The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Frame => Topic started by: coater87 on 03.05. 2017 23:26
-
Ok,
The distance between my brand new fork shroud ears is 7 and 7/8 inches. I just got these from Burton Bike Bits. Paid a metric ton for shipping too.
I hold the headlamp bucket up, and its an inch too narrow. The bucket measures 7 and 3/8 at its widest point. The mounts on the headlight are 6 and 7/8 inches apart at their widest point.
So which part is the dodgiest?
Please say the headlight bucket. The one I have was purchased 25 years ago and says "made in Taiwan" on it, and bought from a shady guy in Chicago.
The fork shrouds are new and look OK.
-
Lee, I think that the headlight is OK.
I measured roughly on a Rocket and the mounting dimensions of the bucket seems about right.
-
I mounted one side of headlight, here is my view.
-
Are they the right fork yokes for the job ?
I don't know the history of my bucket that I acquired well used (beat up*) late '80's/early '90's but looks like an upside-down version of yours with a different profile at the top, and just measured it at ~6,15/16" external across mounts, and fits a 7" reflector ok, but there's different profiles of them too *pull hair out*
**When I say " a different profile at the top", mine is round all round, but I did say it was beat up, so I beat it into unbeat, and maybe should have unbeat the flat spot *eek*
-
I agree with Dutch, the fork yokes are in the equation as a possible cause, really early (longstroke) a7's (I assume you have not one of those?) had wider yokes and larger headlights to suit. I just measured my 56 a10 and 1950 ish b31 and the stanchions are 7" centre to centre, measured across the top nuts.
The shrouds should have the "ear" roughly in the middle eg in the middle of the stanchion (if one could see it) if that makes sense.
I attach a pic of my b31 forks.
-
My 1962 A10 is fitted with shrouds (which fit perfectly) from Burton Bike Bits - bought in 2013.
Measurements as follows;
Fork centres = 6.75 inches.
Between mounting points on genuine olds make lucas shell = 7 inches. (external)
Between ears on shrouds = 7.1 inches (internal)
Photo shows where the ears are attached.
I think the early A7 had 7 1/4 inch between fork centres.
-
Top yoke has casting number 42-5035 which appears to be right for the bike.
I have taken a picture of the bottom yoke because I cannot find a casting number on it.
The approximate center to center on the top nuts is 6 and maybe 7/8, its hard to be exact because the nuts are domed very shallow.
In the picture you can see mount holes, can anyone confirm this is correct for a 58 swing arm flash?
The fork legs appear parallel, just the shrouds ears are skewed at an outward angle.
Julian, would you be able to take a picture of the front side of you lower yoke where the shrouds mount? I would like to see if yours differ from mine.
Thanks guys,
Lee
-
Bottom yoke looks fine, looks just like mine, the screw holes are for mounting the horn in the nacelle of 1958 on Flash.
Hope the photos are useful.
-
Thanks Julian, I have the same set-up. But me shrouds are almost 8 inches apart *sad2*
So another reproduction part is made terribly wrong, not a big shocker. Has anyone dealt with BBB in this type of situation?
-
I E-mailed BBB, and he asked if I was using the spacers ( *sad2*) and if I could send him some pictures. So I sent a bunch of pictures and an explanation of what exactly the problem is and reminded him the BSA does not require any spacers. Maybe he was thinking about a square four, I dont know.
I will keep you informed as to whats happening here.
Lee
-
well,
This explains all about BBB:
Hi Lee,
It isn't something which we have encountered before. Are you using the
spacers? Can you send a photo of your setup?
(So I wrote back:)
Hello Danny,
Im not sure what you mean by spacers, I think your thinking about an Ariel. This is a BSA flash.
I took a bunch of pictures, more than 1 e-mail worth, so I will send multiples so you get an idea of whats happening here.
Basically I put the forks together yesterday, the top and bottom yokes are correct numbers for the bike. I did not notice until I held up the headlight how far the fork ears point out to the sides. The headlight is the correct width for the bike, thats the first thing I thought of. Its 7 and 3/8 wide at the furthest out mounting points, the fork ears are over 8 inches inside to inside. The right side seems to be pointed out to the side even further than the left, but neither is straight. Im struggling to explain, I think the pictures will make it much more clear.
I sent him 8 very clear photos of the problem, and even included one of Julians bike with the tape measure stretched across the perfectly fitting shrouds.
( Here is his reply:)
Hi Lee,
The BSA A10 uses headlamp mounting spacers. That will make up the difference. This is standard fitting
The number to use is 68-5108 ?1.99 each
The brackets need to point outwards to align with the headlamp.
I hope that helps
Regards,
Danny Page
(So I wrote back:)
Hi Danny,
I believe 68-5108 was first used in 1966 on the A65 which used different fork shrouds 8 years later, none of the parts drawings for the A10 show any spacers. Here is a picture of the A10 fork shrouds and headlight arrangements for this bike, I got this from the web instead of my own parts books because my scanner is on the blink again.
www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/bsa/bsa/a710--b3133--c101112--m202133/category/938-938-
Those spacers mentioned are thin, I have over an inch of gap to take up on the right side, and 1/4 of that on the left to center up the headlight on the forks. I dont want to attempt to just "crank" the right side in at all, I think that will do nothing but bend up the fork ear.
After posting this problem on the BSA A7/A10 forum, I got a few very good pictures of how the fork shrouds should look when installed, they are facing straight forward. As a matter of fact, it was a member there that recommended I get these from you. He bought a set a while back that fit perfectly, and those are facing straight forward and not splayed out at two different angles as this set is.
I really believe that neither of these fork shrouds is made correctly, the right side being much worse than the left. I dont want to put an inch of spacers on the right side and none or one on the left, just to center up the headlight to where it should be- it would look terrible and be completely wrong for any bike.
