The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Clutch, Primary, Gearbox => Topic started by: peter small on 08.12. 2015 12:54

Title: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 08.12. 2015 12:54
Anyone had this happen its driving me insane.

The bike is a swing arm Road Rocket standard box.
Its fitted with a 6 spring clutch which is new New cables, just replaced the clutch rod and adjuster.
I have the actuating lever set up correctly with slight play on the rod.

But riding and keeping the clutch in the lever has more play and eventually the clutch drags until i take the slack up on the cable again this is the sixth time ive had to do it.
Do i carry on doing it or is it something else, never had this on other bikes i own.

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: a101960 on 08.12. 2015 13:24
Sounds like the rod ends have not been hardened
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: terryg on 08.12. 2015 13:40
Agree with a101960.

By the time I realised what was going wrong I found the rod ends looking like mushrooms. The rod ended up too short after reshaping, so I cut it in two and put a ball bearing between the two halves. Of course, after hardening 4 ends!
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: duTch on 08.12. 2015 15:55

 I sometimes have a similar thing, for various reasons and doing it again lately. I have an adjuster on the handlebar lever, and find that if it's not 'locked' in the 'notch' it vibrates loose.  Last week it didn't do the trick so addressed it differently and found the pushrod adjuster was loose, but I think it was because I'd been fiddling with it and forgot to tighten it properly. It won't in your case be, but I also found a flat-spot on its ball, and trying to determine if it may be ok if the flat-spot stays engaged with the rod end *eek*.

 Otherwise, I've had a bit of an ongoing issue with one of the pressure springs undoing. It was all OK when I checked in conjunction with  above, but the little tabs on the spring adjuster nuts that engage with the spring ends to stop undoing (I guess that's the intent) are worn away, but previously was I think due to using five friction plates (as per parts list), but the springs don't engage enough, so I dropped one of each out and it's much better(six spring Plunger model, new plates).
 I think I asked a while ago about clutch springs, as I bought new ones from DragAnFly, and received right-hand wound ones(even though I specified L/H *rant*), and all the others I have are left-hand wound, so wonder if they are in fact any different in service. I haven't used them yet.
  Can't think of any other possibilities for you  at this stage......


Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: Klaus on 08.12. 2015 16:09
I agree with the others, the rod is worn.

But if its not the rod, have a look at the cluth, is realy bolt on and fix at the taper.

cheers Klaus
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: cyclobutch on 08.12. 2015 16:37
Unlikely, but I have had it on my James where the nipple was gradually easing itself off the cable. Took a few adjustments before it popped off.
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: metalflake11 on 08.12. 2015 16:48
The only time this has happened to me, the clutch nut had come loose.
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: Greybeard on 08.12. 2015 16:54
...I bought new ones from DragAnFly, and received right-hand wound ones(even though I specified L/H *rant*)
Is that necessary because you are south of the Equator; like bath water spinning down the plug-hole the other way?
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 08.12. 2015 17:42
Wow what a lot of replies

The old rod was  worn i did harden it but problem persisted so i renewed the rod and the adjuster so that it was all new, 2 days ago.
The clutch basket outer/  inner pressure  plate and all the plates bearings springs nuts friction an plain plates are new.

There`s no adjuster on the bars only able to adjust at the gearbox.
The push rod adjuster i wound in until it touched and then wound it back 1/4 of a turn

I did set the pressure plate up with a D.T.i and it runs true so much so at tick over the rear wheel does not rotate at all.

I suppose i will have to continue until the cables sort themselves out or the clutch falls off.

Pete

Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: muskrat on 08.12. 2015 18:43
G'day Pete.
All good answers above. Others include poor quality inner cable stretching or outer compressing. All things expand when hot so maybe the stack of plates are growing. Does adjustment return once everything has cooled?
Cheers
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 08.12. 2015 21:50
Good day
Haven`t checked whether it returns as normal when cooling Ive been carrying the spanners round with me to adjust it to get home.
Im off out on it tomorrow so i will check it to see if it reverts to original adjustment.

