The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Zander on 24.07. 2017 18:53
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Today I've been introduced by the Black Art of attempting and failing abysmally, to locate the push rods and fit the rocker box. Having researched the subject on the forum, I gain absolutely no pleasure in the knowledge that others have had a similar experience. With a fair wind and a lot of luck, I reckon I should have it sorted by next Sunday!!
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Keep going Zander they will eventually drop in place while you are sipping your tea. *beer*
ELLIS
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Although not perfect, the pushrod comb tool is of big help IMO.
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I've been using the piggin comb all afternoon😄 I know it's one of those jobs that either falls into place first time, or takes for ever. Mines taking forever *pull hair out*
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I think this job depends a lot on your state of mind. I've had the buggers fight me for ages and other times they just go in!
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It's certainly not the easiest job and agree the comb does help, but sometimes can damage your gasket.
I find best to get someone to hold the comb or make a tempory mounting for it and locate from the timing side, ensure the tappet adjusters are screwed out and use a torch and some thin wire to finally locate the rods into position. Years ago I used only my fingers to locate the rods but old age has stopped that.
Then after all that pray you have no leaks, or it's off again.
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After refitting the cylinder head you have to take the blighters out again to retorque the head!
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Here's something that I did on our Ariel Forum to help a couple of lads having similar troubles with their Huntmasters.
Steve
http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5272&p=33455&hilit=Rocker+box#p33455
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http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5272&p=33455&hilit=Rocker+box#p33455 (http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5272&p=33455&hilit=Rocker+box#p33455)
Yeh, but: On the bench. No gasket and/or goo. Hole in the top of the Ariel rocker box. Comb locating bolts have been removed before fitting the top; what about cutting the heads off so you can remove them after the box is fitted.
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it helps if you turn the engine over so that the pushrods are as near even as you can get ( no one pushrod way up in the air)
I was reminded of this this afternoon - (so on the second attempt I got it with only one dislocated finger)
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i found the comb fairly unhelpful and did mess up the gaskets. but I'd still use it if anchored in place - little wooden blocks or similar amidst the fins (alloy head for me). lowering the cover down slowly while locating the pushrods using a 'Y' shaped piece of wire worked best for me. and a very good torch. and lots of swearing.
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Thanks one and all for the words of wisdom and encouragement on this topic. The battle will resume in the morning, bits of wood n wire to hand. One thing I DIDN'T do was to back off the tappets, so I'll try that first. *wink2*
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I found the comb to be useless. A bit of bent wire, a torch, a slim screwdriver and a huge dose of patience seem to work most of the time. Yes, backing off the adjusters is essential. A dab of grease in the rocker cups can help hold the pushrods in place once they are located.
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Thanks one and all for the words of wisdom and encouragement on this topic. The battle will resume in the morning, bits of wood n wire to hand. One thing I DIDN'T do was to back off the tappets, so I'll try that first. *wink2*
Are you using elastic bands to pull the rockers up as well as backing off the tappets?
Also, 2 rods should always drop in place without help as the rocker box does that for you (I've forgotten which two), this halves the problem.
Having said that, I just use the elastic band technique and a piece of wire to push the 2 errant rods into position and don't have problems (go on .....shoot me).
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Are you using elastic bands to pull the rockers up as well as backing off the tappets?
YES - do that. i forgot - that is the killer trick. and the 'Y' shaped piece of wire
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Kiwgf - if it doesn't drop on first thing this morning, I'm going to leave it and get on with fitting the clutch etc., then later I'll return to it. If I don't get it done later today, it won't be YOU I'll be shooting *smile*
Again, thanks for the tips re wire and elastic bands - maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and things can only get better. Always look on the bright side of life etc.. etc *yeah*
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I’ve mentioned this before – but I wonder now if maybe I just dreamt the whole thing …
There was a guy who used to write a regular one page column for Classic Bike magazine. I think his name was Andrew Wilson and most months he’d be writing of his travels and travails with his A10. Actually I think he may have had two of them. Within that, one month I’m sure he described a method by which he positioned the rods with very short sections of garden hose wedged in amongst them. This retained them in the correct position until the lid was on, after which he removed them (of course).