I paid almost as much in shipping as I did for the shrouds, and they are made wrong. How do you normally handle cases like this?
Lee
(So here is the reply:)
Hi Lee,
This would be the first issue we have had in 25 plus years of selling them. There is always a first of course!
Without actually seeing them, it is hard for us to make a judgement. We do have a bike here which we can try them on, and I will get someone to try a set on which we have here asap.
I can only suggest that if you are sure that they don?t fit, you return them to us for us to test.
You are right, part number 68-5108 is a later number, but those are the spacers commonly used. As for the parts book illustration, I don?t believe that the bolts are shown either, that doesn?t mean that they aren?t used, probably were originally part of the headlamp, with the spacers.
Regards,
Danny Page
*angry* *angry* *angry*
So obviously, Danny Page knows nothing about A10 motorcycles or gives two giant sh*^$ about customer service.
The pictures clearly show these are defective, but I can (at my own additional cost) send these back to a bodging jackass to "test" knowing he is OK with jamming 10 spacers in one side of a headlight, and 1 in the other side and calling it Good Enough. Because I am obviously too stupid to know when a part does not fit.
Then of course you get the same old bullsh*t about "never had a bad one before" even though everything he sells must be from India to be this poorly made.
So now I take this right in the ass, 200 pounds for junk parts. Because it will eventually cost me 500 pounds for this A-Hole to admit he sold me junk, and then send me a new one that will be just as crappy as the old one.
And at this point my only option is to start grinding off the new powder coat I paid for, start cutting and welding these "Bestest Quality UK Made" parts just to try and get them to fit. *angry*
-
G'day Lee.
Sounds like your getting the "royal run around".
I'd suggest you send Danny a link to this topic
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=11666.msg89200;topicseen#msg89200
I doubt if he'd like the bad publicity. Like another supplier has been getting lately!
This forum has 100's of visitors daily.
Cheers
-
Thats a good idea!
I last e-mailed that He didnt need to do any testing, you could hold them up and see they were not right. He never got back to me. Zero customer service or knowledge of these bikes.
I did math I have not done since high school, The right side was off 12 degrees, the left side off 3 degrees from the center line of the bike. I figured that out using the radius and the distance of an arc (I did have to look some of it up, I remember just enough to screw it up *conf*).
Anyway, here it is in the mocked up state. You can tell how good these were by how far I had to slot the mounting holes. Plus I had to move the level of the slots to get a better fit at the top.
I used a slitting saw on the tabs to make the fronts "longer", then bent them to shape with a couple small pieces of aluminum and a large pliers.
All I had that came close enough to size of the holes was a dremel grinding stone, It worked. The backs had to be ground the same as the fronts, just the opposite way.
Now its just welding the slots back into holes, trimming the tabs back to the correct shape, and getting them painted or powder coated. An awful lot of time, effort, and soon to be money on brand new parts this guy has never had a problem with.
-
Hi Lee,
Have a look at this set from the same place.
They were bought some time ago by a friend who thought they would suit his A65 and then he bought a chromed set supposedly of the correct type which I have mentioned elsewhere.
Having seen your issues, I thought that I would mock up them in a project under way.
The pictures tell it all, bestest quality. *angry*
Obviously there is no point in mentioning to the supplier as they have no problems with them.
-
geez you guys have me worried now, I bought new shrouds from Dragonfly a few years back now (they actually "look" good) and have yet to assemble them onto the bike (bit like my Armour exhausts bought many years ago and still not assembled!), My bike was a mess when purchased so I've spent years just collecting parts ready to restore it and as you know from my posts, things never actually work out as planned, each step requires some manipulation somewhere *work* *pull hair out*...good luck Lee!
PS I think the only thing I've purchased from BBB was a front guard stay supposedly for a standard deep GF guard, needless to say it was wrong!! and their response was "well that's what it is designed for and its the only one we have" (per their literature it was for this purpose) "so send it back if its wrong", yep postage back from Australia, forget it!
-
Hi All,
If taper roller steering head bearings are fitted then a gap will appear between the shrouds and top yoke
Even with "original" shrouds you need to do some work to get them to,
Not "grind" on the seal holders
and also not gouge the mudguard *problem* *problem* *problem*
John
-
Hi, a new member here. New to A7/10s but sadly not new to pattern part shite. I reckon we could all write books on this sort of crap (I know I could anyway!)
I think you took the only available course of action, that is to break out the workshop tools and make the stuff fit like it should. I don't understand how pattern part makers turn out such shite....it costs no more to get the h/lamp ears on straight as on the p*ss, so take a bit of care and get it right.
Alternatively, pattern part sellers only sell useable stuff and reject the rest..it can't be that hard?
-
Those shrouds are dreadful.
The photo of mine below shows that yours were not made to the same dimensions, the pinch bolt holes being in just the right position and drilled 10mm.
Bought them for ?45 each plus post plus VAT in August 2013.
I went to BBB, having bought a pair which were found to be 1 inch too short, from another supplier (who no longer advertises)
Danny Page just needs to measure a pair of his shrouds, pinch bolt hole centre to fork shaft centre and compare with a bottom yoke to see that they are made wrongly.
-
Hi All,
First off, it is great to see a good A7/A10 forum with lots of members!
