The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: RogerSB on 29.11. 2019 18:37
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Hi Everyone,
Apologies for a long post.
After fitting a Watsonian GP Manx to my A10 and some final adjustments I went for a test ride today (see photo snapped by my wife on my return). I'm pleased to say it handles a lot better - so now I'm happy with my final settings but I have strange things happening after fitting LED bulbs in the sidecar lights. It has me baffled so I'm hoping someone with electrical wiring knowledge will be able to see what is causing this problem - cus I can't! *conf*
I've been running with LEDs in all my lights on the bike for some time with no problem and after fitting the sidecar and connecting it up to my bike's wiring everything worked fine. The problem started when I fitted LEDs to the sidecar lights *pull hair out*.
With the headlight switch off, when I depress the brake pedal the stop lights on bike and sidecar come on but the front sidecar light, speedo light and pilot light also comes on. This doesn't happen with an incandescent bulb fitted to the sidecar front light.
Also with LEDs fitted in both sidecar lights if I change the bike's tail/stop light LED to the normal 21/5W bulb the sidecar's rear light doesn't come on. When I put the LED back in the bike's rear light the sidecar's tail/stop light works again but the problem with the front sidecar light, etc returns.
If I change an LED in bike's rear light or the sidecar's front light for normal incandescent bulbs it all works properly.
This is what I've settle for at a the moment: All LEDs, except for one, which is the sidecar front 21W single contact bulb.
Attached are my wiring diagrams, one for bike and showing the sidecar connector added and another showing the sidecar wiring. (I know I could have spliced the earth and the power cables from the sidecar to the bikes wiring but the separate cables were added as a test to isolate the front and rear sidecar lights to try and resolve what was happening.
Thanks for any help, Roger.
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I'm guessing that this is something to do with the fact they are Light emitting diodes. Diodes (not light emitting) can easily be used to build logic gates and circuits and I bet you have inadvertently constructed one.
If it's possible you might try reversing a bulb or two and see if that makes any difference. the first one I'd try is the tail/stop. If changing any works you are then into trying possible combinations.
Adrian.
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Thanks Adrian, my thoughts have been that there is some form of back tracking through the earth wiring, that's why I rewired to isolate the front and rear sidecar lights. That was before I discovered that if I changed the bike's rear bulb for a 21/5W it threw up a different problem.
The bike's tail/stop LED was from Paul Goff and all the others from Classic Car LEDs and all positive earth.
What seems very strange to me is that the bikes stop light circuit is completely separate from the rest (except for earth).
(Edit) Also my thoughts on back tracking is that LEDs don't need the watts required by incandescent bulbs to work - but how that would cause the problem *dunno*.
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Hi Rodger
I would check the flexy wire connection from the lamp holder to the lamp base, assuming the lamps have rubber mounted bulb holders
With so little current being used by LED lamps all contacts and connections need to be 110%
so check the brass poles on the lighting switch too
John
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Hi Rodger
I would check the flexy wire connection from the lamp holder to the lamp base, assuming the lamps have rubber mounted bulb holders
With so little current being used by LED lamps all contacts and connections need to be 110%
so check the brass poles on the lighting switch too
John
Thanks John, Both sidecar lights are new, front is L691, rear is L692, they have rubber gaskets between the bulb holders and GRP mudguard and both have external earth connectors on the rear of the holders with their own earth cable direct to earth on bike's frame. Connections are good (checked them).
Also bear in mind that the stop light switch when activated by brake pedal doesn't go to the lighting switch - it's straight from battery, through stop light switch and stop filament - that's why I can't understand why it's happening and why it also turns on the speedo and pilot light but at the same time it turns off the front sidecar light?
Next plan is to go and buy a LLB245, 12V, 10W single pole bulb from Halfords tomorrow to replace the 21W in the front sidecar light to keep the watts a bit lower for that light - as it's very bright. 10W should be ok, as it's only on when the headlight switch is on and I'm not out much after dark but the stop lights are on and off all the time and so they eat up the amps. If I, or anyone else can't solve the problem I'll just live with it.
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My first thought would be the earth to rear stop lamp. The next would be the type of LED used. Some use the same Leds but with a internal resistor to dim the light output for rear light which is by-passed when the foot brake is applied for full output. A bit like a ballast resistor coil set up on a car. This could supply just sufficient current to illuminate other Leds but not an incandescent bulb.
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By the way, your outfit is very smart! *smile*
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Roger.. My hunch is that the problem lies with the stop/tail lamp holder. Applying the brake sends power through the brake light, then to earth, but a poor earth on the tail light assembly will mean an easier current path through the tail light bulb circuit, and then back into the rest of the loom. With incandescent bulbs the higher resistance means they don't glow, but with LED's taking a much smaller current to operate, this could explain the phenomenon.
You sometimes see this on cars, where the brake lights come on dimly in time with the flasher. The earth has failed, and somehow the current finds a way to earth via the other bulb filaments in the light cluster. Common problem with trailer boards which have *** poor cheapo electrics in the way of lampholders and the infamous dirt encrusted plug and socket.
