The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: LynnLegend on 21.07. 2017 16:48

Title: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 21.07. 2017 16:48
Hello,

If you haven't already come across my posts, I'm new to this.

Which oil should I put in my 59 A7? Haynes manual suggests Castro gtx 20w/50, however I'm anxious to put 21st century oil into it without checking here first.

Thanks,

Sam.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: RoyC on 21.07. 2017 17:19
Hello,

If you haven't already come across my posts, I'm new to this.

Which oil should I put in my 59 A7? Haynes manual suggests Castro gtx 20w/50, however I'm anxious to put 21st century oil into it without checking here first.

Thanks,

Sam.

I am using V twin 20.50 in my 58 A7.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: a10gf on 21.07. 2017 17:33
If engine 'refurbished' and cleaned (not full of sludge and dead rats from the 1950's which, when using modern oils, may get partially dissolved and move around blocking oilways), then modern oil.

If engine not checked (especially sludgs traps), I'd say 'old style' oil until a full oilways\sludge check has been done.

Just some opinions.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 21.07. 2017 18:11
Thanks both for your replies - may I ask what constitutes an 'old style' oil? bottom end almost definitely full of dead rats/mice/birds etc.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Black Sheep on 21.07. 2017 18:11
A good 20W-50 should do all you want - Halfords Classic, Millers or whatever.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: a10gf on 21.07. 2017 18:42
Thanks both for your replies - may I ask what constitutes an 'old style' oil?

Was refering to oil without detergeants.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: ellis on 21.07. 2017 19:20
Hi LynnLegend. You've opened a big can of worms with an oil question, everybody has their own idea of what oil to use. I personally use Penrite 20-60 as it has a high zinc content that is good for older engines. By the way my engine is very clean inside. Good luck with your choice.  *smile*

ELLIS
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: RichardL on 21.07. 2017 19:23
My answer to this question is bound to get me in trouble with somebody. I'm guessing BSA 54_A10. ( who, in the past, has provided a very educational description of oil idiosyncracies). I use Valvoline 20-50  VR1 racing oil with high zinc (ZDDP) to protect the kinda-flat tappets. Modern street oils are restricted in zinc PP.M, but modern engines don't have flat tappets

Richard L.

Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: RichardL on 21.07. 2017 19:25
OK, Ellis beat me to.the punch on zinc because we were.typing at the same time.

Richard L
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: ellis on 21.07. 2017 19:32
Hi RichardL, you need to be quick on this site.   *smile*

ELLIS
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 22.07. 2017 08:24
It matters not which oil you put in your engine.
Even supermarket oil today is better than premium oil in the 50's.

What is vital is HOW LONG IT STAYS THERE.
Unless you have an external oil filter there is no such thing as changing the oil to often.
Detergent or non detergent will make absolutely no difference unless you have an external oil filter fitted where you need detergents in order to assist the filter removing the crap put of the oil.

Thick oil will make it harder to kick but will run a lot quieter and leak a lot less. particularly wet sumping.
Thin oil will make it easier to kick, go faster , leak everywhere and be noisy.
If you change your own oil in your car, use that oil, drain it every couple of runs then put it in your car.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: morris on 22.07. 2017 10:17
Penrite's 20/60 does it for me to.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: KiwiGF on 22.07. 2017 13:05
Castrol gtx 20/50 does it for me, on a rebuilt engine with cleaned sludge trap and norton comnando type external filter. Changed every 1000 miles ish  *smile*

It's a relatively cheap oil in nz, $28 for 4l at the warehouse.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Sluggo on 22.07. 2017 19:33
On older bikes like this I buy generic 30 weight for break in and test runs for unknown history engines until the sludge trap can be cleaned.  I have some farm supply stores as well as Walmart (Who I hate, but occasionally succumb for certain items).
Again for older engines I buy tractor and ag supply oil as it has the zinc we need.  Delo 400 is also used in many Diesel pickups as well and has been a reasonable choice.  Big Blue bottles
See: http://www.deloperformance.com/en-us/products.html    Multiple choices for weights...

I need to research other choices but this has been my go-to for some time over the last 10 years.

I have a frequent rant about filters but the short version is a return line filter is a must have item on any of my british bikes unless built for show only. I only have one bike I am considering not using one on. A full flow Norton commando type filter is what I use but sometimes use aftermarket mounts, but sometimes the norton ones. The key issue that some people have argued about, I still insist only one type filter is acceptable on these old bikes.
You must test the filter and many modern ones have a internal flap or check valve limiting flow. the idea is to prevent backflow or sumping but they only operate over a certain pressure.
BAD FOR OLD BRITT BIKES!   This results in the oil sumping until pressure is high enough for flow which can be a disaster.
The test can be embarrassing in public but you place your mouth over the opening and make sure air flow can move thru the filter.  Once you ID filters that are acceptable many places have a cross reference for similar filters.

