The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Goldy on 26.05. 2009 17:08

Title: Oil pump
Post by: Goldy on 26.05. 2009 17:08
I have finally fired up the A10 after 3 years building from bits. The sound of it made it all worth while.  I watched the top of the oil tank as the engine ran and the return oil spluttered through to eventually become a continuous stream. The level dropped so I topped it up. I then notoiced oil being forced through the timing side outer cover joint. I removed the cover and cleaned away the oil and started the engine with the cover removed. Oil immediately covered the oil pump. When I built the engine I stripped and cleaned the pump, I fitted a new joint gasket and tightened the screws, but did not over tighten. Any thoughts on this before I start dismantling.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: beezalex on 26.05. 2009 17:53
Groily, did you put the fiber washer/gasket spacer between the pump and the case at the front?  This is often forgotten but is critical in getting the oil pump to seal.  Otherwise, did you take the pump apart and flatten the joint faces and put a thin smear of sealant on them? 

Just some thoughts, hope they help.

Cheers, hope you find the issue soon.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: Goldy on 31.05. 2009 15:10
I have sealed the pump and I have the fibre washer in place, but still a lot of oil comming from the pump. I have built the machine from bits, so I do not know the history. When I remove the pump and look at the four drillings into the crankcase, the lower right hand hole is only about 15mm deep and is then blank. Is this correct. does anyone have any onfo on the crankcase drillings from the oil pump.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: bsa-bill on 31.05. 2009 15:35

the lower right hand hole is only about 15mm deep and is then blank.

Hi Goldie
one of the drillings has a non return vavle in it comprising a ball and spring, what you see will likely be the ball, get something like a cotton bud and cut off the wool from one end, then use to see if the ball can be pushed off it's seat.
The non return valve is only accessable from inside the crankcase.

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: a10gf on 31.05. 2009 20:02
Quote
I have finally fired up the A10 after 3 years building from bits. The sound of it made it all worth while.
Congrats !
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: Goldy on 06.06. 2009 17:11
I have stripped the pump again and sealed it. The hole drillings seem ok and the non return valve can be pushed open. I still have oil comming from the pump. If I fit the outer timing cover, it runs ok, but when I start up there is a continuous stream of oil at the tank return. After about 1 minute this reduces to an accasional splutter. Even if the revs are increased. What flow of oil would you expect to see. Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: LJ. on 06.06. 2009 17:28
Quote
when I start up there is a continuous stream of oil at the tank return. After about 1 minute this reduces to an accasional splutter. Even if the revs are increased.

I dont think you need worry Goldy, this is exactly what I see with my three A seris bikes! I think it's safe to say you can now screw on the oil cap and go for a long ride.  *yeah*
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: A10Boy on 06.06. 2009 19:35
There is no oil seal between the timing side bush and the oil pump / worm drive, if you run it without the outer cover oil will be blown out of the bush and cover the oil pump.

When the cover is fitted, the oil pump space within the covers fills with oil, - once its full it obviously doesn't fill any more and the oil goes where it should !

Congrats on your successful restoration let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: Richard on 06.06. 2009 20:34
the flow of oil back to the tank will be in a broken flow at times due to the scavange side of the pump operating faster than the supply side so what you are seeing is normal.
Happy riding
richard
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: rocket man on 06.06. 2009 21:04
go for a ride mate and enjoy, it all sounds normal to me
my engine does the same and its had a profesional full
rebuild on it

dave
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: RichardL on 06.06. 2009 21:35
G
the flow of oil back to the tank will be in a broken flow at times due to the scavange side of the pump operating faster than the supply side so what you are seeing is normal.
Happy riding
richard
oldy,

Yes, but if you are waiting more than 5 or 10 seconds with no flow at all, sputtery or otherwise, I think it is a problem. Agreed that the flow will not be a continuous stream, more like, sputter-sputter-flow-sputter-sputter-flow. This is not exactly literal, but I am trying to make the point that it should not  be a real long time between flows. There are folks here much more experienced than I, but, as I've described, I had a sputter-stop-stop-stop-sputter pattern and it turned out to be a bit of dirt in my supply line at the end of the armoured hose just as the oil enters the fitting. I'm thinking of taking a video of my oil return so others can comment. If it is agreed to be correct we should not have to use quite so many words in the future to unravel the facts.