This must have been at least five years ago. Does no-one else here recollect it? Maybe it was an April edition.
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http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5272&p=33455&hilit=Rocker+box#p33455 (http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5272&p=33455&hilit=Rocker+box#p33455)
Yeh, but: On the bench. No gasket and/or goo. Hole in the top of the Ariel rocker box. Comb locating bolts have been removed before fitting the top; what about cutting the heads off so you can remove them after the box is fitted.
On Ariel's there's not a lot of room so photographing my spare engine allowed me to show the technique necessary to get the Rocker box over the pushrods. That's a problem that BSA'S may not suffer from.
Perhaps I should've mentioned that I use solid copper rocker box gaskets with a thin coating of Welseal which seems not to be upset by the comb.
The inspection hole is an advantage but only for peering into with a torch to check alls ok but providing I follow the procedure pushrods always line up. I'm guessing that folks who have trouble using the comb mustn't be checking the pushrods are located properly. They can all too easily fall out of the locating holes. Maybe even the comb's a bad one?
My Comb is a bit like my Satnav, I'd be lost without it!
Steve
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Without a doubt it is an evil job to do. Even worse as has happened to me if the dam thing leaks after a short while. Not one of Bert Hopwoods best ideas. Maybe I am just unlucky, but I have always without exception really struggled with this task. I would love to know how they did it on the production line. I have encountered some Mickey mouse engineering in my time, but the A10 rocker cover is the clear winner by miles. I cannot think of a worse job to do. Zander you have all my sympathy mate, I feel your pain.
John
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Well, after fixing the comb to a spark plug and removing the four corner studs and placing the two rear ones in the 'oles, I eventually got the rocker swine on.
The engine is now running after the rebuild. Always a tense moment! Prior to start up I pushed it up and down the drive in gear to get a bit of oil through, and was rewarded with a healthy flow very quickly once it started. Still got a couple of jobs to do and it'll then be back on the road. I sincerely hope, that apart from re torquing the head and tweaking the usual adjustments, I dont have to take it apart again!
Thanks to one and all for the encouragement and constructive comments *wink2*
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I have to be perfectly honest, firstly I have only ever once re torqued a head and it was not necessary anyway (always alloy heads for me) I have never blwon a head gasket in my life, always solid copper ones.
As for the rocker box, I dont release the tappets altho I do release the locknuts, I dont use a comb and I dont use elastic bands. I could literally take it on and off in my sleep I think I have done it that many times in 45 years.
Plonk it on, find which ones you have located instantly, normally 3 for me, hold the box by those 3 rockers keeping them tensed on the push rods, wiggle the last one in place and its job done.
10 to 15 minutes and that includes putting the 4 long bolts in and pulling them down.
Maybe I just have extremely long fingers or something
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Or maybe you are a jammy git! ;)
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I have to be perfectly honest, firstly I have only ever once re torqued a head and it was not necessary anyway (always alloy heads for me) I have never blwon a head gasket in my life, always solid copper ones.
As for the rocker box, I dont release the tappets altho I do release the locknuts, I dont use a comb and I dont use elastic bands. I could literally take it on and off in my sleep I think I have done it that many times in 45 years.
Plonk it on, find which ones you have located instantly, normally 3 for me, hold the box by those 3 rockers keeping them tensed on the push rods, wiggle the last one in place and its job done.
10 to 15 minutes and that includes putting the 4 long bolts in and pulling them down.
Maybe I just have extremely long fingers or something
Same with me. I've had mine off at least a dozen times. No comb or rubber bands, and I get three to drop right in. A little guidance and I get the final one in place. I've never had a problem, wrestled with them or cursed God while in process. Just have a knack for it I guess.
