The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Bikes, Pictures, Stories & more => Chat, Offtopic, Other Bikes, Meetings & Everything Else => Topic started by: A10 JWO on 03.08. 2017 16:07

Title: Nuts and bolts
Post by: A10 JWO on 03.08. 2017 16:07
I am doing a nut and bolt restore on my BSA . I appreciate that we can buy allen bolts in sets for the engine. However what is the least painful way of buying all the other nuts and bolts e.g shock  fixing bolts, mudguard fixing bolts, steering yoke bolts and the like. My local shop Leigh Classics ( Essex ) has closed for good. Buying the odd nut and bolt from ebay will cost a fortune. Thank you in anticipation. Colin
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Greybeard on 03.08. 2017 18:03
...I appreciate that we can buy allen bolts in sets for the engine
Personally I don't like to see allen screws on these engines. They are not original and they encourage casings to be overtightened which can then distort and leak.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: RoyC on 03.08. 2017 18:48
...I appreciate that we can buy allen bolts in sets for the engine
Personally I don't like to see allen screws on these engines. They are not original and they encourage casings to be overtightened which can then distort and leak.

I didn't realise that, what were the original fixings for the engine covers then ?
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: JulianS on 03.08. 2017 18:59
Cheese head screws.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Greybeard on 03.08. 2017 19:00
...what were the original fixings for the engine covers then ?
Slot head, slightly domed screws. They have a special name that eludes me at the moment.

Ok, in the olden days boy racers, (such as me) would change the screws cos we thought allen heads looked cool and as they can be tightened more they might stop oil pissing out. I've come to realise that tightening with a screwdriver is far kinder on these soft ali covers. Make sure that all high-spots have been removed from both faces, use a gasket and some sealant, (I prefer Blue Hylomar) and just tighten with a screwdriver. My machine is currently oil tight.  *whistle*
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Greybeard on 03.08. 2017 19:03
They are called Filister head screws
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Zander on 03.08. 2017 19:52
They are called Filister head screws

 Didn't know that, and never heard of the name.  You learn something every day,
Don't you?  Thanks for the edumacation, gents *wink2*
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: morris on 03.08. 2017 20:53
...I appreciate that we can buy allen bolts in sets for the engine
Personally I don't like to see allen screws on these engines. They are not original and they encourage casings to be overtightened which can then distort and leak.
To avoid overtightening always use an allen key with screwdriver handle .
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: kiwipom on 03.08. 2017 22:33
hi guys, Zander says:(Didn't know that, and never heard of the name.  You learn something every day,
Don't you)
. Yes it is a sad day when you don`t learn something new, cheers
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: duTch on 03.08. 2017 22:55
 I went a bit beresk for a time and bought stainless everything,  but have since concluded that stainless studs are more or less pointless, and plain or zinc plated with stainless nuts are much more sensible (until I drop a nut and a magnet won't find it  *conf*)
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Sluggo on 04.08. 2017 00:38
I LOVE stainless bling!   *yeah*

But keep in mind that MOST stainless fasteners are grade 2 (Soft) and not suitable for stressed fasteners or safety.  I find it amazing to see certain parts offered in stainless such as axles.

You can get high grade stainless fasteners and bolts but they tend to be specialized Industrial or aerospace and accordingly expensive.

I Buy certain types in bulk though and use them where not critical.  For example tail lamp assys, fender braces, and certain bracketry are just fine.  We made some tool holders and you can modify the bolts (Say 1/4" bolts) and sand off the markings and polish the heads and looks very attractive.   -OR-  In a lathe you can file down the edges and make your own domed head stainless bolts.  This does not take long at all I can do a box of 100 pretty quick.

