The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Padsta33 on 04.06. 2016 07:45

Title: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 04.06. 2016 07:45
Have just acquired 1957 A10 that's been barn stored for 5 years untouched. Any advice please on the procedure for getting her started again?
Thanks
Paddy.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: mugwump on 04.06. 2016 09:23
Lucky you! I'd firstly find out as much as you can about its history if possible. Why was it laid-up? If and when it was re-built and if it can't be authenticated then consider an engine strip and clean. Re-build as necessary. Many old twins when re-started after a good lay-up fail due to clogged sludge traps etc. If you are happy that the above isn't needed then start with  draining the sump, examine contents of sump.New / clean oil filter and fresh oil. Check for a spark before knackering your right leg trying to start it. Once started check for good oil flow return in the tank. Thats my penneth worth anyway. Good luck
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 04.06. 2016 09:52
Thanks mugwamp.
As far a I'm told. It was running fine, and apparently last started 4 years ago. I'm not confident enough to strip motor, but I'm aware of the sludge trap issues.
Is there a way to check the mag to see if I'm likely to get a spark? Is it worth after draining sump to add engine cleaner in with 1st lot of new oil? And spray some carb cleaner after draining float bowl?
Cheers.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: hdawson on 04.06. 2016 10:29
Hi Padsta.
Make sure the engine is free.
I would put in new oil, fuel and plugs and give it a kick.
Maybe put a few drops of  oil into the plug 'oles.
You could check spark with the plug out but chances are, if it was running OK before it's layup, it will start.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: mugwump on 04.06. 2016 13:02
Hi Padsta33, I most certainly would'nt advise any engine cleaner or additives to the oil, or flushing oils. A little carb cleaner won't hurt and have you made sure that the clutch plates are free, by pulling in the clutch lever and kicking over a few times. When operating the clutch lever all the plates should be free of each other, if bike has been standing for any length of time they can become stuck to each other, its not a problem. My Matchy plates become stck after only standing for a week!j
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 04.06. 2016 13:08
The dynamo will most likley have lost its residual magnetism and might need to be flashed.
Tip the bie to the left ( side stand) and remove the oil drain plug to get as much of the gunk settled in the bottom of the oil tank out.
I have the luxury of an oil pump so I can suck the bottom of the tank dry ( don't know what I did without it ).
Refill with some cheap oil.
Start it up , warm it genty for 10 to 15 minutes drain the oil and refill with some more cheap thin oil.
Go out for a short 10 to 30 minute ride then drain the oil again into a clean container.
have a good look at what comes out.

Very important to also change the fork oil and again, do it twice.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: mugwump on 04.06. 2016 13:35
Most importantly, forgot to mention to check and see if there is an anti wet-sumping tap fitted. If so it will be fitted in the oil line just below the oil tank. This MUST be in the on position for running the engine. Hope this isn't teaching egg sucking etc. But, if you are not up to stripping engines this may be new to you. These bikes, like many others, are prone to what is called wet-sumping. This is when the oil drains from the oil tank and into the sump if the engine is not run for some time. Many bikes have a tap fitted to prevent this. Good luck and come back to the forum if you have any probs starting up.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: metalflake11 on 04.06. 2016 13:38
Change oil and clean filters. Take plugs out. Loosen rocker feed banjo bolts. Kick bike over while checking for sparks. When clean oil seeps from banjo bolts, re-tighten them. Another dozen or so kicks. Fresh fuel in tank. Kick over a few times. Replace plugs. Start bike (hopefully). Check oil return in oil tank.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Greybeard on 04.06. 2016 15:28
Shouldn't we talk about multigrade detergent oil loosening the sludge in the trap?
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Klaus on 04.06. 2016 16:15
Shouldn't we talk about multigrade detergent oil loosening the sludge in the trap?


Good advice, and very important

if you don't know what Oil the engine has run, please do not use multigrade Oils.

Four years in`t realy long time, as told upside, new Oil, cleaning the patroltaps is recommented.
Try it and dont care about the spark btw the magneto. If the engine fired up everything is ok. Most failures appeared when the Mag is running hot.



cheers Klaus
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 05.06. 2016 12:11
Shouldn't we talk about multigrade detergent oil loosening the sludge in the trap?

No becaue they don't
This is another urban myth.

