The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: petetherev on 30.12. 2015 15:24
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Hello everybody, Is there any way of testing an Lucas MCR2 Voltage Regulator on the bench. I'm trying to make my mind up whether to go 12 Volt or not. I have two regulators neither have been used for at least 35 years. I would have thought that as long as they had electrical conductivity it would be just a matter of adjustment once I get the engine running.
Any ideas please.
Regards
Pete
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Once upon a time, my real-life setup.
Fine for adjusting cutout, voltage etc. Used some light bulbs to drain\test battery\charging.
(https://www.a7a10.net/BSA/techpics/powertest.jpg)
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Pete,
The first things to do are to measure the resistances.
Measure between "D" & "F". You should have something close to 0. Press down the regulator armature and you should get over 35 ohms.
Measure between "D" & "A". Should be open circuit. Press down cut-out armature and should be close to 0.
Read the service sheet and do all of the adjustments with feeler gauges.
Driving a generator with a drill and adjusting as per a10gf is the way to go.
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A lot lot lot earier to adjust off the bike thn on the bike, unless you have the DT's and can get them in sync with the motor vibrations
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A lot lot lot earier to adjust off the bike thn on the bike, unless you have the DT's and can get them in sync with the motor vibrations
*eek* You have a early start to New Year celebrations Trev? *whistle*
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Have you ever seen me at the ALL British with a drink in hand ?
Usually the pile of empty red bottles is too high.!!
And actully went to bed last night at 9pm when I got back from working on Shanes shed
Worked on it all day todayy but we should be finished tomorrow.
I could never get the M20 reg to work so took it over to Scotty to look at.
Liked his set up and looking at doing something similar.
For the Dynamo I was using ( wrong for both bike & regulator ) there was a 1/4 turn total adjustment from not working at all and melting the solder.
No chance of doing that with the box under the seat bouncing around.
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Hello, Thank you who replied, I shall do As Trevinoz suggests. If the regulators I have will work and only need to be adjusted I think I will stay with 6 Volt. If I have to go to the expense of buying a new regulator I shall probably got to 12 Volt. I'm not going to be riding at night so the better light are not an issue it was only the availability of bulbs etc.
Thanks once again and have a Happy New Year. I will let you know the results I get.
Regards
Pete
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Hello, as I said in my original post I have two MCR 2 regulators with different numbers and years of manufacture. I have tested them both as suggested by Trevinoz with the following results.
Number 37097E FD 0.2 ohms Pressed down 35.2 ohms
Year 1963 FA Open Pressed down 0.7 ohms
Number 37144A FD 4.30 ohms Pressed 50.10 ohms
Year 1952 FA Open Pressed down 0.80 ohms
I have attached a photo of them, the one on the left is 37097E
As it seems that at least one complies with the figures provided by Trevinoz I think i will stay with 6 Volt.
I will also rig up something to set it on the bench as advised by BSA-54A10.
Thanks once again
Pete
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Just as well, Pete, the 37144 is for a 45W generator.
Just one more thing to test before you get into it, momentarily apply a 12V supply between "D" & "E" and ensure that both armatures operate. Don't take too long about it!
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Also, when you set the regulator, use the RB107/8 settings as this is what your regulator's mechanism is.
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Hello, Thank you who replied, I shall do As Trevinoz suggests. If the regulators I have will work and only need to be adjusted I think I will stay with 6 Volt. If I have to go to the expense of buying a new regulator I shall probably got to 12 Volt. I'm not going to be riding at night so the better light are not an issue it was only the availability of bulbs etc.
Thanks once again and have a Happy New Year. I will let you know the results I get.
Regards
Pete
Been a long while sice I have been to Scottys ( cause he does a good job ) but from memory he had an endless flat belt that he placed around the outside of the chuck.
The dynamo was clamped to the tool post holder and the saddle run foreward till the slide was past the end of the chuck then the belt got slipped over the armature and he backed out the slide till the belt was just tight enough not to slip.
Quite a simple and eligant way to set things up I thought at the time.
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Hello Trevinoz, Thank you for your info, I am assuming that the 37097E is correct for a 60W generator. I cleaned the regulator and set the mechanical settings in accordance with a Lucas Servicing Testing Procedures publication No. T.P.C./SB.1007A Reprinted December 1964. I found it in the bottom of an old tool box, I’ve had for years. It covers models amongst others MCR2, RB107 & RB 108.
As a result the resistance for FD has increased to 45 ohms FA remained the same, I have flashed 12 volts across FD and both armatures operated (vibrated), I am assuming that this is good?
I am however a little confused regarding the numbering. You said to set the regulator as for an RB 107/8, is this a subset for MCR2 or a different model altogether? The confusing thing is MCR 2 on the case along with 37097E.
The only MCR 2 replicas seem to be advertised.
Regards
Pete
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Sorry to confuse you, Pete. Your regulator is an MCR2 but the late production model used the same mechanism as the RB107.
The FD resistance should only be high when the armature is pressed down. It should be as close to zero as possible in the rest position, if not the generator will not start to operate.
I gather that you flashed 12V across DE, not DF. It is good that both armatures reacted.
Your other regulator is the original MCR2 type but is for a 45W generator as I said, the difference being in the number of turns of heavy conductor on the regulator bobbin.
7 turns for 45W, 5 turns for 60W.
