The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Frame => Topic started by: Viking on 13.03. 2016 20:50

Title: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Viking on 13.03. 2016 20:50
http://www.vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/zenphoto/albums/VMOL%20wallpapers/british/RGS7.jpg

http://www.vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/features/stories/259-bsa-rocket-gold-star

Ummm.

The cream of Manchester.


Sorry the cream of Small Heaths



The cream of Manchester it this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCBF3523ACED48EC4&params=OAFIAVgB&v=KGg4uhGfgB0&mode=NORMAL
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: muskrat on 13.03. 2016 21:05
Thanks for posting that Viking.
Note the two different headlight brackets.
Cheers
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 13.03. 2016 21:46
Do I see two different front brakes?
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 13.03. 2016 23:34
Hi All,
Yes, two different front brakes and two different headlamp bracket setups were among the options available on the RGS models

John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: spanersc on 14.03. 2016 06:15
It would be nice to see the list of 'Additional Equipment' as mentioned on the leaflet, could that be reproduced and shown?  Regards, Peter
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: muskrat on 14.03. 2016 08:36
This is the basic list.
http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/g21.html
There has been a few discussions about the RGS, here is a good one from 6 years ago. http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=865.0
Cheers
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Viking on 14.03. 2016 20:36
The "ski slope" is/was chrome plated on the RGS
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 14.03. 2016 20:44
No it wasn't.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Rocket Racer on 15.03. 2016 03:41
whats the legend; they only made a couple of hundred but over a thousand have survived?
or something like that  *whistle*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: worntorn on 15.03. 2016 04:21
Every article I have read on the Rocket Goldstar states that it had this specially tuned much higher powered version of the Super Rocket engine.
This article infers that the 357 cam and nine to one CR are unique to the Rocket Goldstar.
In fact the Rocket Goldstar engine was the same engine as is in any same year West Coast Super Rocket.

And 315 pounds dry weight? Seems much too light given the minor differences between this bike and the Super Rocket.

Glen
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 15.03. 2016 20:22
Rocket engines were dyno tested and a report was part of the delivery documents to the buyer.
Maybe the best performing engines were used in the RGS.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: kiwipom on 15.03. 2016 20:42
Hi guys, the `Rocket Gold Star`  has a superior sounding name but the A65 that superseded it had everything that was special to RGStar engine, and could dick it for speed every day.
…I love the A10 looking engine and the clubman look build that is why I have a RGStar lookalike build but what is all the hype about, cheers
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Rocket Racer on 15.03. 2016 23:37
And even the Super rocket was billed as the highly tuned motor. "with extra chrome"
i'm no RGS expert but the alloy rims and 190mm hub would have lost some weight from the bike and many RGS had a siamese pipe so one less muffler in weight.
They also may have had a race silencer  *dunno* . But only marginally more power if any from a super rocket.
And as Muskrat alludes, the valve size limitations compared to the A65 meant what limited performance over a stock factory SR was most likely from Eddie Dows assembly not the pistons and cam.

Saw two genuine RGS's at the Nelson classic museum, nice but hard to justify the cost premium over a SR.
I guess if I came across one with some clear provenance I might be tempted

If you look at the spec for the American market Road Rockets in 54/55 (even twin carb options)  they had all the best bits and were years before the RGS
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Viking on 16.03. 2016 11:41
You can always fit the Detroit item on the fender:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZMNvi-XNN4


RGS is smart, but I prefer the TLS front brake, single monoblock carb. Works well and is easy to get in tune.
Hate the clip on handle bars. They are a pest in town driving, and not good for long trips… Except for Ton up cruise. SR and RGS are a bit underpowered for motorway speed race… anyway..
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 16.03. 2016 20:12
RR, race silencer was an option. Standard was a long cigar shaped item, Burgess I think.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: duTch on 16.03. 2016 21:10

 
Quote
whats the legend; they only made a couple of hundred but over a thousand have survived?
or something like that  *whistle*
         *smile* *smile*

  Any idea of just how many were genuine factory produced *????*

 
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 16.03. 2016 21:20
Hi Dutch,
Around 1700 were built by BSA

John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Rocket Racer on 16.03. 2016 21:28
Roy Bacon and Mick Walker both quote the RGS was 46hp with 4 more when fitted with special race silencer
identical base performance as the '62 SR
neither mention how many they made... just that "replica's" out number originals

but 1700! common as muck  *whistle*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 17.03. 2016 00:00
Ye'r only jealous *razz*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Topdad on 17.03. 2016 13:15
I'll have that kind of muck anyday ! *lol*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: roadrocket on 18.03. 2016 14:42
Hello Viking

Are you sure that the photo is factory issue? It does not fall in line with the other material from BSA in that period. I have seen it a couple of places on the internet, but always assumed it to be of recent date.