Cheap cable might be a cause i usually fit the PTFE liners.

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: Klaus on 09.12. 2015 08:43


There`s no adjuster on the bars only able to adjust at the gearbox.
The push rod adjuster i wound in until it touched and then wound it back 1/4 of a turn



Pete


I'm little confused you said there is no adjuster.
As l know, iff there is no adjuster at the levers, an adjuster is fit at the cable screwed in the gearbox cover.


cheers Klaus
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 09.12. 2015 19:16
Today a forty mile ride
Still have a problem the new rod has mushroomed at the adjuster end not hard enough.
The adjuster is on the gearbox only.
Onto the supplier tomorrow.
Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 16.12. 2015 22:01
Supplier awaiting new stock of push rods hardened the old one but problem still there.
Decided ive had enough of the 6 spring clutch
So ive ordered a 4 spring clutch to replace it.
Let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: cyclobutch on 17.12. 2015 12:43
Where did you order the 4 spring from? Thanks.

Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 17.12. 2015 16:06
Kiderminster motorcycles

Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 21.12. 2015 14:00
Clutch has just arrived by courier full clutch including push rod hardened one end so you can cut it and harden to correct length.
A primary case gasket
All for the price of £295.00 inc delivery

Just waiting for the 6 spring locking plate to arrive

All good fun
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: chaterlea25 on 21.12. 2015 18:22
HI Peter,
I'm presuming "4 spring locking plate" not 6??

I dont bother with them, some threadlock on the threads is a better bet
I dont know if you read the guide I wrote on the fitting of primary drive parts,? its not always straightforward
Heres a link to it
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=9646.msg70166;topicseen#msg70166

Happy Christmas
John
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 21.12. 2015 22:39
John

I already have a 4 spring locking ring, its getting the 6 spring off i dont have spare plates to diy one and i dont want to ruin the 6 springer so ordered one not dear
just makes the job easier.
Thanks for the link very interesting i will certainly check alignment.
The kit has locking washers roller bearings x 20 new nut and washer.
The engine has a new chain and drive sprocket so no need to change just adjustment needed.
I am sure i have seen a better oil  seal carrier behind the clutch but i dont know who sells them any ideas.

Happy Christmas

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: chaterlea25 on 21.12. 2015 23:25
Hi Pete,
Ooops *ex* my misreading of your post, 
Usually the six spring centre nuts are not tight ?? theres always a first time though
In the photos you can see my home made locking tool,
Phil Pearson the Goldie Guru makes a sliding plate with a bush and seal,
But, I think these are designed to work with his own clutch ?? Not sure on this?

There are several ways to improve the sealing on the sliding plate,
I have made a few different versions which are a definite improvement on the original

SRM sell a felt ring that fits between the adaptor and sliding plate ??

An improved oil resistant foam seal can replace the big felt, ( which always leaked profusely on mine)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-GOLD-STAR-B31-B33-A7-A10-PRIMARY-CHAIN-CASE-IMPROVED-SEAL-42-7504-/172034761152?hash=item280e1221c0:g:wj8AAOxyYANTYklW

I saw a post somewhere pointing out a very possible leak path between the two parts of the sliding plate
a run of sealer around the joint will help a bit there
A "perfect" seal at the sliding plate will then require a case breather *work* *pull hair out*

HTH
John

Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 23.12. 2015 16:01
Seal on order
A question while i have the primary to bits has anyone fitted a larger engine sprocket i believe 21 teeth is standard. 19 T for side car use.
I would probably go for a one tooth increase.
If you have what advantages or disadvantages in doing it or should i leave well alone.

