The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: nimrod650 on 15.07. 2016 18:39

Title: Oil & Detergents
Post by: nimrod650 on 15.07. 2016 18:39
not something i have done but my father always drained the oil replaced the bung put a couple of pints of parrafin into oil tank ran  the bike for 30 seconds then drained tank and crankcase and re- filled with castrol xl
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: coater87 on 15.07. 2016 19:52
 My dad did things like that too. Except he used about a half gallon of kerosene in the family car, poured it in on top of the old oil.

 He would fire up the Oldsmobile, let it run about 1 minute then drain the whole mess out.

 I think the job of cleaning out the sludge today is being done by the modern detergents in the oil we buy. I dont think this would do much for cleaning of the engine or be very good for it now. I think it would be like running it for one minute with sewing machine oil as the only lubricant.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: ellis on 15.07. 2016 20:28
Always used to add a pint of diesel engine oil in the car engine 100 miles before the oil change. Good detergents in diesel oil to keep the engine clean.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: muskrat on 15.07. 2016 21:28
The trouble with using a high detergent oil (or a solvent) in our motors is that if the sludge trap has any crap in it the detergent will wash it out straight into the bigend bearings.
Cheers
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: beezermacc on 15.07. 2016 21:34
Ditto what Musky says. Do not, under any circumstances, do anything to flush the engine. The whole point of the sludge trap is to 'trap' particles before they have a chance to squeeze between the big end shells and crank journal surfaces. Any attempt to flush the engine will loosen the particles in the sludge trap and flush them through the big end shells...... instant death to the engine!
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 16.07. 2016 09:56
The trouble with using a high detergent oil (or a solvent) in our motors is that if the sludge trap has any crap in it the detergent will wash it out straight into the bigend bearings.
Cheers

Well no it won't.
The exact same certrifugal forces that caused it to collect in the sludge trap will keep it in the sludge trap only doubly so as it is being spun out of a thinner solution. Have a little think about it.

Next detergent oils are not penetrant, degreasers scourers, or solvents and will do absolutely nothing to "clean" up an old dirty engine.
A detergent, like the one you use on your dishes simply attaches to anything and everything else that is not a detergent.
In an oil the detergent addative does nothing more than envelope tiny particles of anything that is not oil so that they can not join together and become big lumps of crud commonly called sludge but stay as fine particles suspended in the oil so that the filter can remove them easily.
They will not brake up the sludge in the sludge trap unless they are being forced through the oil galleries at hundreds of PSI and many gallons per minute while the crank is stationary.

You don't usually put high detergent oils in engine with full flow centrifugal oil filters because the two work against each other.
The one is trying to force all of the particulate matter into a big solid lump in the sludge trap or setteling tank while the other is trying to keep all of the particulate matter as discreet particles so they can be strained out easily by the filter.

A detergent oil KEEPS THE OIL CLEAN it does not CLEAN A DIRTY ENGINE,

Adm edit: moderated, some content removed.

Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: bsa-bill on 16.07. 2016 10:55
The detergent in oil does not keep the oil clean, the filter does that (which should be employed when using  such oil)
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: muskrat on 16.07. 2016 12:28
I know you know what your talking about Trevor but I do have to differ a bit here. Not from any scientific knowledge but form experience. I have seen many an OLD Holden/Ford (OK their not A7/10 BSA's) motors destroyed by using diesel type oils washing away the years of built up crud, blocking oil ways and strainer.
 *dunno*
Cheers

Don't really want to start another oil thread!)
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: mugwump on 16.07. 2016 16:47
I have to confess to ruining a Ford Zephyr engine many years ago by using flushing oil. Just thought it was a good idea at the time, before an oil change. Engine sounded like a bag of nails afterwards.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: East_Coast_BSA on 16.07. 2016 17:22
Motor oil with detergents include chemicals that aid in trapping particles, dispersant additives that break down coagulating sludge in channels, rust preventers and alkaline to offset the acidic nature of oil in general as it begins to oxidize.  If you run detergent oil in a vehicle (such as older farm equipment for example) that has previously spent it's life on a steady diet of non-detergent oil, it will leak most everywhere (especially around the seals).  It will also loosen sludge deposits and clog small galleys and passageways.  I've seen it happen more than once.  BTW, I'm not a member of any of your "categories" either.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: nimrod650 on 16.07. 2016 19:54
i remember i used to buy a 5 gallon drum of green duckhams from a rep very cheap *smile* *smile* he used to say they would never make a racing oil as the green standard oil was good enough for racing engines i remember  doing an oil test at tech  were a drum with large ball bearings was spun at high speed till they stuck together due to the oil failing duckhams came out on top every time beating all other  well known brands
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: chaterlea25 on 16.07. 2016 23:26
Hiya
Duckhams ! sadly missed  *sad2*