Lee (Coater87) asked us to take a look at this discussion on his fork shroud issues so we thought it best to respond on here and I will do my best to answer any other questions which have been raised
As mentioned to Lee by email, this is not an issue we have encountered before, but as also mentioned, that doesn?t mean that there cannot be a first time. I see that another user of this forum has had an issue with fitting, however if we are not told, we cannot improve the items. We do test items, but to test every single item we are sending is not viable. We stock over 30,000 lines! These fork shrouds are made in England, and we actually have a new batch on order, we are now down to the last set. The previous 48 pairs of this batch have sold without any REPORTED issues. As a user stated earlier in this thread, these bikes are 60 plus years old, many bikes have had parts replaced etc over the years and so in some situations, a part which fits straight on to one bike, will not fit another. I am not saying that this is the case with these brackets but it is a challenge which we sometimes face. +99% of our orders are without any issue
We have taken the time to loosely assemble the brackets to a yoke and headlamp. Photos attached. We have also used the spacers which we believe should be fitted and the headlamp mounts perfectly.The Lucas part numbers are as follows:
LU112201 Bolt
LU137141 Spacer (not available so we use 68-5108)
The above is taken from a Lucas catalogue and the above are shown as included with the headlamp, hence not in the BSA parts book. We do have some of these genuine headlamp brackets which have a spacer welded into the bracket, but also others which don?t. There are no changes to part numbers though.
I understand that these things are often urgent, due to the restoration job being in progress, however when we are asked to investigate an issue; looking over photos, measurements and pulling items off the shelves to test and measure, it does take time. Lee, you emailed us on Friday 5th, and then complained publically on this forum on Sunday 7th that we didn?t get back to you, I think that this is unfair. We do not work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, although we do attempt to respond to all enquiries as quickly as possible.
I also stated that you could return the items to us for our investigation, if the item is faulty then we would refund on this. I am unsure as to how else we can resolve the issue?
Shipping charges; you mention that you paid a significant amount to us for shipping these items. Our shipping prices are lower now than they have been for 15 maybe 20 years, due mainly to the amount of parts which we ship overseas. It is now generally cheaper for a USA customer to purchase from us than it is for a UK customer due to lack of taxes.
We work very hard to source parts which are unavailable elsewhere, whether it be finding NOS items, or manufacturing items in the UK. Unfortunately it is often very difficult to get items made in the small batches required for our niche to the quality and price required. We are enthusiasts, and want to keep as many of these bikes on the road as possible and we do try our best to get things right wherever possible! It is the nature of these bikes that some items don?t fit without some form of fettling, but that is all part of the fun isn?t it?
Again, I am unsure on how you want us to resolve this?
Regards,
Danny
-
G'day Danny, thank you for your response. *welcome*
We need to find a bog stock A7/10 as it left the factory or a BSA produced photo/brochure showing the headlight ears/fork shrouds to put the matter to bed.
My 51 A7 was bought of the original owner and it didn't have the spacers (came from the factory with the earlier rigid tool box). My 57 A7SS didn't have them either. I can't recall ever seeing the spacers fitted to an A7/10 but I haven't seen as many as some members.
Obviously you do care, shown by your response and we appreciate suppliers manufacturing obsolete parts (especially Made In England). Unfortunately not all strive for quality over cost. I would pay double for a part to fit straight out of the box than one I had to "fettle".
Cheers
-
Thanks Muskrat!
We absolutely want parts to fit easily for our customers and that is why, where possible, we have parts made by our trusted manufacturers in the UK. However, as mentioned earlier, a part which fits perfectly on 99 bikes, doesn't fit on number 100. That one item which does not fit is the one which generally gets mentioned on forums etc online. That is part of business now, but we obviously want to improve to limit that as much as possible. It is interesting that of the issues we have with parts not fitting, or even not being up to the quality standards of customers, quite a high %age are genuine NOS items. I think that shows how difficult it is to get right for everyone! It is important to remember that these bikes were not all exactly the same when they were assembled (have you ever seen the factory footage of exhaust systems being fitted with a long iron bar and a rubber mallet?). After this amount of time there are bound to be further discrepancies. That isn't to say that every part we have ever sent out is 100% accurate!
As for the spacer, the standard bolts LU112201 are 1 1/4" under head. Without any spacer that is a very long bolt which goes some distance into the headlight shell.. Sometimes applying logic to things like this doesn't work, but it does seem strange to have such a long bolt if a spacer isn't used. Do your headlamp brackets have a spacer on them?
The pinch bolts should be 5/16", however we have in the past seen later A65 bottom yokes used, which have 3/8" bolts. This obviously causes problems with the brackets.
The headlamps should also have 5/16" nuts in them to take the LU112201. Many of the aftermarket headlamps use a metric nut and so different bolts are fitted, which again can lead to problems. It seems that Coater87's headlamp doesn't have any nuts in it? I believe that this is also an aftermarket headlamp, again it is very hard to tell but the mounting flats seem to be at an angle?
-
As for the spacer, the standard bolts LU112201 are 1 1/4" under head. Without any spacer that is a very long bolt which goes some distance into the headlight shell.. Sometimes applying logic to things like this doesn't work, but it does seem strange to have such a long bolt if a spacer isn't used. Do your headlamp brackets have a spacer on them?
On my plunger that has the cowpat cowl I was suprised at how long the, (new from Draganfly) retaining screws are. No spacers on my setup.
-
Danny
I bought a pair of your A10 fork shrouds back in August 2013.
They fitted my 1962 A10 perfectly. Mated with an original Lucas headlight shell which has captive nuts welded on the inside for the fixing bolts. No fettling and definately no spacers needed. Not enough space for a spacer without bending the ears outwards. Would look very odd with spacers.
Looking at mine and then the photos of those of Coater87 they dont look the same part, like the maker has changed the pattern.
-
Danny,
Notice how the shrouds Trevinoz shows (also purchased from you) dont fit well either, his "look" to the right, and both bells are pinched completely at the leg.
As I show in the pictures, mine had two completely different angles as far as ear mounting. I had to go from 8 inches wide (you are the only one who believes spacers were used) to seven inches wide and "aim" them for the bike. My right ear was further out than the left ear.
I really dont think its fair to describe cutting, bending, slotting, then having to strip, weld, and repaint brand new parts as "fettling". And no, it is not fun when you will have to keep pouring money into parts that are described as good quality.
