The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: anjimehra on 08.07. 2017 06:12

Title: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 08.07. 2017 06:12
Hi
Started up the engine. Running sweet but noisy valve gear. Oil flow adequate as oil reaching rockers, timing cover & hopefully the camshaft. Tappets set at .010. No end float on breather. Negligible back lash on gears. New cam bushes. Old rockers as replacements not available, but good fit on shafts. Any suggestions ?
Anji
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Sluggo on 08.07. 2017 09:15
I would have to consult the manual,, but 010 thou seems a bit loose in opinion.  Most Triumphs are 2 & 4 thou (2 on intake and 4 exhaust) but later manuals spec looser specs 4 & 6?  Nortons the same.

You say A7,, but that could mean a lot of things.  What year?  Early motors are pretty obscure but they were redesigned and many variables here.  Also,, history of the machine if known?  Are you certain its all stock and correct parts?  I never heard of a thick flange small fin A7 barrell until tonight when I just saw a picture of one on another topic.
I would imagine it might use different push rods.
So, are you certain all the parts are right? Coil bind? Rockers engaging valve tips correct?  Condition of guides? Bore clearances?  cam followers and cam in good condition?

I have been studying the early A7 variants and little personal experience on them but they appear difficult to adjust and service and obvious why there were redesigned.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: JulianS on 08.07. 2017 10:08
I think your engine is 1952 and starts AA7?  If yes then the valve clearances are as per the book and the exhaust is shown as 0.016 in some BSA service sheets.

Sometimes the spring washers locating the rockers and the rockers themselves wear at face of contact causing a clicking noise.


Dynamo chain not touching the timing covers?
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 08.07. 2017 10:18
I would have to consult the manual,, but 010 thou seems a bit loose in opinion.  Most Triumphs are 2 & 4 thou (2 on intake and 4 exhaust) but later manuals spec looser specs 4 & 6?  Nortons the same.

You say A7,, but that could mean a lot of things.  What year?  Early motors are pretty obscure but they were redesigned and many variables here.  Also,, history of the machine if known?  Are you certain its all stock and correct parts?  I never heard of a thick flange small fin A7 barrell until tonight when I just saw a picture of one on another topic.
I would imagine it might use different push rods.
So, are you certain all the parts are right? Coil bind? Rockers engaging valve tips correct?  Condition of guides? Bore clearances?  cam followers and cam in good condition?

I have been studying the early A7 variants and little personal experience on them but they appear difficult to adjust and service and obvious why there were redesigned.
Hi Sluggo
The bike is a 1952 plunger & was a Basket case ( actually gunny bags ) Engine parts were all genuine & the motor has been repowered ie sleeved, new rings, old Pistons which were fine, crank reg round new shells, new little ends, new guides, valves. New mains, & cam bushes. Idler gear bushes were OK.
.010 specified in the service sheets for plunger A7. Set on the correct stroke & cam position.
Followers not replaced but were not worn. Push rods not bent. Tapped contact on valve ok. Sound appears to emanate from the timing side
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 08.07. 2017 10:23
I think your engine is 1952 and starts AA7?  If yes then the valve clearances are as per the book and the exhaust is shown as 0.016 in some BSA service sheets.

Sometimes the spring washers locating the rockers and the rockers themselves wear at face of contact causing a clicking noise.


