The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: frankenstein on 12.09. 2008 18:51
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hi..does anybody have any advice on how to do a quick test to see if my dynamo is charging ok on my 1960 bsa a10 gold flash...i do not have a multimeter...a bulb test might be best...cheers
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Frank... Make yourself one of these! the bulb is 12volt even though my bikes electrics are 6 volts. Careful because the 6 volt dynamo is capable of putting out up to about 17 volts so don't rev the bike too hard or the bulb will blow. Sorry its a large picture, it's so you can see how its wired at the base of bulb. Crocodile clip to frame. That'll tell you if the dyna is working or not.
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv631%2Fmr-lj35%2FDynamoTester.jpg&hash=35533affb53fb100964654308e50608447dbda17)
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Frankenstein,
Is that the nickname you want us to use, or would you prefer the use of your first name (which is not known to me)?
Anyway, LJ's bulb doohickey will be helpful and give you the answer as to whether or not the dynamo is working. However, at about 10 GBP you can buy a perfectly acceptable analog, moving coil, multimeter from Maplin or other stores (I am supposing you are in the UK, otherwise, about $20 US at Radio Shack). I noticed that you were (or are) having issues with failing batteries. I failed a couple of cheap gel batteries before following the regulator adjustment instructions in the Haynes manual and have not failed another since. Those instructions call for an analog meter, which is why I named that type. My gut feeling is that you will get a lot of use from the meter, on the bike and around the house, once you own it.
Richard
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thats superb..i will construct one asap....cheers!
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hi....yes i will also take a trip to maplins and get the meter and make the bulb device...i have a maplins store only two miles away..i am having trouble again with the bsa...the battery is not charging (nightmare with electronic ignition) which i suspect has been my problem all the time...i put a new regulator on but did not adjust it..i was kind of wishing it would work out of the box...i have a friend with a flash and will borrow his manual to set the regulator up..its a LUCAS RB 108 REGULATOR ...any body out there got any simple set up instructions
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Hi, setting up the reg is never easy, first of all the device must be in decent shape, then one has to follow the instructions, using a good dose of patience as the most important tool.
I don't have the RB108 info, but I think you can use the 107 pdf: http://www.a7a10.net/manual54/controlboxrb.pdf http://www.a7a10.net/lucasmain.htm
What about an electronic regulator? There has been some topics about them here lately. Good luck.
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hi folks...heres an update...i have tested the generator using a voltmeter and the bulb method and there is no electical output..not even a glimer on the bulb...i tried re-polarizing the gen...but still no output...any ideas from now would be great
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I suppose the dynamo drive chain is there *smile*, and the cabling from the dynamo is ok.
A little reading here http://www.a7a10.net/manual54/generator.pdf gives good directions of how to check the dynamo internals. Basically, 3 parts: brushes\connection plate, armature, field coil.
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Oh dear things are not looking good. It's strippa dyna time I'm afraid, you'll need to give it a clean out and hopefully.... by cleaning the copper commutator carefully with the finest emery cloth and cleaning off muck afterwards, new brushes if the old ones have worn down, you might be lucky to bring it back to life. Look carefully for signs of it having overheated if you had not adjusted your regulator. I'm betting you've cooked your battery and dynamo *sad2* usually one segment goes and if your lucky it may be very close to that segment, you might even be lucky to solder that bit carefully. But hey we are not that far yet. Keeping fingers crossed for you!
Brave of you to use a mechanical Reg, they are fine when set up, but a bit of a pig to do so, It would be wise to get a battery status monitor (I hear everyone groaning about me mentioning that again!)
Okay get to it lad, chop chop, fine weather out there and you need to be riding! *smile*
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me thinks i am going to buy a solid state regulator before i fry another dynamo...or vice versa....are all bsa a10s of 1960 vintage poitive earth...just so i order the right regulator...me thinks this is ok as suggested by another member of the forum http://www.manortec.co.uk/dvr.htm cheers
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Frankenstein, I fitted a DVR2 electronic regulator to my plunger A10 and it works perfectly. I would certainly recommend them.
For the owners of plunger models, the DVR2 fits inside the old CVC case so there is no visible change.
Brian.
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Agree with Brian. You can have positive or negative earth - your choice but you do need to specify when you order. Probably it's positive, but changing polarity is no big deal. Which battery terminal goes to the frame at the moment? That'll tell you which way round you're wired up currently (pardon the pun), and no reason to change it really.