I will make a point about oil grades and thickness. While I agree that a thicker oil will leak less, and run quieter,  Its exactly what you DO NOT WANT.  I was taught by a old master in aviation school about oils and learned as well in multiple test labs  (POL=Petroleum, Oils & Lubricants)
from techs much smarter than me.  Oil FLOW and VOLUME is what you want.  Thickness (Viscosity) results in poor flow and actually friction in itself.  Thick oil resists flow and is hard on the pump, and components.  High pressures are an indication of friction and resistance to flow.
Much better to have low pressure and high volume than high pressure and low volume. 
There is a sweet spot of course, "Goldilocks".
Of course a thinner oil will leak more but thats a seperate issue.  When your BSA is not marking its spot its probably out of oil.
There is a number of things you can do during a rebuild to optimize lubrication but thats a seperate topic.

I grilled one of the lead crew chiefs for Rahals team in the old indy car series when the synthetics were first coming out, and they were sponsored by Penzoil,  During the Chevy Illmore era.  They were alarmed at extremely low pressure readings during car testing. A call to Penzoil and their techs was a response of "No problem, run it!"  When they continued to express doubt
Penzoil said "If you can show any engine damage linked to lubrication we will buy/pay for your motors replacement"  These motors were a sizable chunk of money.  The engine and crew chief techs told me at the end of the season they did not have one engine failure related to lubrication.  That was pretty compelling to me.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Peter in Aus on 23.07. 2017 04:15

BAD FOR OLD BRITT BIKES!   This results in the oil sumping until pressure is high enough for flow which can be a disaster.
The test can be embarrassing in public but you place your mouth over the opening and make sure air flow can move thru the filter.  Once you ID filters that are acceptable many places have a cross reference for similar filters.



Hi Sluggo, very interesting, can you elaborate a bit more about checking the filters, I’m using a Baldwin B7292 filter in my A10 58 and can blow through the center of the filter (a new one) but it is quite hard to do so, it is not free flowing , so not sure if that is what u mean or not?
Cheers,
Peter
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 23.07. 2017 07:54
Thanks all for your very knowledgeable replies!
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Sluggo on 23.07. 2017 08:49
Peter I am not familiar with that brand, but You in Oz & me US, so, the issue is that many auto type filters use a flap or check valve

(most seem to be a nitrile or rubber like disc inside if you cut open a filter which is never a bad idea to see what each brand is made of)

On many cars this is intended to prevent wet sumping or at least all the top end oil draining back.
(is my guess, intuition, assumption)  Many only allow flow one direction, or limit flow to over a certain pressure.  I have not talked to any filter engineers or designers so I am speculating on motives here.  But I can say with experience is that when applied to a Brit bike with our creaky old oil systems Most RETURN side of the pumps tend to be overgeared compared to the inlet side.  (Theres ratios for people who care to look) But as a result at lower RPMS the pump is cavitating a bit on the return and lots of air and bubbles so pressure is actually quite sporadic and iffy at low RPMS.  At higher RPMS most pumps have a sizable stream squiriting into the tank, But at low RPMS you can see 2-5 PSI on a roller bearing bottom (IE Goldstar-B33-B34 etc)
or on many twins 5-7 psi then that might not be enough to move past the filter if restricted.
That means you are repeating the Norton Combat problem in reverse (oil puddles at high RPM on the Combat cases)    Fred does a good job explaining that at Old Britts,,, Worth a read
See: https://www.oldbritts.com/n_c_case.html
But on a old BSA you could have a sizable, albeit alarmingly high amount of your oil capacity backing up in the engine. (Some of these preunits have small oil tanks) Before your pump picks up enough and pressure to move that oil back to the tank.

So, dont know if you have access to a Norton Commando filter but if you do, you can move air freely thru the filter media in BOTH directs..THAT is what you want. Unimpeded flow. IF there is any restriction in any either direction I would strongly recommend you not use that type filter.
Nobody is restricting people to a Norton filter.  Theres cross references to suitable filters for a number of cars that will work. (Note *IF* using a Norton filter base, some use different threads than a std car.  Check threads. Dont load up shavings and metal fillings or worse have the filter fall off)

I have bought Harley filter bases from the dealership take off sale depts.  Some HD model uses a remote filter base.  But again check the filter you are installing. But they tend to be small bases, nice alloy finish or some textured black material.  And, filter availability tends to be good.