Dynamo chain not touching the timing covers?
Hi Julian
You're spot on, it's a 1952 plunger. Spring washers on rocker shaft correctly installed as per your illustration with no wear on the Al rocker box. Have oil stoned the tappet faces & the valves are new. Noise appears to be pronounced at the timing cover, but can't see what it could be
Dynamo chain not yet installed
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Sluggo on 08.07. 2017 18:42
It sounds like your engine rebuild was very thorough and you have the bases covered, So I am at a loss to suggest further.  There has been great progress on affordable Small micro cameras and on many forums many bike owners are using them to probe inside gearboxes and engines but It does not seem likely on your bike you could use a device like that.  I am sorry I cannot be more helpful.
Perhaps I can inspect in person with any luck in November? I looked up your area and with any luck I will be visiting India then. Its a long delayed trip but I am overdue to visit.  I have a friend there who manufactures some parts and will be on the lookout for interesting bike stuff as well.
I have a 53-53 Plunger A10 basket case-Gunny bag project I am currently piecing together (Not running) and if its helpful I am happy to pull some covers or take any pictures you might need.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: muskrat on 08.07. 2017 19:56
G'day Anji.
My 1st thought is backlash in the gears. A click- clock will be heard at turnover by hand (plugs out) but usually disappears when running above idle. Could try taking the dynamo chain off and run the motor to eliminate that.
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Joolstacho on 09.07. 2017 01:28
Years ago I had a horribly rattly motor that took a bit of sorting, it turned out to be the tappets rattling, bottoming out in the cylinder barrel, caused 'we think' by camfollowers that had be stoned down a little, and possibly a camshaft that had been reground. Perhaps a PO has played around with things.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 09.07. 2017 07:37
It sounds like your engine rebuild was very thorough and you have the bases covered, So I am at a loss to suggest further.  There has been great progress on affordable Small micro cameras and on many forums many bike owners are using them to probe inside gearboxes and engines but It does not seem likely on your bike you could use a device like that.  I am sorry I cannot be more helpful.
Perhaps I can inspect in person with any luck in November? I looked up your area and with any luck I will be visiting India then. Its a long delayed trip but I am overdue to visit.  I have a friend there who manufactures some parts and will be on the lookout for interesting bike stuff as well.
I have a 53-53 Plunger A10 basket case-Gunny bag project I am currently piecing together (Not running) and if its helpful I am happy to pull some covers or take any pictures you might need.

Thanks Sluggo. Are you coming for a bike ride ? My son & & I do bike rides all over India. Check out our website www.ventureonwheels.in Please let me know your travel plans. If you are in Pune we can split a few beers & you can see my bikes ( square 4, 52 flash, 1935 Velocette, 60 Dommi, 1950 Norton Inter 500
Thanks for the offer of help . Best of luck with your restoration.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Sluggo on 09.07. 2017 08:52
I would love to see your bikes (And You too!  *smile*)  I am told by my friend Dave who was there for 6 months I have to ALSO go see Norton Singh,, who has something like 27 Nortons and even named his son Norton.  I have a special Norton America motorsports brochure signed by Kenny Dreer that I am gifting him.

My good friend Sobby has been trying to get me to come visit for several years...  *dunno*
And he has visited here multiple times.  We premiered his movie here in Oregon at the NW Vintage car & Motorcycle museum where I volunteer at and do promoting for.
We served Indian food,, it went over very well. 

See: http://www.nwcarandcycle.com/

Here is his Movie,, perhaps you are familiar or know Sobby? 
See: http://www.dirttrackproductions.com/ocr.html 

Cant miss him.  He is the really big Indian!
Sobby is also part of some sort of adventure riding club, so for sure I will get some saddle time.
I used to live in the Middle east and Turkey, so I am familiar with the driving/riding style.
There is a bit of a back story here...  *contract*  You see I was ran over on my motorcycle here in the US by a speeding drunk driver who was texting.  I was doing 45 mph, and she was doing 75-80 mph.  When she hit me I hit her windshield so hard the back window dislodged from her car.  By all rights I should have died that night.  The trauma center they took me too used me as a teaching tool for the medical students.   The truth is Ducati parts partially save my life.
(998 superbike alloy radiator) or saved my spine from paralysis.  Just to mix it all up I was riding a Harley.  Since then I have had a lot of health issues.. So, after several years I am getting active again working on bikes.  I also have many excuses why I have not travelled to India yet, but Sobby & his family seem very forgiving of my many problems.

So, the point here is, Not only am I coming to visit Sobby and his family, but I am working on some motorcycle products with him.  BUT........ *eek*
Sobby insists that I come to visit a very special shrine in India for people who have been in a motorcycle accident.  The Shrine is in the middle of the road and the road detours around it. 
Perhaps you know of this shrine?  Its a very interesting story about it.  Sobby says I am a story teller and I should come visit and tell the story.