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Always found that the comb made the job more difficult. Much easier without.
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On several occasions I managed to get three located, but failed to coax the fourth into place. After leaving the job to get on with primary chain case etc., when I went back to it, I succeeded in a matter of minutes. It's the first time I've done it, so hopefully if I have to do it again, it won't be so troublesome. One can live in hope *smile*
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Regards re torqueing the head bolts down I took SRMs advice and don't. They said after the last 30lb torque they never go back to re torque the bolts and never had a gasket failure. Nor have I. *smile*
ELLIS
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when I went back to it, I succeeded in a matter of minutes.
I think most of us have had that experience - magic indeed
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Jammy git??? Me???
Possibly *smile*
BTWNeil you have mail
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Regards re torqueing the head bolts down I took SRMs advice and don't. They said after the last 30lb torque they never go back to re torque the bolts and never had a gasket failure. Nor have I.
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I will say I normally torque it down then leave it a day retorquing it before I put the rocker box on but in the past when for one reason or another I was in a rush I have just tightened it and put the rocker box straight on, it never seems to make any difference one way or another.
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Eating humble pie at the moment as I have chipped a rocker assy cup after refitting my rocker cover.
Spewin'!
I still think that a coat hanger wire beats the stupid comb.
Just check and recheck that all is seated while tightening up the box.
I''ll always use my inspection camera from now on to double and triple check.
Cheers all.
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I use an endoscope ( plugs into laptop) to confirm that the rods are positioned properly in the followers. There is a witness mark on one of the followers where the rod has sat outside of the follower cup sometime in the past ( probably why there was a bent valve when I got the bike ).Very handy tool for inspecting other hard to get to bits etc.
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I use an endoscope ( plugs into laptop) to confirm that the rods are positioned properly in the followers...
...Very handy tool for inspecting other hard to get to bits etc.
I've considered buying one of those but the sales video for the one I was looking at didn't really inspire confidence. What make have you got? How much was it? Where did you get it?
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Not quite sure what all the fuss is about, I have found the best method that saves all the agro, I think anyway, get the comb before fitting the gaskets, place it in position by locating the two screw holes, then bend the comb down so that it fits flat against the top fin, sort of z shape, then get some thin welding mole grips and you can clamp the comb so that it does not move. Once you have done this, get the push rods so they are pretty much even, almost the same height, you can never get them all the same but as close as possible, then just put the gaskets in place, get the rockers ruffly in the middle of the rocker box, then gently let the rocker box down and if you haven't moved anything trying to get the box in position you should be about there, put in the four studs and screw down until you feel the push rods locate, just leave enough room to get the comb out, once this is done you should be able to feel through the cover holes, to make sure they are in the correct position, then tighten down not tight, to make sure, you can then turn the engine over to make sure they are acting as they should.
I have tried and tested this method, I hope it helps you.
Regards TTJohn *smile*
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The model I have doesn't have a maker's name ( I know this doesn't instill confidence) but, it works well. Its labeled as a USB inspection camera, has an LED light fitted and also has a few bits and pieces like a small mirror etc. It was a present from my son, bought on Amazon for about £20. My son says they are all probably made in China for about this price. You can get them with a screen supplied but, that is the poor bit. Much better to use a laptop.Hope this is of use. Probably quite a selection on e-bay too. I take the point that some people have no difficulty with fitting push-rods, its probably a bit easier on my Huntmaster than the A10, but this tool just gives peace of mind. And as I said earlier useful for inspecting bores etc.
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I don't want to stray off track about endosopes- I bought one online and it didn't arrive, but was quickly refunded...But I have a backup that I've bought over the counter somewhere and use that for all the above stuff.
Back on pushrod locating; last time 10k + miles ago, I did it once was easy-peasy (just a few minutes), but then had to take the box off again for some reason and not-so-easy-peasy (about 20 minutes I think- I posted it here about '12/13)= had a bo-peep over the top of the rocker shafts.