One other note. On some car applications they run a check valve in the housing itself, this tends to be a 10-12mm small spring loaded disc.  Those are a safety valve where if a forgetful owner runs a clogged filter it bypasses the filter entirely and floods the engine with unfiltered oil as a safety measure. (Dirty oil is better than NO oil).  These types of filter bases are not a great idea for a vintage Britt bike.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Peter in Aus on 23.07. 2017 09:53
Thanks Sluggo, I can see I will have to do some looking around, it is obvious the filter I am using is not suitable *doubt*
Cheers
Peter
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 23.07. 2017 10:12

Again for older engines I buy tractor and ag supply oil as it has the zinc we need.  Delo 400 is also used in many Diesel pickups as well and has been a reasonable choice.  Big Blue bottles
See: http://www.deloperformance.com/en-us/products.html    Multiple choices for weights...

No problems here, know lots of people who have diesel cars & used diesel oil in their bikes without problems


I have a frequent rant about filters but the short version is a return line filter is a must have item on any of my british bikes unless built for show only. I only have one bike I am considering not using one on. A full flow Norton commando type filter is what I use but sometimes use aftermarket mounts, but sometimes the norton ones. The key issue that some people have argued about, I still insist only one type filter is acceptable on these old bikes.
You must test the filter and many modern ones have a internal flap or check valve limiting flow. the idea is to prevent backflow or sumping but they only operate over a certain pressure.
BAD FOR OLD BRITT BIKES!   This results in the oil sumping until pressure is high enough for flow which can be a disaster.
The test can be embarrassing in public but you place your mouth over the opening and make sure air flow can move thru the filter.  Once you ID filters that are acceptable many places have a cross reference for similar filters.

Never hear of an automotive oil filter with a check valve so what car takes them ?
OTOH I have 28 different transmission oil filters that all have check valves in them but as they are 4 times the price of an auto filter I could not see any BSA owner buying one of these.
In fact they are all big filters with a substantially bigger thread to prevent idiots fitting them to their cars so I doubt that any would fit in the first place.
And if they did the filter grade 5-10 micron is so small that 30W oil would not flow through it in any case.


I will make a point about oil grades and thickness. While I agree that a thicker oil will leak less, and run quieter,  Its exactly what you DO NOT WANT.  I was taught by a old master in aviation school about oils and learned as well in multiple test labs  (POL=Petroleum, Oils & Lubricants)
from techs much smarter than me.  Oil FLOW and VOLUME is what you want.  Thickness (Viscosity) results in poor flow and actually friction in itself.  Thick oil resists flow and is hard on the pump, and components.  High pressures are an indication of friction and resistance to flow.
Much better to have low pressure and high volume than high pressure and low volume. 

However this while having some fact in there ( Viscosity is a measure of the friction of the oil ) what you are advocating might apply to aero engines but is utter crap in so far as an A 7 / A 10 engine.
The oil clearences on BSA's and engines DESIGNED BEFORE WWII are massive compared to modern engines.
No where in the engine is there a metered oil way and running high volume low pressure oil flows will result in extreme wear if not a thrown left rod.
The engines were designed to have a specific flow of oil traveling between the surfaces and this takes into account the viscosity of the oil creating enough back pressure to prevent all of the oil draining at the timing side bearing.
End fed cranks might get away with it but no BSA twin will.

We used to run very light oil in the race bikes, ( Good for an extra 2-3 Hp ) but they got pulled down after every meeting and we changed bearings on them more often than I change my undies

Of course a thinner oil will leak more but thats a seperate issue.  When your BSA is not marking its spot its probably out of oil.
There is a number of things you can do during a rebuild to optimize lubrication but thats a seperate topic.

I grilled one of the lead crew chiefs for Rahals team in the old indy car series when the synthetics were first coming out, and they were sponsored by Penzoil,  During the Chevy Illmore era.  They were alarmed at extremely low pressure readings during car testing. A call to Penzoil and their techs was a response of "No problem, run it!"  When they continued to express doubt
Penzoil said "If you can show any engine damage linked to lubrication we will buy/pay for your motors replacement"  These motors were a sizable chunk of money.  The engine and crew chief techs told me at the end of the season they did not have one engine failure related to lubrication.  That was pretty compelling to me.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 23.07. 2017 10:39
Peter I am not familiar with that brand, but You in Oz & me US, so, the issue is that many auto type filters use a flap or check valve