So, My friend Dave Smith (Really! Thats his name, Customs and travel is fun with that name)
spent 6 months in India and travelled all over..He at one point needed a vacation from India so just like Bob Seger, he went to Katmandu.  That story is a story in itself and very interesting.
So, it was a few years back but you can read each installment of the India travels here...

http://www.nokilli.com/rtw/archives/000084.html

 (Or read about round Australia and New Zealand, If you only read one of Dave storys, my favorite is the installment in New Zealand which starts off slow but is a cracker and thrilling read.. "The world wars ate my bowels!"

Heres a picture of Dave at the Hollywood Oscars awards ceremony with Sandra Bullock and Keanu Reeves..

And here is Dave and Sobby, Dave grew a Salvadori Dali moustache for the India trip. That is also a story in itself.. 

Confused??? its okay, I have a head injury (TBI) I start the day confused and work thru it.  *countdown* *help*



Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 12.07. 2017 07:07
G'day Anji.
My 1st thought is backlash in the gears. A click- clock will be heard at turnover by hand (plugs out) but usually disappears when running above idle. Could try taking the dynamo chain off and run the motor to eliminate that.
Cheers

Hi Muskrat
Haven't mounted the Dynamo as yet Muskrat. Backlash is negligible. I have tried setting the tappets at .002 but no luck. Oil appears to be flowing as a lot comes out of the cover when I open it. It's a heavier sound than a clicking, more like a heavy tapping sound. Took the cover off, removed the plugs & turned the engine over slowly. The sound appears Once a Rev,  almost like the valve hitting the seat ! ! Springs are not binding.
Sound appears to lessen at higher revs but could be because of louder exhaust note.
Foxed !!
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 12.07. 2017 07:15
Years ago I had a horribly rattly motor that took a bit of sorting, it turned out to be the tappets rattling, bottoming out in the cylinder barrel, caused 'we think' by camfollowers that had be stoned down a little, and possibly a camshaft that had been reground. Perhaps a PO has played around with things.

Thanks joolstacho
Please see my reply to Muskrat. Camshaft did not show signs of reworking.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: duTch on 12.07. 2017 08:28
  May be a REAL long shot,  but do you have the stock studs on the Primary chain tensioner ? I know is not the side that the sound is,  but no other suggestions are working.
 If  you have non-standard studs in there,  maybe they're too long and banging on the crank Web (or crank web is banging on them) -once per revolution
  *dunno*
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: chaterlea25 on 12.07. 2017 22:19
Hi All,
Anji, Have you tried the screwdriver stethoscope to try and localise the noise?

I have just put the top end back on an A65 that blew out the base gasket *eek*
on examination I found that the pistons were hitting the old head gasket *ex*
I bored out the new gasket hole by 1mm
I remember on one occasion where this happened to a Tri**** and made a loud tapping noise on every revolution !!!

John
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: edboy on 13.07. 2017 02:17
a valve adjuster is not hitting the rocker cover is it? that makes a row.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: muskrat on 13.07. 2017 20:44
G'day Anji.
I still think it's the backlash in the gears. It only takes a few thou" to get the tick-tock. turning the motor over the cam is pushing one valve open then as it goes over max lift another valve is on it's way down and exerts backward pressure on thr cam and tries to turn it backwards. Then the cam catches up as it starts to push the next valve.
If you take both covers off (leaving the idler in place) and turn the motor over you will see it happening.
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 17.07. 2017 07:08
G'day Anji.
I still think it's the backlash in the gears. It only takes a few thou" to get the tick-tock. turning the motor over the cam is pushing one valve open then as it goes over max lift another valve is on it's way down and exerts backward pressure on thr cam and tries to turn it backwards. Then the cam catches up as it starts to push the next valve.
If you take both covers off (leaving the idler in place) and turn the motor over you will see it happening.