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what great info from everybody...first step is to strip the dyno and have a look...i hope its just the brushes.....but untill then i am running on a total loss system...it gets me about for now...i cant miss rivington bikers meet on sunday...some great classics up ther today.....a rocket 3 was nice to see....thanks for info on the solid state reg....looks like the one to buy..!
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Sounds rather definitive that the dynamo is bad, but the test where you try to run it as a motor might be interesting before it is stripped down. This is done with the dynamo on the bench. Connect terminals F and D together. Connect one side of a 6V battery to these joined connections and the other side to the body of the dynamo. If the dynamo is basically good it will turn as a motor. Don't allow the connections to stay made for more than a couple of seconds if it doesn't start turning right away. This, to avoid further damage in case there is a short circuit. Even if it does work as a motor, there will probabaly be service to be done (brushes, examination of brush springs, bearings and lubrication, firmness of terminal rivets in the brush-holder plate, tightness of long assembly screws, surfacing of commutator, etc.)
Richard
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Even if you are able to make the dynamo "motor" it does not mean that the dynamo will generate. I am afraid that this is not a reliable diagnostic aid. A dynamo will very often motor and not generate. If there is a fault the dynamo will motor due to inertia.That is to say if one or more comutator segments are open circuit the the serviceable ones will allow the dynamo to motor because the open circuit segments will simply be passed over by the brushes due to momentum. You really need a meter to check the dynamo. At about 1000 rpm a reading of 1/2 volt indicates a suspect field winding. A voltage of 1 1/2 - 2 volts would be a suspect armature.
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A101960,
Thanks for the expansion. Yes, it makes sense that bad segments could be passed over while motoring. Not that it means the dynamo is good, but, when running on the engine, those same bad segments are passed over while the good ones would be generating. All this because Faraday's Law is a two-way street. In the case of my dynamo, it motored and generated, which was a lucky coincidence. In the case of Franenstein's dynamo, it is rather clearly in trouble, so, despite my apparent mistatement of indicating a good unit, it would still be revealing to know if it motors. If so, and it is truly bad, it certainly would be an empirical proof of your point.
Richard
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Hopefully I have done this correctly, follow this link. This guy has rebuild kits for most dynamos so if you want to have a go at reconditioning your own dynamo you can get everything you need.
http://stores.ebay.com.au/ftw-motorcycles53_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsxQ3asstQQtZkm
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Yes there are a few people selling the parts now, indeed I have replaced my armature on one of my bikes. However, replacing the field coil with a new one requires a special tool. It has to be pressed into place correctly so I understand. No problem in replacing the old one once removed as its already taken its shape.
(Correct me if I'm wrong someone)
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ok....folks....i have done a full strip down of the dyno today and cleaned and inspected after doing the rotation bench test which went great and the dyno rotated fine when conected to a 6v battery....on inspection the brushes where ok for wear...but in my opinion a bit soft and will need replacing at a later date.....i have cleaned the copper commutator carefully with the fine emery cloth as it was almost black.....all conectors have been checked and wd 40 worked a treat on cleaning the insides as the dyno was filthy ..... i bolted it all back together and hey presto the test bulb lit up great...problem fixed for now...fingers crossed.....i now will be ordering one of those solid state regulators before using the bike again....now to fix the oil leak from the timing side case....i just knew things had gone to well.....thanks to every body in the forum for your advice !
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Great news.
Will you be buying the Manotec DVR2? I am very interested to hear how that goes for you. So far, there are many good reports of it on this forum. If I start frying batteries again, I will likely go that way.
Richard
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hi richard
ii have just ordered the Manotec DVR2 positive earth..you can pay via paypal from there website which is very easy...report to follow after fitting...cheers....frankenstein
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dynamo bit the dust again....aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhhh !....is it possible to remove the carbon brushes or check them whilst the dyno is still on the bike to avoid removing the timing case cover
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I believe it is, but I am sitting at a desk right now and not in front of my bike. The difficulty might be getting an angle on the terminal screws so that you access them with a screwdriver. Not to state the obvious, but I assume you have checked that the brush leads are properly insulated and not getting pinched by the cover or the like.
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Sorry for all that trouble. Here is what I did to get control, much easier to sort out the gremlins than when it's on the bike! It's the complete bike wiring duplicated (in a haste, looks like a mess but worked fine) when I lost all charging once upon a time.
http://www.a7a10.net/BSA/techpics/powertest.jpg
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Yes it is possible if you have the large end cap, but if you have the bakelite end cap and band then its a bit more awkward, can be done but be prepared for some sweat. If you have the latter then make sure that the band nut and bolt part is not shortening out on one of the brushes.
