The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: tlmark on 30.07. 2019 20:28

Title: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: tlmark on 30.07. 2019 20:28
Hi Guys
Any ideas welcome on an issue I'm having. My A10 starts perfectly when cold, but will not once it's hot. Even a one mile ride to the petrol station results in  6-7 kicks to start.
on one occasion I was at a bike show it took me and 2 others 45mins to get it going we couldn't get a spark then it would suddenly spark I've changed plugs cleaned the points checked the earth bush on the mag, I'm wondering if its the condenser? she had a total engine rebuild last year so I don't think it anything mechanical, not least in the motor anyway, it's done about 700 miles since the rebuild.

Adm edit: title edited to include topic subject. & moved to correct board.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: lawnmowerman on 30.07. 2019 22:08
Hi tlmark

Certainly sounds like the condenser to me. You could try cleaning the slip ring before you part with your hard-earned - if it is covered in carbon the brushes may be too soft.

Jim
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: duTch on 30.07. 2019 22:27

 That's exactly the same symptoms I had before having the Maggie overhauled (twice)- bike show and all, for six years I'd ride a mile to the show and spend the last half of the day getting started again to ride the opposite mile back to the 'ranch'...

 First time it was just old and crusty, second time was a dodgy slip-ring had a hole in it earthing to the shaft... *pull hair out*
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: mikeb on 30.07. 2019 22:54
as lawnmower man says, a dodgy old capacitor can do that (did on my b33). i *think* most fail open so adding an easycap at the points (ie, in parallel) *may* buy you some time, but also it may not help at all... luck of the draw.
there will be someone along in a minute to say this is a bad idea etc. its certainly not what you are supposed to do AND it may help for a while.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: metalflake11 on 30.07. 2019 23:04
Classic symptoms of mag capacitor failure..........BUT.... I have had the same symptoms, once when the plug leads have failed, and another time when the metal inside those rubber plug caps had rusted badly. One had actually split.

Start with cheap and easy solutions every time!

The H.T. Lead failure became expensive for me. Mag rebuild and new carb before I changed the leads to fix it!

Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: tlmark on 01.08. 2019 09:58
Hi Guys

Thanks for your comments. It's good to hear my suspicions about the fault seem to be on point.

I'll look a stripping the Mag and checking it over and maybe some new leads to on the safe side.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: lawnmowerman on 01.08. 2019 10:20
Hi tlmark

I am not sure if you have had a K2F apart before but it is not for the faint hearted. The physical stripdown is fairly straightforward but the windings need to be tested also as they may be going open circuit when hot.
I had a professional rewind mine and fit a new condenser and never had a starting problem since.
There are many recommendations for mag rebuilders on the forum.
Apologies if you are familiar with rebuilding mags - just did not want you to end up with a pile of mag bits in a biscuit tin and possibly an even bigger problem ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: Greybeard on 01.08. 2019 10:37
I had a professional rewind mine and fit a new condenser and never had a starting problem since.
Every time my bike easily starts I thank the god of motorcycles that I had my mag professionally overhauled. It was expensive but soooo worth it!  *smile*
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: tlmark on 01.08. 2019 11:57
Nope never even seen a mag until I bought my A10  *eek*
So its all new to me. Sadly I'm also endowed with foolish confidence and always think I can do something.
I'm In two minds everybody keeps telling me to go electronic ignition and wave goodbye to start issues. But I like the fact that it's still all old tech but also it's no fun not being able to ride it anywhere for fear of it not starting.
mag rebuilds can cost a lot too and I have looked at the Thorspark electric system which seems reasonable.  *pull hair out*
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: Shark on 01.08. 2019 13:22
I spent more on a shop mag rebuild than electronic would have cost and I am happy with the mag rebuild? Yes indeed!! Would I do it again?? Nup I would buy the electronic system.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: ironhead on 02.08. 2019 00:01
Nope never even seen a mag until I bought my A10  *eek*
So its all new to me. Sadly I'm also endowed with foolish confidence and always think I can do something.
I'm In two minds everybody keeps telling me to go electronic ignition and wave goodbye to start issues. But I like the fact that it's still all old tech but also it's no fun not being able to ride it anywhere for fear of it not starting.
mag rebuilds can cost a lot too and I have looked at the Thorspark electric system which seems reasonable.  *pull hair out*