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: chaterlea25 on 23.12. 2015 18:56
Hi Peter,
My experience is that an increase to 22 (or 23 teeth on the Super Rocket) is well worthwhile
Going back to my guide these sprockets can come with varying width shoulders which affect sprocket alignment
This may help or hinder the alignment  *????* *????*
Is anything straightforward *????*  *conf* *conf*

John
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 24.12. 2015 10:18
Out of curosity exactly how are you hardening the tip of the pushrod ?
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 24.12. 2015 11:57
No problem
I have a professional plumbers torch a  Rothenberger Torch runs on propane which takes the rod end up to a bright cherry red. i then quench in oil , i did temper the first one to a light straw colour but on the second attempt i didn't bother.
I have seen people quench in water but thats a bit severe can cause chipping as the end although hard become brittle.

Its also very good at heating up casings to remove bearing etc. isn't bad at soldering plumbing fitting either.

Pete

Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 27.12. 2015 07:51
OK Pete,
Try this.
Heat about a 1/2" of the rod to bright red.
Count to 20 then quench in oil
When cold, try to sratch the end with a file or stanley knife blade.
If you can scratch it it is not hard

Once satisified it is hard, polish the rod clean then heat the rod about 1 to 1.5" away from the tip and back temper to brown/blue
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 27.12. 2015 21:48
Trevor
I will bear in mind that hardening process when i harden the new rod for the 4 spring  clutch , however my next stumbling block is the 6 spring clutch adaptor on the gearbox shaft why they didn't use the same principle as Triumph and use an internal thread beats me i have 3 of those various sizes.
I dont really want to buy an extractor just to use it once, my mates dont have one so i am scratching my head again must not  damage the shaft.

Anyone got an idea i have spare 3 leg pullers i can customize. just a thought can use heat


Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: chaterlea25 on 27.12. 2015 23:43
Hi Peter,
A gearbox sprocket nut from a C11 four speed will thread onto the centre,
then the 3 legged puller can be used

Just another bit of random BSA info *conf2*
John
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 28.12. 2015 11:10
I have a small bearing seperator that will go behind the clutch hub then it is out with the rattle gun.
Because of the jerky nature of rattle guns they generally will pull anything off no problems.
Quite by accident a long time ago, being lazy I used the rattle gun to tighten the hub puller and low & behold, the hub just popped off.
So the hub tool which is really only meant to be a preloader, actually pulls the hubs off.
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 28.12. 2015 18:51
Good suggestions all round thought i would give it a gentle tap half time in the football  with the hide hammer. you guessed it fell off.
Great joy

Now for drive sprocket and nut removal

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 04.01. 2016 17:03
Clutch is on, easy job i didn't fit the tab washer as advised loctite and torqued to 65 ft ibs.
Unfortunately the levers i bought the cam adjuster doesn't fit replacement on the way,
new clutch cable. nothing of the old 6 spring set up left.
22T engine sprocket next job hope it all lines up does with the standard 21T. chain is new pretty new.

I just hope it all works out
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 04.01. 2016 21:36
Think i might need advice i bought the complete four spring clutch but what i didnt get is a thrust washer like they have on the Triumph T120`s that fits against the adaptor for the roller bearings.
Do they have one on this conversion.



Pete

Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: chaterlea25 on 04.01. 2016 21:44
HI Peter,
The "normal" 4 spring clutch does not have the A65 type thrust washer
It will only fit the SRM shaft adaptor
I am not aware if any other manufacturers have copied this ?

HTH
John
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 04.01. 2016 22:00
That`s put my mind at rest its not an SRM clutch adaptor,
Ive been watching Triumph clutch baskets being replaced on you tube , 3 and 4 spring Triumph clutches have thrust washers that`s what made me think i should have one.

thanks for quick reply

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 12.01. 2016 22:15
So far so good
Have decided on one tooth more on the engine sprocket 22T all lined up and enough slack in the chain to connect it all up.
I did find that the adjustment of the primary chain was hit and miss, as soon as i tightened the gearbox at the bottom mounting the chain went tight,
I had the bottom mounting pretty tight at the end to stop this happening.

Has anyone bought and used the SRM alloy clutch pressure plate with the roller bearing on the end of the push rod.

