The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Frame => Topic started by: Stephen Foster on 29.05. 2012 19:40
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What is the best product for the lubrication during assembly of Stainless Steel nuts /Bolts , etc please .
Is Loctite suited for the above ? Sounds counter productive ?
Hope Someone can advise please before I start reassembly soon .
Regards,
Steve ..
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Personally I don't think you can beat the good old fashioned copper grease, but I am sure you will get many different opinions.
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I bought some stuff from Halfords once that was to prevent galling, to use on stainless spokes it did the job but then set semi solid and made adjustment of spokes very difficult.
I now just use a bit of copper slip as Goldie does, I do believe there is a similar product made from aluminium
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Another one is graphite grease, we used loads of it when I was an engineering apprentice and it was one of the apprentices jobs to mix it from a recipe of graphite powder and some type of oil. Now you can get graphite grease anti seize.
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I use a product called Bostik Never.Seez original. Since I got my can some 10 years ago they have added a few more variants.
Cheers
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I had the misfortune to work for some years in a company that made stain steel sewage treatment machinery , what i found was if the male threads on a fastener had any knocks where the metal spreads , when a nut is engaged it will seize. A thread file or v-shaped needle file is great for cleaning the threads up. The female threads are obviously better protected. I second the use of copper grease, cheap and available.
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Hi Steve,
I also use Copperslip and recently removed my A10 engine. All the nuts and bolts are stainless steel and were treated with copperslip when I put it in the frame over 12 years ago. It came apart as if it had been built up only weeks previously.
Beezageezauk.
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There are lots of different brand anti sieze compounds, it doesnt really matter which one you use. What is important is that you use a anti sieze of some kind. Never ever ever assemble stainless without something on the threads.
For those that make their own stainless parts it helps if you use different grades if you are making something that goes together. As an example if you were making a rear axle assembly where the axle screws into the stub axle make the stub from 304 and the axle from 316. Different grades dont gall or "pick up" as easily.
I make all my own fasteners from stainless and wouldnt use anything else but I had some disasters early on before I learned how to work with the stuff.
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Years ago I bought a tube of "Silver Goop" (still have it, you need very little) that was recommended for assy of SS fittings, it worked a treat with no galling when assembling or disassembling..........
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Copper slip on the nuts & bolts but have gone to Nickel slip for plugs ( higher temperature ).
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Thanks all !
Am I safe in using "Copaslip! for the assorted nuts/bolts , etc & "Loctite" where security is required ?
Steve ..
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Hi Stephen,
Loctite requires grease and oil free threads to work on, use brake cleaner or thinners to clean them,
I have only had a very occasional problem with galling, but when it strikes its a B**tard
I normally use "nutloc" or similar on stainless engine/frame bolts studs, stainless into alloy or steel on the engine/ gearbox etc I lube
HTH
John O R
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Thank You John .
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There are lots of different brand anti sieze compounds, it doesnt really matter which one you use. What is important is that you use a anti sieze of some kind. Never ever ever assemble stainless without something on the threads.
Talk about reaching into the past, Brian posted this in 2012.
I have Barleycorn stainless for my engine mounting studs. Barleycorn ships with flat washers, I assume because there is expectation that spring or star washers don't really work well and that some kind of locking compound will be used on the threads. Here, Brian recommends (or insists upon) anti-seize of some kind. I'm having a hard time reckoning the apparent contradiction in using anti-seize where Loctite (or the like) might be the only nut security at the fitting. Your thoughts appreciated.
Richard L.
Edited, a bit.
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I use a product called Bostik Never.Seez original. Since I got my can some 10 years ago they have added a few more variants.
Cheers
+ 1
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I, too, saw Muskrat's post about Never Seez. I'm assuminig Never Seez does not simultaneously secure the nut while assuring it's easy to remove. For me, one question in this is whether Loctite satisfies anti-galling needs while also securing the nut. Sorry if the train seems like it's off the track, but I'm trying to come to grips with securing nuts vs. anti-seize. I'm thinking I'm missing some fundamental fact here.
Richard L.
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"Seizing nuts" sounds like a review of a Michael Jackson (RIP) video.
Richard L.
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*eek*
I use never seize and a lock washer, or nylock nuts.
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You'll never get stainless nuts / bolts tight without lubricant. I tend to use copperslip, but grease or any other lubricant would do.
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So far, I'm reading it as anti-seize, not Loctite. I can't go to Nylock nuts, so I guess it might be stainless star washers between nuts and flat washers. Still curious if wet Loctite is not, in effect, a lubricant during tightening. Appreciate the comments thus far and interested in hearing any more out there. (Not to be taken as waiting for someone to tell me what I want to hear even if what I want to hear is wrong. *whistle* *smile*
Richard L.
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... stainless star washers between nuts and flat washers...
My understanding is that a star or other locking washer should not have a flat washer next to it. Kind of undermines it's porpoise. 🐬
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I think it's more like belt and suspenders. Probably could just hitch it up tight against the flat washer and be done with it. I think the problem with just a star washer would be the thickness of the powder coat. The teeth of the washers might not be tall enough to access the metal behind the coating.
Richard L.
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I used two 5/16th whitworth stainless bolts nuts and washers that I borrowed from the acid plant at work to use on my bottom yokes, don't know what grade they are. I put two stainless lock washers on with a bit of copper slip and everything is fine
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My understanding is that a star or other locking washer should not have a flat washer next to it. Kind of undermines it's porpoise. 🐬
Problem there is they perform different functions, and it's common in engineering to use both together.