A detergent oil is not a washing up detergent, It does not clean baked on  / packed in deposits from your engine except in TV commercials made by people with qualification in phycology & mass marketing, not SCIENCE & ENGINEERING..
At one end of the detergent molecule is a radical that hates itself so will bond to anything other than another detergent molecule.
At the other end the molecule will only stick to an oil molecule
Thus when they come across a lump of crud, one end sticks to it.
Eventually the bit of crud will be totally surrounded by detergent molecules so will be a lot bigger and easier to filter off.

The reason why you don't use high detergent oil in bikes with out oil filters is the little bits of crud surrounded by oil molecules do not settle out and continually circulate around your engine slowly erroding all the oil ways .
It will not scour your engine like a dish washer

Sludging oils were similar except both ends of the detergent molecule are homophobic so each end sticks to a piece of crud and neither end wants to hang around with those greasy oil molecules.
Thus they sort of glue all the bits of crud together into really big globs so when they get into the oil tank they will sink to the bottom below the outlet and stay there
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: bsa-bill on 05.06. 2016 12:16
Quote
except in TV commercials made by people with qualification in phycology & mass marketing, not SCIENCE & ENGINEERING
now isn't that a fact, and covers about all of modern life - (guess who's in old fart mode today??)
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 05.06. 2016 14:45
Having just had chance to check her over, not getting no spark. Taken plugs out and turned it over and nothing. Put fresh battery on to check lights  etc,  nothing. The switch on toolbox when on is reading 6v plus. Any advice where I should go from here?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: bsa-bill on 05.06. 2016 15:42
Quote
The switch on toolbox when on is reading 6v plus

Oh oh, I think some pics would be handy if possible Paddsta33, the nearest switch to the toolbox is not "on the toolbox" but below it and is the rear brake light, if you've got 6 volts there then thats as it should be, if there is a switch ON the toolbox it's not standard and could be part of an anti theft measure or a anti wet sumping system, some care needed here.
Pictures would help us probably
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 05.06. 2016 16:22
Trying to upload but keeps saying file is too large? Is there a way too sort this?
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 05.06. 2016 17:04
Hopefully this works...
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 05.06. 2016 17:10
...
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: mugwump on 05.06. 2016 21:32
Looks to me like a security switch, anti theft etc. Is there a wire coming from the Magneto end cap and if so can you trace where it goes. If it leads to the switch then disconnect it. If unable to trace the wire then snip it off for the time being. Now see if you have a spark at the plug with plug laid on the cylinder head. If no spark remove end cap of magneto and check that the points have not closed up or are not too larger gap, Gap should be 13thou. Make sure the points are clean by passing some Very fine abrasive paper over the points. Another thing to check 
are the carbon pick-ups on the end of the plug leads where they enter the Mag. Check they are there, and clean the slip ring they brush against with a petrol dampened rag on a stick. If still no spark then I think the mag may be kaput. I presume you have tried both plugs?
Can't think of much else at this stage. Except, check that the earthing brush is clean and in good order. Brush is under screw head next to the Lucas label on end of the mag.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 06.06. 2016 06:57
Looks to me like a security switch, anti theft etc. Is there a wire coming from the Magneto end cap and if so can you trace where it goes. If it leads to the switch then disconnect it. If unable to trace the wire then snip it off for the time being. Now see if you have a spark at the plug with plug laid on the cylinder head. If no spark remove end cap of magneto and check that the points have not closed up or are not too larger gap, Gap should be 13thou. Make sure the points are clean by passing some Very fine abrasive paper over the points. Another thing to check 
are the carbon pick-ups on the end of the plug leads where they enter the Mag. Check they are there, and clean the slip ring they brush against with a petrol dampened rag on a stick. If still no spark then I think the mag may be kaput. I presume you have tried both plugs?
Can't think of much else at this stage. Except, check that the earthing brush is clean and in good order. Brush is under screw head next to the Lucas label on end of the mag.
Thank Mug.
The switch probably is a security thing. Thought it was normal as I have the same on my other goldflash.
Think the mag is wired too this switch. (Sorry I'm not very up on with all this). So by disconecting this from switch, where does the mag get power? Today I will buy some new ht leads and check the points and report back. Appreciate all this help!
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: duTch on 06.06. 2016 08:22

 The magneto generates its own spark, that's what they do. I think depending on the points plate, there's also an earth brush behind that- mine has both and will run without at least the one mentioned *conf*