Cheers
Hi Muskrat
Thanks. Took off the timing covers, plugs, & turned the engine by hand. Noise. Took the tappets right off, noise still there. Removed the rocker box , no noise. The only backlash is on the mag auto advance gear, but this is fibre & shoudnt be a contributing factor in my opinion. No play in the rockers. Cam bushes new. Backlash on gear train very negligible, almost 0. Cam bushes have been line bored & no radial play. Even changed the auto advance springs. Really not keen to strip the engine again.
Take care, cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 17.07. 2017 07:12
  May be a REAL long shot,  but do you have the stock studs on the Primary chain tensioner ? I know is not the side that the sound is,  but no other suggestions are working.
 If  you have non-standard studs in there,  maybe they're too long and banging on the crank Web (or crank web is banging on them) -once per revolution
  *dunno*
Hi Dutch
Studs are original. Sound happens when the valves start opening / closing. Have turned the engine over slowly by hand & seen this happen
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 17.07. 2017 07:13
a valve adjuster is not hitting the rocker cover is it? that makes a row.
Negative, Checked that. Thanks
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Joolstacho on 17.07. 2017 07:14
Anj, has it occurred to you that these things ARE old rattly motors. They were like that when they were new. You seem to have covered most of the bases, maybe you're worried about nothing!
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 17.07. 2017 07:21
Anj, has it occurred to you that these things ARE old rattly motors. They were like that when they were new. You seem to have covered most of the bases, maybe you're worried about nothing!
Point taken Joolstacho. Just worried it's that & nothing more serious. Even my Plunger flash is noisy & Ive driven her on long hauls of 1500 kms with no hassles. So maybe you're right
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 17.07. 2017 07:24
G'day Anji.
I still think it's the backlash in the gears. It only takes a few thou" to get the tick-tock. turning the motor over the cam is pushing one valve open then as it goes over max lift another valve is on it's way down and exerts backward pressure on thr cam and tries to turn it backwards. Then the cam catches up as it starts to push the next valve.
If you take both covers off (leaving the idler in place) and turn the motor over you will see it happening.
Cheers

Another thought just occurred. Is it possible that the valves could be touching the piston
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Joolstacho on 17.07. 2017 08:04
Mate, I think if valves were hitting the pistons you'd have more problems than a little noise!
If that were happening you'd soon have a bent valve and loss of compression.
How high have you revved it?
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: chotus52 on 17.07. 2017 12:24
I wouldn't set the tappets at .002. The correct setting is .008 for the inlet & .010 (.012 in the maintenance manual) for the exhaust. You will lose power plus burn an exhaust valve if they're too tight.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Klaus on 17.07. 2017 12:33
G'day Anji.
I still think it's the backlash in the gears. It only takes a few thou" to get the tick-tock. turning the motor over the cam is pushing one valve open then as it goes over max lift another valve is on it's way down and exerts backward pressure on thr cam and tries to turn it backwards. Then the cam catches up as it starts to push the next valve.
If you take both covers off (leaving the idler in place) and turn the motor over you will see it happening.
Cheers

Another thought just occurred. Is it possible that the valves could be touching the piston


Yes, iff the valvegiude is not in the correct angle and a little bit out offline the valve can touch the outside from the valvepockets at the inlet valve, because it is bigger diameter than exhaust.

By building  up some engines I have learned everything can happen.
Fit new conrods and pistons and by running there was a twittering noise. My first thougt it take a little time to keep oil up to the rockers, they were also new. The noise growing bigger when the engine get worm. I opened the timing side to get the ignition a better set up there was a little alloy flitter swiming in the oil.  Damned....another strip down..
It was the pistonshirt that touched the flywheel by a whisker... *eek*