See what happens when you isolate the tail light assembly. My bet is it's our old friend a poor earth.... disconnect the lampholder, and try a jump lead from the tail light lampholder assembly to battery earth.
Plan B.... start disconnecting additions, testing as you go until you isolate the component circuit causing the problem.
Swarfy
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I'm with Swarfy on this one - check earths and try connecting temporary earths using flying leads between vital areas. It sounds like an obscure fault but this may give you a clue.
Another thing to remember is that LEDs operate at very small voltages in comparison with filament bulbs.
What you may have is various battery voltages (and different earths) at different points on the loom due to voltage drop in the cables and these differences may allow the LEDs to operate.
I fitted LEDs throughout on my Matchless outfit using double LED bulbs on the bike and chair and had no issues but I did rewire it using 2mm cables and 3mm on the earth and battery runs.
Good luck with it.
Jim
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Thank you all for your help and from some of the comments it does back up my own theory that it's probably somehow earth related due to low current feedback. Swarfy's first para describes exactly what I've been thinking and that is with a 21W incandescent bulb fitted in the sidecar front light and when the brake is applied the speedo and pilot lights can't come on because they don't get enough current. Without it they do come on because they only need a low current.
At the same time I'm trying to get my head around why the sidecar rear light doesn't come on when I swap the bike's rear LED with an incandescent 21/5W bulb and then everything else works as it should. It certainly seems to point to the bike's rear light but it's hard for me to see why. The bike's earth, which is the bolt in the frame under the seat, I know is clean (only cleaned it with emery paper last week) and all other earth cables are connected to it with ring connectors.
The earth cable from the bike's rear light is a separate cable direct from one of the rear light mounting bolts to the bike's earth, via the fuse to the battery terminal. I fitted that earth cable in the summer after painting the rear mudguard, number plate, etc. Before that the rear light just relied on the mounting bolt making an earth to the hole in the number plate. All the wiring on the bike has been replaced with new during the last 2 years and the sidecar lights, wiring and connectors in the past few weeks. It seems my next job is to thoroughly check the bike's rear light connections to eliminate it.
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Elimination, that's the name of the game!
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I fitted LEDs throughout on my Matchless outfit using double LED bulbs on the bike and chair and had no issues but I did rewire it using 2mm cables and 3mm on the earth and battery runs.
Jim
Thanks Jim, that gives me something else to consider, as I rewired my bike with a mix of 17 amp and thinwall 16.5 amp cables but used 21 amp tinned for the sidecar.
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I fitted LEDs throughout on my Matchless outfit using double LED bulbs on the bike and chair and had no issues but I did rewire it using 2mm cables and 3mm on the earth and battery runs.
Jim
Thanks Jim, that gives me something else to consider, as I rewired my bike with a mix of 17 amp and thinwall 16.5 amp cables but used 21 amp tinned for the sidecar.
Hi Roger
The current carrying capacity is certainly ok and it sounds like 1mm and 1.5mm for the chair. The main issue when looking at cable sizes on low voltage DC systems is volt drop which is dependant on resistance of the cable which is in turn directly related to cable size. The current ratings given by suppliers should be taken with a pinch of salt - the cables will carry 17.5A or whatever but will have the effect of heating the cable which is energy lost to the bulbs. You may even find that the energy consumed by the cable is more than the energy used by the LED. Modern thin wall cables have an insulation which is more heat resistant than the old PVC insulation which is probably why it looks like you need smaller cables if you are looking at current carrying capacity alone.
It looks like this will be a tricky one to solve and may involve substitution of cables to prove what is going on, and then a new loom to tidy it up.
Jim
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Thanks again Jim, I bought all my cables from either Holden Vintage & Classic or Vehicle Wiring Products so I'm confident they're of a good quality. My mistake earlier was saying the sidecar wiring is 17 amp, it's actually 21 amp (I stripped it out of a multicore cable I bought but didn't use). Yes, the 16.5 amp thinwall is 1 mm2, 32/0.20 and the 21 amp is 1.5 mm2, 21/0.30. So maybe even a worse scenario to cause voltage drop. At the moment to get me by I've replaced the front 21W sidecar bulb with a 10W just to keep the amps down. Now winter is here I only go on short runs once every couple of weeks or so just to keep the oil circulating - so to speak, so I'm now thinking a complete overhaul of the wiring over the winter may be a good idea.
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If you're running LEDs the current draw is tiny, so wire dia is almost irrelevant. Voltage drop can be caused by too small a wire or one that's too long. With LEDs that's definitely not an issue here. 1A wire would be sifficient. What does matter, though, is connection quality. The lower the current, the greater the risk a connection will fail to provide the necessary path. On the face of it, LEDs are a good idea, but I've seen a number of problems when retro-fitting them to bikes, to the extent I'd not bother. They do seem to be very finicky. Maybe as another noted, it's the electronics involved in the bulb.