(most seem to be a nitrile or rubber like disc inside if you cut open a filter which is never a bad idea to see what each brand is made of)

On many cars this is intended to prevent wet sumping or at least all the top end oil draining back.
(is my guess, intuition, assumption)  Many only allow flow one direction, or limit flow to over a certain pressure.  I have not talked to any filter engineers or designers so I am speculating on motives here.  But I can say with experience is that when applied to a Brit bike with our creaky old oil systems Most RETURN side of the pumps tend to be overgeared compared to the inlet side.  (Theres ratios for people who care to look) But as a result at lower RPMS the pump is cavitating a bit on the return and lots of air and bubbles so pressure is actually quite sporadic and iffy at low RPMS.  At higher RPMS most pumps have a sizable stream squiriting into the tank, But at low RPMS you can see 2-5 PSI on a roller bearing bottom (IE Goldstar-B33-B34 etc)
or on many twins 5-7 psi then that might not be enough to move past the filter if restricted.
That means you are repeating the Norton Combat problem in reverse (oil puddles at high RPM on the Combat cases)    Fred does a good job explaining that at Old Britts,,, Worth a read
See: https://www.oldbritts.com/n_c_case.html
But on a old BSA you could have a sizable, albeit alarmingly high amount of your oil capacity backing up in the engine. (Some of these preunits have small oil tanks) Before your pump picks up enough and pressure to move that oil back to the tank.

So, dont know if you have access to a Norton Commando filter but if you do, you can move air freely thru the filter media in BOTH directs..THAT is what you want. Unimpeded flow. IF there is any restriction in any either direction I would strongly recommend you not use that type filter.
Nobody is restricting people to a Norton filter.  Theres cross references to suitable filters for a number of cars that will work. (Note *IF* using a Norton filter base, some use different threads than a std car.  Check threads. Dont load up shavings and metal fillings or worse have the filter fall off)

I have bought Harley filter bases from the dealership take off sale depts.  Some HD model uses a remote filter base.  But again check the filter you are installing. But they tend to be small bases, nice alloy finish or some textured black material.  And, filter availability tends to be good.

One other note. On some car applications they run a check valve in the housing itself, this tends to be a 10-12mm small spring loaded disc.  Those are a safety valve where if a forgetful owner runs a clogged filter it bypasses the filter entirely and floods the engine with unfiltered oil as a safety measure. (Dirty oil is better than NO oil).  These types of filter bases are not a great idea for a vintage Britt bike.

Most oil filters have a bypass valve. usually set at around 5 to 14 lbs/Sq" .
This is no problem unless you fit the filter backwards where the tired old bad design BSA pump can in fact blow them apart.
Problems with Notruns are no problems with BSA's and applying the Notrun fix to BSA's is a fools errand.
A 7 engines with the std A 7 oil pump have been used very successfully in go carts for years till they got uncompetative with the Maco & Rotax engines.
These engines were running at speeds up to 7500 rpm & I know of one where clock springs were added to the rockers so the owner could get 8500 out of the engine ( braver man than me )
Now these ran special racing rods and a few other trick bits  but retained the std oil pump.
Mortons were running midget cars, some with A 7 engines in as well and again these ran std BSA oil pumps without problems, on dope pumping caster oil.

As for having al alarmingly high amount of oil in the sump , garbage.
We all know exactly what happens when you get better then 200cc of oil in the sump.
Instant smoke screen we have all been there at some time in our lives.

Commandos have a very long stroke and a very bad crankcase design because it started out as a 350 and go overblown to 860.
The A7 was designed as a 500 from the start and then the engine got squared off which drastically changed the charasterics of the pressure pulses.
Crankcase pressure forces oil into the return side of the pulp just the same as it does with every other possible escape path.
Very little of what goes on inside a Notrun is directly applicable to a BSA.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: JulianS on 23.07. 2017 12:22
My simple view;

Oil- I use Morris 20-50 Golden Film in my A10.

 Have used 20-50 multigrade since I bought it in 1973, staring with the then common green Duckhams Q20-50. Has done many many miles including commuting to shift work summer and winter. Never had a problem with multigrade.

Filters - Rocket 3 type in cannister - worked fine and no problems, difficult to mount to allow it to clear everything and be easy to change. (used 2 years)

Next tried commando type various different makers filters - worked fine and no problems but difficult to mount to allow it to clear everything and be easy to change  unless fixed in tool box. Did not like giving up tool box and thought the oil line a bit too long. (Used over 10 years)

Finally chose a Morgo compact type and have been using it the past 3 years. Easy to mount and change filter. Works fine no problems.