Take a negative selection, sort out what not can happen.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: mugwump on 17.07. 2017 12:38
If the valves or guides are worn the valve head can make a clack sound as it seats.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 18.07. 2017 06:27
I wouldn't set the tappets at .002. The correct setting is .008 for the inlet & .010 (.012 in the maintenance manual) for the exhaust. You will lose power plus burn an exhaust valve if they're too tight.
Hi Chohtus, just set them at .002 to eliminate one possibility. Never ran the engine
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 18.07. 2017 06:33
Mate, I think if valves were hitting the pistons you'd have more problems than a little noise!
If that were happening you'd soon have a bent valve and loss of compression.
How high have you revved it?
Ran her for a few minutes at fast idle. Just a thought in case the valves were just "kissing" the piston at TDC non compression stroke. Can't otherwise fathom what could be the cause
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 18.07. 2017 06:34
If the valves or guides are worn the valve head can make a clack sound as it seats.
New guides & valves
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 20.07. 2017 07:26
Hi
Not really in the mood to strip the bike down again for the second time , so considering these are supposed to be noisy motors, should I just go ahead & run the bike ?
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Joolstacho on 20.07. 2017 07:58
I wonder if you could borrow a boroscope, which MIGHT enable you to see any valve/piston kissing marks via the spark plug holes.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Sluggo on 20.07. 2017 08:23
The marketplace has exploded with cheap borescopes of all kinds.  I am a certified NDT inspector for Aerospace and they used to be stupid expensive,,,  In other career in kind of the opposite end I worked as a maint tech for a govt agency and we used to use scopes all the time for such things as looking inside walls and crawlspaces but most commonly in pipes and sewers.  You CAN spend a lot on them.
But in the last 12 months many people have been buying them online from eBay, Amazon and others and much entertainment posting videos and pictures online to friends of internals of Gearboxs, engines and such.  One of the locals in our Norton club has been posting a lot of this.
Heres one example,,, See: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LEU9SRU/ref=asc_df_B01LEU9SRU5083404/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01LEU9SRU&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198112160800&hvpos=1o8&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9080657323932829039&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032950&hvtargid=pla-320708499343

Hooks right up to your crackberry. Update your facebook pix while you are at it
(Bob Smiths relationship status is "Worn bushings and cam journals").   I think this could be a wonderful addition to anyones toolbox, and plan to start researching a good one for Auto-Motorcycle applications as it could be very useful.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: coater87 on 20.07. 2017 14:03
 

 Thats a judgement call, and your the judge my friend.

 I would do everything besides split the cases to find out what the noise is and where its coming from just for my own piece of mind.

 

 Lee
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: muskrat on 20.07. 2017 20:28
G'day Anji.
It would be really helpful if you could post a video (with good sound) of turning the motor over by hand (plugs out) then a little quicker with the kickstart then with the motor running. Or even a sound recording with your phone and email that to me.
If you decide to ride her, just do a few short (5-10 mile) runs to see if it gets any worse. Then increase the distance to a few 50 mile rides.
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: trevinoz on 20.07. 2017 22:16
Anji, the iron head engines are not normally noisy.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 24.07. 2017 11:57
I wonder if you could borrow a boroscope, which MIGHT enable you to see any valve/piston kissing marks via the spark plug holes.
Trying to locate one on Amazon. India. What would be a good one to buy as I have no clue
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 24.07. 2017 11:58
The marketplace has exploded with cheap borescopes of all kinds.  I am a certified NDT inspector for Aerospace and they used to be stupid expensive,,,  In other career in kind of the opposite end I worked as a maint tech for a govt agency and we used to use scopes all the time for such things as looking inside walls and crawlspaces but most commonly in pipes and sewers.  You CAN spend a lot on them.
But in the last 12 months many people have been buying them online from eBay, Amazon and others and much entertainment posting videos and pictures online to friends of internals of Gearboxs, engines and such.  One of the locals in our Norton club has been posting a lot of this.
Heres one example,,, See: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LEU9SRU/ref=asc_df_B01LEU9SRU5083404/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01LEU9SRU&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198112160800&hvpos=1o8&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9080657323932829039&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032950&hvtargid=pla-320708499343

Hooks right up to your crackberry. Update your facebook pix while you are at it
(Bob Smiths relationship status is "Worn bushings and cam journals").   I think this could be a wonderful addition to anyones toolbox, and plan to start researching a good one for Auto-Motorcycle applications as it could be very useful.

Looking for one but need to know what to pickup. Huge range in price from 800 to 12000( rupees )
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 24.07. 2017 12:06
G'day Anji.
It would be really helpful if you could post a video (with good sound) of turning the motor over by hand (plugs out) then a little quicker with the kickstart then with the motor running. Or even a sound recording with your phone and email that to me.
If you decide to ride her, just do a few short (5-10 mile) runs to see if it gets any worse. Then increase the distance to a few 50 mile rides.
Cheers
Hi Muskrat
I have a recording but need your mail ID. Mine is tours@ventureonwheels.in
I have already run the engine stationary for around 10 mins on fast idle. Initially less sound but builds up soon & then stays constant.Dosent affect the running of the engine but is very irritating
On turning by hand the sound seems like valve seating & comes when the valves are opening or closing. Cant figure it out as the cam bushes are new & there is no play in the rocker spindles.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: bsa-bill on 24.07. 2017 12:07
Quote
What would be a good one to buy as I have no clue