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To check if it's rear Led itself, just disconnect the feed to the tail light. If that cures it, a 200v 4 amp diode in series with the tail light feed will permantly fix it. If you're running negative earth, the white band on diode is at tail light end. Positive earth, band will face away from tail light. Providing only Leds are used, the diode won't get warm.
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Nice outfit Roger.
Every light on my combo is led, including headlight.
The only difference from yours, (that I can See) is , I have not used the frame at all for earthing. Every lights ground wire goes back to the + terminal on the battery. Including indicators & spot light.
My rear sidecar light is the same as the bike light and the back plate is earthed the same as your bike light.
What is your sidecar rear light earthed to ?
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Hi Roger,
It must be to do with the internal workings of the double LED tail light?
If the setup is as described earlier with a resistor selecting high or low output it would back feed through the resistor
and feed the other LED's
Before you go ripping out anything try this *bright idea*
Connect a diode into the line to the brake light and another into the tail light line
the diodes can be very small as the current is low
(if no light reverse diode )
John
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What is your sidecar rear light earthed to ?
Hi Roy, thanks, all the sidecar cables run through a flexible convoluted tubing to a superseal connector on the bike (waterproof and easy to pull apart to disconnect). The rear light earth goes from the earth connector on the metal bulb holder (see photo) to earth on the bike's frame and then through a 15 amp fuse to the + battery terminal. Front light does the same.
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Hi Roger,
It must be to do with the internal workings of the double LED tail light?
If the setup is as described earlier with a resistor selecting high or low output it would back feed through the resistor
and feed the other LED's
Before you go ripping out anything try this *bright idea*
Connect a diode into the line to the brake light and another into the tail light line
the diodes can be very small as the current is low
(if no light reverse diode )
John
Thanks John, the bike's rear/stop LED is this one from Paul Goff: 12V Positive earth Pt.no. LO12ST (see photo) and the sidecar's is the one in the other photo. I'm no electrician or mechanic but I think (by looking at the bulbs) the tail and stop lights are separate LEDs (I may well be wrong).
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Never ceases to amaze me how much extra time and hassle we seem to spend with modern technology compared with the old. Maybe that's why most of my vehicles are over 50 yrs old ...
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Thanks John, the bike's rear/stop LED is this one from Paul Goff: 12V Positive earth Pt.no. LO12ST (see photo) and the sidecar's is the one in the other photo. I'm no electrician or mechanic but I think (by looking at the bulbs) the tail and stop lights are separate LEDs (I may well be wrong).
Roger, Looking at my Paul Goff: 12V Positive earth Pt.no. LO12ST tail and stop LED, I think that the whole LED just gets brighter for the stop light.
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Roger, Looking at my Paul Goff: 12V Positive earth Pt.no. LO12ST tail and stop LED, I think that the whole LED just gets brighter for the stop light.
Many thanks Roy, I'm having a bit of a short break at the moment as I've been at it non stop (with my 'ever patient' wife helping me) in a cold garage just about every day for the past month attaching the sidecar, adjusting, testing, re-adjusting, testing, re-adjusting, testing, etc. and so on to get it so I'm happy with its handling. What I'm doing now is making up a dummy set of lights with some spare light units I have and using the LEDs to do some tests, that way I'll avoid having to keep messing around with the actual sidecar lights and its wiring - in the meantime when we get some sunny days *smile* I can still go out for a spin with incandescent bulbs in the sidecar lights.
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I have a couple of similar LED tail lights reach from different sources but not Goffy., and fairly sure it also took me some time to figure which LEDs did what.... but they do the job, so...
...Never ceases to amaze me how much extra time and hassle we seem to spend with modern technology compared with the old. Maybe that's why most of my vehicles are over 50 yrs old .......
Maybe so, but I at least think of it as a learning process
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Never ceases to amaze me how much extra time and hassle we seem to spend with modern technology compared with the old. Maybe that's why most of my vehicles are over 50 yrs old ...
Well, you may have a point there . . . if it's change for change sake. In this case my reason is to keep the amps down with having another two lights to power and even more importantly two 21W stop lights which are on and off constantly. I'm not a racer so the dynamo isn't permanently charging at full whack, although now pulling a sidecar with a passenger will probably get the revs higher. Happy Days!
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I would have normal lights and a BIG! battery in the side car, but that's just me *fight* *bash* *shh*
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Just a bit of an update for anyone interested.
Removed the sidecar mudguard with its cabling, brought it in the warm house to redo the wiring and simplify it by splicing the live and earth cables (see my updated sidecar diagram) with Posi-Lock and Posi-Tap connectors and changed, the now unnecessary, 5 pin Superseal for a 3 pin.
Tested it all for continuity with my multi-meter and everything ok, removed the battery from my bike and brought that into the house and with test leads checked that all the lights (LEDs) worked as they should, everything ok.