Cheers, Otto in DK
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Viking on 19.03. 2016 09:38
To Otto.

It looks like factory pictures.
But with RGS bikes, you can never be shure.

This look factory/dealer correct:

http://www.vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/zenphoto/albums/VMOL%20wallpapers/british/RGS4.jpg
With price label over old price label....

Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 19.03. 2016 13:32
Well actually it looks nothing like factory photo.
It looks like a modern center spread for a classic motorcycle magazine
Back in 62 it would have been near impossible to shoot the bikes against a red cyclorama.
Red is a very hard colour to photograph properly now .
There is sufficient red bleed in the chrome & alloy to confirm that were shot on red.
BSA Never did a publicity shoot with cables on a bike.
If a number plate was depicted on a bike it was either blank or was BSA with the capacity as the numbers as in the poster recreated on the top of this page.
All the 60's catalogues & publicity material were paintings which back then were cheaper to make & print than photos

It is not a single shot but two individual bikes photoshoped together.
You can see this by the location of the shadows or the lack of shadow as the case may be and inconsistencies in the reflections.
There is a crease line which has been poorly healed which runs down the ecenter of the seat passes through the piping dissappears into the amorphous black blob for the oil tank then runs through the muffler and  causes the front of the rear wheel to be misshaped
The photographer was using neon tubes is a soft box or window box if you like to illuminate the bike and the illumination is coming in from different angles on each bike.
This type of photographic illumination was invented in the 80's
The rear bike was shot from a high angle and the front bike was shot from tank badge level.
Both bikes were shot from a long distance using a long lense to avoid reflections of the photographer.
There has been no atempt at uplighting the engines which was always done in factory photos so the fins were illuminated full depth and do not appear as undefined blobs.
The whole image is soft, emotion stirring a style of photography that did not fall into common use till the 90's.
It says "the Legendry" not the "brand new & exciting "so again stinks of a rose coloured galsses magazine photo.
Quite possibly a recreation of some original factory material but definately not an original factory production.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Viking on 19.03. 2016 15:09
The picture with the two bikes looks constructed.

I noticed the hump in the rear tyre...

The drawing with the bike inkl. Sales prices lookes gut, but is it a factory
Issued drawing ?   

Good Q.   
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: RichardL on 19.03. 2016 15:51
Trevor,

 That's an interesting evaluation of the photo. I completely agree that it would not be a photo bY BSA but, just for my amusement, I am going to jump into the discussion and give it my two pence.

I can't really see this as a composite putting together images of two bikes. To match the background so closely, if shot separately, they would most likely need to have been in the studio at the same time and put against the same background. Why bother with separate shots if you have both bikes there at the same time? Then, it's hard to imagine the editor that did such a poor job patching the crease doing such a nice job overlapping the two bikes. Looking at my avitar picture, I don't think you will see where I took out telephone poles and cleaned up around the wheels, and I am a complete amateur. I think some of the shadows have been touched up, added and/or removed. Then, and maybe it's because I am such an amateur, I don't see the difference in shot elevation you've described.

As a side point, why would BSA show cables in the painted advert but not include them in a photo?

Thanks for sprouting the discussion.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: bsa-bill on 19.03. 2016 17:20
couple of points
I can't see a crease, which photo am I suposed to be looking at.
Secondly computers were in their infancy it this time, I don't know if Photoshop or any other capable programme was around, possibly but would have cost an arm and a leg
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Greybeard on 19.03. 2016 19:19
I believe this is the image that BSA_54A10 is describing. Looks suspect to me.
http://www.vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/zenphoto/albums/VMOL%20wallpapers/british/RGS7.jpg
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: bsa-bill on 19.03. 2016 19:56
cheers GB
 yes I see a mark on the far bike tool box, not sure I'd make it into a crease, the eye is one of the easiest of our senses to be fooled or to be correct what our brain makes of the image our eyes see is often false (more than we think).
Reflections can't be counted, who knows what lighting was used and how many lamps, similar with shading for the same reason

