The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: Billybream on 20.04. 2024 06:16
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Hi.
Fitted new Yuasa Y4-6 6v 4ah valve regulated sealed lead-acid battery, measured 6.6 v prior to fitting, connected up to bike, lights came on great, running full LED lighting set up via DVR2. After starting bike and making a few fueling adjustments, and running for about 10 minutes, switched lights on great, showing charge on ammeter, switched bike off and lights also died. Am I just unlucky and have a dud battery or am I missing something by using these compact batteries with my system. I rang with similar Lucas type battery last year and after winter layup the battery would not hold charge via trickle battery charger so replacement fitted, these are low cost items £10.00.
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Could it be overcharging? Many years ago with an A65 I took the battery off and fitted a huge capacitor. It worked surprisingly well. Are you running the mag still, if so the battery is not doing much.
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Older style lead acid batteries seem to be poor quality these days, so when I ran them (I use sealed gel mat batteries now) I would be renewing every Springtime.
At least with sealed batteries (which aren't much dearer than L-A batteries) you don't get acid sprayed over the silencer, tyre and rear mudguard.
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Older style lead acid batteries seem to be poor quality these days, so when I ran them (I use sealed gel mat batteries now) I would be renewing every Springtime.
At least with sealed batteries (which aren't much dearer than L-A batteries) you don't get acid sprayed over the silencer, tyre and rear mudguard.
Oh my God have I had problems like these. *pull hair out* *pull hair out* *pull hair out* Originally had a lead-acid which was duff and boiled over stripping the chrome off one of the silencers. *problem* *problem* *angry* *angry* Went for AGM type, ended up with two of these being duff which were returned - third one lasted a few years on and off (if you forgive the pun). *roll* *dunno* It has recently failed completely with a charge error saying the charger voltage doesn't match the battery voltage and no power readings at all at the poles. Replaced with a 6v 8ah battery - everything works and appears to show charge at the ammeter. I'm still running the maggie, so will see how things go. Don't think it's overcharging as the last AGM lasted a good while over some big rides out. These bikes seem very sensitive when the battery is failing. I suppose that the ammeter will not record incoming and outgoing charge to the battery if it is completely dead!
One reason for early failure may be vibration. Before Bergs rebuilt my motor, it was like riding a pneumatic drill, now it's nice and smooth. *good3* *good3* *beer* *beer* *beer*
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I use Motobatt brand in old bikes, but with a one or two year life expectation. They don’t seem to like the lucas charging system either with or without Dvr2, or maybe its the vibes *dunno*. They will carry on well after the fully charged voltage indicates they are ferked though, which is not a problem if you are not relying on them for ignition. Ordinary lead acid I have found to be a waste of money.
In my modern bikes (electric start obviously, and 3x the cost for the battery) my expectations is much longer, from memory the last Motobatt battery in my ktm lasted 6 years, goldwing 8 years.
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This has reminded me, when I had the Harley I bought a flash AGM "premium" battery and it lasted about a week longer than the warranty. Got replaced by a bargain job that lasted just the same. I've just fitted a total loss system with a LiPo on anther bike, I don't like total loss but the bike is modified and there's no where for the dynamo. With LEDs I'm hoping for 2 hours lights, ign is mag.
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In my A10 from 30-12-17 to 15-6-22 I used a Motobatt MB9U, AGM, 11Ah, CCA 140, L: 136mm x W: 76mm x H: 133/158mm. 2 yr guarantee.
Since 15-6-22 I'm using a Powerline YB9-B, AGM, 12V, 9Ah, CCA 95, L: 136, W: 76, H: 139. 1 yr guarantee.
I found both good. The Motobatt started to loose its charge fairly quickly at the end, but lasted 5 1/2 years.
I also have 6v Powerline in my Velocette LE and it amazes me how minute voltage is lost over a period of weeks without any use. Strangely the 12v one in my A10 loses more - but still good.
I opted for the Powerline because I prefer the nut and bolt connection arrangement, as opposed to the connectors on the Motobatt.
Rog
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I have a cheap sealed 4.5 AH battery on my Flash with an RB 107 regulator.
It has been in service for a number of years and holds a charge even though the bike sees little use these days.
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Roger
I see in your photos that you have a bolt in the frame just behind the tank. I was wondering what the hole was for. Can you enlighten me with its function.