a major consideration is the size of the scopes lens end if you want to poke it through a plug hole.
I bought one many years ago for other uses including looking into the rocker box, I was disappointed it would not go through the plug hole, they have as been said got much smaller these days, might have another look although not required at the mo
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: Klaus on 24.07. 2017 12:14
Hi
Started up the engine. Running sweet but noisy valve gear. Oil flow adequate as oil reaching rockers, timing cover & hopefully the camshaft. Tappets set at .010. No end float on breather. Negligible back lash on gears. New cam bushes. Old rockers as replacements not available, but good fit on shafts. Any suggestions ?
Anji

Build up a new engine with all timingside bushes new. Go for a testride froum about 40 km. Engine runs fine with good acceleration, but when I m at home there was sometimes a violent noise, only at tick over.
Result was an idler pinion with less sideplay. Only a shim to much, and a solved problem done in half an hour.

cheers Klaus
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: chaterlea25 on 24.07. 2017 16:28
HI ANji,
A while ago I built a BSA single engine and on turning the engine over it made a Clicky / pinging noise  *eek*
After some investigation it turned out to be a valve spring becoming coil bound at full lift
One of the new springs had an extra 2/3 turn of wire but was the correct overall length

See can you open each valve further when fully open (lever)

John
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: RichardL on 25.07. 2017 01:21
Quote
What would be a good one to buy as I have no clue

a major consideration is the size of the scopes lens end if you want to poke it through a plug hole.
I bought one many years ago for other uses including looking into the rocker box, I was disappointed it would not go through the plug hole, they have as been said got much smaller these days, might have another look although not required at the mo

Bill, you were supposed to buy the boroscope not the used sigmoidoscope.

Richard L.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: muskrat on 29.07. 2017 04:58
G'day all.
Anji sent me a video of the noise.
https://youtu.be/pKgXLBPowFc
1st time I've posted a youtube thing so hope it works.
Now the double click IS timing gear backlash (a lot louder than mine when tested last night) but what is the single click between the double clicks? Testing on my Cafe fitted with a Bunn breather I had a single click at about the same position as Anji's. It was one of the valves operating. So I imagine Anji's single click may be to do with the timed breather.
All thoughts welcome.
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: muskrat on 29.07. 2017 05:00
Doh, then I noticed the timed breather thing isn't in the case.
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: coater87 on 29.07. 2017 14:39
 I am going to take a wild guess here.

 Where the inner primary cover bolts to the motor, there are 5 threaded holes that go all the way through. If one of your screws/bolts is just a bit too long it will hit the crank and make a clicking noise.

 Lee
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: JulianS on 29.07. 2017 15:10
Have you checked for a broken valve spring?
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: mugwump on 29.07. 2017 16:19
The 'clack' sounds very much like cam followers to me. I've replaced mine twice very recently, because the new pattern ones sent me were c**p ( the cupped end was a sloppy fit on the p/rod and there was a pip in the cup left by using a cheap or worn ball cutter. I replaced them with original s/h ones . Luckily I managed it by lifting the head and barrel together.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: muskrat on 29.07. 2017 20:55
G'day Lee.
It's a plunger, the inner primary is part of the left crankcase.

Yes mugwump, I'm thinking sticky followers or as has been mentioned before, the cam and/or followers have been reground to the point where the followers don't drop far enough to reach the cam.

Anji, have you tried setting the tappets to zero or even a few thou" tight? This should keep the followers firm on the cam base circle and reduce the click. If it doesn't were back to cam/followers.
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 30.07. 2017 12:55
G'day Lee.
It's a plunger, the inner primary is part of the left crankcase.

Yes mugwump, I'm thinking sticky followers or as has been mentioned before, the cam and/or followers have been reground to the point where the followers don't drop far enough to reach the cam.