I'll reserve judgment  *eek*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 19.03. 2016 20:22
Hi All,
I seem to remember that the first pic was a centre spread or poster in Blassic Bike or similar magazine

????
John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: RichardL on 19.03. 2016 23:56
couple of points
I can't see a crease, which photo am I suposed to be looking at.
Secondly computers were in their infancy it this time, I don't know if Photoshop or any other capable programme was around, possibly but would have cost an arm and a leg

Bill,

Good point about computers in their infancy but when was this produced? (Can't check while thumb typing.) There is no crease (or whatever the flaw was) anymore, just distortion on a vertical line through the seat and, ultimately, tire of the bike on the right.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: roadrocket on 20.03. 2016 10:34
Since the crease runs down the middle, maybe it is a scan of the centrespread? I think it is firmly established both technically and aesthetically that the photo is not period.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 20.03. 2016 11:05
The photo of the two rockets is a composite photograph, reproduced in a motorcycle magazine then scanned and placed on the web.

When bikes go into a studio the photographer takes a lot more than 1 shot.

Still life photographers shoot things in brackets usually + & - a 1/2 stop because light meters are not as accurate as one would like.
Usually 3 shots but if the stylist is not quite sure they might do 10 going up and down a full stop in incriments,

Then the stylist will want it shot at different angles, different heights and with different lighting.
Nothing unusual to shoot 20 rolls of 36 images and only end up with 1 useable frame..
So yes the bikes were shot in the same studio against a corner which is curved at the join in the walls and curved again between the wall & floor.
And in this case it was a 3 wall cyc, you can see the missing wall in the refections. This is done to eliminate any horizon in the image so a backgrouns can be dropped in latter on of if it is product for a catalogue, like tyres or gloves, just the image of the object itself with clear clean lines. In movies this is the infamous "Blue Wall" shoot you hear about

The reflection of the light in the tank shows a clear white rectangle with a brighter white rectangle in the middle.
This is a box with shinny sides all round and a translucient diffuser in the front usually used to mimick window light on say a table of food and thus it was called a "Window box".
In this case they are illuminating the window box with neon tubes ( second brighter rectangle ) and these arer called Keno Flows , invented in the 80's to eliminate the flashing of a neon tube and to produce a tungsten coloured light as the film industry is standardised on tungsten light. Although they are generally used as back lighting to soften or remove shaddows.

The art director gives a photographer a brief and in this case it was "evoke the feeling of the 60's"
You look at the photo and you immediatly flash back to the 60's in your mind. The image does not say I AM GREAT BUY ME NOW which is what factory publicity photos would evoke.
The number plate is a dead give away.

So the magazine stylist gave the photographer a pile of old BSA catalogues so he could work out the framing.
The art director assembled the page to resemble a BSA advertisement with the bannar slogans and of course the second page spec sheet.

Some on has lifted the images , scanned them , fixed up the page joint & posted it on the web

Why paint in a cable but not photograph it ?
SHADOWS that make the bike look like it is broken or has a crack.
An artist does not need to paint in a shadow but the phtorapher has to shoot it so the shadow does not fall some where that ruins the image.
So the easy fix is to remove the offending cable.
Most bikes that appear in catalogues or publicity photos are not real bikes but preproduction prototypes so the advertising material could get distributed before the actual bikes arrived.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 20.03. 2016 11:31
couple of points
I can't see a crease, which photo am I suposed to be looking at.
Secondly computers were in their infancy it this time, I don't know if Photoshop or any other capable programme was around, possibly but would have cost an arm and a leg

Look at where the goldie muffler crosses in front of the wheel.
There is a break in the reflection which makes a grey vertical line.
The wheel rim behind has a flat spot and of course the tyre is a funny shape.
Folow the line in the muffler up to the reflection in th frame tube above the oil tank, again a break in the reflection where it should not be.
Directly above that the white piping on the seat has a little discontinious step in it and this leads to the broad grey line in the seat.
Some one has used the heal function in photoshop to remove a crease line and I rather think that it was not a center spread but an image tht spanned two pages thus the funny shape of the tyre.
When the images were stitched they did not bother to correct the dithering in the seat leaving that grey amorphous vertical blob.
There is also a discontinuity in both the top , bottom and reflection lines in the muffler.
Reflective chrome is one of the hardest things to work with in Photoshop.
Note also the rear chainguard.
It has been lit from the front, you can clearly see the reflections/ shadows of the spokes on it, but the muffler is lit from the top, as shown by the shadow line running along the middle the rear shock is lit from the rear the tank & engine is top lit but you can see light reflected on the tacho drive which should be in the shadow of the timing case
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: bsa-bill on 20.03. 2016 12:00
blew it up and adjusted colour in Paint.net, now I see it

Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: nimrod650 on 20.03. 2016 17:59
Hi guys, the `Rocket Gold Star`  has a superior sounding name but the A65 that superseded it had everything that was special to RGStar engine, and could dick it for speed every day.
…I love the A10 looking engine and the clubman look build that is why I have a RGStar lookalike build but what is all the hype about, cheers
money  ;)
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: RichardL on 20.03. 2016 18:22
Well, with a couple of 35mm SLRs, a good view camera and Trevor's guidebook I could start my own studio.  ;)

Richard L.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Topdad on 21.03. 2016 11:23
I looked at the picture and what struck me was the " price list for optional extras " or something similar confirmed to me that BSA's policy was the same with the RGS as everything else .... you can have it but at a cost . I'd like to know what the base model came with because my experience 4 yrs later of selling BSA/TRI group bikes was quite a few things you'd take for granted were" optional extra's "even on cooking models but I was surprised that for instance on a Bonnie ( I'll wash my mouth with soap shortly ) you didn't get a dual seat ,pillion rests or tacho as standard plus lots of other stuff I've forgotten ,interesting if you ordered without the "extras" delivery time went up !!  *conf2* .
 So anyone know just what was the starting point for the RGS ie just using one item as a reference point , was the 8" single sided brake the norm whereas you could have the 190mm as an extra or what ? , a list of those extras would be interesting and there prices . 
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: nimrod650 on 21.03. 2016 18:16
i understand that 1584 rgs were produced 61-63 272 were scramblers extras inc 190mm front brake rrt2 gearbox  and siamesed exhaust system adding another 30% to the price in the usa there wasnt a standard bike a such it was up to the owner what speck he wanted 10 specials went to the usa and one was fitted with a watsonian monaco sidecar for the earls court show
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 21.03. 2016 22:14
Hi Nimrod,
I would like to know where you got this information?

just curious
John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 22.03. 2016 11:09
Well, with a couple of 35mm SLRs, a good view camera and Trevor's guidebook I could start my own studio.  ;)

Richard L.

Not now days you won't
Studios went digital in the 90's
You will need around $ 4000 worth of digital camera gear and about the same in high end computers.
Then you need a fiber connection to the studio so the art director can see what your camera sees from their office, in real time.
This is after you and the art director have spent 1/2 calibrating your monitors so both show exactly the same colour.
I don't even think there is an E6 ( type of professional film ) processing lab left in Sydney any more.

This is the sort of stuff that is killing the Australian film industry and why things like fiber to the home is the only way to go for the future.
I had an avid editing suite in my client lis and that was amazing.
The editor is sitting in there, mixing anything up to 20 channels ( 20 screens ) in real time while the sound crew are adding the music in the room next door.
The whole thing is being beamed via satelite to Hollywood where the director, art director, continuity drector and 1/2 the actors managment staff are watching the cut in real time sending alterations down the line via skype back to the edit booth and that was 20 years ago.
An edit which used to take anything up to 6 months got done in a week without any one leaving home.
The longest bit was digitizing the celluloid which took 1/2 day per roll and there could be anything from 50 to 500 rolls in a 2 hour movie.
The satelite bills in the order of $ 1,000,000 + were not uncommon and then that was if you could book large enough blocks of continious time. Or the whole thing could be done via a fiber network for a few thousand  and funny enough a lot of editing is now being done in Korea for that reason.
Not that this has anything to do with A series twins so I wait for Musky to do some editing of his own.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: RichardL on 22.03. 2016 11:57
Trevor,

 If it wasn't obvious, I was being facetious about silver nitrate (although I know there are still traditionalists out there). I plan to respond further, but wrapped in world events this minute.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: duTch on 22.03. 2016 13:21

Quote
Not now days you won't
Studios went digital in the 90's
You will need around $ 4000 ....
.......>Not that this has anything to do with A series twins so I wait for Musky to do some editing of his own.

