The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Tone on 06.06. 2009 17:19

Title: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: Tone on 06.06. 2009 17:19
Ronnirerockets, On your fantastic anti wet sumping device,where did you get the gas tap from and what size is it please. did you use the original elbow and fitting(nut) on the oil tank and did you fit it on the flow or return side? I hope you don't mind me pinching this brilliant idea, regards Tony.
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: LJ. on 06.06. 2009 17:38
Tone... There is a very good selection of gas taps etc in B&Q! There must be a large store in Brighton somewhere, they even have a good selection of reducers etc. BUT if its for making up a wet sumping device... I dont wanna know!  *roll*
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: Tone on 06.06. 2009 17:59
Thanks LJ, What have you got against the anti wet device that ronnierockets devised? I would have thought with the kill switch on it, it will be fooloroof. Cheers Tony.
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: LJ. on 06.06. 2009 18:29
Quote
What have you got against the anti wet device that ronnierockets devised?

Well... my opinion is that we have these old bikes for our enjoyment which should mean that we are keen to regularly start them up and ride them, if not then why hang on to them?  *dunno2*

If wet sumping is bad and occurs in a very few days then there must be problems in the engine that need sorting. The fitting of a wet sump device is not a good subsitute they should never be needed. Of course a wet sumping of some degree does occur and I believe this is good as it means a very good lublication of parts down there below, the first initial starting is supposed to be the most wearing/stressful on an engine until circulation gets going, so I'm told. Of course starting a very heavily sumped bike does mean a risk of blowing gaskets and may cause other problems. (remember I'm not an engineer and other more experienced guys will advise you better)

Why not purchase one of those very good SRM sump plates with a magnetic drain screw that we have seen discussed here only recently? So easy to drain and return to tank with absolutely NO risks involved! I've read of too many 'bangs' due to oil starvation!  *eek* Ronnie's device does seem good but I'd rather save myself of all that effort and go for a simplier alternative.

On the odd occasion a bike, usually my red A10, has wet sumped heavily, even with straight 50 in, the bike has been fairly easy to start, probably because its worn. But my other A10, the blue one does not wet sump at all, this one having castrol R40 in. The Star Twin I am still running in and has Halfords classic 20/50 in and is fairly thin so will sump easily, it has been off the road for the last ten weeks due to the petrol tank at the chromers. But it started easily.
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: Tone on 06.06. 2009 18:40
Thanks LJ, I have one of those sump covers, After talking to you I am going to have a rethink. Perhaps it might be worth having a look at the oil pump, cheers Tony.
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: A10Boy on 06.06. 2009 20:56
I was wondering since the subject has come up again, do we as a group have experience or confidence in those in line anti sumping jobbies ?
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: rocket man on 06.06. 2009 20:57
hi dont put an anti wet sumping device on your bike if it fails your engine will
be badly dameged go for the sump plate kit with drain bolt on
a much safer device even srm say dont use them just drain the oil
out ove the sump put back in tank you could even cheak it each time you
drain it for particales there is a sump kit srm do with a drain plug on wich also
has a magnet on which will cach the particales on it it a much safer option

dave
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: groily on 06.06. 2009 21:31
Reckon Brian got it right when he implied, under 'Anti-wet-sumping - other fixes' that there's maybe no such thing as a fool-proof tap with fool-proof ignition earth. All it needs is the carbon brush to stick in the mag end-cap, the wire to break off . . . etc.

But, that said, I've been running taps in the feedlines of machines of another more incontinent marque for a while. AMC twins are quite notorious. I do use taps - B&Q taps one size bigger than are suitable for fuel lines - with ignition cut-outs attached. There's a 'pre-flight routine' which mustn't vary; there's a label on the ignition lever that says 'OIL?'; there's a kill button on the handlebar which is also supposed to remind me - if it doesn't stop the engine when it's running, then the switch at the oil tap won't stop it starting either - as they both run  off the same brush and spring.
So far so good.
Some wag elsewhere suggested - not a joke - that there should also be a mechanical thing on the kickstart somewhere/somehow which pulls the tap open as a last resort. Not a bad idea, but a bit difficult to contrive. How long and rigid IS a piece of string?

