The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Slippery Sam on 23.11. 2016 10:55

Title: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 23.11. 2016 10:55
Sorry to bring this up as I see it's been discussed a few times.
I've been reading intently but think I need further advice.
A10 roller conversion
crank end feed
SMR pump
Just finished the build (well far enough to need to run the motor)
Not getting an oil return.
I've split the feed pipe - getting oil from tank through gravity to the casing
removed the return pipe from the engine case - dry
removed the timing case - end feed reservoir dry
removed pump and primed on the bench - works fine
while oil pump was off - got good flow of oil from feed (gravity)
spring and ball right way round (ball on back of pump spring in oilway)?
replaced pump - getting good flow from the reservoir feed (connecting tube from inner case to outer case) with outer case off
Put outer case back on - no return
removed pressure relief valve - dry - sounds like a lot of compression coming out of there?

Where to look now?  why is reservoir not filling? (will take outer case back off tonight to double check everything (and fill the reservoir to help prime?))
my thoughts?
Could the Reservoir feed be too long and blocked off not filling reservoir? - will measure up tonight
gasket blocking an oilway when everything is fully assembled?
Can't see oil going anywhere esle and tank not draining - so not getting lost somewhere it shouldn't?
I tried blowing up the end of the crank - glad no-body was looking (the things you do!) - didn't feel particularly clear - but wasn't sure it should (am I trying to blow air through the BE shell clearance (small gap?))?
I've kicked it over loads (I actually bought/built a roller starter but having problems with fuses blowing and 13A supply (think I went too big on the motor)) - might take a night off and sort out the roller to save my leg?

Where else should I look?
Are end feed motors hard (take longer) to prime?
Can I pull oil through (syringe etc)?

Any tips or hints would be appreciated.

cheers Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: bikerbob on 23.11. 2016 11:09
 Out of all the things you have checked you do not state the first thing to check is you have got the oil pipes the right way round the top one in the crankcase is the return.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 23.11. 2016 11:17
LOL - thanks Bob.
Pipes are right way round with the fittings clearly marked F and R (feed being the lower of the 2).  checked and proven by the pump working with the outer case off.
You're right - it was the first thing I checked - just forgot to state.

Cheers Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: orabanda on 23.11. 2016 11:34
Don't like the bit about the relief valve remaining dry!
In the original (bush bearing) design, the high pressure (ball or poppet) side of the relief valve is linked to the oil feed gallery into (around) the bearing. This connection needs to have been repeated / copied when the roller bearing mod was performed.

The best way to prime a new engine is fill the oil tank, remove plugs, remove oil relief valve, and turn engine over until oil finds it's way to the relief valve. It won't be too long before the oil dribbles out, and you can re-fit the relief valve confident of oil having primed the bush.

Have a chat to the person who did the mod.

Richard
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Topdad on 23.11. 2016 11:54
Raymond ,from memory the SRM conversion as the feed to the crank quill  altered in the outer timing case and seals by way of a red washer ,what state is yours in if not a good fit I think oil may not flow . Certainly don't remember any problems getting oil to return on mine and I used a old BSA pump.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 23.11. 2016 12:03
Guess that's my main concern Richard.
Story is - bought the bottom end complte as a fresh build from a guy who didn't built it :-(
Build had mag tacho drive inner timing casing which I swapped out for an oil pump tacho drive casing and had SRM mod the inner casing for the end feed.
I have the original inner casing and will do my best to check oilways and make sure the newly modified case has the same feeds.  My understanding was that the inner casing wasn't that complicated and may have actually been as simple as drill a hole and insert a pipe?
There might be others on the forum with the end feed (or know how it works) that can point me at things to check?  Given it looks like the pump is pumping - I can't help feeling something is blocked?
Worst case I stick the original inner case back on and do without a rev counter for a bit.
PS - have kicked it over a lot (a real lot) - so don't think I just haven't given it enough time (the reservoir wasn't filling!).

cheers Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 23.11. 2016 12:10
Todad,  Mine isn't an SMR conversion.  I know because I had them modify the inner case and they told me then it wasn't one of thiers.  My quill is sealed into the feed reservoir with a lipped seal which looks okay.  However this is yet to be proven - but should be simple to replace if needed (assumes I can find the right seal as not a parts list item and don't know the original builder).  I'd have thought a leaking seal on the end feed would cause oil to leak out into the outer case round about the pump area and that is still dry.
Raymond
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: rocker21 on 23.11. 2016 12:58
i wonder if that little valve next to the timing side main is not opening, trouble is the only way to get at it is to split the crankcase
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: chaterlea25 on 23.11. 2016 23:22
Hi,
You will be blue in the face trying to get the oil to circulate kicking over especially in winter time  *problem*