Not had any problems with oil backing up in the sump.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: chaterlea25 on 23.07. 2017 12:42
Hi Sam,
Ask you Grandad what oil he used, being a farmer it was probably what he bought by the 5 gallon drum?
(At least that how it was when I grew up on a farm!!)
If the bike was ok on that oil I would continue with the same ??

I run my A10 on Castrol Classic 40, same brand of oil for the last 15 years
All the other A10's and otherbrit twins I build get the same medicine *ex*

John
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Black Sheep on 23.07. 2017 14:15
I used to run my Norton on Agricastrol 40. I did meet a guy (an industrial chemist) who ran his BMW on hydraulic oil, swearing it was very much better than any engine oil. Haven't tried that. Morris's 20-50 or Castrol XL 40, depending on the bike, work for me.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: RichardL on 23.07. 2017 16:32
Hi,

Can anyone give some advice on what kind of oil I should run in my A10?












 *smile* ;)

Richard L.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Zander on 23.07. 2017 17:25
Hi,

Can anyone give some advice on what kind of oil I should run in my A10?

Oily oil is best *bright idea*












 *smile* ;)

Richard L.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: edboy on 23.07. 2017 20:15
of course, there is always the bsa manual when your options are exhausted. was it sae 40 in summer? and sae 30 in winter?
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Rgs-Bill on 23.07. 2017 21:48
of course, there is always the bsa manual when your options are exhausted. was it sae 40 in summer? and sae 30 in winter?

    VALVOLENE VR 1 (RACING OIL )  still has 14 ppm of the zinc we need it comes in mono grade, for 45 years in my 62 RGS I have used 40 weight mono grade , year around in Seattle Washington U S A , temps never get hot enough to use 50 weight. the bottom end has never had to come apart, top ends has had 3, in 45 years.  It is low detergent so the sludge trap will still work.  You do not want detergent oil unless you have an oil filter, which I do not. Change it whenever I drain the sump, (wet sumping ) and feel any grittiness in the oil when rubbing between my fingers.  45 years has to say something for the original engineers, and using mono weight, non detergent oils ! !   If you use multi weight detergent oils, 20/50 say, and do not have a filter, the metal particals are not getting taken out of the oil by the sludge trap, they just keep going through your bearing surfaces causing more and more wear.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Sav on 23.07. 2017 22:18
Silkolene Chatsworth SAE 40 Classic & Vintage Monograde Mineral Engine Oil in my A10Sr and A7ss
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: mikeb on 25.07. 2017 07:47
Lynnlegend - easy to overthink this one right? like who knew oil was so complicated? from my reading of 100  threads:

if you have a filter and clean sludge trap: a modern like penrite 20-60 (here in NZ/Aus, not sure if UK) which has extra zinc. zinc is good for our cam followers etc

if you don't have a filter then don't use a 'modern' detergent oil. use Morris 40 - they make it in your country.

if you are unsure use Morris 40. change it every 1000 miles or less.

and Richard:
Quote
Can anyone give some advice on what kind of oil I should run in my A10?
you are not entitled to ask that question
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Greybeard on 25.07. 2017 15:34
I use Morris SAE 40 with a clean sludge trap and a return line Norton type filter. Also, frequent oil changes, (I bought a 5 gallon drum to save money).  Also, I fitted an alleged high capacity oil pump from Bantam John Phelan. Belt-and-braces, me?
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Greybeard on 25.07. 2017 15:35
LynnLegend (https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2777), if you are not entirely sure what the sludge trap is please research the term!
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Greybeard on 25.07. 2017 15:37
Hi,

Can anyone give some advice on what kind of oil I should run in my A10?

 *smile* ;)

Richard L.

Kindly leave the stage!
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: RichardL on 26.07. 2017 00:07
Hi,

Can anyone give some advice on what kind of oil I should run in my A10?

 *smile* ;)

Richard L.

Kindly leave the stage!

 *lol* *yeah*
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 29.07. 2017 16:11
Good news - granddad has confirmed he had the sludge trap cleared out "a few years ago" (could well be 20 years, but at least it's been cleaned at some point).

I have another oil question, which I'm sure will get a different answer from everyone - which oil should I use in the gearbox, and also for the chain? Again, the Haynes manual suggests 20w50 for gearbox, as in the engine. Im guessing there won't be a simple answer and everyone will have their own preference, but I'd be interested to know whether I should use the same as in the engine.