Your web page for these exact parts states: "not to be confused with poorly fitting Indian copies" *conf*
If I would have bought them from India, I would have had to do the same work. I just would not have had to pay twice for powder coat or had to strip them, and they would have been cheaper to start with.
I paid 29 pounds for shipping one way, now if I sent them back and forth to you, it would be 87 pounds in shipping, and still you would believe it best to jam in spacers. So nothing would be accomplished, except me being out even more money.
Now shipping may be at its cheapest, but its still not inexpensive.
I wish you would add a top tree and a couple of legs to your set-up. I think you might see these parts in a new light, and might even contact your supplier. Something bad has happen between 2013 and now....
Lee
-
I'm suprised that no one has challenged this picture. Surely this headlamp shell is not the correct one; there is no cutout for the switch panel. I've been looking through images of BSA's to try and find evidence of spacers. I found this but the chap is asking if it's correct for his '52 A7: http://www.britbike.com/ubb/bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=10;t=007803
I've not found any pictures that show spacers.
-
Some random pictures of BSA A series headlamps
-
Hi Lee,
The spacer issue requires more investigation. It seems that nobody here has a spacer fitted, however, the A65 models which use the same size yoke, headlamp and headlamp brackets (albeit shorter) require a spacer as shown in the parts book, which doesn't seem to make any sense.
JulianS, your purchase in 2013 was obviously a different batch, however we are not aware of any changes being made to the jig or process. Again we have sold 48 pairs of this latest batch without any reported problems, it seems that another forum member here had some issues, although different to those experienced by Lee.
With regards to the modifications you have done to the bracket, I think that I should again point out that you first notified us on this by email on Thursday 4th May. We responded on the same day to ask for more information/photos etc. then had an exchange of emails on the Friday where we advised sending them back if you couldn't make them work so that we could investigate. In the meantime over the weekend you have publically stated that we have not responded to you in a timely fashion, and carried out modifications to the part which means we cannot find an issue to the problem. We have carried out some tests and measurements, provided photos and signed up to this forum as requested. I really don't know what else we can do. If an item is faulty then there isn't a great deal we can do without having it back! As mentioned, if there is a fault found with an item, then the shipping would be reimbursed and if possible, a suitable replacement sent. There is always a possibility of a one off problem part, even in a small batch, these are small quantity items which are made to a price which is acceptable for this market.
Greybeard, you are correct, the headlamp shell we have used is not the standard one (we are out of stock), it is however the same size. And yes, that headlamp on the post here: http://www.britbike.com/ubb/bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=10;t=007803 does show spacers as we believe they should have.
As mentioned, we have a new batch of these on order, so will investigate more with the last remaining set, and also dig out the genuine samples for comparison to make sure that we aren't missing anything. However, if we are to change the jig, would that mean that 48 out of 50 would not fit? *conf*
-
I agree, I've never seen a headlamp mounted with spacers like that, its looks wrong (and ugly!)......
-
It's simple really, what we as customers want is:
Parts that fit
Suppliers that refund all costs including overseas shipping when they stuff up
Suppliers that will admit a part is duff, when it is
Doesn't sound unreasonable does it....
Until suppliers step up I guess we will tend to buy locally (even in nz there are a couple of brit bike parts suppliers) and search out used original parts on eBay etc, even when they cost silly money!
I really struggle with the issue that when a supplier stuffs up the customer is left out of pocket due to incurring shipping costs......it's just wrong.
-
Hi KiwiGF,
Please see my post above, if parts are found to be incorrect, we refund return shipping.
Yes there are some dealers in NZ, Australia and all over the world. We supply many of them with parts too! I think that the Classic Bike community is very lucky to have a network of parts dealers who make it easier to restore and maintain these bikes.
We have thousands of happy customers all over the world, however hard we try, and it seems other dealers who are getting a hard time, it is impossible to please everybody, no matter what industry. Parts availability is better now than it has ever been, and this is down to dealers investing significant amounts of money in slow moving stock which can sometimes sit on the shelves for years before any return is made. That is the business we are in, and we enjoy seeing photos of restored bikes owned by our customers.
We will investigate the above issues with the headlamp brackets before we produce any more. I will attempt to update this page with the outcome.
-
Just to add my tuppence worth . My '59 bitza doesn't have spacers and none of my previous A10'sand A7SS have either infact my headlight shell is a pretty tight squeeze in my present bike .I also always thought the long nut was so that a decent earth could be obtained (?) . Perhaps a compromise ,seeing as Danny is so sure about there parts quality, between Lee and BBB would be for them to supply another pair of the "new batch " to show lee the difference and then come to an amicable arrangement over total costs after all although Lee is in the states surely He is ( from a company looking for customer satisfaction ) entitled to the same protection as we would be IE sale of goods act , items provided must be fit for the purpose they were intended for, sorry to say looking at Lee's they aren't.
If not maybe for the future we could devise a plan where uk members would initially obtain parts to check for our overseas friends, we could check the bits out and return crap from here, just a thought maybe not practical but may help
-
The fact that we can currently buy many parts from different suppliers for our ancient motorcycles is amazing to me. I have had issues with parts from suppliers including BBB but overall I've had good experiences.
The problem for suppliers of parts like this is that the customer probably does know a lot more about his beloved machine than the retailers representative and to be assured that that part is correct for your machine and that no one else has had any problems with that part is infuriating. Maybe a change to a more 'The customer might be right' attitude would help even if it turns out later that they are wrong!
-
I have made great effort to point out that we are not right 100% of the time, and that sometimes there are issues with parts. In the same way that sometimes the customer does not know what they want, or even what bike they have and we have to attempt to work this out.