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When I was a motor mechanic, (this was late 60's to mid 70's) I was astonished to discover that Ford big-end nuts used no lock washers. I was told that Ford would award an employee a bonus if they could show a saving of a few pennies on each vehicle. Did they use a locking fluid? I don't recall using Locktite back then.
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Neil, remember way back when some car engines had a sheet metal nut acting as a locknut to the big end nuts? Usually left them off. Same as cars - eg Aston - that used split pins on the big end nuts. Simply left them out. I don't know of any engine since the 60's that used locking devices of any sort on engine bolts / nuts save plain washers under head bolts and maybe spring washers on ancillaries.
On my motorcycles I use plain washers on the engine mounting bolts, and avoid stainless for two reasons; they're not as strong as HT bolts and, as this thread highlights, are difficult to get tight due to thread binding. Also, whilst I spray frames and tinware with two pack, it's just a thin coat of primer and another thin coat of black cellulose on engine plates, otherwise one struggles to get anything tight (or stay tight) due to thickness of finish - be that powder coat or several coats of primer / two pack. I hardly ever use locktite for anything. When fitting helicoils (to ensure they don't come unwound with the stud / bolt) and maybe as insurance a bush doesn't move in a casting are about the only instances I can think of.
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I worked with Stainless Steel for over 40 years and the one thing stainless steel hates is streess if you over tighten nuts and bolts by even a small amount it will gall when ypu try to undo them it also hates any kind of vibration it will crack much easier than mild steel. We were told by the experts that whatever grade of stainless that you use for your bolts use a different grade for the nuts this reduces the chance of galling. But working in the food industry we could only ever use 316 grade stainless steel, the company would not try any other grade of stainless even for things that would not come into contact with the product because with most grades you cannot tell just by looking at it what grade itiis.
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Neil, remember way back when some car engines had a sheet metal nut acting as a locknut to the big end nuts?
I have never seen that. I've seen a double tab washer for big-ends
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The last time I saw that type of lock washer was on my first car back in 1966 it was a1950 Austin A40 Devon that I bought for £25 the engine packed in after 3 weeks and when I stipped it down the previous owner had fitted new big ends but had not bent over the tabs on the lock washers so they came loose and ruined the crankshaft. I bought another A40 car from a mate at work who was going to scrap it I got it for £5 and built a good car out of the 2 cars. Had that car for a few years toured all over the country in it drove it from NE england down to relations in Sussex,
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... the previous owner had fitted new big ends but had not bent over the tabs on the lock washers so they came loose and ruined the crankshaft...
And yet lock washers are not needed these days.
Perhaps they forgot to tighten their nuts. Ooerr missus!
My Austin Seven had split pins in castellated nuts.
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I'm using stainless bolts with stainless nyloc nuts or stainless dome nuts assembled with "silver goop" in places that "show", but cant comment on durability for a while yet, I'm afraid!
I think the best compromise Richard is to use the lubricant because everybody knows that SS WILL gall up otherwise, but then make a point of checking bolt/nut tightness on a regular basis - just as the old manuals used to advise actually!
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Well, I must admit to being buoyed by Rex's comment regarding flat washers and lock washers together. I had bought the studs, nuts and flat washers as kits, so I'm not inclined to spend the money and time it would take to come up with stainless Nylock nuts in BSC (I believe that's right, the thread type, that is). So, I've ordered internal-tooth stainless star washers and located copper-based anti-seize near me. On the possibility (maybe, likelihood) that lock washers aren't needed at all, having them isn't likely to make shaking-loose worse.
While looking for the star washers, I was amused that they could be had with tall teeth for more agressive grip. That was interesting, but they were only available in external teeth and recommended for nuts big enough to cover the whole washer, which mine wouldn't.
Someday, soon, I'll be on to another issue that also should have been easier than I make it.
Richard L.
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Man, oh, man. Stuff gets here fast from McMaster-Carr. About 24 hours from order to star washers on the porch.
So, I tested one of the engine-mount studs with the two-washer theory. Seems that the lead-in chamfer for the thread is almost large enough in diameter for the star points to miss the nut completely, but I'm planning to go with it anyway.
Also, found what I think will be a very useful chart for knowing the torque for lubricated threads (attached as picture and downloadable PDF). I won't be coming within more than 75% (if that) of any of these maximum values. Gotta test the good ol' hand feel.
Richard L.
Sometimes I discover ridiculous typos that have to be fixed. You know what I mean if you read the above before this edit.
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Very handy table that, Richard.
First thing that jumps at me is the difference between Stainless (type 316) and HT steel. It gives 45ft/lbs for 1/2", whereas the 1/2" cyl head bolts on my boat engines are torqued to 130ft/lbs. I know many people overestimate the strength of stainless, but the difference is still substantial.
On the other hand, I'm surprised silicon bronze is so high, and surprised monel is so low. The latter is often used instead of 316 when superior strength is required (eg boat propshafts).
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When fitting sta washers I have found that you need to use the "wrong size " washers to get the tangs in the right position to do their stuff.
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Star washers were in days of yore discouraged as they can allow ingress of water leading to fun and games removing nuts and in particular through bolts 20 years down the line. Only applies to damp climates particularly where the gritters are out 8 months of the year. Ruddy things were out yesterday again.