When to took the seat off for the service I was dismayed that the battery had shook loose throwing one of the bolts. I have returned it lovingly wrapped in packaging. Amy bright ideas of how to stop the battery vibrating free would welcome.
John
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I long abandoned the metal strap after losing the whole lot after a long ride and finding the battery had bounced all over the place. Now I use an old, cut down leather belt which is threaded through the bottom slots of the battery tray. After punching out a couple more holes on the belt, I put a piece of foam rubber on top of the rubber tray, duck tape some 90 degree cardboard padding to the battery, put an old piece of narrow car radiator pipe on top of the battery and tighten the belt as much as I possible can.
The foam rubber and rubber tray help the battery to not slip, the radiator pipe on top helps to prevent against upward movement and vibration, and the cardboard padding is there just to protect the battery casing in the event it does slip (which it never has). I really like the belt arrangement, as you can easily adjust it to any size of battery.
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Offcuts of expanded polystyrene packaging should do for now. Builders' skip a good source if you have none to hand. Use to build a battery box, easy duck tape codge. Needs to be firm enough for the battery straps to hold it nice and tight. This will also cushion the battery from vibration.
Swarfy.
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Roger
I see in your photos that you have a bolt in the frame just behind the tank. I was wondering what the hole was for. Can you enlighten me with its function.
Hi John, Its a BSA built-in sidecar mounting point. It's shaped with two flat sides so the fitting that goes in it can't turn. I just bolted the penny washer in place to cover it - I don't know why - one of the silly things I seem to do. Here's a picture of the fitting that fits in the hole. The extension with a hole on the end is to attach a sidecar top rear arm. Even Ben (at Watsonian Sidecars) didn't know what the hole was for when I was looking around for the correct fitting and I showed him a photo of it.
As for securing battery: I use the original metal strap that clips into the two slots, front and rear, at the bottom.
I place something between it and the top of the battery simply to prevent damage to the battery casing when it's tightened down. Personally I've not had a problem with any battery I've used moving . . . not that I've noticed anyway.
(Edit): Maybe size of battery makes a difference *dunno2*.
Rog.
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Here's the built-in bottom rear sidecar mounting.
Rog.
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Fitted new replacement 6vdc 4ah gel type battery, fully charged, lights on, all LED, start engine ammeter almost off the + scale, swith off , return to bike after an 1hr, switch on lights, and battery is completely flat, start engine and at 2000rpm, ammeter is again off the + scale. Running belt drive dynamo and DV2R reg, any idea,s, I suspect DV2R is cooked
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Fitted new replacement 6vdc 4ah gel type battery, fully charged, lights on, all LED, start engine ammeter almost off the + scale, swith off , return to bike after an 1hr, switch on lights, and battery is completely flat, start engine and at 2000rpm, ammeter is again off the + scale. Running belt drive dynamo and DV2R reg, any idea,s, I suspect DV2R is cooked
I would definitely look to that as your issue! Having said that, new batteries can be duff too and cause untold issues (because of the assumption that being new, they should work fine). I've had about four duff batteries from new, the last one lasted several years with no issues.
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This is the 2nd new battery in a week, something must be draining the battery, although lights are off, and no discharge shown on ammeter, black magic maybe
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i know nothing apart from when i put a low amp hour battery on mine something happened to the dvr2 , since upping the ah from 3 to i think it is 9 now no problems in years
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i know nothing apart from when i put a low amp hour battery on mine something happened to the dvr2 , since upping the ah from 3 to i think it is 9 now no problems in years
Mine was 13ah and is now 8ah (because I had it lying around), no issues so far.
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There must be a wiring fault or a short somewhere. A test meter or bulb from the earth side of a charged battery to the earth connection on the loom or frame should show no current with everything turned off. If you do find a leak, then it's a case of searching until something is disconnected or moved that stops the drain. I'd suspect the DV2R. Charge the battery off the bike, leave and see if it holds charge. The high rate of charge is not what you would expect. A check of the wiring may reveal a mistake in the connections.
Swarfy.
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Thanks Swarfcut, yes the battery is off and on charge now, been for a ride this morning with out battery, rode with lights on and showing healthy charge on ammeter. Surprised if there is a wiring fault as its been untouched for years, but will test later, thanks for your help and advice. Sent note to Dynamo Regulators for advice also, although the company has changed hands.
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Normal ammeter wiring is such that the unit only measures current flow to (Charge) or from (Discharge) the battery. The fact that riding without a battery but lights on still shows a reading is a puzzle, as the ammeter must be indicating current flow through the lighting circuit.