Back out to the cold garage to check my bike's wiring. Apart from the Quartz Halogen headlight my A10 has all LED bulbs, including pilot and speedo bulbs, and I went through it systematically checking all the relevant wiring and connectors on the bike. I also checked the correct filament was coming on for the stop light and replaced the 3 pin Superseal connector's other half on the bike. So all the relevant wiring had been checked or redone.
Turned on the light switch - all ok. Pressed down the brake pedal - all ok.
Went into the house for the mudguard and joined the Superseal connector. Carried out the same test as I did for the bike but this time (and as previously) when the brake pedal was depressed the pilot light, speedo light and front sidecar light came on. *problem* Ok, *bright idea* change all the LEDs on bike and sidecar back to the normal incandescent bulbs and retest. The result - everything working fine.
Changed the bulbs again for LEDs - same problem. Swapped around the sidecar's and bike's stop light LEDs - no difference. *pull hair out*
Removed the sidecar's front LED and replaced it with a 10W incandescent bulb. Now everything works as it should. *smiley4*
Now what! I'll tell you - I'm going to leave it at that, with a 10W incandescent bulb in the sidecar's front light, as it hardly gets switched on anyway.
However, if anyone can see anything wrong I'll be very happy. *smile*
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Beats me Roger - more or less the same as I have on my Matchless G12 outfit.
One final thing I would do is connect a long piece of cable to the battery earth terminal. Put the LED back in the chair sidelight and replicate the fault and hold the brake pedal down with a bungee. Then touch the earth cable to various points such as lamp fittings, sidecar chassis etc (which should already earthed via the loom) and see if the errant lights go out, thus indicating a poor earth via the loom.
Another check while it is rigged as above is to remove the lit LED from the speedo light and see what voltage is between the pin and headlamp earth - I would bet that it is a lot less than the battery voltage but enough to trigger the LED.
This is not meant as a criticism, but why do you have a fuse on the battery earth? I had one on my SR but when I rewired it I removed it as I could not see a reason for it.
Jim
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This is not meant as a criticism, but why do you have a fuse on the battery earth? I had one on my SR but when I rewired it I removed it as I could not see a reason for it.
Jim
Er . . . laziness Jim, when replacing that earth cable a year or so ago I thought it would be handy to be able to pull a fuse holder out from under the seat to remove the fuse when working on the electrics (after blowing a fuse a few times when too lazy to remove the seat). The live side being far too short and so it was the easiest to do.
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Only thing I can see is the chair / bike stop/tail wiring appears to be reversed. And the bulbs appear to be different. Or am I misunderstanding the set up?
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Maybe you need to include the wiring for the Speedo and pilot lights- problem may be in there ?
Obviously the only wire to ammeter -ve is from the regulator (I've connected brake and horn to that just because) otherwise it's the kinda shit situation I normally have *pull hair out*
Only thing I can see is the chair / bike stop/tail wiring appears to be reversed. And the bulbs appear to be different. Or am I misunderstanding the set up?
*conf2*
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Only thing I can see is the chair / bike stop/tail wiring appears to be reversed. And the bulbs appear to be different. Or am I misunderstanding the set up?
Thanks, the bike and sidecar wiring to the bulb holders are the same but the manufacturer's of bike and sidecar lights have their own particular wiring colours, i.e. bike has a standard Lucas 564 light with red and black to filament contacts and in this case I added a black for earth because there wasn't one on the light. The sidecar light is a replica Lucas 692 car light with red and green cables to filament contacts and a black earth on bulb holder. I did check which of the colours switched on the different filaments for each light, so although they have different colour cables the stop light wiring (brown cable) from bike does operate the stop light filament in both lights and the brown & green both the tail lights.
The tail/stop light bulbs are both 12V, equivalent 21/5W LEDs, positive earth but from different manufacturer's, as are the speedo and pilot light bulbs.
Thanks Dutch, I have checked the wiring to the pilot and speedo lights and as mentioned I don't have this problem with normal incandescent bulbs, it's only when I fit 'All' LEDs. I remember that Roy mentioned before that he has all LEDs on his A7 and his sidecar and that he doesn't have a problem and that he bought all his bulbs from the same place (Paul Goff). To me it all points to the LEDs and not the wiring either on bike or sidecar and I've been wondering if the LEDs from different sources / manufacturers may somehow be causing the problem. (Edit) So I may replace all the LEDs I have with ones from Goffy and see if that sorts it. If not then the 10W incandescent can stay in the sidecar's front light, which then makes all the other lights behave.
