The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: Tone on 07.04. 2009 22:14
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Can someone please tell me what you have to do to change to 12 volt? Do you get rid of the regulator? do you do anything to the dynamo etc? A list of new bit's you need would be a great help,Cheers Tone. *smiley4*
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Tone
The easiest/cheapest way to do it is: Buy a 12v battery and 12 v bulbs and put them in. Get rid of the mechanical regulator if you have it and get . . . a DVR2, which can be ordered in Positive Earth (probably yours is?) or Negative. (Other makes also work fine - I'm just biased through happy experience.) DVRs come with the option of running in 6v or 12 v mode - all you do is NOT use one wire in 12v mode and the instructions are such that you couldn't screw up. But they are sensitive to the earth, as stated. A so-called 6 volt dynamo will easily chuck out enough to run a 12v system, especially if you have a belt drive conversion which gears the dynamo up about 10 per cent. But it will need a few more revs then before to get to the point where the electrical load is balanced by the dynamo's output.
Or you could have the dynamo rewound with finer wire for the armature and field - plenty of options there from all the usual electrical specialists - armatures about 65 quid, field coils about 25-28 or so. Plus the new regulator - 40-ish.
Some modern regulators require(d) the internal wiring of the field coil and brushes to be changed, is the only footnote to add. Not sure if any of them still do, but JG did for a long time.
Good luck. Best advantages of the change are lower current for the power (watts) so fewer stray amps running around, less sensitivity to bad connections in the harness owing to the oomph of the 12v compared with the 6, plus it's so much easier to buy 12v bulbs. Having said that, my A10 is the only dynamo bike I have still running at 6v . . . and it's fine too.
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Thanks Groily, very helpful, the DVRZ you mentioned where would I get one, is there a trade name for it?also would I have to change the light fittings?
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These things are brilliant. Here's a link to Mikes website.
http://www.manortec.co.uk/dvr.htm
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For some years my A7 has had a car type mechanical reg. box, the sort used on early Minis, Moggie Minors etc before they introduced alternators. I fitted this when the electronic unit went wrong and its worked fine, no adjustments needed.
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No need to change light fittings Tone if you get the right bulbs. For them, no-one is better than Paul Goff (links all over the place in electrical threads here). All types of fitting and bulbs, including halogens with old twin pole connections, etc etc. You'll have no trouble unless you've got something really weird up front..
Re the old-style car regulator Fido, Yes, I've heard they work fine too. But isn't the box rather large, as doesn't it also contain the current regulating stack, redundant on our toys? Not that it matters if it'll go in the toolbox/under the seat! Bit hard to get these days though, what with the shortage of scrap-yards of the old sort where these things could be got for a pound. Funny thing, which supports your point, is that I never ever had a car CVC fail in umpteen gazillion miles in old Minis and Moggies . . . can't say the same for their 2-wheeled cousins!
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The only potential issue with the car regulator is that its current limit is much higher than the original or the electronic regulators. This would only be an issue with a very low battery while also running lights at high revs...not something you would usually encounter.
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It's a voltage regulator, not a current regulator. The charge voltage for a small motorcycle battery is much the same as that for a large car battery.
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The only potential issue with the car regulator is that its current limit is much higher than the original or the electronic regulators. This would only be an issue with a very low battery while also running lights at high revs...not something you would usually encounter.
Does the original regulator have any current limit at all though?
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Most automotive mechanical two and three-coil regulators include current regulation as well as a current limit. This prevents a) overcharging the battery and b) drawing too much current from the generator when demand and speeds are high. I can't say for sure the original MCR2 regulators had this as I've never seen a schematic or functional description of one, but all of the Bosch and other Lucas regulators I've seen have current and voltage coils in the regulating coil to limit the amount of current coming from the generator as well as the voltage. Usually, the current regulation is matched to the current capacity of the generator.
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Yes, the car type regulator is capable of controlling current but in this case it will never act to restrict the current because the dynamo will never reach the output level where it would come into force. Effectively, the current is not controlled, as is the case with the original 6 volt regulator.
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As Far As I Know, no m'cycle mechanical CVC unit from Lucas has current regulation built-in. Car ones do, and as Fido says, the E3L will probably never get near the output in Amps that would make it regulate (even with a flattish battery). So that bit of it is redundant. The old dynamos on Moggies and so on were rated 20 Amps; ours are 10.
But they all, whether for cars or bikes, allow a discharge into the field from the battery at low revs. DVR2s don't - which is one of their very best features . . .
For my money, call Mike and get something foolproof that works, fits anywhere and was designed with our machinery in mind!
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Groily, I've had a good look round and I cant find anything about Paul Goff, has he got a web shop or some way of contacting him? Cheers Tony.
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Fellows I think you will find the Lucas motorcycle regulators do have current regulation via the heavy winding around the "regulator" coil. Heavy current in this coil will attract the regulator armature and open the supply to the field coil.
In fact, there are 2 different MCR2 types with differing number of turns on the regulator, one type for the E3L and the other for the E3H, E3N etc.
Trev.
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My apologies, you are correct, Trev. I just had a look at Service Sheet 804 and it does mention the series winding which restricts the voltage in the case of high current. I think my 1948 bike would originally have had the BR107 regulator, covered in service sheet 804A. The text of that section does not mention current compensation but the circuit diagram shows the same series winding going to the A (output) terminal. *red*
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Tone
Paul Goff home web page link below
http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/index.htm
Richard
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Trev...
In fact, there are 2 different MCR2 types with differing number of turns on the regulator, one type for the E3L and the other for the E3H, E3N etc.