Get a pressure oil can ! fill it with whatever engine oil you are using ,
Remove outer timing cover
Use it to prime the crankshaft through the quill on the end, set pistons to the bottom of the stroke

Remove the feed pipe and inject oil in till it appears at the PRV, refit PRV and and keep priming until oil
comes out the oilway to the outer cover (this will be slow going)
Replace outer cover

Alternatively after priming the crank replace outer cover and with the spark plugs removed and the HT leads grounded, push the bike along in second gear till the oil comes out the PRV hole
replace PRV and push the bike back to the workshop keeping it turning over

John
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 24.11. 2016 10:54
Cheers John,
Think you're right - most other threads I've read all seem to suggest priming is a breeze - and in reality it's not always that easy! and the warmest it's been this week has been -3C so guess that will never help.
The good news is - we have oil - woop woop.
When I left it on Tuesday night (and wrote my sob story about no circulation) - I must have been about 3 kicks away from seeing oil!. 
Last night I went out and found a few drips of oil under the outer timing cover.  After removing - I discovered oil at the crank quill and the PRV.  The dribble was as a result of a leak on the crank end feed reservior (channel). after cleaning and testing I've found the leak so will get that sealed up and will fit a new shaft seal for the Quill.
I will be sure to prime the crank properly too - did give it a squirt at the point of building but will try to fill it this time.
I can't easily pull the bike out to take it a walk - and it's a crying shame to have a starter roller (brand new) sitting in the corner of the garage with a fusing problem - I think I do really need to take a night off and fix the roller out - as you say - I was nearly blue in the face kicking the thing on Tuesday night - LOL.

Thanks again for the words of wisdom guys - will report back when its completely sorted and barks into life.

Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: chaterlea25 on 24.11. 2016 17:57
Hi Raymond,
Quote
The dribble was as a result of a leak on the crank end feed reservior (channel). after cleaning and testing I've found the leak so will get that sealed up and will fit a new shaft seal for the Quill.

Thats not good *sad2*
I would like to see a photo of the inside of the cover showing the oilfeed ?
I only have experience of SRM converted engines and have seen a few photos of home brew setups but not too impressed with them

John
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 24.11. 2016 19:37
LOL
John, given its not the srm one - I reckon you will be underwhelmed!
I'd di ask them to do me a set of srm cases but they wouldn't do it without the whole bottom end and turnaround was too long for me so cracked on.
Will do a couple of pictures though.
Biggest issue with my set up was clearance for the srm pump. Ended up putting a chamfer on the pump casing to make everything fit.
Raymond
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: trevinoz on 24.11. 2016 20:32
You may need to prime the sump pick-up as well.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: kiwipom on 24.11. 2016 20:58
hi guys, Slippery Sam unless you have a serious leak somewhere in he oil system getting oil round by kicking should not be a problem, I can get 50lbs pressure on the oil gauge from kicking with plugs out, cheers
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 25.11. 2016 08:38
Kiwipom, I think we're about there - now that most bits are primed.  I agree - with all new bits there should be no problems with decent pressure.  Initially until things did start moving, I wasn't concerned there was a serious leak because the tank level wasn't really going down.
Remember this a brand new build and although I used a squirt of oil on moving parts as I assembled - I didn't really anticipate the priming required for circulation (my first BSA build and still very much learning).  New, dry; oil tank, pipes, pump, PRV, end feed, crank journals, oilways, sump;  guess it's a dawdle to to replace any one part and re-prime it in a few kicks - however - for me it looks like it's a lot easier to push oil round the system than air - so took a lot of kicking.  The places I have been able to see oil move - it does look like a good flow now.  Just need to get my seals sorted on on the end feed and we'll be able to run it up and watch the return to tank.
Like I said in an earlier post - I think I started the thread about 3 kicks too early - if I'd just had a fag and a breather - then kicked for about 10 more seconds - we'd have had oil and no thread.

Thanks Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 25.11. 2016 21:55
John here's the end feed you wanted to see
Raymond
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 30.11. 2016 08:18
Well, not getting anywhere very fast.
Still suffering from ignorance and lack of knowledge/experience.
Got my end feed re-sealed and fitted new shaft seal.
Fitted new sump / gauze / mag plug and gaskets
put everything back together.
Still getting:
oil round to PRV
oil back through inner timing case for end feed
a little oil in the sump and pick up pipe
Nothing back through the return pipe to tank.
However - my main question today is - Should the outer timing case fill with oil round the oil pump section or should that be dry in there?  I suspect this is where the oil is going (filling up and ending up pressurised) - the timing case and rev counter drive also leak!
Does this mean my end feed is leaking again (would weld it this time if that's the problem).
If oil pump section in outer timing case should be dry and not filled with oil - could this mean theres a partial blockage in the crank - or will that always be restricted and only take a small amount of the flow (where would the rest of the flow go?).
Sorry - most of this procrastination is because I don't really have a good picture in my mind of how and where the oil should flow.
Does anyone have a link or pointer to somewhere that would explain this for me?  It would make working out these issues a bit easier.