John
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 17.07. 2016 09:47
I know you know what your talking about Trevor but I do have to differ a bit here. Not from any scientific knowledge but form experience. I have seen many an OLD Holden/Ford (OK their not A7/10 BSA's) motors destroyed by using diesel type oils washing away the years of built up crud, blocking oil ways and strainer.
 *dunno*
Cheers

Don't really want to start another oil thread!)

In a wet sump situation the sludge formed is quite loose.
I am sure you have cleaned out a sump or two in your time.
The goo that blocked off the oil pick up screen was an emulsion caused by one addative package being incompatiable with another addative package and generally a redox type reaction
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 17.07. 2016 10:08
Motor oil with detergents include chemicals that aid in trapping particles, dispersant additives that break down coagulating sludge in channels, rust preventers and alkaline to offset the acidic nature of oil in general as it begins to oxidize.  If you run detergent oil in a vehicle (such as older farm equipment for example) that has previously spent it's life on a steady diet of non-detergent oil, it will leak most everywhere (especially around the seals).  It will also loosen sludge deposits and clog small galleys and passageways.  I've seen it happen more than once.  BTW, I'm not a member of any of your "categories" either.

Yes of course they do.
All motor oils contain those and a lot more such as surface tension modifiers also called anti- foam agents, plasticisers to aid keeping rubber seals soft, anti emulsification agents to allow small amounts of water to be boiled off and not held in suspension in the oil. I could go on but this is getting too long already

From Lubricants , Cutting Fluids & Coolants  by W.J.Olds which was the text book my students had to  use.
Glossary, page 193

DETERGENT :- In lubrication either an additive or a compounded lubricant having the property of keeping insoluble matter in suspension thus preventing its its deposition where it would be harmful. A detergent may redisperse deposits already formed.

DISPERSANT ;- In lubrication a term usually used interchangeably with detergent.

All detergents are dispersants.

If you can read it on Google books then I suggest you read chapters 3 ( The miracle of additives ) and chapter 17 ( the myths about motor oil ), I have & I have taught it for several years. If you can find a copy the other books we used were "the anatomy of modern oils" and "the chemical compatability of additives in oils & greases "
I could not put my hands on them right now so they may be out on loan.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: duTch on 17.07. 2016 11:32

 So Trev, I don't wish to go further off the G-glitter story, and could ask a few questions other than what do you know about Abiotic oil? - maybe not to be answered here *conf*
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 18.07. 2016 10:37
When Musky thinks we have gone too far he will either delete or split the post.
Abiotic oil theory dates back to the anchient times of pre-atomic theory when every thing was made of different ratios of earth, wind , fire & water.
Now there is a slight possibility that some oil deposits could have occurred abiotically, but you have to get a lot of ducks lined up in the correct order for it to happen.
Just because I can make something happen in a lab under highly controlled lab conditions does not mean it will happen in the enviroment.
No abiotic oil deposits have been identified to date.
People who have no understanding of partial pressure, solid state diffusion and permability of the earths crust have used the "regeneration of spent oil wells" as proof of the existance of abiotic oil .

This is why an understanding of physics & chemistry are so important.

Edited by adm
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: duTch on 18.07. 2016 11:59

 Thanks Trev, I'll do my best to analyze that. The concept came to my attention about ten years or so ago, and not many have heard about it. I only heard of 'fossil fuel/oil' in the seventies, until then it was generally known (in my young world) as 'mineral oil', and when I heard about abiotic, i started to question stuff.
 But this is not the right place- just thought I'd sneak it in
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: RichardL on 18.07. 2016 13:23
Now there is a slight possibility that some oil deposits could have occurred abiotically, but you have to get a lot of ducks lined up in the correct order for it to happen.