As stated, in this case, we said that the part could be returned, tested, and if found to be faulty a replacement would be sent at our cost and the return shipping refunded, or a full refund given. I cannot see how we can say fairer than that. The item has now been modified to fit and so that is no longer an option. We are now looking into the issue, but again, 99% of this batch have been sold without any known issues, this item could therefore have been a one off, or there may be an issue with the yoke or setup. It is impossible to tell from photos alone.
-
Danny,
The e-mails we exchanged have been posted, never once did you offer to pay shipping or a refund of any shipping cost to send them back.
That is something You have only mentioned here on this forum, never once to me. You made it clear that my only option was to return the parts for you to "test", and from the pictures you posted of a badly mounted headlight, any set of fork shrouds would pass your quality assurance standards.
So I paid 100 for the shrouds, plus 29 in shipping. I would have had to pay 29 more to ship them to you for "testing", plus 29 more if I wanted them back (because they are "Good Enough" for Burton Bike Bits). I would still have bad shrouds, and be out another 58 pounds.
Does that sound about right?
Lee
-
Well, this certainly has become a contentious issue. I can understand Lee's frustration and anger regarding the faulty shrouds, but I also understand Danny's difficulty in trying to, first, evaluate the situation from afar and, then (or, now, even if late) trying to right the situation in a way that is fair to Lee and safe for his business (BBB). While it is all exciting to watch, I think I like the forum better when it is a bit cooler.
My recommendation would be to take the negotiations off line. I have a feeling that BBB will be able to more readily right the financial matter if they don't have to do it in front of the world and, therefore, set a precedent for how they compensate for these kinds of disagreements. The goal for BBB will be for Lee to tell us "BBB did the honorable thing and we came to a fair solution that stays between us," and then Lee just keeps it between himself and BBB. I have an idea what Lee should ask for and I am going to PM him with that idea.
I am now sure I will be tagged as "a cockeyed optimist."
Richard L.
-
hi guys, some pics,cheers
-
Something we who are not in the UK have to keep in mind regarding replies, is the time zone difference; if it's after 16:00 GMT/UTC (Eastern US time=about lunchtime), forget about a reply until manyana + a sixpack or two *smile* =next day+
I've a fifteen second attention span, so if if I don't have results, I'm one of the worst *eek*
-
A view of the separate headlight from the 1962 Lucas Equipment and spare parts for BSA Motorcycles.
-
Referring to my post, above, from 10.05. 2017 00:37:
OK, so maybe none of that will work. :(
Richard L.
-
Time to be the devils advocate.
I have bought brand spanking new , still in original BSA wrappings , parts that did not fit on more than one occasion.
Been playing with BSA's for 50 years now and there is a big difference between what is considered as proper fitting in 2017 and proper fitting in 1962.
Add to that BSA used the same forgings and casting for a lot of different bikes so just because your part has the "right" blank number on it is no guarantee that it was machined to fit your bike.
Forks were regularly swapped between bikes, both by BSA in order to meet a shipping deadline and by end users because the wrong ones were cheaper.
So unless that bike has been in your possession since new there is no guarantee that any single part on it now is what was on it when it left the factory and even then it could have been the wrong part.
I have run into the "funny fitting shroud " problem on more than on occasion and the solution was to cup your hand and gently bend the ear in and if necessary then twist the mouning hole out.
We even had a tool for doing this , a piece of dowel with a chair leg stud on each end a couple of large hard plastic washers and an oversized pair of wing nuts.
Once the dowel was in place you stood in front of the bike and "applied corrective force " to get everything lined up and true to the frame.
I am yet to see an original set of shrouds that have not rubbed through on one side because they did not sit strait on the fork legs from new and the same goes for the chromed fork seal holders which is why I use stainless ones as the scratches can just be polished out.
Then you have things like damage in the post.
I got Barry Bligh to make me up a set of headder pipes for my OIF A 65, with a custom bend so you could get to the primary adjuster without removing the pipe and the mufflers sat at the same height off the ground at the end, Which IS SOMETHING THAT BSA's RARELY EVER DID, BRAND NEW ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.
He made them up on my bike while I was down there and then bent a second set for my other bike and a third for refference .
When others saw my bike they wanted a set as well and he did several more .
Of these only 1 actually fitted properly.
Why ?
Well the truck carries 24 tons of mail and heavy packages go on the bottom.
So unless you paid for them to be sent in a steel or wooden box, don't expect that the condition you got them in was the condition that they were posted in and if the two ears had different angles off the fork axis this would suggest damage in transit as one would imagine they were made in the same jig & were the same angle when they left the factory.
Now I am not discounting that they might not have been the best reproduction in the first place, but clowns like me just make them fit & if the batch was only 48 pair then good chance 20 of them are yet to be fitted and the rest went to old timers who don't expect any thing to ever align properly and were just happy that they could get something to fill the gap without haveing it made bespoke for around a grand a pair which was the case not so long ago. So no one complained.
No retailer checks parts for fit before they are despatched and even fewer check them for fit if they have them made .
And if you stop to think about it BBB would either need a $ 3,000,000 computer operated profile checker + all of the original dimensional drawings programmed into it and that would add another ? 20 to each part , if not more. Or 150,000 go -no go gauges to check all stock plus a warehouse double the size to keep them all in, 10 or so more staff to check each & every item into stock which would double the purchase price to you.
I have bought the absolute wrong part from many suppliers simply because it was put in the wrong bin.
IF you really must have exactly right parts then I am fairly sure Mike Riley still has some NOS shrouds in his shed but they come at original BSA NOS carefully checked parts prices, around $ 500 Aus + freight
-
All of the above is partly why I chose to not do a 'resto', but just to build a bike I can ride and enjoy for what it is, however it is and Holy farque do I do enjoy it each day or what *smile* *smile* *smile* *smile*
-
Perhaps, if fettling new parts to fit is considered the norm, then the description given by the seller should include a warning to that effect?