I purchase boxs of 100 at a time for 1/4x1/4, 1/4x 1/2, 1/4 x 3/4  1/4 x 1 inch and so on and 5/16th, 3/8ths and others as needed.  Same for washers, AN washers and nuts. 
I LOVE stainless, but only where its suitable
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Black Sheep on 04.08. 2017 06:35
Using my bikes as everyday transport in all weathers (I'm off to the Western Isles in a few days. It'll rain.) I invariably opt for stainless fasteners when replacements are needed.
New BZP nuts and bolts corrode quicker than old cadmium plated ones and don't look the part either. So if you have to go non-original stainless seems the better option.
Rather looking forward to hammering the A10 through Glencoe. 
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: RoyC on 04.08. 2017 08:56
I LOVE stainless bling!   *yeah*

But keep in mind that MOST stainless fasteners are grade 2 (Soft) and not suitable for stressed fasteners or safety.  I find it amazing to see certain parts offered in stainless such as axles.

You can get high grade stainless fasteners and bolts but they tend to be specialized Industrial or aerospace and accordingly expensive.

Taken from -  http://stainlessbits.com/link5.html

Myths About Strength
When discussing stainless steel fasteners, it is inevitable that someone is going to remind you that a stainless bolt is not strong enough to use in stress applications. This is only a partial truth, depending on the grade of steel used.

Just as standard steel comes in various strength grades, so does stainless steel. The high strength fasteners offered here at StainlessBits.com are as strong or stronger than grade 8 hardened steel. High strength stainless bolts can be safely used for suspension and brake systems, as engine head bolts and in virtually any application requiring grade 8 steel or the metric equivalent.

In some cases, high strength studs are required for caliper, engine or other stress applications. Due to the many variations among vehicles, exact substitutes are usually unavailable in high strength stainless. StainlessBits.com fabricates special length/thread studs from 17-4 high strength stainless steel rod stock. When included in kits, these items will be specially tagged. Custom studs can also be fabricated for your individual application.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: JulianS on 04.08. 2017 09:22
I have bought many many stainless items for my A10 over the many years of use. Some very good quality and some extremely poor.

Worst example being stainless head bolts, just the 4 ones with exposed heads. They stretched when head torqued and could not be torqued to 30 ft lbs. On removal they had necked. Complete waste of money.

No doubt if they had been made from an appropriate stainless there would not have been an issue but unfortunately many suppliers do not include the grade of material in their advertisements - just check ebay for BSA stainless to see.

So it is  buyer beware with stainless.

Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: bsa-bill on 04.08. 2017 09:24
Quote
Filister head screws

Note NOT the same as "Cheese head" which I have seen sold for timing case
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Greybeard on 04.08. 2017 09:26

Rather looking forward to hammering the A10 through Glencoe
Lucky bugga!
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Tomcat on 04.08. 2017 09:28
I am doing a nut and bolt restore on my BSA . I appreciate that we can buy allen bolts in sets for the engine. However what is the least painful way of buying all the other nuts and bolts e.g shock  fixing bolts, mudguard fixing bolts, steering yoke bolts and the like. My local shop Leigh Classics ( Essex ) has closed for good. Buying the odd nut and bolt from ebay will cost a fortune. Thank you in anticipation. Colin
[/quot



We have Classic Fasteners Down Under for bulk packs of BSCY fasteners, must be someone in the UK?
I keep a basic kit of BSCY nuts and short bolts, (washers can be bought at the local discount hardware). When I rebuilt the Super Rocket, I worked at one area at a time and as I ordered the parts for that area ordered the fasteners. 1st port of call was always Priory Magnetos.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: bsa-bill on 04.08. 2017 09:32
Quote
Rather looking forward to hammering the A10 through Glencoe

Large land owners used to enclose parts of their estates in walls, got one or two around here, it's very difficult  to run alongside a walled section and not check that the Campbell's are working properly *smile*
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Sluggo on 04.08. 2017 10:26

Taken from -  http://stainlessbits.com/link5.html

Myths About Strength
When discussing stainless steel fasteners, it is inevitable that someone is going to remind you that a stainless bolt is not strong enough to use in stress applications. This is only a partial truth, depending on the grade of steel used.