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I've had a few bad experiences with endosopes.
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I've had a few bad experiences with endosopes.
*smile*
We don't need to know about your medical problems!
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I'll try and add some photo's for you all just to show you how to bend the comb.
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Hey it actually worked *smile*
(http://)
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Yes, that looks good John. Keeping the comb still appears to be the answer. I'll investigate this method next time I do pushrods. I'll be a bit nervous of clamping onto cast iron cylinder fins though! :-\
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I get a mate of mine to do it as I like to be on the road more than in the garage *smile* *bright idea* - plus the fact I occasionally suffer from rage issues when BSA's engineering defeats all logic. *pull hair out* *rant* *problem* Wonder how the workers in the factory did it so quickly (and probably with their eyes shut too) *respect*.
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I imagine they had a more sophisticated comb device.
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Wonder how the workers in the factory did it so quickly (and probably with their eyes shut too)
The fact that they were on a piece work (earnings directley related to how many they did per hour) probably was a good incentive. What I have always been curious about is this. From the BSA Instruction manual "After the machine has covered its first 250 miles When new or after decarbonising check the tightness of the cyclinder head bolts" So, I wonder how many new owners regreted their descision to buy a A10, having discovered the joy of refitting the rocker box cover? Or, for that matter how many who were in the know took a chance and did not bother. It was Donald Heather a director of AMC that once said that motorcyclists like nothing better than to spend Sunday mornings doing a decoke. That statement was made to Bert Hopwood who originally designed the Norton Jubilee to have all in one barrels and cylinder heads. Heather vetoed the idea and insisted on seperate barrels and heads, and that statement was his rational for doing so. If a new owner was supposed to check the cylinder head bolts for tightness did BSA include a set of rocker box gaskets in the purchase price of A10s and A7s? Hardly likely I would have thought. So, a brand new machine, and after 250 miles you are expected to buy spares. What a nice little earner for BSA and their dealers. Just imagine the purchaser of a new bike putting up with that today!
John
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...What I have always been curious about is this. From the BSA Instruction manual "After the machine has covered its first 250 miles When new or after decarbonising check the tightness of the cyclinder head bolts"...
Could this be an example of what we often see now as Protection of Arses; by this I mean a statement that is supposed to protect an organisation from blame: "We told you to do X, Y or Z. If you didn't do it it's not our responsibility"
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Heh, probably Greybeard - although I was never too good at following overly complicated instructions. I guess I'll decarbonise when I feel I need too, get an external oil filter if I feel I need too, etc. Otherwise, if I've clean oil, a tank of petrol, pumped up tyres and no loose nuts and bolts, it's the open road for me (providing the beast starts, of course!).
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Could this be an example of what we often see now as Protection of Arses; by this I mean a statement that is supposed to protect an organisation from blame: "We told you to do X, Y or Z. If you didn't do it it's not our responsibility"
Spot on Greybeard. If BSA thought that this was a critical procedure, bearing mind that a new bike would have been well within the warranty period at 250 miles, I would have thought that BSA dealers, should have been mandated to do it on behalf of BSA. It is reasonable for warranty conditions to require the new owner to check oils, and tyre pressures, but entirely unreasonable to expect the purchaser of a brand new motorcycle to take things apart, and to buy replacement parts as well. Of course it also gave BSA plenty of wriggle room. "A" "B" "C" being damaged during dismantling or reassembly was/is due to you the customer for being negligent and or incompetent so your warranty is now invalid mate.
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Could this be an example of what we often see now as Protection of Arses; by this I mean a statement that is supposed to protect an organisation from blame: "We told you to do X, Y or Z. If you didn't do it it's not our responsibility"
This is why we have an epidemic of so called 'Health & Safety' warnings these days. It's not really about health and safety; it's about fear of litigation.
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Again, spot on Greybeard - you're on a roll.....