The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: BSA500 on 26.04. 2017 09:36

Title: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 26.04. 2017 09:36
Hi,
 I have a 12 volt dynamo set up on my 1960 A7. One day charging fine the next not. Dynamo giving 20+ volts up to the regulator, but no charge on the ammeter. Ammeter shows discharge when lights on so I assume that works. Measured the output at the A connection and it's 3.3 volts. All earths/connections etc have been checked. I have sent a mail to Dynamo regulators for any info/help but this is way out of guarantee so not expecting a free replacement etc. Any thing I missed?. Also if they ask to test the reg would it be wise to disconnect the dynamo drive if I use the bike for work.As long as the battery is charged I only need brake lights.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: KiwiGF on 26.04. 2017 10:26
By A connection do you mean at the reg (brown wire) ? If so shouldn't that connection have battery voltage as a minimum, and say 13v plus when it's charging? Or did you measure it with it disconnected?

I'm assuming you've not had the battery out and put it back with connections reversed  *smile*

I'm not sure what voltage the brown wire would have when disconnected from a battery.  *dunno* Maybe someone could measure a 12v reg set up to see?

I don't think any harm comes to dynamos that are spinning but not connected to a reg. they don't generate high voltages that could damage it etc.

It does sound like the reg is duff but it's probably worth cleaning the commutator as the armature can give a reasonable voltage from residual magnetism (particularly if you are using a very sensitive voltmeter), but despite that it's still not able to give enough current to get the Dynamo going due to dirty brushes etc

Flashing the Dynamo might also be worth a try.



Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 26.04. 2017 11:29
By A connection do you mean at the reg (brown wire) ? If so shouldn't that connection have battery voltage as a minimum, and say 13v plus when it's charging? Or did you measure it with it disconnected?

I'm assuming you've not had the battery out and put it back with connections reversed  *smile*

I'm not sure what voltage the brown wire would have when disconnected from a battery.  *dunno* Maybe someone could measure a 12v reg set up to see?

I don't think any harm comes to dynamos that are spinning but not connected to a reg. they don't generate high voltages that could damage it etc.

It does sound like the reg is duff but it's probably worth cleaning the commutator as the armature can give a reasonable voltage from residual magnetism (particularly if you are using a very sensitive voltmeter), but despite that it's still not able to give enough current to get the Dynamo going due to dirty brushes etc

Flashing the Dynamo might also be worth a try.
I tested the brown wire disconnected as suggested on the Dynamoreg site. They state on the 12 volt setup I should see 14.2 volts. I know I have 20+ volts going into the reg. The dynamo was rebuilt in November by Priory magneto's as a 12 volt upgrade(the last rebuild was due to the D connection shorting not the 12 volt set up-somebody pinched the wire  *sad2*). The reg has been performing perfectly up to now. Commutator is still very clean. I see what you mean by current output but one day reg is fine next not *conf*
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: KiwiGF on 26.04. 2017 12:52
In this extract from the web site below it says measure 14.2v with it all connected? I guess it might say somewhere else one can measure the 14.2v with it also disconnected? ( I know this sounds argumentative but I'm just trying to help). I'm actually in the middle of wiring up my b31 with a brand new dvr2 so have the instructions to hand, and will be doing these exact same checks very soon  *smile*


"Charging Checks
After the DVR2 has been connected check all connections one more time according to the diagram above. Make sure that the dynamo is well earthed (no paint or corrosion blocking the current path). Start the engine and slowly increase speed until a small charge is shown on he ammeter. If this is not seen at about one third maximum revs, stop and check again. It is a good idea to measure the regulator output voltage at A (other lead to earth E). The regulator output should stabilise at 7.2 or 14.2 Volts as the speed is increased. In normal operation only a slight 'trickle charge should be seen on the ammeter (about 1⁄2 to 1 amp). A high charging current shown for a long period may indicate a very low or faulty battery or other problem requiring attention."
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 26.04. 2017 13:41
I sort of read that as reading from the A lead disconnected, but even connected no charge showing at the ammeter. I haven't measured across the battery but I would have to unmount the seat again. The lights do not brighten either when revved. Looks like a fubarred reg to me but I have asked the manufacturers for any input etc.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 26.04. 2017 14:17
Just spoke to Mick Hutchings at DYNOREGS and it seems likely the reg has gone south. He offered to test but taking into account the dynamo is putting out a strong volts and no changes to the wiring etc it would be wasted money on my part. From his records I purchased it in 2012 and since then they have been improved so prob best to go for a new one.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: Dynamo Regulators Mike on 26.04. 2017 14:33
To clarify; when correctly working the DVR2 and dynamo should show about 14.2 V with battery connected or not. The voltage will be a little less stable without battery as the battery characteristic 'damps down' any fluctuations.

it does appear that this DVR2 has failed, although it outlived a faulty dynamo, probably caused by overloading it with too powerful lamps.