Just as standard steel comes in various strength grades, so does stainless steel. The high strength fasteners offered here at StainlessBits.com are as strong or stronger than grade 8 hardened steel. High strength stainless bolts can be safely used for suspension and brake systems, as engine head bolts and in virtually any application requiring grade 8 steel or the metric equivalent.

In some cases, high strength studs are required for caliper, engine or other stress applications. Due to the many variations among vehicles, exact substitutes are usually unavailable in high strength stainless. StainlessBits.com fabricates special length/thread studs from 17-4 high strength stainless steel rod stock. When included in kits, these items will be specially tagged. Custom studs can also be fabricated for your individual application.
[/quote]

That is very true, but do these companies sell their fasteners with certs?   Valid claims of such materials come with manuf. certifications.  My wife is a production and logistics manager with a manufacturer locally.  Bar stock comes with certs, records are kept of heat treat or annealing as well as conditioning such as plating. (parkerizing,Chrome,  Zinc, cad,Anodizing, gold etc)
She works with a product buyer who spends all their time making sure the materials coming into the shop are on time for each job as well as the proper materials.
Customers range from sporting goods (Including mountain climbing gear, not the place to wonder about material quality) to firearms and weapons, to brake manufacturers for trucks and cars,.

You can find many such fasteners with specific markings on them that SHOULD indicate their grading and ratings but you cannot trust such markings as there is a lot of bogus materials out there.   When Aerospace jobs come in, the raw materials are certed, the steps follow ISO and other international stds (All the stds out there would require hours of education).

Most hardware stores and bulk fasteners suppliers are all grade 2.  Be happy to show anyone with a rockwell tester how you verify the grading..  (I am certified in aerospace NDT=Non Destructive testing)  I also worked as an Inspector and various positions at a Aerospace manufacturer and our customers were GE, Pratt & Whitney, Rolls Royce Aerospace, FIAT Aerospace, SNECMA and Boeing, and a variety of military defense contractors.

For a real education for the lay person, Read this document and use this as a reference for your hardware needs.  (I know some of the regional FASTENAL reps and good company, good products)

See: https://www.fastenal.com/content/documents/FastenalTechnicalReferenceGuide.pdf

For the home workshop and or aspiring gearhead, a indispensible tool is this reference book, My 2 copies are much older editions but I keep this in my flight line tool box and in the workshop.
Helicopter and flightline hand signals for marshalling acft would be outside the scope of most peoples needs, but the hardware guide, proper torque techniques and proper application of fittings alone makes this book invaluable for anyone.  Its literally a education and technical godsend in one book.  No mechanic should be without one.

See:  https://www.amazon.com/Aviation-Mechanic-Handbook-Standard/dp/1560278986

Used copies under $10 and $15 new. Such a deal!  Best money you can spend I promise.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: coater87 on 04.08. 2017 14:25
 Sluggo,

 These are 60-70 year old motorcycles with barely enough ass to pull themselves off slippery rocks.

 I dont know about anyone else, but I personally dont need certifications of materials or aircraft grade bolts to hold the toolbox on.

 Wood screws were what was holding most of the engine covers on before- and that worked. I doubt those wood screws came with "certs"
  from the local hardware store. *smile*

 Lee
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: coater87 on 04.08. 2017 14:29
Quote
Filister head screws

Note NOT the same as "Cheese head" which I have seen sold for timing case

 I had trouble finding fillister head screws, except for the 5/16 ones. All my 1/4 inch are cheese heads.

 I had trouble believing how hard it was to find correct case screws. *conf*

 Lee
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Sluggo on 04.08. 2017 19:04
Quote "I dont know about anyone else, but I personally dont need certifications of materials or aircraft grade bolts to hold the toolbox on."