Thanks,

Sam.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 29.07. 2017 16:15
Scrap that - just found a thread from last year on this topic.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: mikeb on 30.07. 2017 05:17
usually worth a search of the forum for up to date info. some things haven't changed since the 1950's (clearances etc) whereas oil, tyres, some electrics are now so different that whatever the original manual or haynes says is obsolete or misleading. eg tyre pressures used to be about 18lb (if i recall correctly) with 1950 tyres. but modern tyres and compounds now run around 30lb.

BTW - love your signature - I know that feeling!
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 30.07. 2017 10:53
Good news - granddad has confirmed he had the sludge trap cleared out "a few years ago" (could well be 20 years, but at least it's been cleaned at some point).

I have another oil question, which I'm sure will get a different answer from everyone - which oil should I use in the gearbox, and also for the chain? Again, the Haynes manual suggests 20w50 for gearbox, as in the engine. Im guessing there won't be a simple answer and everyone will have their own preference, but I'd be interested to know whether I should use the same as in the engine.

Thanks,

Sam.

Here is a little tip.
Use Royal Purple in your box & ATF in your primary
Thus when oil starts to magically appear you will know where it is coming from by its colour.
ATF makes a better chain lube than Engine oil and is easier on the clutch than engine oil.
Remember these bikes were nothing like oil tight when new and have not gotten any better with age
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 02.08. 2017 16:29
Hi guys,

Thanks for all your help thus far, I will put an update on my "introduction" post shortly.

With regards to the sump, being a clumsy idiot I managed to snap one of the bolts off by over-tightening it*, I managed to drill it out without b*ggering up the thread (hooray), however I'm not sure what size bolt I need to buy to replace it and can't find a standard answer online anywhere - these are normal bolts (I see that some kits come with dowel-type-things which you screw a nut on to. This is my first adventure into imperial sizing, so any help would be GREATLY appreciated.


*Lesson 1 (02/08/18) - Don't over-tighten old bolts.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Topdad on 02.08. 2017 16:42
Whereabouts do you and your bike live ? Please don't give the address online just area as it should be poss for me to send you a stud and nut from when I fitted an SRM sump.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Greybeard on 02.08. 2017 16:56
...With regards to the sump, being a clumsy idiot I managed to snap one of the bolts off by over-tightening it*, I managed to drill it out without b*ggering up the thread (hooray), however I'm not sure what size bolt I need to buy to replace it and can't find a standard answer online anywhere - these are normal bolts (I see that some kits come with dowel-type-things which you screw a nut on to. This is my first adventure into imperial sizing, so any help would be GREATLY appreciated.


*Lesson 1 (02/08/18) - Don't over-tighten old bolts.

No, don't overtighten things on 60+ year old motorcycles!

Should really be studs, (dowel-type-things, threaded at both ends) so that the crankcase threads don't get worn out. The thread for the crankcase will be whitworth while the other end should probably be Cycle thread but may have a more modern thread, BSF, UNF etc. Like this: https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/accessories-a-misc/product/5918-
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 02.08. 2017 16:56
Whereabouts do you and your bike live ? Please don't give the address online just area as it should be poss for me to send you a stud and nut from when I fitted an SRM sump.

I live King's Lynn, Norfolk.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 02.08. 2017 16:58
Hi guys,

Thanks for all your help thus far, I will put an update on my "introduction" post shortly.

With regards to the sump, being a clumsy idiot I managed to snap one of the bolts off by over-tightening it*, I managed to drill it out without b*ggering up the thread (hooray), however I'm not sure what size bolt I need to buy to replace it and can't find a standard answer online anywhere - these are normal bolts (I see that some kits come with dowel-type-things which you screw a nut on to. This is my first adventure into imperial sizing, so any help would be GREATLY appreciated.


*Lesson 1 (02/08/18) - Don't over-tighten old bolts.

No, don't overtighten things on 60+ year old motorcycles!

Should really be studs, (threaded at both ends) so that the crankcase threads don't get worn out. The thread for the crankcase will be whitworth while the other end should probably be Cycle thread but may have a more modern thread, BSF, UNF etc

I would be happy to use studs if I could find where to buy a pack in the correct size - perhaps I might just have to measure it with a tape measure and hope I'm about right?
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Greybeard on 02.08. 2017 17:02
...I would be happy to use studs if I could find where to buy a pack...
https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/accessories-a-misc/product/5918- (https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/accessories-a-misc/product/5918-)
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 02.08. 2017 17:07
...I would be happy to use studs if I could find where to buy a pack...
https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/accessories-a-misc/product/5918- (https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/accessories-a-misc/product/5918-)