I would be happy to test this regulator, free of charge (as it were), to confirm whether it is faulty as it seems, and if it is, to assess how it has failed.

Mike at Dynamo Regulators Ltd
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 26.04. 2017 14:46
To clarify; when correctly working the DVR2 and dynamo should show about 14.2 V with battery connected or not. The voltage will be a little less stable without battery as the battery characteristic 'damps down' any fluctuations.

it does appear that this DVR2 has failed, although it outlived a faulty dynamo, probably caused by overloading it with too powerful lamps.

I would be happy to test this regulator, free of charge (as it were), to confirm whether it is faulty as it seems, and if it is, to assess how it has failed.

Mike at Dynamo Regulators Ltd
Thanks for your advice/help. I will order a new one but if you wish I can send you the old one so you can play with it(but if it test's ok don't tell me  *smiley4*). Especially seeing as more improvements have been made to the current regulators against this one I bought in 2012. Maybe the years of pushing the dynamo somehow shortened the life of the reg?.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: muskrat on 26.04. 2017 21:11
I've had DVR2's on both my A's for years running 12 volt. The only time one failed was when a mate was helping me throw one back together. He put the battery in back to front.
Cheers
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 06.05. 2017 10:57
Well I have put the new regulator in and realised two things one I may have cocked up and two still no charge. I will deal with the cock up first. The facts are it did stop charging out of the blue. The dynamo is fine. When I checked the connections to the old reg it looks like I transposed the field/dynamo wires when I plugged it back together. So no charge at the ammeter(red) connection, or somehow 3 volts????. Last night I put in the new reg realised my error and wired it up as it should be. Now I have 14.2 volts at the red wire  *smile*. When I connect back into the loom nothing at the ammeter nothing across the battery, so whatever went wrong is still present. The ammeter shows discharge when lights on and all lights work. I tried a quick continuity check along the brown/white ammeter wire from the reg to the ammeter connection and got nothing but if I touched the ammeter body the meter buzzed. Is this wrong or a red herring??.
Please some suggestions on how to go about fault finding on this
thanks Andy
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: duTch on 06.05. 2017 12:03
 
Quote
....... The ammeter shows discharge when lights on and all lights work. ........

 Engine running or not?

 
Quote
.......but if I touched the ammeter body the meter buzzed. ....

 Presuming you mean the test meter buzzed; do you have anther reliable ammeter you can swap in? Like maybe use the multi-meter inline and see what happens? (if you didn't already)

 
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: JulianS on 06.05. 2017 12:12
The ammeter body should be plastic the only outside metal parts being the connectors and the bezel. Cant see why meter should buzz?

Try substituting another cable (for the brown/white) between the reg output and ammeter and number 3 connector on light switch.

Does the intensity of the lights increase with engine speed?
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: KiwiGF on 06.05. 2017 12:23
If you have 12v electrics the white wire should be disconnected eg not connected to the brown wire.

Is it connected to the brown wire? If so you will not get any charging I reckon.

Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 06.05. 2017 17:25
Right to answer some replies...
1. Engine not running. Start it and no movement to charge
2.Meter buzzed good idea about subbing in the meter
3.Ammeter body is metal all of them have been in the past. I will look ito testing all the wires but it's either the switch or ammeter giving me issue's ?
4. White wire is NOT connected. Testing at the reg from the red wire gives me 14.2 volts as it should. From there to the bike electrics it disappears.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: JulianS on 06.05. 2017 18:09
The first thing I suggest you establish is whether any current is getting to the ammeter via the brown/white cable.

Presuming that the regulator red cable is connected to the brown/white which goes to ammeter and light switch, then disconnect the brown/white from ammeter and switch and  a test with engine running should show the about same voltage at disconnected end of brown/white end as it does at the red cable.

If not then logically the cable or connection with the red is faulty.

Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 06.05. 2017 18:21
The first thing I suggest you establish is whether any current is getting to the ammeter via the brown/white cable.

Presuming that the regulator red cable is connected to the brown/white which goes to ammeter and light switch, then disconnect the brown/white from ammeter and switch and  a test with engine running should show the about same voltage at disconnected end of brown/white end as it does at the red cable.