Indeed there are two types of MCR2 regulators and I have been wondering why the differencies. I've recently upgraded my BSA M21... (Sorry about getting away from A10s and straying off thread topic!)
... From a short dynamo (40 watts) to longer dynamo (60 watts) Not realising that when doing this the regulator also has to be changed from an MCR1 to MCR2. But I have two MCR2 regulators and both are different as you mention, in fact at one time I did not know if they were earlier or later ones? So can you tell me please which is which in the photo's? and the one I need for my longer E3L.
The left one has no markings on it at all.
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Mine to add to Fido's too Trev - very happy to be put straight on that.
Not sure about the different types of CVC though LJ- have had sealed ones and ones with removable lids, ones for short dynamos and for long .. . but they're all long gone I fear, so nothing to poke about in and see.
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Thanks Richard, Paul's site is too good I've ordered more than I think I needed. *smile*
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LJ,
the regulator on the left is a late MCR2, it has the same mechanism as the RB107 & RB108. The one on the right is the early type and is similar to the MCR1.
Both of yours are suitable for a 60W generator. The 40W type has 7 turns of heavy conductor on the regulating bobbin and the 60W has 5.
Fido, your 1948 bike should have had a 40W generator with an MCR1 regulator.
Trev.
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Thanks Trev... That's a helpful reply!
Probably my pictures of the regulators are a bit decieving as the left one looks quite crummy compared to the cleaner right one, making the right one look newer and later. But... the right one does look much more updated and streamlined. It just goes to show that appearances can be quite deceptive.
Thanks again!
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Hi all,
Have read the 12 V's 6 volt posts and have a couple of questions.
I am presently restoring a 53 flash and have opted for the DVR to replace the MCR with the SRM toothed belt drive mod.
With some other other Orabanda approved mods:
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn229%2FJoshuacox_2006%2F03JUN09022.jpg&hash=b01b1237ecf838a642857c9ba0e7aeb135a43fba)
Presently looking at replacing the underslung pilot and brake/tail with LED, which will use perhaps 1W between them, and a halogen, some here have said they use a 50/65W ( or there abouts ), does this work OK, what about at idle ?.
I understand the power rating of the generator is proportional, for a fixed unit, to field strength and RPM.
A 60W generator will not stop generating at 60.01W, It will keep putting out power until it overheats and breaks down the insulation and burns a winding, but must be at an appropriate RPM to achieve said power output.
So what are the advantages of having the unit rewired for 12 volt ?, is there an advantage if one uses the belt mod ?.
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My friend and I have both been running our A10's with 12v for the last 3 years
.he uses a tooth belt conversion from SRM .The belt failed after 2000 miles .I think I remember Paul Goff saying this happens.Also, a flange fell off his pulley .I use the Tony Hayward "genration 3" (sounds a bit Star Trek) kit and have not looked at it in 6500 miles.Both these kits raise the gearing slightly.I believe Tony Hayward Now supplies SRM with their kits and you can get them direct from him at a considerably cheaper price .
We both use "V-reg" solid state Voltage controls from AO services.
We both agree that not much charging takes place below 30mph and running around town at night drains the battery.
Hope this is of interest.
Mike
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Josh, if you are not going to be riding at night, why bother converting to 12V?
If you go back in time to an earlier post you can get the comparison between a standard generator and one which I rewound to 12V.
Trev.
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We both use "V-reg" solid state Voltage controls from AO services.
Isn't the V-reg one of the daft ones that drains the battery when charging isn't taking place?
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One flange fell off my SRM drive pulley too and the centre taper died in days despite being assembled apparently perfectly well. Machined it to take the old steel sprocket-centre with its decent taper and it's fine now, but shouldn't have had to. Belt hasn't broken in a few thousand miles. Maybe I should start to worry. If I had my time again I'd buy elsewhere.
Still on 6v with DVR2 and 35W halogen for my A, works well enough and obviously charges from low revs. No discharge into the field coil at tickover per Triton Thrasher's point. Which is a v good feature of Manormike's widget I think. I certainly prefer over the JG and V-reg jobs I've had (at 12v and 6), which are now in reserve. But I do prefer the better illumination from 12v systems (with DVRs) on other bikes as personally I need lights quite a lot for half the year. Have found the combination of E3L at 6 or 12v with DVR extremely reliable over quite a lot of miles. Hardly ever think of Uncle Joe as the Prince of Darkness any more.
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We both use "V-reg" solid state Voltage controls from AO services.
Isn't the V-reg one of the daft ones that drains the battery when charging isn't taking place?
No.
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If pulleys have fallen off the drive end, I'm probably going to regret drilling the outer threads, guess I'll just have to suck it and see.
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Josh,
I'm sorry, please refresh my memory, the helicoiled holes are for a puller?
Richard L.
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That's correct, the inner holes fit a small harmonic balance puller, and the outer holes a big one (a little over engineered, I had fun doing it).
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn229%2FJoshuacox_2006%2F22JUN09075.jpg&hash=8af05b705bc1f3d1d2074677dcb87e67e461cc91)
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn229%2FJoshuacox_2006%2F22JUN09084.jpg&hash=44c8989f94ee7c670600a4c23fccc817470d2e9e)
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn229%2FJoshuacox_2006%2F22JUN09088.jpg&hash=107817e0323fd613a6604d7861855cb6a3d1bf0c)
Mike, is there any reason I can not pop a rivet in one of the mounting holes, tap it and use it for a earthing point ?,
FYI, SN: 0419.
Trev,
I want to go 12 volt for a number of reasons:
*I already have a 12 volt charger,
*I believe a great number of the engine problems with these bikes are with the Magneto, if this gets under my skin I can go electronic very easily,and,
* Bulbs and batteries are easier to buy.