 I suggest cleaning everything as mentioned above, and also check the big semi circular points breaker spring is not earthing on the slip-ring (if not already mentioned and I missed it)
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Klaus on 06.06. 2016 08:54
After a long stay and when the points open, they oxidate on the surface. Result is no spark they transmit no tension.
Give the points a clean witch a 600 grindingpaper and try it again. I guess this keep the Mag working.

cheers Klaus
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: bsa-bill on 06.06. 2016 09:07
The switch is probably connected to the Magneto cut out (this is a wire on the very end of the magneto, on a screw in the very centre of the back magneto end cap.
when this is earthed the Magneto stop sending sparks, security switch will have this earthed.
Disconnect the wire at the switch but insulate it as  if it touches the frame or engine it will also earth.
normally there is a push button on the handle bars that does this job.

easiest way though is to first just try starting with the switch off (if you can define off)
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Klaus on 06.06. 2016 11:18
I have also a switch like this. This disconnect the Batterie from the Generator and the engine stops by connection the engine cut out and other way round.

cheers Klaus
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: mugwump on 07.06. 2016 11:05
Padsta, if you have carried out all the checks so far outlined with no joy then I'm afraid you will have to bite the bullet and have the mag overhauled. Its well worth doing as you shouldn't need to worry about it again in your lifetime. The one thing that can't be repaired at the roadside is a dead mag.
Fit and forget. The condensor on the Lucas KF2 mag is burried inside and not accessable for an anmateur. You can fit a modern alternative to the points plate, but then if thats the case the windings etc are probably very old and on their way out anyway. You are flogging a dead horse. 
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Topdad on 07.06. 2016 14:58
Just to be absolutely sure disconnect the (bloody) wire from the mag ,then try again as someone previously said ,Dutch I think , the mag produces its own sparks without any outside power source required .Then with the end cover off remove the little bolt in the middle ,it's long and remove the points assembly from the mag and clean the points , if any burning on the points clean with wet and dry or similar ,if bad take apart and use a file to clean then reassemble and fit back into the grove in the mag tighten centre bolt ,check gap ,adjust to 12 thou ,then repeat at the second if close ok if miles out the cam ring kaput without  some work . If you do this and still dead at least you know you're not wasting your money getting the mag reconned .
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 07.06. 2016 19:42
Just to be absolutely sure disconnect the (bloody) wire from the mag ,then try again as someone previously said ,Dutch I think , the mag produces its own sparks without any outside power source required .Then with the end cover off remove the little bolt in the middle ,it's long and remove the points assembly from the mag and clean the points , if any burning on the points clean with wet and dry or similar ,if bad take apart and use a file to clean then reassemble and fit back into the grove in the mag tighten centre bolt ,check gap ,adjust to 12 thou ,then repeat at the second if close ok if miles out the cam ring kaput without  some work . If you do this and still dead at least you know you're not wasting your money getting the mag reconned .
Cheers, will do so, but recon I will just get the bloody thing overhauled...Tiz done then!
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: morris on 10.06. 2016 21:51
Trying to upload but keeps saying file is too large? Is there a way too sort this?
If you got Windows, click right on your picture, choose "open with" then choose "paint"
On the upper left you should have a button "change size"
Once you have changed the size, click "File", "save as" and save. Clicking right on your saved picture, then clicking on "properties" tells you the size of the actual file.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 11.06. 2016 08:05
Trying to upload but keeps saying file is too large? Is there a way too sort this?
If you got Windows, click right on your picture, choose "open with" then choose "paint"
On the upper left you should have a button "change size"
Once you have changed the size, click "File", "save as" and save. Clicking right on your saved picture, then clicking on "properties" tells you the size of the actual file.
Cheers for tip but I'm not a windows man. It's either Mac or Android phone.
I've now found an app that does the job!
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 11.06. 2016 08:09
Cleaning up nicely.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: muskrat on 11.06. 2016 11:08
Can't be right, she hasn't marked her spot.
Looks good.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Starting tips after 5 years stored.
Post by: Padsta33 on 11.06. 2016 12:44
Can't be right, she hasn't marked her spot.
Looks good.
Cheers.
Ha ha....that cos all fluids have been drained awaiting an overhaul. 😎 (had to be an answer there somewhere!)