Richard  L.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: rocket man on 06.06. 2009 22:21
yes send us a video so we can watch it in action
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: olev on 07.06. 2009 03:26
I sold the grand mothers back teeth, and bought an SRM oil pump the other day.
I quote from the included instructions:
 
"We DO NOT recommend the fitting of any obstruction in the oil lines such as filter kits or non return valves! The pump demands more oil from the oil tank and any restriction in the flow will be end in disaster!"

What are they on about? A "will be end in disaster" doesn't sound good. Surely their you beaut squillion dollar oil pump can handle a filter? I admit its a nice shade of blue but have I thrown away the kids inheritance on a prima donna?
cheers
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: Brian on 07.06. 2009 04:20
Its much more important that your bike has a nice oil pump than your granny has teeth, well done !!

It would pay to check with SRM just to cover any warranty type issues but I would be fairly sure they mean the inlet line, not the return as regards a in-line filter. Once again I wouldnt use any type of device in the feed line.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: rocket man on 07.06. 2009 15:12
hear hear your right dont use eany divice in the oil lines
it might end in tears *sad2*
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: rocket man on 07.06. 2009 15:16
bsa never fitted them and there are still a lot ove them around to tell
the tale it only takes a few minutes to empty the sump with a sump kit
it takes a lot longer to fix an engine because the  anti wet sump valve failed
or you forgot to turn the tap on  the oil feed *eek*
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: RichardL on 08.06. 2009 04:39
As threatened, here is a link to the video I've done showing oil returning at idle and at higher RPM. I've also taken the liberty of including some other views of the bike for your interest and amusement.

I would be more than a little interested if any of you folks with scads more experience decide this isn't what the flow should look like, in case I need to correct something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfJ2zigEbqo

Richard L.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: bsa-bill on 08.06. 2009 13:19
Like the colour scheme Richard - nice bike sounds just as an A10 should

The return oil flow is the same as mine and I don't consider mine to be too bad

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: RichardL on 08.06. 2009 13:33
Bill,

Thanks. The color scheme was nothing formal. I was at the paint shop thinking I was going to just go with black, but the painter (no classicist) talked me out of it. The color I picked was just something that appealed to me from a color chip in a book (if you're interested, PPG 5725).

I meant to mention something about the sound on the video. You might have noticed that part of the video (the beginning and end) was done in my garage and the middle part was done outdoors. This is because I had to go back and reshoot the higher RPM flow and edit-in the clip. The part shot outdoors sounds richer because it is not subject to all the acoustic reflections clattering things up as  when recording within the garage .

Richard L.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: A10Boy on 08.06. 2009 16:32
Thanks for the video

My oil flow is about the same, so we are finding a standard.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: Goldy on 08.06. 2009 19:44
I could not take the bike out for a ride as its not road legal yet, but I have left it running longer and the oil return is about the same as Manosounds film. I think I was being a bit cautious. Thank you all very much for your input and great film shoot ( you must be a professional film director Manosound).
When it stops raining I will take some pictures and post them on the forum.
thanks again.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: LJ. on 08.06. 2009 20:08
Oil flow looks good Richard! What oil is it? I've a feeling you use 20/50. It would be interesting to see the behaviour of different grades. My return is slightly different to yours, but then I am using straight mono 50.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: RichardL on 08.06. 2009 20:32
LJ,


Good observation. It is, indeed, Castrol 20/50 non-detergent. Now, I like science and empiracal testing as much as the next guy, but I don't think I'm ready to start doing a whole series of oil-flow videos for each favored type (unless, of course, I can get Mr. Bean to star in them).

Richard L.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: rocket man on 08.06. 2009 21:30
we could all film our oil flow and someone can judge
whose is the best my bike has the srm pump so it pumps more oil
so i might have an advantige at least you know theres nothing
to worry about *smile*
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: rocket man on 08.06. 2009 21:39
just watched your vid great sound you have a very nice bike there mate
love the paint youve got a normal oil flow aswell looks same as mine
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: mike667 on 08.06. 2009 23:15
I could not take the bike out for a ride as its not road legal yet

whats that have to do w/ taking for a ride? *eek*
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: 69Bonni on 09.06. 2009 08:57
I have always wondered....