Then we would all know where we stand and adjust our expectations accordingly.
Though I dont suppose many sellers would wish to describe a part as "may not fit"
-
Problem is a lot of genuine BSA parts never fitted properly from new.
It was the 50's & 60's
If both bolts were able to be done up without bending anything then that was considered a "good Fit ".
The last 2 people who I knew that bought A 10's brand new off the show room floor are now no longer in a condition to tell stories.
However from what they have told me over the years the actual quality , fit & colours were way below what would be considered acceptable now days.
Kens favourite story was in the first batch of 20 A 10 plungers sold in 1950 only 2 were the same colour from front to back.
None of the pipes were level at the rear. The chain rubbed on the chainguard The headlampse were at all sorts of funny angles , No 2 tanks were exactly the same , no two tanks sat the same on the frame.Not a single bike had symetrical foot pegs and every bike sat a different angle on the side stand.
He spent hours pulling the bike apart and sorting out all of these "fit" problems.
If parts were made exactly to BSA workshop drawings and sent without any transit damage 1/2 of them would not bolt strait up.
Remember BSa won a maudes trophy by building a complete bike from spare parts that actually went together.
This was an amazing feat in the day.
-
Soon after I put my bike back on the road a chap said that the only thing wrong with it was it looked better than new! *smile*
-
Geez Trev- that's gunna cause some upsets in the purist sector *pull hair out*.....how many are gonna go undo the good work *work* and make everything out of shape and mismatched so it's "as it left the Factory" *smile*
-
welllllllllllll as some one who in a past life saw bsa products as the arrived from the factory I feel I'm in a position to comment on this. In 2 BSA/TRi dealerships in liverpool from '66 to 70 I sold these bikes and whilst I personally didn't like the A65 range most and I stress most of there bikes arrived in a saleable condition and looked fine .Thats not say there were some howlers as well but quite few . Thats also not saying the bikes lead a long and troublefree life once they left us ,cos they didn't quite afew were disasters ,particularly Spitfires !!!! *problem*. I remember taking a Thunderbolt outfit brand new in 1970 to wales and had to say what alovely bike ,whilst others were a bag of nuts and bolts .
-
Here is what I have to do to make these fit.
First I have to strip off the brand new powder coat.
Then I have to very carefully weld these sheet metal tabs trying not to burn through at the edges. Then try to grind the weld down without making the tabs paper thin.
Anyone who has tried to drill a round hole in thin metal knows, it's not easy.
When I'm done welding I will hand file and reshape the tabs so they look correct.
Then I will finish stripping them, fill any imperfections with lead and smooth them out.
Then I can pay to have brand new parts refinished. *sad2*
The new hole is correctly sized for the bolts
Lee
-
I always put the damn pictures in backwards. *sad2*
The hole is off center to compensate for the
Gap caused by installing taper bearings in the head stock.
-
If anyone is wondering what ever became of negotiations between myself and BBB, there was a complete breakdown.
He offered me a little more than my shipping cost as a refund. I made a more reasonable counter offer and now i have heard nothing for 3 business days.
I am certain there would be an excuse for this time lapse, maybe he died and was brought back to life by Wassel, or maybe his internet shop burned down,.....i don't know.
Now I am sorry if this topic makes anyone's bowels loose, or offends anyone's sense of peace. But I really feel people should know what they are in for if they get dodgy parts from BBB.
Lee
-
If anyone is wondering what ever became of negotiations between myself and BBB, there was a complete breakdown.
He offered me a little more than my shipping cost as a refund. I made a more reasonable counter offer and now i have heard nothing for 3 business days.
I am certain there would be an excuse for this time lapse, maybe he died and was brought back to life by Wassel, or maybe his internet shop burned down,.....i don't know.
Now I am sorry if this topic makes anyone's bowels loose, or offends anyone's sense of peace. But I really feel people should know what they are in for if they get dodgy parts from BBB.
Lee
You would have been better off funding a beaten up set of used OEM shrouds....at least they would not have cost as much to buy! I've got some, but unfortunately they are for the cow pat model and don't have "ears".
-
Hi Lee, doesn't churn my bowels ,grateful for the heads up so that I can make an informed decision when I need spares as to where I'm likely to spend my money and where I'm not ,cheers Bob
-
G'day Lee.
I'm not sure which way to swing with this. I've had quite a few dodgy parts from quite a few suppliers over the years. Being half a world away I just take a spoon of cement and harden up. Must be an Aussie thing.
Fair enough BBB sent you a dodgy part but you sent a complaint on a Friday and by Monday, before BBB could respond, had modified the part eliminating any recourse by BBB and then start calling them names. Any reimbursement for a part they can't have back is better than nothing.
Patience is a virtue.
Posting instead of a PM so I might lose a few "likes" but s4it happens.
Cheers
-
Thanks for the support guys.
Musky, I will go to my grave believing BBB had no intentions what so ever of doing anything about this, besides adding spacers that are not supposed to be there. He said so himself right in this thread.
Maybe if the British motorcycle restoration enthusiasts let each other know what type of parts and service they received from suppliers, we would have better parts and suppliers.
I really believe that when we just take it on the chin, and suffer in silence we are doing the next poor bastard a disservice. He too will waste his time and money, and the only one happy is the guy cashing checks
It's not about money. It's about being ripped off and ignored because I'm 2000 miles away.
I will make the forum a deal. I will give 100 percent of the refund to the forum for running costs. We sent him an E-mail 4 business days ago, without response. Maybe if we are patient enough good things will happen.
Lee
-
G'day Lee.
Fair enough mate. I certainly don't suffer in silence and let the supplier know of my displeasure in no uncertain terms.
Bad reports are welcome here for the reasons you mention. I hope BBB learn from this experience.
The combined knowledge of the forum would outweigh any from one supplier. We just hope they listen.
