The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: NickSR on 12.05. 2009 18:37

Title: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: NickSR on 12.05. 2009 18:37
Hi Every one

I have purchased a SRM sump plate kit (with drain bolt) what is the best method of removing the sump studs so that the plate can fitted.

Thanks
Nick
1962 Super Rocket
Notts
England
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: bsa-bill on 12.05. 2009 18:43
a stud remover would be best but most I've seen would be too big fo the small studs so try two nuts screwed up tight together on a stud and then turn the top one out, usually works but if not then vice grips ( will destroy the studs though)
SRM kit comes with allen studs if I recall but longer studs are available if you prefer them

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: A10Boy on 12.05. 2009 19:50
Mole grips. I use them for everything, well them and the lump hammer.

Seriously though, two nuts tightened together, or mole grips will do.
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: groily on 12.05. 2009 20:37
Advise getting or making longer studs and using nuts and lock washers. Got the T shirt. The allen screws supplied with the kit are nice and shiny but the wrong thing and annoyed me a bit. These aren't studs/screws that want removing too often. To get them out, 2 nuts, mole grips, small stud remover, whatever. Just hope the threads in the crankcases are OK - they have often suffered. Too often. Good news is you don't have to take the new plate off half as often as the old one thanks to the drain plug.
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 13.05. 2009 02:11
The holes for mounting the sump naturally go through and tend to leak if you use bolts.
There is also not much in the way of metal down there and to make matter worse it straddles both case halves.
Why BSA did this when the pre-war models and early post war ones had the sump in one side only one will never know.
The Rolls Royce job is to make up a new set of longer studs, so that the thread into the cases bottoms out into the hole ( thus making an almost oil tight seal ) then mount the new sump plate using nuts as per original.
Also when you fit the sump pate, fit it so that the drain plug is on the left side. The fact that the fins run across the frame will make no difference but the sump will be easy to drain on the side stand and should it drop out the oil will spurt out to the left side, all over the left muffler and stink rather than all over the rear wheel and throw you on your bottom 

Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: groily on 13.05. 2009 23:01
never been accused of doing a rolls royce job before . . . I shall go to bed a happy man. I reckon it's a darn silly place to use screws. I'll say nothing about the original design - the number of bikes with messes down there testifies to its inadequacy. I like the cross-wise fitting idea too - didn't think of that!
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: Lannis on 14.05. 2009 17:23
Next upgrade item for me on the A10 is a sump with drain plug; this is something you have to do often on a filter-less bike, and threading steel screws in and out of an alloy case is not a good long-term solution.

I have the SRM sump plate on my A65 and it's the best upgrade I ever made.  When I do the A10, I will either buy or make longer studs, and I will put the studs in the case with Red Loctite.  With a drain plug in place, there's NO reason for these studs to ever have to come out again for the life of the motor.

I just replaced the cylinder hold-down studs into the case, and used red loctite on those.  All of them had "loosened up" and I blew the gasket; that's not going to happen again.  Something else may happen, but not that!

Lannis
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: NickSR on 14.05. 2009 20:34
Hi Every one

Thank you all for replying, seems the best way forward is new studs with loctite and mount the plate across ways.

Again thank you for your advice.

Regards
Nick
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal - Question
Post by: NickSR on 17.05. 2009 22:51
Hi Every One

Thanks for all of the advice, which was great one thing I had forgotten to ask is it Whitworth threads in the crankcases?

If it is I intend buy some cycle thread stainless bolts cut of the heads and thread to make them into studs.

Regards
Nick
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 18.05. 2009 06:17
Whitworth they are.
You seem to use the same stud technique as moir.
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal - Question
Post by: Lannis on 18.05. 2009 15:19
Hi Every One

Thanks for all of the advice, which was great one thing I had forgotten to ask is it Whitworth threads in the crankcases?

If it is I intend buy some cycle thread stainless bolts cut of the heads and thread to make them into studs.

Regards
Nick

If you do find the right bolts from which to make studs, can you let us know where you find them and what type?

SRM is normally very particular about "doing things right", I'm surprised that they supply steel bolts to thread into the alloy case, and thread them out every time you want to check the sump screen.  That's just bad technical practice, I don't care if people do say "Well, I haven't had a problem YET!".

Once I "bond" with this A10, it's going to get more miles and more maintenance than 99% of the ones that exist today .... and I want the upgrades done right.

