The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical (topic titles must be descriptive) => Frame => Topic started by: coater87 on 30.06. 2017 02:46

Title: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: coater87 on 30.06. 2017 02:46
 I ordered a set of brake shoes for rear F.W.H., funny thing is the emgo  box says triumph...and they don't fit.

 The pad for the cam is too wide, otherwise they would work. I noticed they have steel pads covering the cam face.

 So I have two choices, I can thin down the triumph set and make them work.

 Or I can reline the originals. But I must cap the cam faces because they are so worn. Has anyone done this, and if so did you need anything special as far as the steel went or can you get away with common sheet metal?

Lee
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: dave55 on 30.06. 2017 09:26
What about the 3rd choice of sending them back for the box that says BSA on them with the correct ones in the box ?
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: JulianS on 30.06. 2017 10:50
I dont like the sound of those shoes.

Are the steel pads fixed to shoe or do they just lift out?

Is one end of the shoe machined in semi circle to fit on the pivot?

If you have the semi circle and the fixed pad at opposite end then you appear to have shoes for the half width rod brake hub. They dont fit the full width hub without some work.

The Triumph and BSA shoes for the full width iron hubs (both 7 and 8 inch 1 1/8 wide ones) do interchange it is not unusual to find Triumph shoes in a BSA hub.

The floating shoes also interchange - they are machined flat at the pivot end and have a steel pad which just lifts off. The BSA ones have a slightly wider pad than the Triumph in this case due to the machining.

First photo shoes a 1958/59 rear brake plate fitted with BSA floating shoes.

Second photo shows what the cam and pivot end of the shoe should look like on non floating shoe - these are 8 inch (could not find a 7 inch non floating sorry) but ends are the same.

With the floating shoe you can put a shim between pad and shoe to take up wear.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: JulianS on 30.06. 2017 15:27
Found a 7 inch non floating shoe for full width iron hub.

 Marked part 42 5876.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: Angus on 30.06. 2017 15:47
Sorry for being think but could someone explain the difference between floating and non floating shoes (with pics see previous apology). I googled it but got lots of stuff about disk brakes and I do know ours are not those. I must do something about the brakes on both my A7 and the choices seam endless.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: coater87 on 30.06. 2017 16:19
 Here are the shoes in question.

 If I can steel cap the original shoes cam face, just relining it would make it servicable

 By removing a little from both sides of the Emgo shoe, I believe it would be serviceable also.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: coater87 on 30.06. 2017 16:22
Looking at my picture I see there may be a difference in length I did not notice until now. I am going to have to do some more comparison.

 Lee
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: JulianS on 30.06. 2017 16:41
Sorry for being think but could someone explain the difference between floating and non floating shoes (with pics see previous apology). I googled it but got lots of stuff about disk brakes and I do know ours are not those. I must do something about the brakes on both my A7 and the choices seam endless.


In the first photo the pivot ends of the shoes are flat allowing them to float/slide when brake applied and, it is claimed, increasing the braking effectiveness.

The shoes are a leading and a trailing and must be assembled the right way around or you will lose brake power - I know I did so once.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: chaterlea25 on 30.06. 2017 20:45
Hi Lee,
I have been disappointed  with any of the pattern shoes that I have tried  *sad2*
I try and find old stock linings or get bespoke oversize linings fitted and machine to fit the hub
There's a USA company "Vintage brakes"  I have heard they do good work
I have made shoe pads from sheet steel and never had issues with them
When I was a a poor (er) teen I used to pack out worn shoes to get some more life from them  ;)

John
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: bikerboy on 04.07. 2017 21:50
According to suppliers on the floating shoes the steel covered end is for the pivot end not the cam end
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: coater87 on 04.07. 2017 23:54
 Here is what I have done to a set of old shoes. They fit without modifying, and for whatever reason it seems to be hard to find good brake shoes.

 The cam faces were worn badly, which I suppose they all do. I used some 16 gauge sheet metal and formed these little caps, they are a tight fit.

 If this works out ok, I'm going to reline these.

 Can anyone think of a reason this won't work?
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: duTch on 05.07. 2017 00:08

 I did fairly much the same on my Guttzi's rear TLS a few years ago and it worked ok until i had them relined
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: coater87 on 05.07. 2017 23:32

 I did fairly much the same on my Guttzi's rear TLS a few years ago and it worked ok until i had them relined

 Right Dutch,

 I may be to large of a diameter after I reline them, its hard to know because I dont have a new set of linings on hand.

 If they do drag, I suppose I can either sand them in or change the gauge to maybe 18 gauge. I'm not sure I would want to go thinner than that.

