The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: Bustersbike on 15.05. 2012 23:03
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Hi folks,
I've got a question that hopefully somebody can help with please...
('54 BSA A10 Golden Flash)
In the photo is what's on (or off in this case) the bike just now. It's a lucas electronic ignition set up fur 12v. What I'd like to do is get myself a Boyer set up but not sure what to go for??
There isn't a magneto on it but has been replaced with a reluctor unit (?), there is meant to be a battery as well. I would like to replace the coils with one of the single ones (as in the Boyer kits) so I can mount it under the tank somewheres.
Is there a kit that would get rid of the battery? Not realy a prob if not.
Anybody any ideas and can ye make the answers simple please... Cheers muchly;):D
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Don't replace a Lucas RITA with a Boyer.
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Don't replace a Lucas RITA with a Boyer.
Hi TT, is there any reason why not to? i'm not the best when it comes tae this kind of stuff TBH. Cheers for the reply:)
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Consider a BTH magneto;
Electronic, no battery required, mounts in place of the K2F, and only 2 small coils to tuck away.
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn82%2Forabanda%2Fth_P1030792.jpg&hash=24bfe5e349deb829bd162eb377bbc83d5088d1bb) (http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/orabanda/?action=view¤t=P1030792.jpg)
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn82%2Forabanda%2Fth_P1030037.jpg&hash=74c55827306529ce0fef63c0ef91349b673f7079) (http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/orabanda/?action=view¤t=P1030037.jpg)
Check out their website for more info.
Richard
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RITA works better than Boyer and even made it onto factory bikes.
Your best choices are: get the RITA working or use a magneto.
Attempting to power a Boyer with a dynamo will make you angry.
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Consider a BTH magneto;
Electronic, no battery required, mounts in place of the K2F, and only 2 small coils to tuck away.
Thanks for that Richard, I'll check that out:)
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Check out the BTH price at an early stage.
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RITA works better than Boyer and even made it onto factory bikes.
Your best choices are: get the RITA working or use a magneto.
Attempting to power a Boyer with a dynamo will make you angry.
Cheers again TT *smile*
Hmmmm... time for a rethink maybe...
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Check out the BTH price at an early stage.
Are they scary?
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Ah'm keen... but not that keen!! *eek* *eek* *smile*
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The cost in Oz is just over $800 shipped, which compares to about $600 to buy a K2F, and then having it re-conditioned.
Built-in advance, and both cylinders fire exactly 180 degrees apart!
No battery
Mounting holes slotted, so timing can be altered whilst engine runs.
http://bt-h.biz/twin_mag.htm
Flange Mounted Twin Cylinder FM2R: £500.00 + VAT
Richard
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It does look a great piece of kit Richard, no doubts about it.... but a wee bit out of my price range at the moment.
Thanks for letting me know about it tho';):D
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I agree, Thanks Richard price is ok if it's said fast with no conversion, but I've bookmarked it for future reference.
Cheers duTch
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Does your present Lucas system give a spark?
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I restore K2F's (in my sleep!) so I'm being honest declaring an interest up front. Having said that, I'm not touting for work, I've got plenty of that! Most K2F's go for about £60 - £100 on ebay. There's no point paying any more because you're going to have to refurbish it anyway which may cost up to £150. You could even buy a refurbished one outright for less than £300. Once restored properly you shouldn't need to touch it. I'm sure a new BTH is a great bit of kit and it doesn't need a battery (just like a K2F!). Fitting any other sort of electronic ignition requires a battery (in most cases 12v) so, instead of worrying about your magneto, you worry about your dynamo! I wouldn't dream of fitting anything other than a restored magneto which should be a cost-effective, stand alone, reliable ignition system. After fitting a good magneto you can sell all that other oversophisticated, fangled, 21st century, heap of wires and electronic wizardry (which has no place on a classic bike), and maybe make a few quid!
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While these prices seem scary you need to look at them in the proper light.
A maggy, reconditioned on your bike will cost £ 300 to £ 500.
This will be the last time you spend money on this unit till the points need replacing and the unit can be expected to run at least another 20 years.
At the rate of 1 ride a month (12 per year ) over 20 years it works out to be £ 1.20 to £ 3 per ride which is about 1/2 the price of a coffee.
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Does your present Lucas system give a spark?
I'm not sure just now TT. it's been a whiles (20 years) since the bike was last running!! From what I can remember, I was coming home one miserable night and there was a blue flash and the bike died. Changed the fuse but still nothing. Took it off the road to change quite a few things, moved house a couple of times and now I'm finally getting round tae sorting it out. The engine is pretty much standard apart from a later (alloy) head and the 12v electronic ignition.