Another strange thing is that if I leave all LEDs in place on bike and sidecar but change the bike's tail/stop bulb (in this case bought from Goffy) for a normal 21/5W incandescent bulb the sidecar's tail/stop LED doesn't come on at all . . . but then all the other lights work as they should. *conf* *pull hair out*
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modern technology - didn't get this problem with acetylene lights. Dunno how you create a stop light, though *doubt*
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Roger, LED'S are semiconductors, and as such don't obey the well known Ohm's law for current, voltage and current. Mixing LED and tungsten bulbs means there is an imbalance of resistance and current through the various parts of the circuits. Doesn't point the finger exactly, but could account for the unexpected and mysterious things happening. With a tungsten bulb in the rear light holder, looks as if all the current is going that way as it must have a lower resistance than those parts of the circuit containing a LED. The internal resistance of different brands of LED's is probably not specified, and may not be standard between brands, causing an imbalance of current and voltage, hence differing or absent light emission.
For the masochists out there, Kirchhoff's Law will occupy a quiet afternoon, calculating current at junctions. But whether it works for modern LED's, we need some more expert insight.
RD....A little Aldis signal lamp?
Swarfy.
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As you say Roger. All my LEDs came from Paul Goff including my Headlight, see below.
Also available with the shallower Wipac Quadoptic H4. This gives more space where there is a headlamp Nacelle & speedo cable in the way, BSA A10 etc. or a mass of wiring inside the headlight shell, Mk111 Commando.
1 x Daylighter H4 LED4K + Wipac 7.0" H4 headlight & adapter
Pt.no. H4LEDWIP £64.95 (Normal price £67.85)
It is not possible to fit the H4LED5K to Wipac Quadoptic H4s. They will however fit any other type of H4 headlight.
http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyWhyNotLEDs.htm
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For the masochists out there, Kirchhoff's Law will occupy a quiet afternoon, calculating current at junctions.
Wow, Kirchhoffs Law! That took me back thirty years to my BT Telecommunications courses. As with almost everything else I learnt back then it was never needed.
I never forgot this rhyme: 'One over two Pi route LC, is the resonant frequency'.
f = 1 / (2π √L C)
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Thank you all for your responses. I think it'll probably stay for ever as one of the worlds biggest mysteries. *conf2*
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If it's any consolation, I hired a trailer with LED lights and they wouldn't work hitched up to my -ve earth Land Rover. However, the trailer board I had to lash on instead with incandescents worked a treat. Couldn't be arsed to puzzle it out.
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If it's any consolation, I hired a trailer with LED lights and they wouldn't work hitched up to my -ve earth Land Rover. However, the trailer board I had to lash on instead with incandescents worked a treat. Couldn't be arsed to puzzle it out.
Yes, it definitely is. *thanks*
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modern technology - didn't get this problem with acetylene lights. Dunno how you create a stop light, though *doubt*
*bright idea* Chuck in an extra lump of carbide at the right time *bright idea*
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Found this about LEDs and their legality and it sort of rings a bell.
https://www.jlclassics.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/jlc?opendocument&part=13
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you've seen the light now roger *whistle*
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Found this about LEDs and their legality and it sort of rings a bell.
https://www.jlclassics.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/jlc?opendocument&part=13
That is a valuable piece of information. Roger, how about making a new topic in electrics just to bring this to everyone's attention?
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Found this about LEDs and their legality and it sort of rings a bell.
https://www.jlclassics.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/jlc?opendocument&part=13
Thanks for that Roger.
Very interesting reading.
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I think RDfella and lawnmowerman are on the money here – either:
- The earth on the tail lamp fitting (or the bulb) is dodgy OR
- The earth on the side car is dodgy OR
- The tail lamp on the sidecar is reversed (stop <–> tail) OR
- The bulb has dodgy internal wiring – ie coming on more brightly for stop rather than having independent LEDs like they should be OR
- Can the bulbs fit the sockets more than one way? (ie rotate)
The wiring gauge has nothing to do with it – as RD says the LED current is minimal. Any reference to Kirchhoff's Laws (which one?) is only going to give you a headache and obscure simplicity.
Swarfy yes they are semiconductors with a certain forward voltage and nominal current and to achieve this have their own regulator (or worse) a fat resistor to limit the current. But lighting is not wired with bulbs in series (or should not be!) so there are no balances or imbalances to speak of.
Legally in NZ its illegal to modify the lighting in any way so putting a 12v 60W halogen in pace of a 6v 35W incandescent would require vehicle re-certifying, as would any LEDs. Ridiculous - just make sure they work well and dip properly and find a sensible vehicle tester.
I may not be helping in saying this Roger, but the solution should be easy once found. Its electricity, not space science or magic (assuming the magic smoke has not come out yet)
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- The earth on the tail lamp fitting (or the bulb) is dodgy OR
- The earth on the side car is dodgy OR
- The tail lamp on the sidecar is reversed (stop <–> tail) OR
- The bulb has dodgy internal wiring – ie coming on more brightly for stop rather than having independent LEDs like they should be OR
- Can the bulbs fit the sockets more than one way? (ie rotate)
Hi Mike, thanks, in answer to the above.
It's a new earth cable from light housing to battery and checked several times during all this.
Same for sidecar.
As previously mentioned I checked both of the rear lights to ensure the correct wiring operates its correct filament both with a multi meter on the connectors in the bulb holders and with 21/5W incandescent bulbs so I could see the filaments.
