The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: agonda1 on 03.12. 2015 20:12

Title: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: agonda1 on 03.12. 2015 20:12
Have fitted anti- sump valve to feed line,this has not cured wet sumping ( Iknow they have to be clinically clean to be work )
Considering replacing with simple on/off 8mm petrol tap.Apart from the obvious ' what if I forget to turn it on ' is there anything wrong with this set up

jim
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: duTch on 03.12. 2015 20:42

 *problem*...there's been plenty of discussion on this; all I'll say is that I often forget to turn the fuel on, so can't be trusted to remember that as well...
 I erroneously used socket cap screws to fit my oil pump, and the last two occasions I've been inside there (last a couple of weeks ago to fit the new oil pump), I found the screws had loosened off so I reckon would allow some bleed down, and bad feed pressure....so anyone who has done this, I suggest they be replaced with proper studs, or at least check them regularly, and wire them up as I did until I get new studs
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 03.12. 2015 20:44
Apart from the obvious ' what if I forget to turn it on ' is there anything wrong with this set up

jim

Is that not enough?
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: morris on 03.12. 2015 21:08
Recipe for disaster I'd say...
Are you sure it's real wet sumping? There's always about a good cupfull of oil in the sump.
When I leave mine alone for a week or two (which rarely happens) I even get about two cupfulls out of the sump but never had any problem with it.
It only gets nasty when you notice your boots are filling up with oil on the first start up after a long standstill. Though it really needs a lot of oil in the sump before doing that.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: Duncan R on 04.12. 2015 10:06
Cheap and easy solution - Fit an alloy sump plate with a drain bolt on it. Drain excess oil into a clean container, refit sump plug and put the drained oil back in the oil tank. Takes less than 5 mins. No dodgy valves or taps that you forget turn on
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: duTch on 04.12. 2015 10:48

 The other thing I didn't say is, you probably won't get much sympathy if you do it and it goes wrong- sorry. *smile*
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: worntorn on 07.12. 2015 20:46
Probably the only thing scarier than an automatic valve (spring and ball) in the feed line is a manual valve without a fail-safe. Most of us would eventually forget to turn it on at some point.
The auto ones seem to destroy a lot of engines as well.
Even so, I did put a manual valve with a failsafe on one of my bikes. It is an all new engine and pump but the pump does a steady drip.......drip at a rate of about 10 drops per minute. This equates to a full sump in a few days, so it was beyond annoying.
The failsafe is the igniton key. The valve can only be operated with the ignition key and when the oil is turned off the key cannot be removed from the valve. I only have one active key for the bike, plus an inactive key that is taped on in a hidden location. The hidden key is for use in the event that I am out on the bike somewhere and lose the regular key. In this case the oil is on anyway.
I've racked my brain to come up with a way that this system could fail and haven't come up with anything. Been using it for a couple of years now.
Definitely solved the wetsumping and also the associated leakage from a full sump.

Glen
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: chaterlea25 on 07.12. 2015 22:14
Hi Glen,
Quote
I've racked my brain to come up with a way that this system could fail and haven't come up with anything.

Hotwiring ignition ??  *problem* *warn* *angry*

John
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: WozzA on 07.12. 2015 23:00
a simple on / off valve with a 12" arm that fouled the kick start when closed would work..  *eek* *whistle*
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: terryg on 07.12. 2015 23:04
Maybe you're right Wozza but sure to lose a few points when the bike is marked at the next concours d'elegance.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: Topdad on 08.12. 2015 11:20
My tuppence worth, I fitted a inline valve which appeared to work fine that is until one day I started up checked the return flow and there was nothing coming back   *????* . A quick check of the pump proved that was turning ok ,then checked the valve the bloody ball had jammed closed and took a real belt with a punch to shift it . I simply removed the ball and spring etc and used the body as a connector ,oil return back to normal , so I'd forget that idea and go for the alloy sump and drain plug, cheers Bob
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: stu.andrews on 08.12. 2015 16:15
SRM Sump plate with a drain bolt-the ONLY safe way!
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: Viking on 08.12. 2015 20:31
Get a manufacture new oil pump from SRM in Wales, this stop the problem.

My A10 SR can stand unused for 6 mounths without draining oil to the sump.

That is a  proof solution :-)
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: worntorn on 08.12. 2015 23:06
Hi Glen,
Quote
I've racked my brain to come up with a way that this system could fail and haven't come up with anything.