Uuuh, if you use ducks lined up, I think it would be fossil fuel.  *smile*

Honestly, I'd never heard the term "abiotic oil" before. After Trevor's description and a bit of Google, it is apparently a lot of hooey on the order of ether being the fifth element (after air, fire, water and earth) occupying all of outer space.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 19.07. 2016 09:51
Well the thermodynamics of most of the proposed paths is sound but the probability is not high.
The thermodynamics of coal, lime & magnetite turning into iron is sound too.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: JulianM on 05.02. 2017 14:36
And the subject of this ost was?   *smile* *smile*

My opinion,
In a newly rebuilt engine that has really been done properly with all new parts, bearings seals etc, then use the best quality 'Modern' detergent type multigrade oil possible.  Best if it is also redily available so you can but it in the high street if you run low on a trip.  I use Motul 20/60 as I find that 20's leak less when cold and standing in my workshop for weeks on end.  reality over theory winning again.
J
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: Zander on 05.02. 2017 15:37
What does the collective think about the use of flushing oil after a drain down?
( runs for cover) *smiley4*
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: bikerbob on 05.02. 2017 16:43
I would imagine that most people would be like me, I change the oil every year without fail regardless of how many miles that the bike has done if it has done less than 1000 miles I change the in line filter every 2 years with this set up there is no need to ever consider using a flushing oil. I have never used a flushing oil.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: Zander on 05.02. 2017 17:12
I've not used it for years, and never on a bike,  but I've found a fair bit of dross in the drained oil and filter of the GF.  I don't know how long the bikes been standing.  Apparently, it's an " older restoration", and judging by the lack of carb on the piston crowns, it's not been run much. i could flush it by doing an oil change and draining it when hot, which is probably the best way of dealing with it.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: gavinoz on 05.02. 2017 18:30
Hi Zander, to repeat what others said, I would never use flushing oil in my A10 engine again.I would not describe the sound as 'a bag of nails'. More like two knights in armour going at each other with maces!! Cheers, Gav.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: Zander on 05.02. 2017 20:03
Thanks for the info, Gav - I'm convinced.  A double oil change is the way I'll try to clean the engine up a bit.👍
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: jachenbach on 12.03. 2017 00:27
Not A10, but may be relevant: I ran a '74 Karmann Ghia, air cooled, no filter, for 200,000 miles and sold it still running fine with 10w40 high detergent oil changes every 1500 miles. When I met my wife she drove an old VW beetle. The first time I checked her valves I couldn't believe the crud in the rocker covers and all over the rocker arms and shafts. Mostly water sludge but some harder black crap as well. 2 quick oil changes (about 500 miles) and when I next checked the valves it looked like new parts inside. Continued to run fine for a couple years after until the fuel pump diaphragm gave out and filled the crankcase with gasoline.
  I don't doubt that it would be possible to loosen crap and trash bearing shells, but I see no reason not to run a good grade of modern oil in an engine that starts out clean. IMO frequent changes are the real key to long life. I have 265,000 on my 4 cylinder Jeep on full synth and 6k changes. Still has almost 60psi oil pressure.
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 12.03. 2017 09:20
Uuuh, if you use ducks lined up, I think it would be fossil fuel.  *smile*

Is your duck squeaky and stiff?

(http://mattsautomobilia.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/57-34-5-600x600.jpg)
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: coater87 on 12.03. 2017 13:22
 Flushing oil?

 I dont think I have ever heard of it. But I do remember being told that adding a quart of kerosene to the engine right before a change and letting the motor run for 10 minutes was the way to go.....

 Basically just thinned the oil that was in there and maybe knocked some sludge down...at the cost of the bearings and every other moving part.

 And that was back in the days when the oil you ran was very crude (see that?).

 I dont think that ever needs to be done these days, and it would ruin more than it could ever help.

 Lee
Title: Re: Oil & Detergents
Post by: Butch (cb) on 13.03. 2017 15:46
I was quite recently given a whole bunch of tins of some kind of flushing fluid - modern stuff at that. The tins are small enough that I guess you add them to the oil for a short run prior to a change. I'm not going near them.