The consequences of cock-up are unmentionably horrific, which is why, above all, the pre-flight routine is important.

I haven't bothered with the A as it doesn't offend too badly too often. I was thinking about it . . . but I'm not going there.
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: rocket man on 06.06. 2009 22:35
yes you can put loads ove warnings on your bike to remind
you but if something goes wrong your engine might end up
as a project and a big bill to fix
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: bsa-bill on 07.06. 2009 08:17
Not getting into any arguments here, this is down to personal choice and what you feel happy with but (theres always a but) I would still like anyone who has had an engine damaged due to a definte and confirmed anti wet sumping valve to say so.
BriTie must have supplied lots of these things and are still in business (I think) it would not take many failures of these devices to ruin a trader given the small margins they probably work to.

There you go another day started with me at odds with the world - ah whats new. *doh*

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: Richard on 07.06. 2009 08:47
Bill
I will let you know if the anti wetsump valve on my Super Rocket fails. It has been on a couple of years now and covered a few thousand miles and all is ok, I know of others who have had them fitted for years with no problems.
Yes Britie (polly) is still in business even though he gets more grumpy as the years go by ONLY JOKING Polly
Richard
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: LJ. on 07.06. 2009 12:08
Here is my Wet Sump valve, needless to say I removed it soon after bringing the bike into my ownership. This was on my Blue A10 the bike in my fleet that least wet sumps!

Now these devices go for around £30 quid on Ebay and they seem to go like hot cakes because of the inconvienience of wet sumping. The instructions are clear about fitting the device the correct way round and also mention of catastrophic engine damage if fitted incorrectly. Looking at the device it would be easy to fit wrongly, I measured it up and the differencies between the end pipe lengths were only a millimeter or two. To the unaided eye there looks to be no difference in length at all. How many of us rush to open the packaging of a new goodie and fit it without carefully following instructions? (My feeble hand is raised!)

Anyway this valve needs a good home, It's available to anyone who wants it for a reasonable offer! On the basis that its not fitted to an A10! of course  ;)

SOLD!
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: rocket man on 07.06. 2009 15:09
correct me if im wrong but to operate a valve do you need suction and arnt bsa oil pumps
gravity fead  it only takes some particals ove metel in the oil to stop the valve working then
its game set and match end ove the road
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: LJ. on 07.06. 2009 16:05
correct me if im wrong but to operate a valve do you need suction and arnt bsa oil pumps
gravity fead  it only takes some particals ove metel in the oil to stop the valve working then
its game set and match end ove the road

Who knows? and hence the dangers of anti wet sumping valves...  *dunno2*
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: Richard on 07.06. 2009 19:11
LJ
the A10 swing arm valve screws into the crankcase the type you have would be suitable for a plunger A10 so bring it to the Wicksteed weekend and I will have it
Richard
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: ronnierockets on 07.06. 2009 19:59
Hi Tone,
Regarding your question about my wet sumping device,
the gas tap was "rescued" from my son -in -laws toolbox (a freebie)  he's in the heating/plumbing business,but I imagine they can be purchased in most plumbing stores,
The tap is fitted to the flow side, and yes i have used the origional elbow and fitting nut ,on the oil tank.
I also use the device to stop the engine after a spin,when i'm putting the bike in the shed.(checking that the device is still working)
hope this answers your questions.
best regards ...Ronnierockets...
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: LJ. on 07.06. 2009 20:10
LJ
the A10 swing arm valve screws into the crankcase the type you have would be suitable for a plunger A10 so bring it to the Wicksteed weekend and I will have it
Richard