The red LED tail/stop bulbs don't have visible separate filaments like ordinary bulbs - when I checked they get brighter for the stop light - They were bought from two well known reputable specialist in auto LEDs - and as mentioned earlier changing the bulbs may be worth a try.
No Mike, the bulbs cannot be fitted the wrong way around, having staggered pins.
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I have got 12v pos E, more or less the same set up as you have and yet all my LEDs work correctly,
My ground wire back to the battery is twice as thick as the other wiring.
I am suspecting one of your LEDs is causing it.
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Gday Roger,
I think Charter-Lea was close to the mark.
Some LED car brake/tail lights operate off resistors and use the same LEDs for both brake and tail light.
A small resistance (or none) for the brake input (bright light) A large resistor on the tail light input (dimmer light)
I've been fooling around with a Toyota rear light which is configured like this.
As the bike worked ok before the sidecar was connected I'm willing to bet the sidecar tail/brake light is the culprit.
When the brake is pressed, the sidecar brake light works, but also backfeeds current through the tail light resistor into the system.
This will light the other lights you mentioned.
Incandescent lights have a low resistance. If you put one in the bike brake light or the side car side light it will drop the voltage to the point where anything after the tail light resistor won't work.
Best way to test this is to set the machine up with LEDS and remove the side car tail/ brake light.
When you press the brake only the bike brake light should come on.
Replace the bike tail/brake light with the Classic car LED.
If this LED is the cause the speedo lights etc will light when you press the brake.
Be careful using diodes, they drop your voltage .7 volt and you don't have many to play with
Bit long winded but there you go.
BTW nice rig mate, cheers
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I have got 12v pos E, more or less the same set up as you have and yet all my LEDs work correctly,
My ground wire back to the battery is twice as thick as the other wiring.
I am suspecting one of your LEDs is causing it.
Thanks Roy, last week I rewired the sidecar, for the second time, checking it for good continuity as I went and used 21 amp for the earth and for the live cables 16.5 thinwall. I've checked all the the wiring on my A10 several times with a multi meter and like you I'm thinking the only thing left is some sort of bulb incompatibility so, in the New Year, I'll go down that route and replace the ones I bought from Classic Car LEDs with ones from Paul Goff and hope that works. It won't be the end of the world if it doesn't because with a normal 10W bulb in the front sidecar light everything works ok - but I'd like to get to the bottom of it (curiosity) so I'll give that a go.
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Hi Olev, I was replying to Roy at the same time as you were posting and I think we all came to the same conclusion at the same time.
I think your testing method is spot on (why didn't I think of it *doh* ). Last week (as mentioned previously) as a test, I changed the rear light LEDs around so the one from Classic Car LEDs ended up in the bike and doing that prevented the rear sidecar LED (now Goffy's) from coming on at all but all the others were ok. It was just after I refitted the mudguard and I thought I must have dislodged a connection to that light. I then changed the LEDs back again and the sidecar light came on again. At the time and with all the weird things going on I couldn't understand it and put it down to some sort of problem with the LEDs. What you think is happening would seem to explain it all.
After lunch I'll go out and test it.
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Here’s the latest and I’ll be as brief as I can to tell the whole story.
All LEDs fitted but removed the one in the sidecar from Classic Car LEDs.
Depressed brake pedal and bike's stop light is working fine. Turned on light switch to pilot position – still all fine.
Took the LED out of the sidecar rear light and fitted it to the bike. Same test but this time the pilot and speedo lights came on again – so that pointed to that LED causing the problem.
Put the LED from Goffy back in bike.
I have a spare white double pole LED (so not a red stop light one) and thought I’d try that in place of the one I removed. Result was same old problem back.
Leaving everything as it is I next removed the pilot and speedo LEDs and replaced them with 2.2W incandescent bulbs. Everything worked as it should.
Left the speedo 2.2W bulb in place but put back the pilot light LED (that consumes a very low 0.08Ah but gives a really bright light for daylight running). Everything still working ok.
Next I put back the LED in the speedo. Reverted back to the same old problem.
Put the 2.2W incandescent bulb back in the speedo and everything fine again.
So it seems that the problem lies with the LED bulbs and if I have just one (tiny) standard incandescent bulb in the system all lights work as they should.
At the moment I’ve decided to leave the 2.2W bulb in the speedo as that being the lowest watt incandescent bulb only consumes 0.18Ah when it’s working.
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This has been a very interesting thread. I learnt stuff.
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Here’s the latest and I’ll be as brief as I can to tell the whole story.
All LEDs fitted but removed the one in the sidecar from Classic Car LEDs.
Depressed brake pedal and bike's stop light is working fine. Turned on light switch to pilot position – still all fine.
Took the LED out of the sidecar rear light and fitted it to the bike. Same test but this time the pilot and speedo lights came on again – so that pointed to that LED causing the problem.
Put the LED from Goffy back in bike.