With headlights, rear light, horn and brake on, engine off, that is the maximum discharge current from battery that the ammeter should show. Still suspect you have a wiring or component fault somewhere.
Swarfy.
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Hi Swarfcut, got response from new owner of Dynamo Regulators on a Sunday, he,s puzzled and wants the unit back to test, so off the bike and packed up ready to go. Elimination should
sort my issue out, battery still so far holding charge on bench.
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Swarfy, horn and brake light don't go through the ammeter. As you say, with the battery removed, the ammeter shouldn't show any charge or discharge. There is a significant wiring fault. Time to dig out the wiring diagram!
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Blame the booze. Black Sheep is correct. In the usual set up horn and brake light don't go through the ammeter. But with this bike the electrics are certainly behaving strangely, defying convention. See how long the battery holds charge in isolation. If it seems OK, worth refitting the charged battery now the regulator is off, see what happens.
Swarfy.
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This is where I went wrong with having a few duff (new) batteries. I thought that if the battery was completely dead, it still should show an 'attempted' charge to the battery. Once I understood that the ammeter ONLY dealt with current to and from the battery - all made sense. With a dead battery, the battery wouldn't show charge or discharge, but the electrics would work direct from the dynamo. I have also run a couple of earths around the bike that I probably didn't need when trying to fix/understand the problems - I am no sparky!
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Received the DVR2 back from Dynamo Regulators, tested all ok, and returned FOC, excellent service. The battery is still holding charge, so must be wiring issue, will start with brake light and horn wiring. I have a digital meter and now have to learn how to check for current drain. One thing I did notice when originally connecting the battery, was a small spark, not sure which order I connected the terminals.
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Hi Billy,
The spark indicates that current is flowing if connected,
connect a bulb between the battery and its lead, bulb will light or glow,
start disconnecting components until the light goes out, that will indicate the faulty component
John
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Back from hols and had a session tracing the short on my bike, working through checking individual components when I removed the stop light switch, cleaned it up and fitted new rubber boot, then set about setting up the brake light operation with double filament bulb, after a few minutes I must have accidentally touched the DV2R which was red hot. Looking at the wiring diagram the only path through is via the ammeter, could this be the short I,m looking for? . Have not switched the lights on or even ran the engine during this session.
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I'm no good at electrics but, obviously, there must be a path back to the DVR2 from the battery (being the only source of power to make the DVR2 hot and especially as the engine is not running to create power via the dynamo). This is a weird problem and has to be either a short circuit or something has been wired up incorrectly. Why would the battery feed back through the DVR2??
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The DVR2 will have a very small reverse current - milliamps - and they say it will drain a battery in a few months. This will not heat it up, but if the electronic component has failed and is allowing a bigger reverse current it will get very hot and flatten the battery. I think you need to get the DVR2 on the bench and check its reverse resistance. Electronic components do fail, even quality ones, so it is possible.
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The DVR2 will have a very small reverse current - milliamps - and they say it will drain a battery in a few months. This will not heat it up, but if the electronic component has failed and is allowing a bigger reverse current it will get very hot and flatten the battery. I think you need to get the DVR2 on the bench and check its reverse resistance. Electronic components do fail, even quality ones, so it is possible.
This seems to fit. I'm sure BB said his battery was draining very quickly. Will look back over the posts.
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The DV2R has been back to the manufacturer for test and was tested all ok
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OK that's done for my theory. The DVR2 can only get hot if its flowing current when the dynamo is stationary and its designed not to do that. Since the reverse current circuit is a diode I think the next question is the polarity of the DVR2 - pos or neg earth (they do 2 versions), the polarity of the battery and the polarity of the dynamo. I run my A10 neg earth with a neg earth DVR2, battery neg to earth and a dynamo flashed and checked for correct polarity on the bench and its all fine, but a neg earth Wassel unit did not work.
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It's all on positive earth, no problems until fire up after winter layup up, no wiring changes, total puzzle to me, could the ammeter be shorting out and giving power to DV2R.
Will continue testing individual components, think I have a spare ammeter.
The petrol tank was taken off during winter lay up, might have to remove and check for potential damaged wiring if nothing else tests faulty.
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Hmmm. Thinking out loud here:
The DVR2 supplies current to the field winding so its worth checking whether that's got shorted under the tank.