Correct!  I made that point that the majority of fasteners in stainless at most suppliers and hardware stores are grade 2 and adequate for many uses. RoyC posted some material from a website claiming their fasterners were not the garden variety grade 2 material.  I was making the point however that *IF* a company wanted to state that, there IS a procedure commonly understood in the world of manufacturing to back that up.
Does not mean we all need Inconel or 17-4 fasteners, but you should be aware of the difference.  Many of the castings we made for some of our aerospace customers were 17-4 and some proprietary blends but that material is ALSO very expensive.  Totally overkill for your tool box.  (I Had a collection of hinges that were designed for the Space station in 17-4, these were scrap but they were lovely when polished and I used them on some custom made wooden cabinetry at our old house)
Nobody needs to over think this, but should be aware of the details of hardware out there today. But dont trust a claimed rating or cert unless you can verify.  There literally is a tidal wave of counterfeit materials out there.
That was the point.
Heck, even the suppliers for old British motorcycles & cars are having some real problems with counterfeit materials and its amazing to me anyone bothers faking obscure brands parts.
Bicycle companies are not immune, NGK Spark plugs has been having problems and even reputable dealers have trouble knowing the difference.

 
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: RichardL on 16.07. 2018 13:27
Cheese head screws.

I'm here on "Nuts and Bolts" for a different reason, but, while I'm here:

Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: RichardL on 16.07. 2018 13:37
Looking at engine-to-frame stud/bolt kits. A couple of questions:

1. Is there a consensus (or individual opinion) regarding studs vs. bolts? I'm inclined to go all studs for the '57 A7 for originality (not a total necessity, but why not). I recognize the convenience of bolts, but is there any other functional benefit I might be missing?

2. Any recommendations (or warnings) for sourcing a kit? Ebay seems to be the go-to for selection and price. I have had successful dealings with some of the sellers carying the kits.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Rex on 16.07. 2018 15:03
Stainless fastenings are OK for the run-of-the-mill items, but for specialised or highly stressed components I think I'd rather trust the metallurgists at BSA than some Taiwan sweat shop owners' take on what they ought to be.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: duTch on 16.07. 2018 15:19
 I would class a 'stud' as double ended with a coarse thread that screws into a frame or casting-whatever and a finer (but not necessarily so) thread the other end to be used with a nut on the outside for final and effective tightening, where a 'through-bolt, (which may have a better name'), has same threads either end, which I suggest would be better in some situations where it gives the option of undoing either end (sure as though, the one you want to loosen will stay tight *conf*).
 **Above 'through-bolts' and fine stud threads in BSC .

 I can't offer a supplier, as I bought from a now defunct entity (bought out by a well known and not so popular supplier), a 'kit'  that I was fairly disappointed with for various reasons (slightly wrong lengths for my needs), but may work for you.

 As I've already mentioned, stainless studs or through-bolts  are pointless, better with zinc or nickle plated and stainless nuts.

  Hope that's some help; I think Motalia is a go-to place??

Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: RogerSB on 16.07. 2018 16:00
BSA A10 stainless fastenings - Barleycorn Engineering in Norfolk:-

http://www.barleycorn.co.uk/index.php?route=common/home

Below is an extract from an invoice from last year giving an idea of prices.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Angus on 16.07. 2018 17:37
I second the recommendation for barleycorn. I went to see him to pickup my bits (just up the road) and he was very helpful and friendly, even fitter the form oil seals to the holders for me.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: coater87 on 16.07. 2018 21:03
 I have very few fasteners on the bike that are not from Barleycorn.

 The only ones I had any problem with at all was the stainless badge screws. The heads were shaped differently than the badge recess. Because everything else from Barleycorn was very good, I am going to say the badges were made wrong.