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Thanks for the replies beezermacc and Trevor *smiley4*
my funds are a bit low just now guys and can't really afford a new/recon mag so was going for the cheaper option;)
There maybe nothing wrong with the kit I have on but thought the Boyer stuff was better from what I heard.
Half the problem I was having before was when the weather was damp / wet and used the lights, the engine would cut out. After finding that whoever built the bike before had run the rear light cable under the seat and it wore through and shorted out! Solved that problem and was fine for a whiles until the wiring running through the bars had cracked and shorted out! Sorted that then as said above, there was a blue flash one night and the bike died.
As you might gather the bike isn't exactly standard! It's going through some major changes just now and trying to get a few things gathered up and seeking some advice for the standard stuff.
Thanks again;):D
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I know I asked about not having a battery, that has possibly gone by the way side now. Having read some posts about not using a gel battery, I take it that means I couldn't use one with a mag? Is it possible to use one with the 12v lucas rita set up??
Sorry for what might seem daft questions guys;)
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You will not be happy trying to use a Boyer with a dynamo. The battery will get low at some stage and you will break down. It will also kick back fiercely when you try to start.
You might get off with a RITA, because they work better at lower voltages than Boyers do.
I know Boyer claim that their latest Mk IV system works down to low voltage, but they have a history of making false claims.
I have only ever seen one electronic BTH magneto replacement on a bike and it appeared to be faulty.
Spending £200 on a good magneto is cheaper than wasting a smaller sum on a dodgy product.
Of course, you may wish to repeat the mistakes I've made in the past, just to be sure.
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Hi Bustersbike
Ideally I would agree that a Magneto is the thing on an A if you want to preserve the look/style/feel charm and all those things that make them what they are.
Having said that I fitted a Pazon to my last bike as it has other artefacts that make it something other than an A (indicators, top box and stuff) so it is "spoilt" but spoilt as I want it.
I chose the Pazon because it works at lower voltage than Boyer (it is made by ex Boyer employees), it is a nice bit of kit and easy to fit and even easier to adjust the bike timing should you need to.
I wont dwell on the difference it has made to the bikes starting or running because if the Magneto has been right it would have started and run as well, -- well possibly
I still have the magneto and it will get packed off to a forum member to be given a thorough test to see what's up with it, still bugs me that it would not run or start reliably (as it does now)
and if it needs fixed it will be and will find itself back in service as a spare to be alternated with the one on my Flash (other bike) as popular theory is they are best not left on shelfs for to long.
All the best with it - Bill
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You will not be happy trying to use a Boyer with a dynamo. The battery will get low at some stage and you will break down. It will also kick back fiercely when you try to start.
You might get off with a RITA, because they work better at lower voltages than Boyers do.
I know Boyer claim that their latest Mk IV system works down to low voltage, but they have a history of making false claims.
I have only ever seen one electronic BTH magneto replacement on a bike and it appeared to be faulty.
Spending £200 on a good magneto is cheaper than wasting a smaller sum on a dodgy product.
Of course, you may wish to repeat the mistakes I've made in the past, just to be sure.
Ah'm listening tae what you're saying TT.. don't really want tae be going down that route! Cheers muchly for the really sound advice ;) *smile*
When ye say "lower voltages", does that mean 6v?
Ah reckon ah'll probably stick with what ah've got and take it from there. Cheers muchly again;):D
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Hi Bustersbike
Ideally I would agree that a Magneto is the thing on an A if you want to preserve the look/style/feel charm and all those things that make them what they are.
Having said that I fitted a Pazon to my last bike as it has other artefacts that make it something other than an A (indicators, top box and stuff) so it is "spoilt" but spoilt as I want it.
I chose the Pazon because it works at lower voltage than Boyer (it is made by ex Boyer employees), it is a nice bit of kit and easy to fit and even easier to adjust the bike timing should you need to.
I wont dwell on the difference it has made to the bikes starting or running because if the Magneto has been right it would have started and run as well, -- well possibly
I still have the magneto and it will get packed off to a forum member to be given a thorough test to see what's up with it, still bugs me that it would not run or start reliably (as it does now)
and if it needs fixed it will be and will find itself back in service as a spare to be alternated with the one on my Flash (other bike) as popular theory is they are best not left on shelfs for to long.