Is it worth £70

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: duTch on 13.01. 2016 02:43

 Moto Guzzi Big Twins use a similar arrangement, tophat ~€40, radial thrust bearing ~€10...
   http://www.stein-dinse.biz/eliste/index.php   (http://www.stein-dinse.biz/eliste/index.php)
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: a101960 on 13.01. 2016 08:01
Quote
Has anyone bought and used the SRM alloy clutch pressure plate with the roller bearing on the end of the push rod.

Is it worth £70
Yes, and yes, a well made piece of kit that works very well. John
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: scotty on 13.01. 2016 17:16
I have the complete SRM 4 spring clutch kit with said pressure plate

It's well made and fits / works well....IMHO worth the money

FYI
Some clever bloke on the forum recently posted a modification using a standard 4 spring pressure plate like yours and a Suzuki radial needle roller lift bearing at the end of the push rod
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=9505.msg68877#msg68877
Not suggesting you modify your new unit but interesting way of achieving the same as the SRM pressure plate

S
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 14.01. 2016 01:29
SOP to fit somthing like that to all clutches I work on.
Some I have been forced to make mself as back then the Devimead ( now SRM ) kit was only available for A65's.
Now days you can get an alloy pressure plate for just about everything and the top hat lifter is std on everything that comes out of Japan, Italy & probably China.
So you can usually find something at a bike beakers that will fit or can be maodified to fit.'Just the top hat & bearing alone make a massive difference as the plate is forced to lift reasonably square.
Combined with the alloy plate you end up with a 2 finger clutch as you can back off the springs a long way now te plate is lifting and pressing in square.
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 14.01. 2016 13:15
Thanks lads have it on order.

Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 15.01. 2016 19:36
Well it arrived and looks the business just setting it up

Hope the weather breaks to try it out



Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 25.03. 2016 18:25
Well what can i say
Thanks you  all the help on deciding how to make the Rocket better.
The extra tooth engine sprocket allows me to cruise at 3000 revs at a speed of 60 mph and it pulls sweetly through the gears loads of top end speed left.
The 4 spring clutch with the SRM pressure plate is so slick
It allows me to select neutral when ever i want too. Just like a modern clutch,
Just glad i binned the six spring clutch.

Cant stop riding the bike lol.
62 years old and it goes like a Rocket

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: chaterlea25 on 25.03. 2016 21:20
Hi Peter,
Thanks for the feedback *smile*
Enjoy the bike !!

John
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 25.03. 2016 21:41
I bought the 4 spring BSA clutch from

 Kidderminster Motorcycles
 60-62 Blackwell Street
 Kidderminster
 DY10 2EE
 United Kingdom

 Phone: 01562 66679
 Fax: 01562 825826

 E-mail: kmc4bsa@hotmail.com

Paid i think £280 but i bought the plain steel pressure plate which i have no use for with the SRM plate.

 
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: Topdad on 29.03. 2016 16:40
Don't you just love a happy ending  *wink2* bet you can't stop grinning when you are riding the bike enjoy.
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 30.03. 2016 20:06
Thanks for the reply.
I did until the HT lead came loose on the mag pick-up it came unscrewed,
Do i stop or get home on one, not knowing what had happened.
On one didn't want to stop motor it did happen when i was overtaking, bit scary.
old bikes who would have them.

Still grinning.
I decided it will be at Stafford show April.

Pete
Title: Re: continually adjusting clutch cable
Post by: peter small on 26.11. 2016 21:46
Just to update my clutch change.
Have now covered over 2000 miles and haven't had to adjust anything . The clutch is fantastic so light all my mates are switching to the 4 springer/srm pressure plate.
I've even fitted the SRM plate to my 1966 Bonnie.
The increase engine gear to 22T gives a great cruising speed just above the dreaded vibration revs. 2 up with the dog in the back box. 60mph and above is easily achieved.
Its made it a different bike a pleasure to ride.
 
Pete