Lannis
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: groily on 18.05. 2009 17:07
That's what I thought Lannis, tho I'm very reluctant to criticise SRM, who've been brilliant for me. Longer studs are what's wanted, with the coarse thread for the cases and either 1/4 cycle or BSF for the nuts. 'Fraid I don't know where they could be got, but it might be worth buying the dies to do it yourself - they're a worthwhile size to have in the toolbox! And what a pleasure it is not to be dependent on other people every time some little thing needs sorting out.
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: RichardL on 18.05. 2009 20:59
I don't understand why everyone is so anxious to make their own studs or jury-rig same from cut-off bolts. In four minutes of searching I found three sources for 31-0222, the stud in question: Stainlessbits.com; burtonbikebits.net; domiracer.com. I bet I could double that number of sources in another 5 or 10 minutes, not to mention C&D Autos, for whom I have no access to their parts lists. I would think that the 6 GBP, or around US$10.00, would be money well spent and time saved. No one, I think, is making every nut and bolt on his bike, anyway. It would be particularly worthwhile to buy them if you want stainless.

Richard L
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: a101960 on 18.05. 2009 21:37
.....and if you opt to buy a sump plate from any other source you will probaly find that the plate will be delivered complete with a set of studs and nuts. One supplier (George Prew) has even had the drain plug and sump plate drilled so that they can be wire locked. Nothing wrong with SRM products, but don't be blinkered, do a bit of research before you buy, you may be surprised by what some of the alternatives offer out there.
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: groily on 18.05. 2009 22:08
I'm sure you're right Richard - and I'm very pleasantly impressed there's a part no. for something that wasn't even a BSA part. Just goes to show how good the service we get has become.
Stainless is a case in point of course - if one wants hex-head fasteners with nice knurling on and all that, then ordering up is the only easy way.
But you open up, as so often, a fascinating topic . . . .

At the more prosaic end of the market  - what's wrong with using a screw or bolt (or anything else) as the basis for 'jury-rigging' a part? A bit of (in this case) 1/4 inch stock is . . . a bit of 1/4 inch stock  . . . . and can be made into anything you like as long as it doesn't need to be . . . fatter than 1/4 inch! Compared with some of the crappy pattern bits out there, a decent home workshop job is often, I venture to say, better. For example, as to correct chamfers, better finish, exact length required, etc. And as to 'time saved' . . . time waiting for the post/mail man to bring (or sadly sometimes not to bring) things is very slow-moving for those of us who want our toys to work all the time.

Like a lot of folk, I haven't bought a nut, bolt, or stud in years, except for con-rod and cylinder head fastenings etc.  It's a large part of the fun on rainy days, and the ability to do it has, for me, transformed classic vehicle ownership, along with making a million other things in daily life a heck of a lot easier.
Certainly can't claim to make all my standard spec nuts and bolts, but only because I still have a large accumulated stock of fasteners acquired over the years. I would make them though, every single one as needed, if I didn't have that stockpile. I suspect a fair few of us do?
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: RichardL on 18.05. 2009 22:33
Ah yes, the beauty of having the right tools and the time. So, Groily, I don't think you're nuts (will spin off of their respective studs, a little Loctite wil do 'er! *smile*).
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 19.05. 2009 01:55
Well you need to be careful because 1/4" stock is oft not 1/4" but the smaller metric 6 mm or even worse 5 mm and when you cut the thread it will be loose.
Title: Re: Sump Studs Removal
Post by: groily on 19.05. 2009 07:14
ah well, it pays to get or make the right sizes of course and to have a few imperial measuring sticks (glad am I that I lived in the USA for years where all is available in a true market economy) - especially for those of us living in metric-land! Same as it pays to build up over time the right threading tackle to go with, so one doesn't have to confuse Whitworth and UNC, 1/4 Cycle and 1/4 BSF etc.
But thanks to a very nice friend of mine who has a mate etc who runs a technical apprentice shop not a million miles away, I am blessed with loads of stock, and as long as I don't need a bolt more than 30mm diameter or longer than about a foot and a half (how often could that possibly happen this side of an articulated lorry (sorry, semi)!!??) no problem with the making of 'fings wot fit'.
The only things I have to wait for the postman to bring from time to time are extra taps and dies, which I continue to get from Tracy Tools in Devon UK whose price and service are excellent, whether for cheaper stuff in carbon steel or decent HSS tackle for the regularly-needed sizes. It's funny that, for example, it's quicker and cheaper to get even rare metric fine sizes common on many continental marques from them than it is from local sources. And for tricky stuff like large Cycle sizes in the alternate 20tpi, they're just brilliant. Like the proliferation of excellent parts suppliers, a whole host of tooling suppliers nowadays can equip us with darn near anything at far lower cost than in days gone by. So things that couldn't be done once for lack of kit or the wherewithal to acquire it, can be done in a heartbeat these days. Pure joy!
Just for perspective, I'd say that the lifelong cost of the kit I've built up myself represents about the total investment required for one half decent classic motorcycle, with a small lathe the largest single cost and by far the most worthwhile one. Which, over 40 years of messing about, starting with bicycles in my teens, is not really very much.
May we all be spared to keep playing in sheds for ever!