All the best with it - Bill
Hi Bill, cheers for the reply;)
I'm not too fussed about the look / style etc... just as long as it runs ok;):D
I think it's maybe a case of the "grass is always greener" after hearing some folks raving about the Boyer gear. To be fair, I never really had much problems with what I've got on except damp / wet nights.
I'll look up that Pazon kit and see what's what... just incase!:D
Cheers muchly again;):D
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The reason magnetos have a reputation for unreliability is because people are trying to run them well beyond their service life. Nothing lasts forever. An original Lucas mag would last maybe 10-20 years then the capacitor or windings would start to fail. Some people are still trying to run mags which are 50 years old and never been serviced. I haven't got anything in the house which is still working after 50 years, apart from the dishwasher and even she's starting to get a bit tired...................
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To be fair, I never really had much problems with what I've got on except damp / wet nights.
I'll look up that Pazon kit and see what's what... just incase!:D
Cheers muchly again;):D
Ignition troubles in the rain will almost certainly be the same with any system.
Renew the HT leads, incase they have tiny cracks in the insulation.
Do not use metal shrouded plug caps, or ones with a rubber seal that touches the plug's porcelain insulator.
Clean the plug insulators and the ends of the coils and spray with WD40 or similar. Spray inside the plug caps and coil terminals and shrouds too.
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When ye say "lower voltages", does that mean 6v?
I just mean the low voltages you get when the dynamo can't keep up with lights and ignition, such as in town riding.
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To be fair, I never really had much problems with what I've got on except damp / wet nights.
I'll look up that Pazon kit and see what's what... just incase!:D
Cheers muchly again;):D
Ignition troubles in the rain will almost certainly be the same with any system.
Renew the HT leads, incase they have tiny cracks in the insulation.
Do not use metal shrouded plug caps, or ones with a rubber seal that touches the plug's porcelain insulator.
Clean the plug insulators and the ends of the coils and spray with WD40 or similar. Spray inside the plug caps and coil terminals and shrouds too.
Cheers for the help TT;) new leads. caps and plugs are on the shopping list:D
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with a boyer system as the voltage drops to say 9volts it goes on to full advance and it will kick you back below 9volts i dont think it works at all,your dynamo would be hard pressed to keep up with that including lights etc you really would do better getting a re built magneto if you can,or depending on your time and skills fit a modern alternator driving off a dummy spindle where your dynamo should live and keep your electronic ignition,or spend £400 plus on a 12v alton coversion cheers baz
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fit a modern alternator driving off a dummy spindle where your dynamo should live
Hey Baz, You hit a button there, I've considered that possibility,just for lights- I like the maggie, seems an alternator will maybe just squeeze in, have you seen it done successfully?? It'd be spinning fairly fast at times with the same gearing?
Cheers duTch
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yes ive seen them with car alternators with cutaway timing cases,i saw one at a local show that had a belt running from a pulley where the magneto should sit running up to an alternator mounted on the battery tray it must have had crank triggered ignition?,i ran mine for a while with a yamaha fj1200 alternator i cut down an old dynamo and made a new shaft for it with a renolds type missalinement coulpling to the alternator the drive was inside the front engine plates and the alternator was mounted on the left hand front engine plate as close as i could get it to the crankcases,it worked very well but the drive was noisy and i was worried it might snap the drive chain and wreck the inner timing cover,if i do it again i will look for a smaller alternator (maybe one from a kubota) and replace the chain with a toothed belt dynamo drive kit cheers baz
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Just finished grafting a Kubota to an S7 Sunbeam!
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/takka22/002-2.jpg
adm edit: img tags removed, please use photobucket's readymade thumbnail links
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That looks neat and tidy wilko, is that the complete unit with armature inside? Kind of looks like it takes a flywheel type commutator over the top? A mate mentioned a Kubota unit a while back.
Thanks Baz, some of those sound a bit agricultural but I like the idea of the dummy shaft, maybe with a kubota unit, or else I reckon a Guzzi one would also work that way I can interchange if need be, but I like the idea of a brushless unit!
hmmmm!!
cheers for now, duTch
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Yes the magnetized rotor bolts on around the stator and the original lucas housing over the lot.
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Yup thanks Wilko them's the words I was looking for,
magnetized rotor bolts on around the stator
, Presume the 'Lucas cover' is the 'weather cover' superfluous to my needs, but will source a local dealer and see what they have, I'd like to keep it british if I can(for some dumb reason?) or bosch. Could be a while before I do anything, priority to get back on the road!!
Cheers,duTch