Cheers
-
G'day Lee.
Fair enough mate. I certainly don't suffer in silence and let the supplier know of my displeasure in no uncertain terms.
Bad reports are welcome here for the reasons you mention. I hope BBB learn from this experience.
The combined knowledge of the forum would outweigh any from one supplier. We just hope they listen.
Cheers
Well said, I reckon Draganfly stiffed me just because they were thinking he's just one customer and no one else would ever find out, well this forum DOES help others find out *good3*
I guess ultimately we want good suppliers to prosper, and the not so good to up their act, or disappear and let the good suppliers get their business.
-
Let's not damn BBB completely. I'm sure many of their customers are happy with their parts.
While rebuilding my machine I had a horrible experience with Lightning Spares. The owner was not interested in my problem. I told the owner that I would write up my experience on forums. He threatened me with legal action! I was happy to see that LS had stopped trading.
-
Hi All,
Just to add a little balance to the topic
I had excellent service from Lightning spares, their SS parts were top quality, sadly now stockpiled at drags
As I mentioned on another thread BBB provided a chromed chainguard for my SR that has survived well (15 yrs)
( I know a lot has happened in that time *eek*)
I have been the victim of pattern crap parts from various sources as well , plus a supplier denying they had recieved returned items
(make sure you send recorded delivery *ex*)
John
-
I had excellent service from Lightning spares, their SS parts were top quality
Not in my case unfortunately! *evil*
-
Well yes, shit does happen and it always stinks. But overall I reckon most of the people out there do their best, despite the odd balls-up. Most of them and their staff own bikes and ride bikes and know what it's like when things don't fit/ don't work / die young.
I haven't needed a lot of BSA bits despite a lot of miles because the darn things are so extremely reliable (and I'm not that fussy for my everyday bikes). But Draganfly, BBB, C&D, SRM and others have always sorted me out quickly and reasonably, usually for oily bits, as have Andover Norton and Norvil for Notrun bits, Hitchcocks for Oilfields and various excellent marque specialists for AJS/Matchless parts.
I don't think most of them are in the business to get rich quick, or at all (there are easier ways!) and I think most of them take us seriously when we're unhappy. You kind of build up a relationship with the ones you use a lot, over the years. Parts prices aren't so bad frankly, when I think what it costs to replace bits of my one and only modern-ish machine, a 17 yr-old XJR (or modern cars for that matter). And when friends tell me what typical service & parts charges are for, eg, recent Triumphs and Ducatis, I go pale and require wine intravenously.
Maybe some of our parts are, dare I say it, built down to too low a price, which causes part of the problem? We're naturally a bit 'careful', suppliers try to satisfy a world fixated on 1950s parts lists and prices . . . and the result is what it is. Occasional crap fit, lousy finish, short life. Thank the stars for enthusiast suppliers like Beezermacc and Manor Mike, who do it for reasons that aren't necessarily economically driven, or they'd be off living the high life somewhere else.
It's very sad this one has gone tits up, but from where I sit - also not always handy for things - I'd say again that classic parts suppliers do a good job most of the time. Variations between model years, and the difficulty of even identifying what one has got sometimes, don't help. However much I think something is 'correct' there is always someone who knows more and better who says 'er, not quite', or I find out when the bits arrive and aren't quite what I had in mind. Part numbers and parts lists drive me insane - for all marques. Like a lot of folk, I just press on with what I've got mostly, if I can, but try to go to people who don't quote strings of numbers at me, because they know the machines, the variations, the confusing areas, and they recognise descriptions.
It's a bit of a shame this one has gone so public, as it makes it harder to Get to Yes I'm thinking. It looked promising for a while, . . .
-
Little update and a fun picture.
I'm 95 percent satisfied with them now. I had them fitting well with the huge slots, but the place where the bolt holes should be was just floating in air if that makes sense.
As I welded them shut I had no reference for where the holes should be. I came very close lucky enough.
Now there are no huge washers needed to cover the slots. But the best part is I don't need an inch and a half worth of stupid spacers.
I wanted to make sure the stanchions centered up in the shrouds, and they do well now. I only had two stanchions for mock up, a non bent original, and the chopper one that came with the bike.
10 inches over long, I'm really lucky they never finished . They would have been staring at the moon with their butt resting on the sissy bar. Or worse, they would have chopped the neck! *eek*
-
I just thought I would check on the forum for any updates on this. I can confirm that our offer of a partial refund of the parts (without receiving anything back) was rejected by Coater87, he requested a 90% refund on the headlamp brackets. We said that this would not happen and that our original offer is our best offer and we have not heard from him since. Again, he has not given us any choice in this and seems determined to cause us menace without giving us any chance to make things right. There is nothing else we can do in this situation I'm afraid.
We will continue to supply our thousands of customers around the world with parts for BSAs and others and receive positive feedback on the overwhelming majority of transactions.
-
G'day BBB.
Thankyou again for your response in this saga.
I think the moral to the story is that customers must check thoroughly the parts they bought and if something is wrong, (before modifying) notify the supplier immediately and give them enough time to investigate.
In the world of pattern parts, sometimes the manufacturer gets it wrong. The retailer is not aware (and can't check every part) and sells it on. The customer finds the part won't fit so the complaint goes back down the line. This takes time.
Last year I bought a kickstart pinion from a local supplier. The ID was way too big to fit the standard bush. I notified the supplier that then sent a bush that did fit, but by then I had made one. The problem will arise when an owner down the track needs to replace that part and finds the new "correct" part won't fit. *pull hair out*
I hope both sides have learnt something out of this. Lee: possibly patience. BBB: A7 & A10's don't have a spacer for the headlight.
Cheers
-
BBB: A7 & A10's don't have a spacer for the headlight.