G'day TL. A properly sorted maggy will be far more reliable than trusting your power source on the standard dynamo set up. Belt drive, 12v armature, LED lights etc etc may help but IMO I'd sooner ride  across the Nullabor
with a good maggy any day.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: metalflake11 on 02.08. 2019 00:48
Car, bike, truck breaks down they sit at the side of the road. Boats bob about in the sea broken down.

Multi engine aircraft can fly with just one working. If a single engine aircraft breaks down, you are in big trouble!...........They have magneto ignitions!

Says it all!
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: Shark on 02.08. 2019 02:10
Correct Metalflake, but those aircraft you mention have two of everything in the ignition system so if one fails you won't "fall out of the sky", they also have a mandatory "time between overhaul" which should keep them safe and they are only serviced by licensed aircraft engineers. I would not fly in a "lighty" that only had one ignition system with an unknown service history even if that system was a magneto.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: mikeb on 02.08. 2019 06:03
i don't think i'd take a plane if i knew the mag was made by Lucas.
but i do plan to keep mags on my bsas.
there are modern self-generating electronic systems that won't load the dynamo / electrics but hardly cheaper than fixing a mag and probably won't last 60+ years like these have.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: Bsareg on 02.08. 2019 09:33
I wonder how much of the magneto's poor reputation is down to bad rebuilds. I've  just had to rebuild my nephew's professionallly rebuilt mag after it failed. Nothing wrong with the rewind or the condenser used, but very sloppily reassembled, loose bearing, wrong oilseal, incorrect shimming. No mag will last long if the armature is rattling about in oil.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: Butch (cb) on 02.08. 2019 17:22
I had a professional rewind mine and fit a new condenser and never had a starting problem since.
Every time my bike easily starts I thank the god of motorcycles that I had my mag professionally overhauled. It was expensive but soooo worth it!  *smile*

Ditto GB. It just works (that's torn it now mind).
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: tlmark on 10.08. 2019 17:30
Well gents I've fitted the Thorspark electronic ignition system and the quality of the spark
at kick over was very impressive, no trouble see if it was sparking any more  *eek*
starts nice and easy not been able to test the starting once hot yet as I just slapped the clutch cover back on and it's peeing out the oil so ill have to get a new gasket first.

further, update once that's sorted
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: RoyC on 10.08. 2019 17:42
Well gents I've fitted the Thorspark electronic ignition system and the quality of the spark
at kick over was very impressive, no trouble see if it was sparking any more  *eek*
starts nice and easy not been able to test the starting once hot yet as I just slapped the clutch cover back on and it's peeing out the oil so ill have to get a new gasket first.

further, update once that's sorted

Got mine fitted as well.
Do you turn the center thingy clock or anti clockwise to advance the timing ?
It turns clockwise when running.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: tlmark on 11.08. 2019 08:56
Clockwise and then checked it with a strobe light,
My first guess position was showing about 40deg btdc before I got it to about 32-35deg
But it does depend on what way you mag rotates so you have to check that first
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: RoyC on 11.08. 2019 11:00
Clockwise and then checked it with a strobe light,
My first guess position was showing about 40deg btdc before I got it to about 32-35deg
But it does depend on what way you mag rotates so you have to check that first

Thanks for that.
My mag turns clockwise.
Title: Re: Any ideas welcome - starts perfectly when cold, not once it's hot
Post by: tlmark on 23.08. 2019 13:08
Today was the first time I've ridden the Bezza since fitting the Thorspark other than quick tests.
Wow my SR is finally SUPER again  *lol*
It is so much faster than with the mag ever was. clearly, the mag was on its last legs since I've owned the bike

I'd like to thank this forum for letting me know about the thorspark system and the person (sorry I forgot his name) who posted pix of
his fitting and hiding the coils behind ski ramp under the battery. that I copied.