Dynamo brushes can stick but I can't see that causing this problem, have a look under the end cover and see if everything is where it should be. The brush cables run very close to the cover, its a bit tight so one could be earthing, but one is earthed anyway.
Not much to go wrong with an ammeter as its insulated from the headlight and has a very low resistance anyway.
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Thanks Rob for your help, the Dynamo has not be disturbed, but will check out the connections and brushes, if that fails will take the tank off and check wiring
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Checked out dynamo with end cover off and all appears OK with wiring and brushes, decided to disconnect yellow wire to F connection at DV2R and reconnected fully charged battery, no heat build up to DV2R and no high discharge on ammeter, so now assume must be short somewhere along the run of this wire from the dynamo, will now connect temporary connection and retest
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Makes sense as I think its the only wire that could pull a lot of current off the DVR2. It runs under the top tube then down the front, it could be rubbing on the engine steady or where it goes through the hole in the back of the tool box. I'd start with those two first.
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Still in trouble with short, just about replaced or resoldered all connections, checked continuity on most wires. Used a bulb wired into battery to check for short, only suspect was fuse on earth from battery to frame, removed fuse and bulb went out, decided to wire out the fuse but bulb still went out, everything seems to work but obviously battery dies very quickly.
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Still in trouble with short, just about replaced or resoldered all connections, checked continuity on most wires. Used a bulb wired into battery to check for short, only suspect was fuse on earth from battery to frame, removed fuse and bulb went out, decided to wire out the fuse but bulb still went out, everything seems to work but obviously battery dies very quickly.
*pull hair out* *pull hair out* *pull hair out*
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When you reconnected the field wire and the ampmeter showed a discharge, was the engine running ? If not, surely the field should only be energised when the engine is running. When the engine is stopped all current to the field is removed.
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From memory it can be quite tricky to make sure headlight switch connections dont contact the nacelle/shell, possibly ammeter connections also, worth a look anyway.
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What a plonker, having spent hours tracing my short, resoldering connections, finally discovered the problem, I had a pigy back connector on the earth terminal on the battery but mistakely reconnected the earth lead to the DV2R to power feed on the battery. No more sparks when connecting up the battery, everything now works fine, thanks to everybody who offered advice.
Another slight issue the tickler on my fairly new Amal Monobloc is very slow to exit fuel, seems to take ages holding the button down before fuel wets my finger?
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Well sussed BB!!
As for the tickler, I also had a new carb and it can take a bit of time for fuel to come through, especially if it's been standing a while. I'd investigate further only if running is affected.
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At least you found it. I know how easy these things are, I hit a bump towing and one rear light went out. Next day I found a bullet connector un-plugged (is a 60 year old Army trailer) so I plugged it back where "it obviously went". Well it didn't and 2 hours later after downloading the whole wring diagram and lying under the trailer with a multi-meter I finally got it fixed. I plugged one wire in wrong but when I "corrected" my mistake I actually moved a different wire so I had 2 faults, after that it was hopeless. *problem*
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What a plonker, having spent hours tracing my short, resoldering connections, finally discovered the problem, I had a pigy back connector on the earth terminal on the battery but mistakely reconnected the earth lead to the DV2R to power feed on the battery. No more sparks when connecting up the battery, everything now works fine, thanks to everybody who offered advice.
Another slight issue the tickler on my fairly new Amal Monobloc is very slow to exit fuel, seems to take ages holding the button down before fuel wets my finger?
Tickler doubles as a float chamber vent (air has to come out to let fuel in), just a thought but if you push the tickler all the way down, maybe the vent can’t do its job?
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As we've had Monoblocs for many decades if holding down the tickler was an issue then it would be widely known by now.
Newer versions of the Mono seem to have shorter tickler "shafts" than older ones, so it will appear that tickling takes longer.
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As we've had Monoblocs for many decades if holding down the tickler was an issue then it would be widely known by now.
Newer versions of the Mono seem to have shorter tickler "shafts" than older ones, so it will appear that tickling takes longer.
I could be very naughty here and say it's true that shorter tickler shafts makes for longer, successful, tickling *eek* *eek* *eek*
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All the tickler does is hold the float down against its buoyancy so the float valve stays open and the flat bowl over fills and fuel comes out the pilot and needle jets. If the tickler only just reaches the float it will barely open the float valve. What it can also do is show up a blocked float valve, top hat gauze or fuel tap.