 Lee
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: muskrat on 16.07. 2018 21:12
I got the cyl base studs & nuts, crank case studs & nuts and engine & gearbox bolts/studs & nuts in SS from Motalia. I think the only prob was one or two studs were a little short.
Cheers
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: RogerSB on 16.07. 2018 21:49
I believe Barleycorn Engineering (Simon) manufactures their own parts and being a small company dedicated to the preservation of our classic motorcycles means you get high quality.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Colsbeeza on 17.07. 2018 03:19
My Golden Flash (on which I did my first running-in ride two days ago) has stainless fasteners all over. *help* Some are safety critical, such as the fork bottom studs, front brake plate retaining nut etc. I purchased these in 1992 from Thoroughbred Stainless of East Sussex in UK. They were BSA-specific, so I assumed that they were made of the required grade. Certainly, I never felt that any of the fasteners were soft. Does any member have any experience of the quality of Thoroughbred Stainless fasteners or the people who ran the business.? The invoice was signed by Tony Clegg. I am sure that Thoroughbred does not exist today, but someone may know.
Or should I fit a speed limiter to about 30mph.?? *grins* *grins*
Colin
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: ellis on 17.07. 2018 05:09
Hi Colsbeeza.

I'm not sure if this is the company you are after, but when I Google Thoroughbred stainless fastenings it comes up with D Middleton & sons who have been in business for over 30 years.


 Address:
 Unit 5
 Lady Ann Mills
 Lady Ann Road
 Batley
 West Yorkshire
 WF17 0PS

I hope you find this useful.   *smile*

ELLIS
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: muskrat on 17.07. 2018 09:36
G'day Col.
The nut would be OK use loctite, the studs I would replace next tyre change. You won't be riding it like you stole it will you?
Cheers
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Colsbeeza on 17.07. 2018 12:42
Thanks Ellis and Muskrat,
I will have a think about which nuts I should replace to be sure- to be sure!
Someone may also know a bit about Thoroughbred.
Colin
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: JulianS on 17.07. 2018 12:45
had a lot from Thoroughbred back in the 1980s ad 1990s, wheel spindles, fork oil seal holders, swinging arm spindle various fasteners. Some of the fasteners stretched - the fork cap bolts and gear lever bolt - but the rest still OK as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Slymo on 18.07. 2018 01:27
I really like original fasteners on a bike but you simply can’t get whitworth hex here in NZ. 7/16 and 13mm and 1” are a reasonably close approximation but for any of the others you have to find a milling machine. Fortunately cycle taps and dies are still easy to obtain as are whitworth so I generally make my own and have them zinc plated cadmium being something you can only get done if you have an aero industry connection. I’ve been very happy with the zinc finish though and in six weeks I defy anyone to tell the difference.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Sluggo on 18.07. 2018 01:49
I really like original fasteners on a bike but you simply can’t get whitworth hex here in NZ. 7/16 and 13mm and 1” are a reasonably close approximation but for any of the others you have to find a milling machine. Fortunately cycle taps and dies are still easy to obtain as are whitworth so I generally make my own and have them zinc plated cadmium being something you can only get done if you have an aero industry connection. I’ve been very happy with the zinc finish though and in six weeks I defy anyone to tell the difference.

Many others are in the same boat,  Especially when it comes to specialty hardware. As I said earlier, I really like using Stainless fasteners and hardware.  And modify some to remove the markings, round the dome on the heads or polish them.  My wife is mgmt and worked her way up in a Machine shop that can easily replicate any hardware and does in great quantity for a variety of clients, but its very expensive in small batches.  Would require large sums of money to commission hardware kits and would be slow movers to sell.

Truth is, most Brit bike owners are cost conscious and wont buy premium when cheap stuff is out there even if its to their detriment. So, quality hardware with known properties and specs dont sell well compared to cheap knock offs.

When it comes to plating some obsess about cad plating, but fewer and fewer vendors can and will do Cad, even fewer who will deal with some guy with a bike restoration.  Cad plating can come in a variety of colors and finishes, most tend to be very yellow tinged, Not easy to find someone doing Cad in the correct shade and appearance.

I have done a lot of fasteners in Zinc, I have a local plater that does a decent job and the color is good, plus Zinc has  little bit of lubricating properties compared to others,,

I have some inventory from another shop that did a lot of theirs in Nickel,, Looks great but is a pain to work with, It is thicker than other platings and tends to foul threads.

All of the above are only as good as your prep work, Fixing threads, wrench marks, and texturing the metal is critical (PLUS CLEAN!)