This last 5% of the build is killing me - everything else is literally ready to go and this is the very last hurdle!

Thanks in advance.
Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: duTch on 30.11. 2016 09:06
 I think the crank/sludge chamber holds about ~30ml and I realized a while ago the outer timing case should hold I think about 50cc or so, but can't see it'd be pressurised (been wrong before-think it was grade two- ongoing*eek*)

 Timing cover level is up to where the hole is in the main C/Case. There's discussion if you do a search, I think it was one of the Kiwis/Pom had a pic to explain
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 30.11. 2016 12:30
Thank you DuTch,
Eventually tracked down the thread with the photos (and load of other interesting threads).  Yeh - this does make a huge difference to my understanding and helps no end.
I'm begining to wonder if it was just the tacho drive leaking badly and running round the bottom of the timing case - making it look like it was leaking from everywhere?  So the pressure thing was a bad / wrong conclusion for me to jump to - wouldn't be much pressure with the amount of oil coming out of the tacho drive.  I have a new SRM PRv to match the SRM oil pump so would hope that'd protect me anyhow.
Armed with this extra knowledge - I will resume tonight and hide the box of matches that I placed on the bench last night - LOL
cheers Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: chaterlea25 on 30.11. 2016 17:50
Hi Raymond
How did you seal the oil transfer block?
SRM weld in this block *ex*
This block must hold the full pump pressure somewhere around 60psi cold
If it leaks you will wreck the engine *warn* *warn* *warn* *warn*
If you need I was going to pull out an engine project to photo the block welded in place
I cannot see how oil level would get high enough to reach the tacho drive just turning the engine over
That said they are prone to leaking as standard *sad2*
I eventually made up a new rev drive housing that contains two sealed ball bearings *bright idea*

John
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 01.12. 2016 08:13
John,
The transfer block is not welded in place.  It's bonded.  I presume it was sealed when I got the motor but I had to remove some of the inside of the casing and managed to grind through to a mounting hole.  I alloy brazed the hole and think the heat might have damaged the seal.  I used epoxy alloy glue to seal round again.
With what you say in mind, I think I'll pull it all again and weld round the block - better safe than sorry.  Looking at Kiwipom's pictures with the perspex cover on the pump gallery - it looks like the level will be very close to if not right up to the tacho drive.
On my last report - I actually had the tacho adaptor off so no sealing at all (at that time I didn't realise that part of the casing filled with oil!).  I actually had a burst tang on the tacho drive - just from kicking it and was waiting on new bits!  My fault I guess - looked like i had maybe caught the boss on the inner shaft with the gasket and or there was a clearance issue cause the shaft had picked up inside the alloy adaptor.  The cable end also felt like when done right up was probably clamping the shaft too! so new shaft and adaptor on thier way - and this time I'll make sure I'm not clamping it all up when I fit it.  The new kit I ordered has an o ring with it (didn't have that on the first kit) - which part of the shaft does that fit - is it in the recess on the adaptor flange?  that was one of the areas I was orried was clamping the shaft?
Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Bsareg on 01.12. 2016 10:19
Hi, read a article some years ago on how SRM modified the end cover. It shows they use Lumiweld to fix the block in
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 01.12. 2016 10:39
I have lumiweld.  Will give that a try first - before the tig gets dragged out.
I have scrap cases I can practice on.
It's probably more about not distorting the case than penetration?
Raymond
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 19.12. 2016 19:43
The lion roars tonight!
Finally got my oil circulation sorted thanks to Rob Wardle in Gateshead 😀
I got a new outer timing case and new end feed chamber built in.  Now all refitted and got oil at the prv then nipped that up then few more kicks and got oil at the return pipe so coupled up the pipe, few more kicks and got a good squirt back into the tank😜
Plugs in and second kick away it went.
Ran like a Swiss watch, smooth, quiet and responsive. Ran it up to about 3000 rpm but didn't have time to do a proper heat cycle - that'll have to wait till the weekend.
Doesn't appear to be leaking anywhere and rev counter works - not sure how smooth these are meant to be.  Guess I'll need to see another one before I know if I have a problem but it did work - just not smooth(a bit digital).
Couldn't see any charging on the ammeter though. Again didn't have time to get the meter out and trace anything - ammeter works though as when I put the lights on it dips negative. I have a solid state reg so will start there.