Obviously SRM do some lovely bits and i wish i could have them all, but there is something thats always puzzled me about there high delivery oil pump.

High delivery? So is that higher volume? Higher Pressure? in which case would the pressure release valve not kick in and dump the excess oil? Dont get me wrong im not decrying the mechanical superiority of the SRM pump and id fit one tomorrow, it was just a thought that struck me.

BTW you should see my Bonnies Oil return that would frighten you, Makes the BSA look positively healthy!

Speaking of oil returns if you do fit a after market oil filter (highly recommended) in the oil return, dont forget to fit it AFTER the rocker feed, and to keep an eye on the oil return when you have a filter fitted.

Regards
Steve
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: LJ. on 09.06. 2009 09:06
I'm also wondering that if you fitted such a good pump with high delivery and pressure... Would this highly pressurised oil push out accumulated crud in the sludge trap?? and therefore messing up the bearings? I would have thought that by fitting a new pump you'd want to start off with a cleaned out engine. It's a worrying thought, all that muck that is in places where normal delivery had not touched it before.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: 69Bonni on 09.06. 2009 09:20
Hi LJ

I think you want to start with a good clean out make sure your oil tank is nice and clean, and run some thinner oil through the engine, then drain it, before fitting a new Pump. at the end of the day you can only have the pressure in the oil system that the pressure release valve allows, unless you "adjust" the valve with shims!

I think if you have a filter in the return and a magnetic sump plate you would be fine.
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: bsa-bill on 09.06. 2009 09:27

bsa never fitted them

Actualy Rocket man they did - theres's two of them in your oil lines

All the best - Bill ( who likes a friendly debate)
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: Dynamo Regulators Mike on 09.06. 2009 10:40
With a higher flow pump oil pressure will be higher at low speeds, but once up to the pressure regulator setting excess oil is by passed. No increase in flow though the crank, so no worries over sludge trap being disturbed. Whether there could be more problem of the extra oil being breathed out I don't know. But the SRM pump does appear a lot more efficient at low speeds which may be a worthwhile improvement.
Last time I monitored pressure (with a good standard pump) it reached 60 psi at little more than a fast idle even with the oil warm (not really hot), so no problem there.
I now have the earlier type WDB40 filter fitted and it appears to do a fine job. Found it easy to wash through the element for re-use which fits well with BSA maintenance tradition. Not burning oil now with new rings fitted, and its staying clean. *smile*
Can't see why you would want to take rocker feed off before the filter Steve ????. Filter pressure drop will then increase oil flow to the rockers which could lead to oil burning problems. 50 grade oil may not be a good idea with an external filter. When cold pressure drop could be excessive, at minimum leading to captured debris being reinjected into the flow, worse outright rupture *sad2*. Not nice. (Have just read an article on Dynamic Filter Efficiency which talks about pressure effects on filter elements, and worried myself a bit.)
So to work  *work* or is it more  *computer*

Mike
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: 69Bonni on 09.06. 2009 12:37
Mike,

I know a regulator like that good at slow running  *smiley4*

The problem with the oil filter fitted before the Rocker feed is mainly when you replacing the filter. When you start the engine you have "X" period of time with the Rockers getting no oil while the fillter primes unless you can pre fill the oil filter somehow, a little tricky depending on the orintation.

So what is worse i wonder??


I dont think id be using such heavy oils, I use a spin off cartridge filter, im not familiar with the WDB40?

Most oils even monogrades use detergent now, and i normally use Something like 20/50 and change very often.

Sometimes reading that sort of thing takes some digesting *eek* Thats the sort of thing i read at bed time *smiley4*

Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: rocket man on 09.06. 2009 22:15
when i had the srm pump installed on my engine it had a complete rebuild by srm
so the sludge trap would be clean also had the needle roller and end feed conversion
done aswell new conrods resleeved back to standerd belt drive clutch  i spent a lot ove
money on my bike because im keeping it heres a few pics ove engine
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: 69Bonni on 10.06. 2009 08:41
That looks Lovely Rocket Man

One thing you can say they do do a excellent job!

Steve
Title: Re: Oil pump
Post by: rocket man on 10.06. 2009 18:21
thanks steve your right carnt fault them
dave