I have a spare white double pole LED (so not a red stop light one) and thought I’d try that in place of the one I removed. Result was same old problem back.
Leaving everything as it is I next removed the pilot and speedo LEDs and replaced them with 2.2W incandescent bulbs. Everything worked as it should.
Left the speedo 2.2W bulb in place but put back the pilot light LED (that consumes a very low 0.08Ah but gives a really bright light for daylight running). Everything still working ok.
Next I put back the LED in the speedo. Reverted back to the same old problem.
Put the 2.2W incandescent bulb back in the speedo and everything fine again.
So it seems that the problem lies with the LED bulbs and if I have just one (tiny) standard incandescent bulb in the system all lights work as they should.
At the moment I’ve decided to leave the 2.2W bulb in the speedo as that being the lowest watt incandescent bulb only consumes 0.18Ah when it’s working.
This is such a long thread I apologise if I am repeating what someone else has said, but here’s a theory, I’ve read somewhere that some “dual filament” stop light LED bulbs light up a proportion of diodes in the “array” for the rear light and all of the Diodes for the stop light, this introduces the possibility of a “leakage” path for current to flow into the light circuit from the brake light circuit. I guess a better design would have separate LED arrays for stop and tail lights.
A test for this would to disconnect the wire to the tail light and see if the problem of the speedo light coming on goes away. The “leakage” might only be enough to power up an LED, not a normal bulb, and this would explain why the issues goes away when the speedo bulb is non LED, but the leakage is still actually happening (even with the lights off).
If this is actually happening the solution would be a different (better) Tail/stop LED, or a separate LED for stop and tail, and new bulb holders.
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KiwiGF, your absolutely right. I've checked my tail/stop lights and they do just get brighter for the stop light. Initially I thought they may have used separate diodes (see the photos) but Roy reckoned his were not so I checked mine working and and I'm pretty sure he's spot on.
No doubt that it's some sort of back feed through the design of the bulbs, probably via earth and, as you surmise, the 2.2W speedo bulb is enough to stop it from causing the strange behavior. I intend to makie up a complete set from Paul Goff (as Roy did) and hope the bulb designs are compatible. My bike's tail/stop LED was from Paul Goff and that one didn't cause the problem when I conducted the test suggested by Olev but the other (from sidecar) tail/stop LED did when I fitted it to the bike as a test.
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KiwiGF, your absolutely right. I've checked my tail/stop lights and they do just get brighter for the stop light. Initially I thought they may have used separate diodes (see the photos) but Roy reckoned his were not so I checked mine working and and I'm pretty sure he's spot on.
No doubt that it's some sort of back feed through the design of the bulbs, probably via earth and, as you surmise, the 2.2W speedo bulb is enough to stop it from causing the strange behavior. I intend to makie up a complete set from Paul Goff (as Roy did) and hope the bulb designs are compatible. My bike's tail/stop LED was from Paul Goff and that one didn't cause the problem when I conducted the test suggested by Olev but the other (from sidecar) tail/stop LED did when I fitted it to the bike as a test.
I’m glad it helped, but one thing, I’m not suggesting the leakage from the stop light circuit occurs to earth, but into the lighting circuit, although it may only be the speedo bulb lighting up when it shouldn’t I’m suggesting all the bulbs in the lighting circuit (that are switched “on” by default) are getting some leakage current from the stoplight LED/circuit, on most bikes the default will be just the pilot light and speedo, and for those without a pilot light the dip or main, instead of the pilot light.
As before disconnect the wire feeding power to the tail light and the leakage into the lighting circuit would stop, if my theory is correct.
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As before disconnect the wire feeding power to the tail light and the leakage into the lighting circuit would stop, if my theory is correct.
Thanks KiwiGF, I'll give it a try today.
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Just carried out the test that KiwiGF suggested and he’s definitely on the right track but the electrickery still won’t give up.
I put the LED back in the speedo again, disconnected the live feed to the sidecar tail light and kept the stop light cable connected (just in case anybody queries it, they are in separate bullet connectors).
Turned the pilot light on, speedo and bike’s tail light on and no sidecar lights - so that’s good.
Turned the light switch off and pressed the brake pedal, both stop lights came on but no pilot or speedo light *yeah* that’s it! I thought . . . then I noticed the front sidecar light was also on. *sad2*
Next I disconnected the bike’s tail light (so both tail lights now disconnected). Result was the same as before (apart from, of course, the bike’s tail light).
So KiwiGF is right in his thinking but even with the live cables to the tail lights disconnected somehow there's enough current getting to the front sidecar light by operation of the stop lights.
I've put the 2.2W incandescent bulb back in the speedo and its now giving off its heart warming, dim, warm glow and all the horrid LEDs are happy again. *smile*
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So, is that how things will remain?
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So, is that how things will remain?
Yes, until they change. *smile*
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So, is that how things will remain?
I suppose so Neil, at least until after the New Year when Paul Goff has all the bulbs back in stock I'd like to try.