Thanks for your help getting this bit right and glad I didn't bash on regardless. If it's worth doing and all that.
Cheers Raymond
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: chaterlea25 on 19.12. 2016 21:46
Hi Raymond,
Good news *smile*

With a fully charged battery and an electronic regulator you will not see a charge on the ammeter
Try running the engine with the lights on and see if the needle comes back to centre +

Yes the rev counter works in a series of steps

John
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Greybeard on 19.12. 2016 22:31
Yes the rev counter works in a series of steps
And the speedo - chronometric mechanism.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 20.12. 2016 09:25
Thanks guys - will try the lights on test as the battery is a new full sized gel effort that is fully charged.
Good news about the rev counter - I suppose these things are hard to say if it's right or wrong when I haven't seen a chronometric working before (and lots of other things on this bike).  Thanks for the heads up.

cheers Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: harvey mushman on 20.12. 2016 18:51
Excellent news been following this topic with interest!  *smile*
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 22.12. 2016 13:37
Just had a thought - with having to understand the oil circulation and end feed set up - I still have a grey area.
SO - I'm okay with my set up, I can see (know) where the oil goes and how it gets round the engine and end feed system - but how do the big ends get fed if you were running a standard bottom end with no end feed?  Is it just the overflow from the oil pump chamber filling up that dribbles oil down the crank or is it fed some other way?
Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: a101960 on 22.12. 2016 15:47
Raymond, the image below shows how the big ends are lubricated. Oil enters the crank under pressure via the plain bearing. The point of entry for the oil into the crank shaft oil way is shown as a  dotted line on the drawing. 
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Slippery Sam on 22.12. 2016 16:02
Enlightning - Thank you.
Yeh that makes sense of why the end feed goes with the roller bearing mod I guess.
Is that the sludge trap at the bottom of the picture then - being acted on centrafugally to grab any debris?
I have a spare standard crank so will have a closer look at that with this diagram as a reference.  It's nice to pick up the understanding as well as 'just getting a job right'.  Will try squirting some oil round the spare crank for good measure - just to see it with my own eyes.
I actually have a whole DA10R bottom end (and most of a top end) so might have a go at putting it all together - plain bearing style, for a side project.

cheers Raymond.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Zander on 04.02. 2017 12:41
Started re assembling the timing side of the engine today, having set the timing etc..
Examined the oil pump, and its got cracks all over the base - seems in a right old state.
When I first got the bike I checked that oil was returning to the tank, and it was fine but now I don't think it will be sensible to just put the pump back on. *sad2*
Am considering my options, i.e. Replace body only, or go for a new pump.  Was looking forward to getting it running by tomorrow, but now not going to happen!
 *sad2* *sad2* *sad2*
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Greybeard on 04.02. 2017 12:48
Is that the sludge trap at the bottom of the picture then - being acted on centrafugally to grab any debris?
The sludge trap is the hole concentric with the big end journals. There are large access plugs in the crank web. On my Plunger there is just a hollow but later engines have some sort of removable tube arrangement in there.
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: scotty on 05.02. 2017 07:56
Take this mugs advice and get a new pump
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Zander on 05.02. 2017 09:11
As they say in NCIS  "On It" *wink2*
Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: duTch on 05.02. 2017 09:46

 I bought a new cast iron High flow pump from John Phelan a while ago, and it works ok; Fairly sure Greybeard (GB) has the same. Can't recall John Phelans business name, although I saw the receipt the other day, much cheaper (and less fancy looking) than SRM but who cares we can't see it anyway.

 
Quote
Is that the sludge trap at the bottom of the picture then - being acted on centrafugally to grab any debris?

 No. As GB said, the sludge trap is at the top of the picture inside the big-end journal running horizontal from the right to what looks like a 'B' in the picture on the left B/E.
  Ray, (or whoever); in the groove in the right/timing side main journal opposite the big-end is a hole that the oil flows into- a 'gallery' through to the big ends just inside the plug, it's on a bit of an angle and poking a bit of wire down (or a pipe cleaner- or more appropriately a gun barrel brush), you'll see where it goes.

 Keeping its location in mind is important when reinstalling the plugs so they don't block the flow



Title: Re: Not oil circulation again?
Post by: Greybeard on 05.02. 2017 10:19
Found this online. Don't know if it's still accurate. Yes, I bought  a high flow cast iron pump from John. About half price of the SRM pump.