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Hello, Thanks for the clarification, I have had the bike for nigh on 50 years. It was virtually impossible to get any information in those days so it was a case of trial and error without to much concern about the consequences, the ignorance of youth! The last time I rode it was in 1987 and not much then. 18 months ago I decided to rebuild it, with a lot more knowledge, or access to it, and a little bit more money. I have just ordered a kit to rebuild the dynamo the fun will come sett the regulator, I think I will take the advice given and make up some sort of rig to set it up.
Thanks once again
Regards
Pete
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Yo Pete, I bought an aftermarket one which is as Trev says; kinda seems to be a bit of a 'hybrid'. I made up a set of extension jumpers so I can take the reg off the bike and connect Volt meter and adjust as per instructions; just need to do it in bursts until I rig a air blower...
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Hello again Trevinoz, I have refurbished (new field armature etc) my dynamo and checked out the regulator and I’m already to fit them.
I thought I would check out the other regulator I have, the one you said was for a 45w generator, its cold here and I can do it inside.
I think that the cover which showed the type, number, date etc. has been changed. The BSA Service Sheet 804 Reprinted May 1960 refers to both the MCR1 and the MCR2. It quotes different electrical and mechanical settings for both. My problems is where is says :-
“Adjust if necessary to 0.025” (0.012” – 0.020” ), by removing shims “H” at the back of the fixed contact on an MCR1 regulator or by bending the fixed contact bracket on the MCR2 regulator.”
The figures in brackets refer to the MCR2 regulator. My regulator has shims therefore I conclude it must be an MCR1. The number stamped on the frame is 333141A and 10 52 which I assume is the date. Is there any way to confirm my thoughts please. I think the Lucas numbering system is a nightmare.
Sorry to be such a pain.
Regards
Pete
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Your regulator is an MCR2, the MCR1 is a smaller version on the same platform and has a smaller steel cover. There is also an MCR which was only made for a couple of years and is a bit different to the MCR1.
The MCR2 has shims as you have found. It's up to you whether you bend the contact or remove/add shims, depending on the clearance.
The first thing you should do with the regulator contacts is remove both and clean the surfaces, I usually use an oil stone.
The cut-out contacts are silver and are pretty easy to clean, unlike the regulator's tungsten.
If you want to convert it to 60W, just take two turns off the bobbin.
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Hello Trevinoz, Thanks once again, You obviously have a lot of knowledge of regulators. I don't know what I'll do with it yet as the Regulator does not react to the DE test you advised. I can only assume that the coil has failed. I might take it apart and see if I can find the fault. If nothing else it keeps me out of mischief.
Regards
Pete
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Pete,
The DE test is testing the two shunt coils which are connected at one end to the bobbin which is at the same potential as the frame and the other to the earth terminal.
Normally you should get around 30 ohms resistance if both coils are OK, much higher if one is OK and infinity if both are open circuit.
You could lift the connections from the E terminal and try individually which will show whats what.
If they are open circuit I'm afraid that you will probably need donor coils from another regulator.
It's a fiddly job to change them as it means complete dismantling of the regulator.
I have done this successfully many times, sourcing components from regs which are badly rusted and have the resistor open circuit.
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Hello Trevinoz, I have taken the 45W (MCR2)regulator apart and found the regulator coil broken where it attaches to the coil. As I had nothing to lose I unwound it a turn cleaned the end of the wire and wound it around the mounting stud and put it back together and got it to both armatures to work. I got a DE resistance of 1.2 ohms. I only did this for the exercise I have no intention of using it, I have always liked tacking things apart and finding out how they work and put together.
The 60W(RB107) which is the one I am/was going to use gave me a DE reading of 14 ohms.. Does this low resistance reading mean that this one is US as well or is there any way I can improve the resistance by cleaning and re-soldering the connections.
Regards
Pete
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Pete,
I measured some resistances D-E on a few regs.
The MCR2 are all around 24 ohms.
One RB107 type was 28 Ohms and two others were around 14 Ohms.
I am not clear as to where the break was, the heavy winding or the fine and where exactly.
Not sure why the resistance is so low, overhaul the reg and see. If both armatures move I would expect the reg to work.
With 1.2 Ohm resistance, a fairly heavy current would flow and some heat would be generated.
Keep at it.
Cheers.
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Hi Trevinoz, The broken winding was the light one inside the coil, as I said I took a turn off and cleaned up the wire drilled a small hole in the insulation fed the wire through ans wound it around the stud, reassembled the coil and rebuilt the regulator, it was only to see what happened I might have been able to make a better connection by removing the insulator where I had drilled the hole and soldered the wire. I might try it sometime.
It is the RB107 which I’m more concerned about as I said the armatures both ‘snap shut’ at 14ohms. I’ll have to wait and see when I get to the starting the engine point.
Regards
Pete
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Hello Trevinoz, I’m sorry for not letting you know how I got on with my Voltage Regulator.
I put my back out at the beginning of last year and was laid up for quite a while. I then had to catch up with the normal maintenance jobs, as for this year I’ve no idea where its gone.
I cleaned the contacts reset the mechanical settings during the winter. I got the engine running so I decided to set the regulation on the bike, made up some extension leads, I thought 5minute job, I should have known better.
I set the Regulator as specified in the service sheets without any trouble, a nominal 8v.
The Cut Out is another story however. Start the engine, and the dynamo output at tick over is about 6.5v and the Cut Out contacts close and don’t open until I shut the engine off the. Adjusting the Cut Out screw does not have any effect. The battery voltage is about 6.2v
I told you I’d checked the DE resistance as you suggested and got 14ohms I have since tested the coils individually and get 28.4 for the Regulator and 27.1 for the Cut Out, seems about right to me, reconnected and got 13.7.
Any ideas please
Regards
Pete