Okay Richard! I've marked my earlier post with the SOLD! word and will bring it to Wicksteed Park for you. (Brave Man!)  *clap*
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: rocket man on 07.06. 2009 20:24
dont do it *problem*
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 08.06. 2009 01:00
correct me if im wrong but to operate a valve do you need suction and arnt bsa oil pumps
gravity fead  it only takes some particals ove metel in the oil to stop the valve working then
its game set and match end ove the road

Yes, the oil pump requires oil to make a seal between the gears  and the end plates.
So if there is absolutely no oil in the delivery side then it can not pump.
This is why you stick your pressurized oil can in the delivery line and prime it when you replace the engine or the oil lines.

If you fit the after market valve then the pump has to provide sufficient "suction" to open 2 valves.
I am sure the instruction tell you to remove the original BSA one but if you were going to pull the pump then you would fix the original one in the first place.

The aftermarket one is in fact a better unit that the original but has the same limitations, If the oil is dirty then crud will get stuck under it and it will not seal.

Now add to that the fact that most of us have a wet sumping problem only because we do do not ride the bikes any where near as often as BSA designed them for and we have now added another impediment to oil flowing through the engine.
Most advertisments do have some modicum of truth behind them and the ones that tell us that 90 % of engine wear happens during start up before the oil pressure has built up a continious film is in fact correct. And this goes quadrouple for limited use "toy" bikes.

Wet sumping is a sign that something is not as good as it could be and there are only a few reasons for it.
1) crud under factory fitted valve CHANGE THE BLOODY OIL MORE FREQUENTLY
2) errosion under the ball seat - give it a sharp "tap"
3) old weak worn out spring - replace it
4) badly worn pump - replace/ repair it see also No 1 which is why the pump is worn out.
5) pump is loose - don't worry about the wet sumping your bike is on a one way trip to the scrap yard
6) cases cracked - see above
7) all or any combination of above - typical for abused BSA - polish it an stick it on evilbay.
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: 69Bonni on 08.06. 2009 09:05
Hi All

I like Trevors answer...

Personally i like keeping my crankcases as continious pieces of alloy! Ali welding not being my strong point. Like has been said before if we rode them like they should (assuming the mechanics are ok) they wouldnt wet sump to a greater extent. I think rather be safe that sorry, springs to mind rather than trusting yet another mechanical device!

I have often pondered and dare i say it .... If some of these well know ......... "Oil Additives" (there ive said it) Make a difference?

Rightly or wrongly i have been a beleiver in Molyslip i think only because my Father and Father in Law were both motor engineers (when engineers were engineers) and they told me you could always notice a difference on engines that did and didnt use things like this also applied to Redex. They also told me all this cobblers about hardend valve seats was rubbish, "if a valve seat wasnt hardened enough in 40Years of running"
Maybe they have a good point.

If Molyslip adhears to the bearing surfaces and does not drain off as the oil does would that not give additional protection to the bearing surfaces during start up? I guess this was what Castrol were promoting in the "Magnatec" oil? Good idea if it works ...

Anyhow id rather beleive in that than a Anti Sumping valve!

Steve
Title: Re: Ronnierockets anti wet sumping device
Post by: bsa-bill on 08.06. 2009 10:06

If you fit the after market valve then the pump has to provide sufficient "suction" to open 2 valves.
Just one I think is'nt the other on the pressure side?

correct me if im wrong but to operate a valve do you need suction and arnt bsa oil pumps
gravity fead 
Any pump that creates pressure is capable of providing suction, if not then how does the pump get the oil out of the sump?

The aftermarket one is in fact a better unit that the original but has the same limitations, If the oil is dirty then crud will get stuck under it and it will not seal.
This surely also applies to the non return valve in the return tube in the sump and the non return valve in the crankcase behind the pump

I'm still waiting for someone to say the've had an engine ruined due to Poly's valve
but each to his own - I should be out riding but niether bike is complete at the moment - but getting there slowly

All the best - Bill