*** KEEP IN MIND***  Threads CUT with a tap or die are not very strong.  proper threads are ROLLED or formed.

If someone wants to commision their own fastener line...Ask for Linda. (Logistics lead, Master scheduler)

See: https://enochmachining.com

" "Since 1949, Enoch has been a full-service provider of precision-machining services, specializing in close tolerance milled and turned components. Over the years, our customers have relied on us to provide a complete parts solution. With over 80 automated and 50 secondary machines, we can start with prototypes and increase quantities as needed, all under one roof."
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: mikeb on 18.07. 2018 01:52
Quote
you simply can’t get whitworth hex here in NZ
Symo british spares in nelson and british parts in grey lynn both carry some. or stock up from the uk - barlyeycorn. motalia, or even nookie's nutts for bags of cheapies. postage adds up but cheaper from the uk than aus / usa
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Sluggo on 18.07. 2018 02:36
I meant to add my Tony story.  I have a guy locally I have known many years, we seem to end up in in close proximity despite significant differences in net worth.  Tony runs a Aerospace company nearby in manufacturing components.  Smart guy, but a bit of a nutter.

He is originally from Yorkshire and apprenticed back in the day at some place called "Crabtrees?" (I may have the name wrong) and he had some great stories how old the company was and how they work with the youngsters teaching them a trade.   

I am hoping one day he gets out some old photos, because it would be cool to see him back in the day, He was also quite a brawler back in the day I am told.   Anyrate Tony told me about
"Balled up Ally"   Which is kind of funny because many of us joke with him that he does not say ALUMINUM right (inside joke)   But he said back in the day  as a young brit bike rider you spent all week Polishing your bike and showing it off on the weekend, And if it was really nice he said they would say its "Balled up"
or Balled up ally,,,  He rode a Goldstar, And said a popular thing to do with machinists apprentices would take your fillister head screws and machine the ends so when snugged up EVERY screw had the slot straight up and down.  Seems a funny thing to do, But now I look for it on bikes, Only seen one done like that.

Maybe its just the rantings from a nutter who had too many amber ales but it seems like something he would do.  He also claims he attended the live show for the WHO at Leeds so likes to claim "I am on the record too" Try and I might I cant tell if he is or not.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: RogerSB on 18.07. 2018 18:53
And if it was really nice he said they would say its "Balled up" or Balled up ally,,, 
Hi Sluggo,
In the UK military we would say  to 'bull' was to clean and polish it very shiny  - for no purpose other than for it to be clean and shiny. . . i.e. Bull the toecaps of your boots, so maybe he was saying 'bulled up ally' (meaning of course very, very shiny alluminium *smile*).
In the Royal Marines we always had to clean and polish everything to perfection (i.e. bull it). I've seen coal in bunkers painted white and patches on grass painted green in preparation for an inspection of a VIP.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Sluggo on 18.07. 2018 19:32
thanks,,, That is very probable and I got it wrong,, Ill double check next time I see him.  I am also familiar with the military side, One of the military job skills that will get you fired in the civilian world is managing to disappear whenever there is menial work to be performed.  The US calls is "Shamming" or to Sham, or "Skate" or skater for someone evading work details.  I did not have much interaction with British troops despite a brief training deployment to Boscomb down. Lakenheath and Upper Heyford were 90% US Troops but I did spend 2 weeks with the Australians Royal 1st squadron as they had F-111s and man,, Those guys were something else.
Very competent on the flight line, but epic drinkers.   I could NEVER compete with them on the drinking
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: RichardL on 18.07. 2018 21:54
While you guys have been spinnin' tales, I've placed my first order with Barleycorn. Hoping the shipping is a little gentler than quoted, but expecting to be pleased, regardless.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Nuts and bolts
Post by: Colsbeeza on 20.07. 2018 05:34
Thanks Julian,
That is great feedback re Throughbred. I will replace the fork cap nuts.
Colin