Hotwiring ignition ??  *problem* *warn* *angry*

John

Maybe I worded that wrong. What I meant was, before I installed this valve on a ridiculously expensive Vincent engine, I made sure there was no way it could fail. I'm still satisfied that this is the case. The key in valve idea works.

There are at least two manufacturers making oil shut offs with ignition cut out interlock switches as part of the valve. These I would put in the category of quite safe, but still subject to failure should the switch fail to do it's job.
Would probably stick to the drain and fill plan rather then take a chance with one of these.
The riskiest of all has to be the "auto" type when used on the feed side . Not sure why these are even built.

Fortunately, my new to me A10 must have had some work done, because it doesn't wet sump at all. The bike has been sitting for two months now and the tank is still full.

Glen
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: shuswapkev on 09.12. 2015 10:05

  I converted my 1950  A10 to the A65 style valve... for that you should split the cases...
 and it can stand for about 2 weeks...
I have the alloy sump plate with drain plug...and use that...also drilled the drain bolt and put a rare earth magnet in..
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 16.12. 2015 22:10
First thing to do is replace the spring.
Oddly enough people strip down their engines replace every thing except the spring that spends every second of running time compressed a tiny bit surrounded by hot oil.

Next, fit an extended sump that has the drain bolt in the side using longer studs not supplied bolts.
Fit it with the drain bolt pointing to the left, thus it is easier to remove while on the side stand and if inadvertently left out will blow oil onto hot left pipe and become most obvious before covering the rear tyre with oil
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: worntorn on 29.12. 2015 03:23
Here's my shut off. The bike won't start without turning on the ignition and the only ignition key is also the handle for the oil shut off ball valve. If you want to start the bike, you must first turn on the valve so that it will release the key.
Glen

(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff397/worntorn1/th_20150721_214936-1_zps7sgfcwjg.jpg) (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/worntorn1/media/20150721_214936-1_zps7sgfcwjg.jpg.html)
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: Peter in Aus on 29.12. 2015 13:27
I think Viking has hit the nail on the head the oil pump is a lot of the problem with wet sumping they leak like a sieve.
Peter
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: kommando on 21.01. 2016 10:12
I use a non return valve but I modified it before fitting, the spring is set to only just hold back 18" of oil in a tube so really light, the seat is rubber for a better seal and less chance of sticking. Before I start off I run the engine long enough for the return to be fresh oil in case it is sticking. Must be 20 odd years now with no problems, there is a risk but I have tried to make sure they are minimised.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: hdawson on 10.02. 2016 11:33
After  much agonizing over what to do with the weeping Super Rocket, I bit the bullet and simply fitted a ball valve to the oil inlet line.

I simply can't run the BSA frequently enough to keep the sump from filling and am reluctant to replace the original oil pump with a modern item.

I'm not sure about the issue of an air block (spurious?) or the argument that an engine requires maximum lube at startup - surely the sump is never dry.

Understanding the obvious risk involved, I have always checked my oil return to the tank on my start up routine anyway, and will always  do so.

Keen to hear your opinions.


Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: Topdad on 10.02. 2016 12:36
fingers crossed it keeps working *eek*
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: cyclobutch on 10.02. 2016 12:59
I believe that the ball valve that I fitted on mine was the cause of sudden catastrophic failure. I had not checked oil return before heading off and the engine seized solid within the first half mile of that journey. Good luck, and do always check that return.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: muskrat on 10.02. 2016 13:19
Sounds of a broken record *ex*
The ball valve probably cost more and took longer to fit than a sump plate with a plug. The sump plate with plug won't destroy your motor. Takes just a few minutes to drain the sump but a long time and $$$ to rebuild a motor.
Cheers
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: orabanda on 10.02. 2016 13:41
I'm with Musky.
Fit the sump plate, get down on your knees and bow in homage to your steed every time you take the plug out to drain it. The bikes appreciate the worship.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: hdawson on 11.02. 2016 06:36
Thanks for your feedback guys.
I have always had a sump plug.
I don't know why they were not fitted from new.
Oil changing must be a pretty  messy affair without one.
I don't have a centre stand and when parked on the sidestand so much oil weeps onto the shed floor it's absurd.
I was at my wits end so fitted the $5 ball valve in half an hour.
Hardly a drip now.
By the way,the foot has a stress fracture from repeated kicks when hot.( second kick starter when cold)
Can't wait to solve that little problem.
Has anyone tried aerostart?
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: cyclobutch on 11.02. 2016 08:54
Sounds of a broken record *ex*

Yeah sorry. It still hurts is all.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: duTch on 11.02. 2016 09:35

 Am not a fan of this idea, I think I've said it before, and will likely suggest it again; if you don't get to ride  it much, why not drain the oil tank into a container if you think you're not going out again soon, and re-add it when you go out next. I can't see it matters if it's in a container different to the oil tank... *????*    You could even drain the oil through some kind of filter each time.
   