Just my 2 cents worth, to send back your duff parts from overseas you need to have confidence the supplier will treat your problem fairly, otherwise as Lee said you end up paying another 2 lots of freight for no benefit. Given BBB initial response ref spacers etc I would not have sent the shrouds back either!
The best response from a supplier is to accept photographic "evidence" and send replacements free of charge (without insisting on a return) surely this should have happened in this case.
Often a supplier will find the rest of the stock if that item is duff as well, so that helps make the decision to replace duff parts without seeing them. However as most of us know however, some suppliers will not bin batches of parts they know are duff, and keep supplying the duff batch knowing MOST customers will not complain, well most overseas customers anyway. Examples of that come mind are duff clutch centres, silent blocs, alloy push rods.
When suppliers won't refund freight even when the part is duff, or charge freight on replacement parts, there is usually no point in sending parts back *problem* but at least you have this forum to let others know about a suppliers mis-deeds *yeah*
-
Musky,
If the forum feels thats enough refund, it should jump on his donation of 40 pounds.
I guess thats the most Burton Bike Bits is willing to help distant customers when they sell them truly shit parts and offer zero customer service.
You could drop a link to the Pay Pal account here to make it easy for him.
Lee
-
G'day Lee.
I can't and don't speak for the Forum, I'm only a moderator that smacks naughty boys LOL. I only voice my opinion, and that's only an opinion.
If you would like to accept Burton Bike Bits offer and ask them to direct it here http://www.a7a10.net/paypal.htm it would be greatly appreciated. I'm not privy to the costs but any donation helps keep this GREAT Forum going.
Cheers
-
As a comment, many years ago, http://www.basmotor.se/eng/ sent me a wrong silencer.
When made aware, they immediately acknowledged and sent the right one, free of charge and no postage. And no need to return the wrong part, to save me postage and trouble.
Needless to say, a happy and returning customer.
-
As a comment, many years ago, http://www.basmotor.se/eng/ sent me a wrong silencer.
When made aware, they immediately acknowledged and sent the right one, free of charge and no postage. And no need to return the wrong part, to save me postage and trouble.
Needless to say, a happy and returning customer.
Exactly, in this case BBB have shown no commercial sense at all. It would have been much easier for BBB to have kept Lee as a repeat customer than find a new customer to replace him.
It's not hard is it? If you supply duff parts then you as the guilty party have to refund the ALL the customers costs, that is the obvious starting point! And the customer offers a compromise (as in this case) please accept the offer graciously. It's a let off.
When BBB reps are manning a stand at an exhibition or spending money on advertising maybe they should think back to how many customers they chose to lose by not providing a full refund for providing duff parts, and maybe if they had acted differently, they would not have to out there spending their time and money on finding new customers........
Of course BBB may have a "business model" where they need to continuously find new customers because they KNOW they will p_ss off all customers eventually by knowingly supplying duff parts and acting unfairly when a customer complains. Fair enough maybe from a business perspective, but you can't expect that sort approach to business to go unnoticed by this forum.
On the basis of what we've seen here, avoid BBB I reckon.
-
I have used a pair of ears from Burton bike bits, the way that the ears are manufactured would end up with end of ears digging into headlight shell if spacers were not used I did however find two spacers in my box of bits that came with the bike,
When headlight installed with spacers the spacers can hardly be seen.
-
Unfortunately, it is far too common to purchase a part and for it to be either bad quality or doesn't fit at all.
Most of the parts purchased are not fitted to any bike for a number of years, they purchase it on faith, believing it will fit, when the time comes to finally fit, they're only left to discover they don't and it's too late to report anything to the seller. That's why they believe so many are good and refuse to believe they don't fit.
I was going to purchase these shrouds also, only didn't because I have had bad experiences with Wassell and a few other brands out there (MCA is another). Also, thanks to Lee for posting his experiences, letting the BSA community know and sorry you had to go through this.
But reading this thread, BBB was simply avoiding the situation and the way they handled it I know now not to purchase anything from them.
I have been on the hunt for a good condition pair of shrouds for approx 4 years, the last pair I found was on eBay UK, maybe 2 years ago and was out bid last moment. I was lucky to have found a good condition original pair, waited 9 days for it to end, it finished on Saturday and I was the lucky one. The price they went for was high, sure it's worth it and comes to show people are willing to pay.
Only problem is, they're in UK, the seller was not willing to ship to US, had to ship to a trusted family members address in UK and for them to forward it to me in US.
I know I won't be fitting them for a number of years and I know I have a pair that is more than likely going to fit when the time comes to perform final assembly.
Lightning Spares, they were ok, but the last year of trading with them, they were rude and the parts you can tell they cut back on quality.
Barleycorn, my last purchase I requested polished, only to be sent unpolished items, sent an email to inform them and they didn't respond. They could have at least reimbursed my account for the polishing fee for the next purchase.
Don't even want to get started with my problems with draganfly.
CPC Engineering on the other hand, they go out of their way to produce the parts I need, they're of outstanding quality and will continue to use them.
-
Hi,
Link to CPC BSA page
http://www.cpcengineering.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=59&page=1
Hmmm, looks good, some bits in there I could use *smile*
John
-
I wrote up CPC on the services page a while ago. Great fellas.
-
As I have received no further information from Burton Bike Bits,
I sent an E-Mail asking if he could visit this site, and make the 40 pound donation to operating costs.
Lee
-
G'day Lee.
I have received a PM from Danny today. I can't publish a PM but he is (but reluctantly due to the bad press received by a few of our members [good by others]) willing to do so. He also states that return postage would have been covered if you had not modified the part, as they do with any returns.
I do feel for you in receiving a dud part (we all have at some time) BUT you could have given BBB a reasonable amount of time to respond BEFORE you complained on the Forum and modified the part! I don't work 24/7, do you? Neither do they.
I will now graciously accept their donation and put the matter to bed.
Cheers