Lovely jubbly. I assume the 1/4 inch refers to the width of the stud and therefore a 1/4 inch nut will be the right fit? Sorry to be an imperial thicko - I'll learn.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: LynnLegend on 02.08. 2017 18:20
Having done some more digging online I've found the following on ebay which look just the job -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-Sump-Filter-Plate-Stainless-Steel-Studs-Standard-Length-7-8-long-/112474629877?hash=item1a3002a6f5:m:mjTwOF2t9ZAfdw3vN1m2Jow

Perhaps I should've looked harder in the first place?!
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: duTch on 02.08. 2017 20:20

 I'm sure priory magnetos will have them, and you'll be sure to get the right ones (and a Forum member);

 https://sites.google.com/site/priorymagnetos/accessories (https://sites.google.com/site/priorymagnetos/accessories)
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Greybeard on 02.08. 2017 22:37
If you have one of the aftermarket drainable sum plates you may need slightly longer studs. Can someone advise please?
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: mikeb on 02.08. 2017 23:02
Quote
may need lightly longer studs...
yep they are best a bit longer with those thick alloy aftermarket side-draining sump plates. Studs are better than screws to limit wear in the cases.

I think the standard spec is 31-0222  -STUD, 1/4 20-26TPI X 7/8"
I used these: 70-2980  Triumph Rocker Box Stud 1/4" CEI (26tpi) x 20 (BSW) x 1" with some blue loctite into the cases
if you can find studs 1 1/4" length that would be even better. who is it that sells stainless ones in the UK? they have them (http://www.motalia.net - tho mentioning stainless may start another contentious set of debates - in my view stainless best avoided).
I use a narrow 1/4" CEI thread nut with a rocker box nut on top of that to lock it. the extended shank of the rocker box nut makes it easier to fit/remove as there is not much space in there.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: RichardL on 02.08. 2017 23:42
Well, Molnar Precision makes a lot of stainless steel bits, but I looked at their list and they don't have the studs, so I don't have to steer anyone to them to navigate their way around Nightmare Lady, who runs the hardware division.

Do I sound bitter?  *shh* *pull hair out* *bash* *dribble* It's only been about nine years. I should be over it soon.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: mikeb on 02.08. 2017 23:53
Quote
Do I sound bitter?
nothing wrong with bearing a grudge Richard, elephants excel at it. tho may shorten human life
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Sluggo on 02.08. 2017 23:58
Dont know the story of the nightmare lady,,,Is that anything like Jackie @ Unity equipe?
She was a former ladies undergarment saleswoman at Harrods and went to work at Unity, where she was charming but a bit eccentric (Arent we all??) but became (In my opinion) increasingly unstable and irrational and prone to strange behavior.  Unity is gone now.  (Used to order a lot of their stuff) but I dont miss Jackie at all.

Noddy Holder had a song about this....

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPTk5poAa1c

I don't want to drink my whisky like you do
I don't need to spend my money but still do
Chorus
Don't stop now a c'mon
another drop now c'mon
I want to lot now so c'mon
That's right, that's right
I said Mama but we're all crazy now
I said Mama but we're all crazy now
I said Mama but we're all crazy now
A you told me fool fire water won't hurt me
A you tease me and all my ladies desert me
Chorus
don't want to drink my whisky but still do
I had enough to fill up "H" Hill's left shoe
Chorus
Mama mama mama mama oh yeah...
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Greybeard on 03.08. 2017 08:54
I have a feeling that rocker cover studs are suitable.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Greybeard on 03.08. 2017 08:58
This topic needs splitting; Mr moderator?
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: cyclobutch on 03.08. 2017 13:04
... you may need slightly longer studs. Can someone advise please?

Yeah. Barleycorn made mine.

http://www.barleycorn.co.uk/BSA-Goldstar
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 04.08. 2017 09:17
Always made my own studs .
Bought a stainless bolt for a boat shop, cut the head off than threaded the shank end.
Never been a problem just so long as you take it slow.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: Sluggo on 04.08. 2017 10:36
Modifying a existing bolt either shorter or converting it into a stud is a practical and economical solution especially for obscure applications that no existing or not easily sourced supplier is available.

That being said, as long as one is well aware of the properties of the fastener and what it is to be used for.  Its common for a home workshop to have taps and dies (CUT thread) but few people have the tools to do proper threading for a higher stress application.

FYI,, From : http://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/faqs/rolled-vs-cut-threads-bolts/

What is the difference between a bolt with rolled threads and one with cut threads and does a fastener with a reduced body and rolled threads meet ASTM specifications?
Threads of a mechanical fastener, regardless of whether it is a headed bolt, rod, or bent bolt, can be produced by either cutting or rolling. The differences, misconceptions, advantages, and disadvantages of each method are described below.