 So TrevorTrev, are you saying neither my Dads 'Vest Pocket Kodak-Model C', or my uncles 'SIX-20 BROWNIE C' ain't gonna quite make the cut...?
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: nimrod650 on 22.03. 2016 18:36
Hi Nimrod,
I would like to know where you got this information?

just curious
John
google bsa rocket gold star go to wikipedea site
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: muskrat on 22.03. 2016 18:54
Yes nimrod I found those same figures years ago and think they checked out OK. Then there is the Eddie Dow ones, but can't find a # for them.
Back on subject please fellas.
Cheers
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 22.03. 2016 19:39
Hi Nimrod
Wikepedia is the source of all untruths  *eek* *eek*

John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: nimrod650 on 22.03. 2016 20:25
Hi Nimrod
Wikepedia is the source of all untruths  *eek* *eek*

John
confirmed by brian pollet of the bsa owners club he may have seen it on wikepedia as well *smile* *smile*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 22.03. 2016 20:43
Hi Nimrod
BSA started the series with frame 101, mine is in the 1700's
 *????* *????* *????* *????* *????*

John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: kiwipom on 22.03. 2016 23:59
hi guys, don`t bother with(Wikipedia) just ask a  `Yorkshire man`cheers
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: nimrod650 on 23.03. 2016 18:00
hi guys, don`t bother with(Wikipedia) just ask a  `Yorkshire man`cheers
not many in yorkshire will be paying todays prices HOW MUCH *smile* *smile*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: spanersc on 24.03. 2016 20:50
Hi All followers. I would still love to see that list of additional items as mentioned on the leaflet. 'Prices of additional equipment see last paragraph of specifications'. Could the holder of the original leaflet add this to the posting, Please.  We could then deduce what the standard spec for an RGS was, perhaps!   Thanks,  Peter
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 24.03. 2016 23:29
Would this help?
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: beezermacc on 25.03. 2016 00:17
Mine is GA10 862 / DA10R 9964, May 1963. Dredged up from the River Mersey in 1980. One owner from new (yes, really!). Awaiting restoration. Just starting work on this bike. RRT2 gearbox restored by a well known restorer in Coventry, shafts and most gears OK, main body fixed, inner cover OK, outer cover replaced (same as STD).
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: RichardL on 25.03. 2016 01:04
So, did some ferry crossing the Mersey go down in '63 or '64 while transporting this bike, thus inspiring the song by Gerry and the Pacemakers?

Richard L.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Viking on 25.03. 2016 20:16
As far as I know, the RGS frame has a kink i RH side, because it was a GS frame
with SR motor and Clubman trim.
Has that kink "disappeared in the river "  :-)

Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: beezermacc on 25.03. 2016 20:22
The RGS frame never had a kink.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Viking on 25.03. 2016 20:43
All in all, the RGS is not that different from a A10 SR in US spec. :

http://bsa.hailwood.com/57a10srproof.html

Except the oldsmobile ornament on the front guard.  :-)
and the GS pipes and tank...

Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 25.03. 2016 21:56
Hi All,
Viking,
Theres a quite a list of different unique RGS parts,

They are listed in the attachment below,  some of the parts are priced

Beezermac,
I'm puzzled about the difference in frame number and date you gave between your RGS and mine
Did they make 900 odd between May and July 2 when mine was despatched or were random frame numbers  used in production *????* *????*
My engine is around 400 higher than yours   *????* *????* *????*


HTH
John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 25.03. 2016 22:56
Interesting, Andrew.
Note the inner primary cover has the short extension. not the long as some do.
Is the barrel the one with the different front fins? I was given one recently but it is so badly cracked around the flange that is irreparable, much to my disappointment. .020 over and not a broken fin!
Are the engine and frame a match? The engine number seems very high for the frame comparing it to numbers that I have collected over the years.
Do you have the story about how it came to be in the river?
Sorry about all of the questions but as I have had my RGS for over 40 years now, I have a keen interest in them.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: RichardL on 25.03. 2016 23:21
All in all, the RGS is not that different from a A10 SR in US spec. :

http://bsa.hailwood.com/57a10srproof.html

Except the oldsmobile ornament on the front guard.  :-)
and the GS pipes and tank...