Took the outfit out for a run this afternoon for a few miles. Mainly to test it two up, first with my wife as pillion and then back with her in the sidecar. She said she preferred the sidecar but only because she didn't like the feel of the bike going around corners with a sidecar attached, i.e. not leaning into a corner as she's used to it doing.
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So, is that how things will remain?
I suppose so Neil, at least until after the New Year when Paul Goff has all the bulbs I'd like to try back in stock.
Took the outfit out for a run this afternoon for a few miles. Mainly to test it two up, first with my wife as pillion and then back with her in the sidecar. She said she preferred the sidecar but only because she didn't like the feel of the bike going around corners with a sidecar attached, i.e. not leaning into a corner as she's used to it doing.
It’s an annoying problem, and probably not worth pursuing further, however when the lighting circuit is “all led” then it’s possibly that the lighting circuit wiring can “float” around voltage wise, as there is effectively nothing to prevent that happening, even a weak magnetic force near a wire in the lighting circuit could cause a voltage to occur in the lighting circuit and it appears have enough power to operate an LED, putting an incandescent bulb effectively “shorts” the lighting circuit to earth (and prevents it “floating” around) as its resistance is quite low when it’s not getting enough current to get hot.
It’s odd the brake light causes a “stray” voltage in the lighting circuit, I guess the tail and brake wires run close together and so a magnetic field could be causing the issue, but conversely the current (hence magnetic field) is minimal in the brake circuit when it is an LED *dunno*.
The test for that theory, is to put an incandescent bulb in the brake light (so you get a big current in the stop light wiring) then disconnect the tail light (to ensure the remaining bulbs in lighting circuit are “all LED”) and see if any LEDs light up. If one does, the problem could have two causes!
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Thanks KiwiGF, much appreciated. As you say it's probably not worth pursuing any further, being nothing drastic. It's more curiosity than anything else now but I will try a different set of sidecar bulbs in the New Year.
My total watts with a 12V 35/35 Quartz Halogen headlight, LED sidecar front light and the 2 LED stop lights all working at the same time (according to my maths) adds up to about 50 watts and with the DVR2 and dynamo belt to help it the 6V E3L should cope well enough. I've noticed the DVR2 cuts in around 40 mph in top.
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Just an update for anyone that may be interested, took the outfit for a good test run this afternoon (to the pasty shop *smile* and back) with my wife in the sidecar.
During the past weeks I've ended up making even more adjustments to the alignment. I've done this about a dozen times now! I now have 1" toe-in and 1/2" lean out (which increases by 1/8" with rider seated). Now I can say the handling is good and I don't think I could improve on it. Steering is now light, it doesn't pull excessively to either left or right when accelerating or braking and now I've screwed the damper down another turn the handlebar shake is now minimal when going over bumps, sunken manhole covers, etc. but no shake otherwise, so now I feel that perseverance has paid off.
My LED bulbs 'doing very strange things' problem, previously discussed, is now solved with a stop tail light bulb for the sidecar (so same as the bike's) and a pilot light bulb from Goffy.
I've also fitted indicators with orange LED bulbs (bought from Goffy at the Bristol Classic Bike show) and fitted a green Lucas indicator warning light in the nacelle just in front of the speedo and fitted that with a green LED bulb. So now bike and sidecar have all LEDs, except the headlight which I'll keep as British Pre Focus Quartz Halogen 35/35W. Took a lot to convince myself to drill the 1/2" hole in the nacelle for the warning light though :-\. I had to fit what Goffy calls a 'tweaker' between the warning light and the indicator live cables. This just holds diodes that prevents current back feed and causing problems.
The latest improvement, completed only this morning and of which I'm particularly happy with, is some semi-western handlebars. As I had to fit an indicator switch, with grip, levers and mirrors I'd run out of straight bar and had to fit the switch just after the bend on the standard bars, which wasn't particularly easy or safe to operate. The bars I eventually settled on, after a lot of deliberation, are actually Norton ones (pt no 06-1046) by LF Harris, with a width of 32", a rise of 4 3/4" and pull back of 7" and a very useful 10" of straight bar at each end, so the indicator switch now sits between the lever and the mirror clamp and is easily reachable with my forefinger to move the knob for right indicators or my thumb for left indicators without having to take my hand of the grip. The extra 5" length of the bars also definitely helps with the steering and gives me a more upright and relaxed riding position.
So happy days.
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Hi Roger
Glad you got the alignment right - makes such a difference to the handling.
When I set up my G12 / Monza I used two ladder sections on blocks bungeed to the bike and sidecar wheels with spacers to compensate for the narrower front wheel. Before making final adjustments I sat on the bike and put a couple of bags of sand in the chair and then got someone to strap the forks, swinging arm and sidecar suspension down to the working level.
The alignment looks odd when nobody is sat on the bike but the outfit handles perfectly. I never carry passengers so I keep the bags of sand in the sidecar to help on left handers.
Jim