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Erling,
Were you able to set the alternator with the digital meter? I thought the idea was to use the moving coil so you could detect, with greater precision, the exact point for adjustment. (Don't ask me without a book in front of me what that point is.)
Richard
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Just on the subject of fitting the field winding. The manuals show a special tool to hold the winding tight while you do up the screws. I use a lump of brass the same diameter as the armature held in the vice. Slide the body with winding over this and use a hand held impact driver. Give the screws (use new ones) a couple of good whacks. I have done several over the years like this and never had a problem.
Erling, I hope thats not the kitchen table underneath your test bed !!!!!!!
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Were you able to set the alternator with the digital meter?
I suppose you meen the regulator, yes, did adjust well with a multimeter, trying to follow most of the lucas instructions.
I hope thats not the kitchen table underneath your test bed
No. It's the living room table! (had the house for myself for a period) *lol*
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is it easy to rebuild a dyno...do i need any special tools...i took mine apart ok as far as cleaning....i did not remove the field coil or any bearings....hawker do this rebuild kit http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BSA-A7-A10-E3L-Dynamo-Rebuild-Kit_W0QQitemZ180290428673QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item180290428673&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
or will do an exchange for £165 any advice would be great
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Erling,
Yes, of course, the "regulator." Brain (not, "Brian") must have fallen asleep while fingers continued to type.
Richard
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Frankenstein, its not too difficult to rebuild a dynamo. If you have never done one or are not confident then maybe you know someone who could help, most older auto electricians will be well versed with generators. Alternatively the exchange unit may be the way to go.
Most manuals have a exploded view of a generator in them to show you where the parts all go. There are no tricky bits in them however, no shims or spring loaded bits etc. If you decide to do it yourself just take carefull note of how it comes apart. You must be very carefull not to damage the field winding or the armature but otherwise it straight forward.
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And if you were happy to take it apart and reassemble, you could get an exchange armature for a lot less than that if that's the problem. The only hard-ish thing is getting the field coil off and back as discussed already. Then there's the question of ensuring the little end plate on the drive end is well attached, with reasonable screw threads and screws (they do tend to be a bit tired often), plus being happy with the bearings and their housings. No slop. Otherwise it should be painless. And at least it's something that can be done in comfort on the kitchen or living room table!
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Yes do have a go! It's not too difficult and quite satisfying when you've done it. Lets hope its nothing like this... but still fixable!
Edit... Take care of that insulating board thingy it is rather fragile, mine is broken as you can see, there is only one screw holding it into place and can come loose.
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hi...and thanks to all for your info..i am going to give it a go...i have rebuilt engines and such like in the past...so this should not be to complex....it was a real pain finding out that the cleaned dyno failed again so quick *sad2* as it took a bit agro to get the out timing cover to stop leaking oil...on the plus side my dvr2 solid state reg arrived today and looks very simple to fit...now to tell the wife i have to spend some more cash...mmmm..could be tricky !
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LJ,
I think your commutator might need a bit of service.
Richard
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Oh it was well and truely replaced with a new one Richard! But what a mess in there when I opened it up. *eek*
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I failed a couple of cheap gel batteries before following the regulator adjustment instructions in the Haynes manual and have not failed another since.
Well, I spoke too soon about not frying cheap batteries with my CVC regulator. It seems another (thr third) has gone. I am not even bothering with trying to adjust the CVC again. Rather, I am going right for the DVR2. I will let you know how that turns out, but I have high hopes considering all good things reported herein.
Richard
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Think you'll be happy Richard. Fingers crossed anyway. I just bought my third dvr as I gradually replace all other regulators on dynamo bikes. Can't remember if you're running 6 or 12 volt, but shouldn't make any odds apart from how you wire it in- they seem to just work. And the instructions are crystal clear. So far, I have found that topping up batteries regularly is a thing of the past with them - which indicates that they do regulate well in all normal conditions. I have standard reasonable quality (Yuasa) lead-acid batteries in my bikes, be they 6 or 12 volt. Have never tried gel, yet.
I've been told that for anyone who uses the excellent Cyclon 2 volt cells linked up as required, the charge rate can appear a tad high when the Cyclons are part-discharged, owing to the low internal resistance in or between the cells. This manifests itself, not surprisingly, in a high current being generated by the dynamo until the cells are up to full charge. Perhaps current regulation will be the next step in the Fight for Light and Battery Life, though I have no real understanding of how difficult that is to manage. However, CVC boxes in many old pre-alternator cars had a third stack/coil to do just that.