I found the link posted by Viking to be interesting overall, but there were two things that jumped out at me. First, I didn't know that the basic '57 A7 was called a "Flash".  I thought it was just "A7". Now I have a name for my barn find. Second, the man named in the Illinois title document lived and died 60 miles from me. It really doesn't matter much or mean anything, but to add some depth to this coincidence of proximity, there is this: http://findagrave.com/cgi-bin//fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=74756963

Richard L.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 25.03. 2016 23:41
Richard, I think that the "Flash" designation for the A7 was an American market thing.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: RichardL on 25.03. 2016 23:56
Perhaps so, but mine is an American-market bike which I'm rather sure came in through BSA Incorporated of Nutley, NJ. So, based on the price list in the link, I think "Flash" is legitimately official in this case. I'll know exactly when BSAOCUK gets back to me with the birth certificate.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: beezermacc on 25.03. 2016 23:58
Hi Trev. The RGS has a dating certificate which confirms the engine and frame started life together. The bike was despatched to a dealership in Chester (UK) in May 1963 but was actually registered and sold by the Triumph dealer across the road. I've visited the county archives in Chester and seen (and have a copy of) the original registration record which confirms the frame number and registration plate. The barrel does have the staggered fins. I have a customer who knows the first owner of the bike. Whilst this seems an extraordinary coincidence I should point out that I, the original owner, the River Mersey, my customer, and Chester are all within 40 miles of each other so the bike didn't get far! When I bought the bike in 1981 I knew it had been in the river but I didn't uncover the bike's earlier history until I met my customer (who knew the original owner) last year. I have also met a guy who rode the bike when it was less than one year old. Sadly the bike was reported stolen approximately one year after it was purchased. The bike was dredged up from the River Mersey in 1980 and, as it was still fitted with the original registration plates, it is reasonable to assume it was taken for a joy ride and dumped, otherwise it would probably have been broken up for spares. The guys who retrieved it from the river bank were going to restore it together but, sadly one of them died, and the other lost interest. However, during their brief ownership in 1980 they managed to acquire a duplicate V5C registration certificate from the DVLA retaining the original registration number. DVLA will only do this if they have strong evidence that the bike is genuine. When I bought the bike I checked with the police that I was able to have good title to the bike as it had presumably been stolen. I was advised that, as DVLA had issued a registration document, there must be nobody else (including insurance companies) claiming title to the bike. Due to the time elapsed and the fact that I also have an 'all clear' HPI certificate I believe I have done everything I can to ensure nobody else can claim title to the bike. I've got more photos but didn't want to overload the site.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: RichardL on 26.03. 2016 00:46
I'm guessing the Mersey is brackish. How is the saltwater damage, if any?

Richard L.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Viking on 26.03. 2016 07:03
Interesting reading:

http://www.motos-anglaises.com/catalogues/eddie-dow_gold-star.pdf


RGS with a manager price:


https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20930/lot/265/

Uhh 8000-12000 £ over a super nice SR...   
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: beezermacc on 26.03. 2016 07:26
Hi Richard. Major components restorable, apart from magneto.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 27.03. 2016 20:26
Hi All,
This link with a copy of the letter from GSOC would seem to support the idea of "randomness"
on the production/despatch of RGS models  *????*
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=546381&page=4

GA10 1157 with engine DA10 9505,  despatched in March 63

So earlier frame and later engine than beezermacs  *????* *????* *????*

John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: bodger on 28.03. 2016 23:48
Several things noted, haha...good stuff here!

The pictures from the article posted way back up shows actually three versions of the front brake.
http://www.vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/features/stories/259-bsa-rocket-gold-star

   The two seen in the fancy red background page are the two factory brakes.
   The composite picture way at the end of that 'Vintage' article shows just a peek at the Eddie Dow 'Duetto'  2LS plate and the looping cable behind it (yipes!).
  http://www.vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/zenphoto/albums/VMOL%20wallpapers/british/RGS3.jpg

The 2LS is not factory of course but close as dammit since  Eddie Dow got so much credit for the original RGS idea...his catalog must have been in every Rocker's bathroom.

A much better view of the Duetto 2LS plate on the 190mm is seen on the Bonhams sale bike   front hub.

It's a right beauty I lusted for since I got my Eddie Dow catalog back in the late 60s...and seen in the catalog Viking linked to. (thanks Viking!!

The 190mm shoes measure 2", the single sided brakes were 1-5/8, then I also have a wheel with a single sided brake measuring 1-3/4" from a late A65 I think...so you might see three different brakes on an RGS now, the Duetto fit both the Single side as well as the 190mm. I think (std disclaimer applies)

Then Phil Pearson has a 2LS for both brakes shown on his site...is that the Duetto copy then?..
....pretty sure he inherited much of Dow's designs and inventory...maybe I remembered that right..

