the cam in the same direction as the points rotate, so retards the ignition. So failed cable allows the return spring and plunger to move the cam to full advance and you can get home to get that sprained ankle fixed.....provided it will start on full advance.
To set it all up, simply slack off the cable, set crank and armature, load the geartrain to take up the backlash, push the magneto drive gear onto the armature taper and hold everything still as the drive gear bolt is tightened.
Swarfy.
Additional. Thanks expressed to Julian for the following pictures of the two types of points plate bolts.
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Brass points top. Steel points bottom.