Rolled Threads
Roll threading is a process by which steel is extruded to form the threaded portion of a fastener, instead of being removed as in cut threading. In this process, a bolt is manufactured from a reduced diameter round bar. For example, a 1″ diameter bolt is manufactured from .912″ diameter round bar. This “pitch diameter” material is approximately the midpoint between the major diameter (peaks) and minor diameter (valleys) of the threads. The bolt is “rolled” through a set of threading dies which displaces the steel and forms the threads. The end result is a fastener with a full 1″ diameter threaded portion but a reduced body diameter (.912). Roll threading is an extremely efficient process and often results in significant cost savings. Therefore, Portland Bolt will roll threads whenever possible.

Roll Threading Misconceptions

Roll threaded bolts do not meet ASTM specifications.
Technically, any specification with the exception of A325 and A490 structural bolts can be produced with a reduced body and rolled threads.


A bolt with a reduced body will be weaker than a bolt with a full sized body.
The weakest area of any mechanical fastener is the minor diameter of the threads. Since the thread dimensions of a cut thread and rolled thread fastener are identical, there is absolutely no difference in strength. One could actually argue that the work hardening which occurs during the roll threading process may even make the fastener with rolled threads stronger. Additionally, cut threading interrupts the natural grain structure of the round bar whereas roll threading reforms it. One could again argue that cutting into the grain of a round bar when cut threading may produce threads which have less structural integrity than a part which has been roll threaded.

Advantages of Roll Threading

Significantly shorter labor times means lower costs.
Because a roll threaded bolt has a smaller body diameter, it weighs less than its full bodied counterpart. This weight reduction reduces the cost of the steel, galvanizing, heat-treating, plating, freight, and any other costs associated with the fastener that are based on weight.
Cold working makes threads more resistant to damage during handling.
Rolled threads are often smoother due to the burnishing effect of the rolling operation.
Disadvantages of Roll Threading

Portland Bolt is limited to a maximum diameter of 1″ and a maximum thread length of 8″.
The availability of pitch diameter round bar is limited for certain material grades.
150 ksi minimum tensile strength material is too strong for Portland Bolt to roll thread.
A325 and A490 structural bolts cannot be produced with a reduced body diameter.
In rare wood applications where shear strength is the critical requirement, bolts with a full sized body may be required.
Cut Threads
Cut threading is a process by which steel is cut away, or physically removed, from a round bar of steel to form the threads. A 1″ diameter bolt, for example, is produced by cutting threads into a full 1″ diameter body of the bolt.

Advantages of Cut Threading

Few limitations with regard to diameter and thread length.
All specifications can be manufactured with cut threads.
Disadvantages of Cut Threading

Significantly longer labor times means higher costs. (Strength is compromised as well)
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: RoyC on 13.08. 2017 21:41
Always made my own studs .
Bought a stainless bolt for a boat shop, cut the head off than threaded the shank end.
Never been a problem just so long as you take it slow.
Same here, got some 1/4 whitworth bolts and did the same as you.
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: bikerboy on 15.08. 2017 00:44
Firstly I use Morris straight 40 in my A10's winter and summer. As for oil changes the swinging arm version does not need any about every 1000 miles or so it has coated me in oil for one reason or another and gets an automatic oil change  *smile*

Lynn may I suggest you get a parts manual they are cheap enough and quite educational in their own way or draganfly have the schematics on their site. The sump studs are 1/4 whitworth one end and cycle thread the other and are identical to the rocker cover studs. If the bike is anywhere near standard anyway.

Its a good thing to know because you can always make it home with a rocker stud missing when you nick it to replace the one you lost out of your sump  *smile*
Title: Re: Which Oil?
Post by: wortluck on 19.08. 2017 14:32
You're all way smarter than me when it comes to this sort of stuff. 

FYI, I use Mannol Safari 20w/50 in everything, and it seems to be fine (went for a 180m trip around North Yorks with a 10 minute stop and it didn't miss a beat).  Don't use a filter, it was rebuilt almost exactly as it came out the factory.  Sludge trap had virtually nothing in it (stood for 10 years but crankcases hadn't been apart for 20+).  Change oil every 1200 or annually and drain/clean bottom of oil tank thoroughly.  Only get a few bits of filings on magnetic sump plug.  I may fit an external filter at some point, but really don't see the need at present. Perhaps if the motor explodes in a ball of flame due to not doing so, it'll definitely change my mind.  Incidentally, if an external filter is fitted, do people extend the oil change intervals?