     Also seen but not very well is the four CAST lugs on the front downtubes, the bigger wrapped reinforcement on the steering head, passenger loops R and L....part of a current and likely several past threads on BBike forum and here too....new info to me.

So, whats all this about different barrels and fins?... all I had registered before was thicker flanges at some point, what's the 411 on that?

standard disclaimer: I've been wrong before...

Thanks all..
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Topdad on 29.03. 2016 12:04
Great to know so much about the bike's history Beezermacc , whereabouts in the river was the bike found,I seem to remember that the yobs used to dump quite a few bikes in the dock by the swing bridge on the dock road (Liverpool side ) maybe  the" Bramley-moore " can't remember  or over the water just up from new brighton .Either way a sad way for a bike to end up and wonderful that you were able to refurb it . Richard calling the Mersey brackish a few years ago would have been a compliment ,it was one of the most contaminated rivers in England,you could almost have walked on it ! it's been brought back to life now though and there are fish in it up beyond the " pier head " out in the channel by Crosby there are now lobsters on the wrecks , cheers Bob
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: beezermacc on 29.03. 2016 17:33
When I bought the bike I was told exactly where it had been found but because I'm not familiar with the area I can't remember. I'm pretty sure it was in the Frodsham / Helsby area, maybe near the refineries and industrial units. The guy I bought it off lives in Frodsham.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 29.03. 2016 20:21
Hi All,
I believe that the staggered fin cylinders were standard across the range from about 61????

My 61 SR has them but thats not a reliable indicator  *eek*

John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 29.03. 2016 21:32
I feel that those barrels were fitted to the last of the A10s, possibly late '62.
I say this because I have only seen one in the flesh, the written off set that I was given.
How about your RGS? Mine has the original style but???
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: bodger on 29.03. 2016 22:41
So are these barrels the 'thick flange' ones or is this now three versions of the A10 barrels?
a. Original thin flange
b. thick flange
c. thick flange-staggered fins?

That list only from my memory of what I think I maybe kinda read here...so not a definitive list..can anyone detail that better please?
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 30.03. 2016 21:15
They are thick flange and are virtually the same as the common type except for the fins on the front of the barrel.
You could add Ariel Huntmaster barrels to your list as they do fit.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: duTch on 30.03. 2016 23:30

 
Quote
I believe that the staggered fin cylinders were standard across the range from about 61????

 Any chance of a photo ?  *smiley4*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: chaterlea25 on 31.03. 2016 21:51
HI All,

Dutch,
I meant to take a photo yesterday and today but "things" got in the way
Tomorrow hopefully ??
John
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Beeza on 01.04. 2016 07:19
Hi all, quick shot of the two barrel fin set outs. I believe the stepped fin was 63 only, but I've just put a set on my 62 rgs, I figure it's my bike so what the hell.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: duTch on 01.04. 2016 09:47
 So are you saying the difference is a cutout in the top fin for the finned header-pipe clam, and that's all   *????*
 
 Ah no, just had another look, and every second fin is differently cast
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Rocket Racer on 02.04. 2016 04:12
Well you live and learn!
I was putting the wheel on my SR today and although hard to see in the shed, for some reason checked the barrel and low and behold its got the staggered fins and I'd never noticed. Now the motor its fitted to is a 61, but I'm sure I swapped it off my american sourced 55 road rocket motor fitted in my sidecar... so I'm confused. Neither are RGS  or that late.
So it does make me wonder if they were available earlier or for other models
  *dunno*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: muskrat on 02.04. 2016 10:49
I'd say one of the PO's stuch'em on not knowing any different.
Cheers
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Rocket Racer on 02.04. 2016 21:52
I'd say one of the PO's stuch'em on not knowing any different.
Cheers

Quite feasible, but does this mean my SR is now an RGS replica   *conf2*

I would never have noticed, or thought to even look without this post, so now I have another piece of BSA trivia in my brain  *problem*
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: trevinoz on 02.04. 2016 22:34
they weren't only on the RGS.
Title: Re: Factory RGS pictures and Info
Post by: Rocket Racer on 03.04. 2016 00:22
That thought had crossed my mind, much like the transitional large journal cranks that were fitted before the well documented large journal cranks from '58.
Or the differing alloy head castings.
Interesting whatever the story that there are differing thick flange barrels albeit only in detail.