But the cam surface of this set of shoes is definitely not the best.

 lee
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: duTch on 06.07. 2017 03:53

 
Quote
I did fairly much the same on my Guttzi's rear TLS a few years ago and it worked ok until i had them relined

 Just to clarify, after I had them re-lined I had no use for them (until the linings wear down again  *smile*)
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: chaterlea25 on 06.07. 2017 11:21
Hi Lee,
There was (If I remember?) another thread about rear brake shoes recently ???
I found on my A10 that even with "standard" thickness linings that the brake arm is not at the best angle to the cable??
I made steel shoes but only turned back about 1/4in. on either end, They can't go anywhere once fitted
I met a man who was selling relined original shoes at Stafford show last April, My brother wanted some shoes for his A10
The seller said that A10 rear shoes need thicker than "normal" linings  *????* and showed us the difference between the A10 and others.
Once fitted the new shoes are giving very good results on my Brothers A10

As well as adding the steel pads to the shoes on my A10 I modified the rear cable to give it as straight a run as possible, and get the arm to cable angles as near as possible to approaching 90 degrees when the brake is applied
This has improved the braking immensely and its possible to lock the rear wheel now *eek*

John
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: JulianS on 06.07. 2017 11:51
From the Ferodo book, the linings for the 7 inch full width hub with non floating shoes are listed as 3/16 inch thick. The Linings for the same hub but floating shoes is listed as 5/32 inch thick.

I agree completely with John on the cable - most ready made seem to be the wrong length usually too long giving a spongy feel and too much inner meaning all the cable adjustment gets taken up even with new shoes.

A good cable makes all the difference.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: Tomcat on 10.07. 2017 08:35
Hi Lee,
I have been disappointed  with any of the pattern shoes that I have tried  *sad2*
I try and find old stock linings or get bespoke oversize linings fitted and machine to fit the hub
There's a USA company "Vintage brakes"  I have heard they do good work
I have made shoe pads from sheet steel and never had issues with them
When I was a a poor (er) teen I used to pack out worn shoes to get some more life from them  ;)

John


IIRC someone said the bonded brake shoes we are being supplied nowadays have car friction material bonded to them.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: RoyC on 10.07. 2017 14:43
[quote author=JulianS
most ready made seem to be the wrong length usually too long giving a spongy feel and too much inner meaning all the cable adjustment gets taken up even with new shoes.
[/quote]
That's what made me go for a rod conversion Julian.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: JulianS on 10.07. 2017 14:51

[/quote]
That's what made me go for a rod conversion Julian.
[/quote]

Roy -That rod conversion looks interesting, could we have some photos?
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: RoyC on 16.07. 2017 19:00

That's what made me go for a rod conversion Julian.
[/quote]

Roy -That rod conversion looks interesting, could we have some photos?
[/quote]
The bike is not here at the moment but as soon as I get it back I will take some decent pics.
Here are a couple of clips from my library photoes.
I used a lever purchased off ebay (See pic) and got a length of stainless steel tubing, flattened it to an oval shape so that it slipped over the lever, then crushed it in the vice so that it was a very tight fit on the lever. I then shaped the top on the grinder and moulded round it with 'Quiksteel'.
Drilled a 5/16 hole through it to take a M8 allen bolt with the head cut off.
The stainless rod was off ebay, 2ft. long, I formed an eye on one end, drilled a 5/16 hole through the eye so that it slipped over the allen bolt and popped a starlock washer on the end.
I made the back brake lever from stainless steel flat bar and 1/2" rod.
Roy.

Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: coater87 on 16.07. 2017 19:57
 Very nice work Roy,

 Better pictures would be much appreciated.

 The conversion looks fantastic, and it probably should have left the factory like that.

 If my rear brake is half as bad as people say they are, I am going to attempt to copy what you have done.

 Lee
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: chaterlea25 on 16.07. 2017 22:36
Hi All,
On all the rod "conversions" I have seen there appears to be a weakness (flexing) where the short arm has to
go in around the frame  *????*

A cable properly setup works fine,
Pity the pattern cable makers make them INCORRECTLY  *problem*

Its easier to modify the cable than convert to rod  *work*

John
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: trevinoz on 17.07. 2017 22:30
The factory must have thought that the cable was a problem after 7 years as they went to rod operation fairly quickly on the A65 with the same brakes.
I am going to stick with the cables as I have enough to do without the extra work for a rod conversion.
Title: Re: Steel caps for brake shoes
Post by: RoyC on 18.07. 2017 09:26
Hi All,
On all the rod "conversions" I have seen there appears to be a weakness (flexing) where the short arm has to
go in around the frame.
John
Depends what is used for the short stem.
First I tried a length of allen key, that flexed.
Second a length of 5/16 stainless bolt, that flexed, then I used a length of M8 allen bolt and that has very little flexing.

Roy.