Anji, have you tried setting the tappets to zero or even a few thou" tight? This should keep the followers firm on the cam base circle and reduce the click. If it doesn't were back to cam/followers.
Cheers

Hi Musky
Have taken the tappets down to 0 but noise persists
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 30.07. 2017 12:56
Have you checked for a broken valve spring?
Hi Julian
Checked & no springs seem broken. Will check again
Thanks
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 30.07. 2017 13:00
HI ANji,
A while ago I built a BSA single engine and on turning the engine over it made a Clicky / pinging noise  *eek*
After some investigation it turned out to be a valve spring becoming coil bound at full lift
One of the new springs had an extra 2/3 turn of wire but was the correct overall length

See can you open each valve further when fully open (lever)

John
Hi John
Will try & check as soon as the rains let up. Been raining non stop for the past 10 days or so ( Monsoons !! ) Will keep you posted
Anji
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 30.07. 2017 13:03
Hi
Started up the engine. Running sweet but noisy valve gear. Oil flow adequate as oil reaching rockers, timing cover & hopefully the camshaft. Tappets set at .010. No end float on breather. Negligible back lash on gears. New cam bushes. Old rockers as replacements not available, but good fit on shafts. Any suggestions ?
Anji

Build up a new engine with all timingside bushes new. Go for a testride froum about 40 km. Engine runs fine with good acceleration, but when I m at home there was sometimes a violent noise, only at tick over.
Result was an idler pinion with less sideplay. Only a shim to much, and a solved problem done in half an hour.

cheers Klaus
Hi Klaus
I think theres adequate end float, but will check as soon as I can work on the bike. Its pissing down for the past 10 days almost non stop
Thanks
Anji
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: mugwump on 30.07. 2017 13:15
You could slacken off each tappet completely in turn and see if the 'clack' disappears. Alternatively, with all the tappets slackened right off by placing a finger on the push-rod and turning the engine slowly see if the p/rod stays in contact with the cam shaft quietening ramp.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: chaterlea25 on 30.07. 2017 20:18
Hi Muskie,
All I can hear on the youtube clip is the kickstart ratchet  *eek*

John
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: muskrat on 30.07. 2017 20:47
G'day John.
The ratchet noise is on the kickstart return, no ratchet noise when turning the motor over.
If you watch the crankshaft the double click is when the groove for the tab washer appears, the single click is about 90 degrees past it.

Anji, with no clearance at the tappets the followers should be hard against the cam (or hung up on the retaining screws). So this brings me back to timing gear backlash (all A7/A10 motors have the click/click at hand cranking speed, some louder than others (yours are very loud)). OR the cam and followers have been ground and the followers are hung up on the retaining screws.
Does putting the breather and cork back in make any difference ?
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: bikerboy on 30.07. 2017 23:46
Why not just start ewmoving things until the noise stops?

Unadjust the tappets and take the idler out see if the clicking stops

If it does then its followers or valves if not then its bottom end

That would be my approach one thing off at a time until it stopped.

I would also turn the engine with a spanner to eliminate that rachet noise, you might even feel it with a spanner and if you can then you know which valve is opening or closing as well.

Thats my two pennies worth anyway
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: RichardL on 31.07. 2017 00:08
I'm not reading all previous posts to know if this has been offered, and there have been many other (probably better) explanations, but could it possibly be a rod nut just kissing the case or the crank just kissing a drive-side cover screw?

Richard L.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: coater87 on 31.07. 2017 00:59
Richard,

I tried the drive side cover screw. The bike is a plunger and I guess it's a different arrangement.

 We don't see many plunger A10s on this side of the world. *conf*

 Lee
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: RichardL on 31.07. 2017 02:01
I was more leaning at the rod nut anyway, because the cover screw would scrape along.

Richard L.
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: muskrat on 31.07. 2017 10:59
The only time I had a problem with a rod nut it gave a little scrape before lock up.
BB's method has merit BUT turn the motor to pistons down the bore BEFORE you take the idler gear out. You can then turn the cam pinion without bending a valve.
Cheers
Title: Re: A7 timing side noise
Post by: anjimehra on 07.08. 2017 13:22
Hi friends
The rains finally gave up for a while & was able to get back to the bike
Was reassembling the top end & discovered that the ball end on one exhaust push rod was a loose fit in the tubular body. This end was in the follower. Could this be the culprit I wonder?
Anji