If not then logically the cable or connection with the red is faulty.
Looks like I have found the issue. Brown and white wire connects into a double connection. 14 volts in 12.2 out. Badly corroded so much so I cannot disconnect the bullet connections. B******s all this for a crappy connection.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 07.05. 2017 17:56
Just shoot me now and save me from this. So changed the connections. No charge-what??. Checked d&f together 20+ volts. Connected up the reg checked the output at A(Brown wire) and got 3-4 volts sometimes jumping up in value to 10 volts(as the engine slowed strangely). Now I know the reg is good and last night it was giving 14 volts rising smoothly with revs. What happened. Checking the wiring and its a mess so I am stripping it off and repairing it.
 Odd thing is the reg output was wired to the front brake switch so I am not sure how it even worked(and it did for many many years). I am at a loss, I cleaned up all the earths,checked the dynamo earth. I tested the reg in isolation so regardless of wiring issues it should still work. Arrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.(I would like to say that helped but it didn't)
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: KiwiGF on 07.05. 2017 22:11
Maybe try getting the Dynamo to power a headlight bulb? By putting 12v through the field, and a 12v bulb on armature terminal. It's possible for a Dynamo to give volts on test, but not current. It would also be a good idea to check the polarity of the Dynamo as well, given all you've been through it could have got switched over! (By an inadvertent "flashing")

Possibly do the same test (with a bulb) with the brown wire off the reg and with the reg otherwise fully connected into the circuit, digital volt meters can give odd readings when the supply being measured it's not steady, a bulb is a more reliable test.



Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 08.05. 2017 09:02
Maybe try getting the Dynamo to power a headlight bulb? By putting 12v through the field, and a 12v bulb on armature terminal. It's possible for a Dynamo to give volts on test, but not current. It would also be a good idea to check the polarity of the Dynamo as well, given all you've been through it could have got switched over! (By an inadvertent "flashing")

Possibly do the same test (with a bulb) with the brown wire off the reg and with the reg otherwise fully connected into the circuit, digital volt meters can give odd readings when the supply being measured it's not steady, a bulb is a more reliable test.
When I test the regulator it is not connected to the loom /power so the field is not juiced. The only facts I know about this whole car crash is the charging was working the next day it wasn't. The dynamo gives 20+ volts when joining D&F with no reg connected. It was rebuilt in Nov by Andy at Priory mags so I have no doubts about that side of things. Its the 12 volt armature which has been very stable. The only thing I have not done is run a separate earth for the reg so I will do that tonight. I am also going to pull out the loom and repair that and set it up as the diagram suggests it should be. I have added extra earths etc over the years and its a mess really.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 09.05. 2017 10:06
Right. Last night removed the loom to tidy it up/repair whatever. Before I did I wired a separate earth to the reg and the brown output to a meter. The reg showed output but it was bouncing all over the place 4 to 10 back to 4 up to 11 etc. Is this because its not wired to the battery/loom etc. I know the earth was good I know the dynamo is putting out a consistent 20+ volts on the meter. The reg is new I am at a loss. I will wait until I have rewired and test again but if that's the same where do I go next. Send the reg to Mike for him to test it ??.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: KiwiGF on 09.05. 2017 12:08
If it's a digital volt meter it may very well bounce around if the reg does not provide stable voltage (it probably doesn't but gives "bursts" of power but the makers would know more) you will be best to connect to a battery to do a meaningful test, as that will stabilise the charging voltage.

If the charging voltage is not stable an old style mechanical voltmeter will give nearer to an average voltage as it cannot react quickly and that would probably be meaningful, a digital meter which can react quickly will usually try to "follow" the voltage fluctuations and will "bounce around" as a consequence.



Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 09.05. 2017 14:50
If it's a digital volt meter it may very well bounce around if the reg does not provide stable voltage (it probably doesn't but gives "bursts" of power but the makers would know more) you will be best to connect to a battery to do a meaningful test, as that will stabilise the charging voltage.