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Hoping you are all happy with the DVR2's.
Interesting that you bring up the subject of current limiting, Bill. It is true that many old car regulator units included current adjustment on the third bobbin, but the more compact Lucas bike type also includes a non adjustable current limit, to prevent excess battery charge. At the same time the dynamo armature is protected from excessive current for too long.
It is actually quite a challenge to incorporate current limiting in the electronic regulator. What value of maximum current is acceptable? This should reasonably depend upon the dynamo type, as well as perhaps the battery type for full protection. From the electronics point of view limiting the current is simple enough in concept, tricky in practice. The simple one transistor turned on by drop across a series resistor really dissipates too much heat. Something more complicated is indicated, if going to an integrated circuit solution it is impossible to maintain a complementary circuit for + & - earth. More development expense and two circuit boards are one result. It becomes tricky to manage all the possible variants in production. And the extra cost of components will help to price the resulting products out of the market, especially to less discriminating purchasers than typically found on this forum. ;)
It could well be argued that as long as not too large (nor too low internal resistance) a battery is fitted then the high initial charging current when discharged, will be of small enough level and short enough duration to avoid damage to battery or dynamo. A suitable fuse serves as a traditional protection mechanism as well. As a final resort keeping revs and thus the charging current down a bit to prevent nuisance blowing with a low battery (electromechanical sympathy perhaps). In reality this should be a rare scenario, and the better life anticipated from precise voltage charging offsets this potential limitation when using (most ????) present electronic offerings.
Back to work I guess.
Mike
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I find it hard to believe that some of you are having so much trouble with the electro - mechanical cvc units.
I strip them and clean all contacts, ensure the resistor has not gone open circuit or high [usually caused by rust], reassemble and set all the clearances as per the book.
I adjust electrically on the bench with a generator. I was using a variable rectified supply but found that the settings varied when connected to the generator on the bike.
So far I and many of my associates have had years of trouble free riding.
The only problem I have encountered is the bloke who " wanted a bit more out of it" and altered the settings and immediately started using battery water. Lucky he didn't burn out his generator!
Trev.
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Trev,
I hope the "hard to believe" part of your message is tongue-in-cheek. After all, you are saying you have a generator on the bench to test with, which, I presume, means that you also have a motor of some sort that can turn the generator at enough RPM to perform the test. Further, originally, you had a variable rectified supply. As for myself, I wouldn't mind trying to get the CVC running again, but I have already blown my way through about $100 in batteries and would prefer to avoid flushing more money away on them. Additionally, the mounting bolts are broken from my CVC, so its replacement seemed inevitable anyway. The $95 (including shipping from the UK to the USA) for the DVR2 seemed a reasonable investment, to avoid more fried batteries, in case I was not as successful as you in tuning the CVC.
Richard
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Richard, I assure you I was not "tongue in cheek" with my comments about the cvc regulator as I have resurrected many of them and they are all working well. My only failure to date was an Indian made pattern type and it would not stay in adjustment. I have found the pattern regulators are not as well made as the Lucas originals but if they are adjusted correctly they work OK.
The DVR2 is a very good regulator. I recently converted a CAV generator from a 1921 Vauxhall to a regulated output in lieu of the primitive system from that era. I used the DVR2 in the original relay box and the owner is very happy. Hopefully no more burnt out field coils.
Trev.
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Trev,
Sorry. I had a suspicion I might be misunderstood. What I meant was that It would be less trouble for you than, for example, me, because you have the bench-testing gear. I was not doubting, at all, your success with the CVCs. I was, however, doubting my own chance at success absent the bench gear.
I hope this explanation keeps us on the square.
Richard
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Thanks (manor)Mike for wise words re current management. Just had a chance to read them after being away on holiday for a couple of weeks. Reckon you're right about the sympathy thing, and just about understand what you said about 'how' and 'how many amps'! Pleased to say that all my various electrical bits and pieces seem to be working well, and given reasonable quality, reasonable size, reasonably well-charged batteries - no problems at all. The Cyclon point arose from seeing the level of charge being delivered, even with lights on, on another bike thus fitted - which was towards the dynamo's upper limit until the cells were up to speed. Hence the current management thought. I guess the moral is - keep the battery charged up, whatever type it be, if you don't use the bike a lot. Which won't affect me I hope.