 If doing this, there's no need to even have to drain the sump if done early enough.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.02. 2016 09:36
Quote
Has anyone tried aerostart?

oh yes many times on diesels and occasionally on petrol engines but never on a bike.
now the thing is it has a reputation of once used the engines get hooked on it, never subscribed to that myself, I reckon if you need it then the engine needs looked and if it isn't looked at then the starting problem is going to remain the same and your going to need aerostart - simples.

Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: duTch on 11.02. 2016 10:17

 
Quote
now the thing is it has a reputation of once used the engines get hooked on it, never subscribed to that myself, I reckon if you need it then the engine needs looked and if it isn't looked at then the starting problem is going to remain the same and your going to need aerostart - simples.

 I overlooked this issue- occasionally I get lazy/complacent, and I get a kick-back *bash*(need a kick-back unsmiley *????*).

      Then I revert to the "roll over to TDC ker-chunk" and give a solid shove- no probs (generally)
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: magicflem on 16.02. 2016 00:32
NO, NO, NO, NEVER, NEVER EVER fit any sort of tap, valve or other device in the oil feed line.
Don't listen to anyone telling you different - Better to wet sump than to blow an engine.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: stu.andrews on 16.02. 2016 11:37
I had a A7 with an engine that was badly damaged by the previous owner fitting a ball valve in the supply, which then stuck & starved the engine of oil. Fortunately repaired by the previous owner.  A factor that owners forget is that when starting, they, quite rightly check the return flow. BUT, to begin with, that flow is only what has collected in the crankcase. It does not mean that oil is being pumped into the engine. One must continue to check until spurts of oil continue from the return pipe for some while to ensure oil is being pumped into the engine & scavenged back.
As has been said before:-  Ball Valve- No, No, No, Sump Drain Plug- Yes, Yes, Yes. Get on your knees & worship. If you are married, you will be used to it!
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: hdawson on 17.02. 2016 10:32
Great feedback guys.
Thanks to all.
Great idea dutch regarding draining the tank post ride.
I might put in a tap to do just that.
But the same logic implies that I may forget to fill the tank before the next ride.
Some guys always have to learn the hard way.


Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: East_Coast_BSA on 27.02. 2016 22:40
SRM Sump plate with a drain bolt-the ONLY safe way!

I went this route.  If the bike sits for more than a week, I'll drain it.  Less than a week, there isn't enough to worry about.  Simple and Safe.
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: duTch on 28.02. 2016 09:39

 
Quote
Great idea dutch regarding draining the tank post ride.
I might put in a tap to do just that.
But the same logic implies that I may forget to fill the tank before the next ride.
Some guys always have to learn the hard way.

 I really don't think it's such a good idea, but has to be better than some hair-brained ideas and I don't and have no need to do it, but is simply an option. Obviously one would strap the oil container to the crank peddle or twist grip....or similar *dunno*

 One thing I have done, is utilise a length of 3mm SS filler rod (welding wire), cut some grooves in it for level indicators and leave it in the oil tank as a dip stick; surely people look in there occasionally to check the level, like before use..??
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: worntorn on 05.03. 2016 07:01
Here is the key-in-valve setup.
Hadn't started the bike three months, no problem, just turn it on and go, no oil on the floor, no messy draining and refilling, no smoking engine due to over filled sump.
Glen

this is the off position. You need to use the ignition key to turn the valve off. Once off, the key won't come away from the valve until oil flow is turned on again
(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff397/worntorn1/th_20150721_214936-1_zps7sgfcwjg.jpg) (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/worntorn1/media/20150721_214936-1_zps7sgfcwjg.jpg.html)

On position. I leave it like this unless the bike is going to sit for an extended period.

(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff397/worntorn1/th_20150721_214858_zpslicayryv.jpg) (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/worntorn1/media/20150721_214858_zpslicayryv.jpg.html)
Title: Re: oil feed on/off tap v anti-sump valve
Post by: hdawson on 06.03. 2016 04:42
Nice work Glen.
The solution to the random rider's curse.