If the charging voltage is not stable an old style mechanical voltmeter will give nearer to an average voltage as it cannot react quickly and that would probably be meaningful, a digital meter which can react quickly will usually try to "follow" the voltage fluctuations and will "bounce around" as a consequence.
Thanks that could be the issue. I think I should make sure the wiring is sorted, check over the dynamo(polarity etc paranoid check  :! ) and then start again.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 10.05. 2017 09:04
Did a polarity check last night and everything is as it should be.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: Greybeard on 10.05. 2017 10:22
...a digital meter which can react quickly will usually try to "follow" the voltage fluctuations and will "bounce around" as a consequence...
This had me pondering about connecting a suitable capacitor across the meter to damp fluctuations. What do you electro-blokes think about that?
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: Bsareg on 10.05. 2017 19:09
You would also need a resistor to discharge the capacitor or it would just show peak voltage as the internal resistance of a digital meter is several million ohms and could take some minutes to show the correct reading. A side light bulb in parallel with the meter leads and capacitor would be OK.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 13.05. 2017 11:23
Hoo-bloody-ray. She is now charging. Rebuilt the loom got rid of surplus wires and dodgy connections and she now charges as she should. Prob the old reg is fine but I don't care anymore  *smile*
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: Slippery Sam on 16.05. 2017 13:22
whoop whoop
Well done - I bet you let out a decent sigh of relief when you saw it working correctly.
Good perseverance - it paid off even if it were a tad frustrating for you at times.
These kind of things can get really technical and go down all sorts of roads, it's a bit like navigating and choosing the right direction.  In the end it so often turns out to be a dodgy wire or duff connector hidden away somewhere and not the highly technical stuff.
Good job and another good thread working through the logic and trials and tribulations.
Stick in!
Raymond.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 16.05. 2017 13:31
whoop whoop
Well done - I bet you let out a decent sigh of relief when you saw it working correctly.
Good perseverance - it paid off even if it were a tad frustrating for you at times.
These kind of things can get really technical and go down all sorts of roads, it's a bit like navigating and choosing the right direction.  In the end it so often turns out to be a dodgy wire or duff connector hidden away somewhere and not the highly technical stuff.
Good job and another good thread working through the logic and trials and tribulations.
Stick in!
Raymond.
Thanks. Partly because I am bloody minded I worked my way through it. Partly also there are no people/places locally that could understand, what is actually a very simple wiring set up, enough to be able to help. If it can't be plugged into a computer they are lost. I'm not putting them down it's just progress. Also problem solving like this takes time and time is money  :! . Hopefully a full summer of riding awaits then come winter the gearbox will get some attention(I would like to work on the car project now)
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: beezermacc on 16.05. 2017 23:38
Delighted you got it sorted. This is how experts are made!
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 17.05. 2017 09:13
I think I now actually understand the wiring on this bike. It went very well yesterday,charging spot on. Pity about the leaky rockerbox, a little oil goes a long way  *sad2*
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 19.05. 2017 11:13
Just to end this thread. Rode the bike through a monsoon yesterday with the lights on all the way home(13 miles). Charging was faultless *smile*
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 15.06. 2017 10:45
From the duff battery thread here we go again. Battery def gone and now no charging. I hate the world all over again.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: duTch on 15.06. 2017 11:14

 I suggest buying the cheapest battery you can find of reasonable capacity (I used a 6N6-1B-1, that's 6AH, and now keep it charged as a 'spare')  until you know you don't have a component fault
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 15.06. 2017 12:01
I popped the current (current get it :) ) battery on charge for 12 hours and no improvement so I think that's had it.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: Butch (cb) on 15.06. 2017 13:30
Voltage reg? Though I think you said you'd fitted a new one.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 15.06. 2017 13:33
I did. I am hoping for a slipping dynamo drive.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 20.06. 2017 12:31
When I started at Simms, battery plates were 3mm thick and never failed.
When I left they were 0.5mm thick and broke if you looked hard at them. On our motorcycle you have to fit either
1) AGM PVR sealed batteries
or
2) Cyclons with curved plates that don't break & fall off.

Down side is
1) both are expensive
2) limited range in 6 V
I used to run 2 x 2.5 Ah cyclongs in parallel to give me 5 Ah however they were so reliable I took one out to use in another bike.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 20.06. 2017 13:34
posted this in the duff battery thread as an update..

Okay some testing done...
1. Dynamo drive/chain ok no slip or breaks
2. Dynamo wiring/brushes etc a ok no issues
3. Dynamo output 20+ volts rising smoothly(tested at regulator connections) its a 12v armature
4. Brown wire from regulator to ammeter/battery etc disconnected and tested
5. 4 volts max  rising smoothly to 4v but no more  *conf*
6. Red earth cable from regulator tested with audible tone a ok
7. ? This reg is brand new so it shouldn't be a problem the last one lasted 5 years until this exact same symptoms happened. Sorry but it has to be said WTF.
I am going to send the reg for testing as a double check and go from there. I will use the bike for work as its daylight only and now with a new battery fitted I will have brake lights.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 24.06. 2017 20:12
Regulator sent off for testing. So she has been a little difficult to start even with a new mag. So checked the mag timing and yes a little retarded so took the pinion off, actually no the bloody extract bolt has decided that's the last thing it's going to do. Am I cursed. Shoot me it would be a kindness. I just want to ride it,its bloody summer.
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 10.07. 2017 12:55
So update new reg fitted rebuilt mag fitted both working faultless :)
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: Topdad on 10.07. 2017 16:02
Great now ride it ,with a big grin ....at last!
Title: Re: Stopped charging
Post by: BSA500 on 10.07. 2017 22:32
Will do. I can ride through Kent's beautiful countryside to get to work each day :)