The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: Greybeard on 27.08. 2017 12:10

Title: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 27.08. 2017 12:10
This is a bee-in-the-bonnet subject for me since seeing a motorcyclist ride into the side of a car that saw his, (forgotten) left indicator flashing and pulled out in front of him.

Whenever I take part in club ride-outs I see other riders forget to cancel their winker.

I will not fit flashers to my motorcycle. I will continue to use hand signals, (even though half the car drivers on the road find it too hard to operate that little lever!).

If you install indicators on your motorcycles please connect them up to a Klaxon to remind you they are still flashing!

Is there a timer device that could cancel the indicator after a few seconds?

This might be good. 12v though:
https://goo.gl/8sjF1D
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 27.08. 2017 12:56
Hi GB
Quote
Is there a timer device that could cancel the indicator after a few seconds?

Yes there is, I remember reading about them on another forum
A simple electronic bleeper can be wired in as a warning
Or wire two push buttons left and right that will only operate the flashers while the button is pressed

To my mind with modern traffic I can see the benefits of indicators over hand signals

One of the riders on out Irish National Rally last week had flashing armbands on each wrist that increased his chances with hand signals  *wink2*

John
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: duTch on 27.08. 2017 14:51

 I know it's been flogged a bit, I'm I'm with GB- I only ever had one bike with dinkas and generally forgot to cancel them.

 I also for a long time was not in the habit of hand signals but being in town more I've got it the habit, but in a more 'assertive' way (me>there / you NOT >there kinda thing)

 A couple of months ago, I briefly saw a rider with rabbit/Elk ears on his hat that flashed, looked silly but probably effective
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 27.08. 2017 16:04
...wire two push buttons left and right that will only operate the flashers while the button is pressed
Good idea!
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: rocker21 on 29.08. 2017 14:36
many years ago i had a BMW R75/5 that i bought from Gus khun motorcycles in London and that was brilliant as the indicator circuit was connected to the spedo, and after a short distance they canceled, you only had a a push button on each side of the handle bar  once pressed it started the link to the spedo  and then canceled,  a very simple but effective system, why this can't be done now i don't know especially with the modern electronic spedo's that smiths now make , would make a very good safety feature.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: RoyC on 29.08. 2017 15:26
...wire two push buttons left and right that will only operate the flashers while the button is pressed
Good idea!
Perhaps adapt two cutout buttons, one on either side.
When someone with more electrical knowhow than me works it out, post a wiring diagram.  *computer*
Roy.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 29.08. 2017 17:14
Have a look at this schematic circuit I found on line. If you extended each of the 'Indicator Switch' contacts out to press buttons you'd have what we need. As long as the button is held the indicator on that side will flash. Hold them both for Hazard Warning indicators!

Cheap timer modules such as this one: https://goo.gl/cNWgWu (https://goo.gl/cNWgWu) could be added if required to avoid having to hold the button down.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: RoyC on 29.08. 2017 20:03
Have a look at this schematic circuit I found on line. If you extended each of the 'Indicator Switch' contacts out to press buttons you'd have what we need. As long as the button is held the indicator on that side will flash. Hold them both for Hazard Warning indicators!

Cheap timer modules such as this one: https://goo.gl/cNWgWu (https://goo.gl/cNWgWu) could be added if required to avoid having to hold the button down.

Like this ?

Wouldn't that just short out the circuit ?
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: coater87 on 29.08. 2017 21:40
 Thats not the right type of timing module.

 Whats going to happen with that is you push down the button, the timer starts timing, once it reaches its preset (by you) time delay, it will turn on the bulb. It will not blink like you want.

 Lee

Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 29.08. 2017 22:54
This maybe. If that switch represents the standard toggle switch I've just extended the contacts out to the two handlebar switches. Would only flash the winkers as long as the buttons were pressed so add a timer module, (may need two) wired so that its relay is self latching for a set period, (say 5 seconds?).
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 30.08. 2017 08:36
Been pondering this. You would need to be able to cancel the indicator so would need to arrange for timer to be stopped when required.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Rex on 30.08. 2017 09:32
Years back I had a Yamaha XS250, and despite being probably the worst Japanese motorcycle ever made, it had timed self-cancelling indicators, so rather than reinventing circular transport devices, how about checking out Ebay or bike breakers for a timer unit?
{I'm guessing other Yahamas of this age (early 1980s) probably had the same unit fitted!}
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: RoyC on 30.08. 2017 09:33
This maybe. If that switch represents the standard toggle switch I've just extended the contacts out to the two handlebar switches.

Aah, I was thinking about using the chrome cut out switches, I can see now that a different kind of switch is required.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Peter in Aus on 30.08. 2017 10:01
Why are retro fitted indicators more dangerous than ones fitted from new? *fight*
Peter
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Black Sheep on 30.08. 2017 10:58
Because you are so used to not having them, it's easy to forget you now have them. With a new bike, everything is unfamiliar so using indicators is part of getting used to the new bike.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 30.08. 2017 10:58
Why are retro fitted indicators more dangerous than ones fitted from new? *fight*
Peter
Because we are all about motorcycles that didn't have winkers fitted from new.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Peter in Aus on 30.08. 2017 11:32
But that doesn't make them any more danger's! *conf*
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: bikerbob on 30.08. 2017 16:05
I have an  A7 without indicators and an A65 which when I converted to 12 volts I fitted indicators the flasher unit emits quite a loud noise which seems to be timed with the indicator bulb I also have a small flashing light fitted to the top of the headlight and I have never failed to cancel because of the noise emitted by the flasher unit. I have to say that I feel much safer with the A65 than the A7  without indicators.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 30.08. 2017 18:00
I have to say that I feel much safer with the A65 than the A7  without indicators.

Feeling safer is dangerous.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: worntorn on 30.08. 2017 21:55
I installed this solid state self cancelling module and indicators on the 47 Vincent. Works great. It is also the flash unit.


I used the full pentastar xp unit on the new build 1360 Vincent. One module controls brake light function, turn indicators and running lights all in a tiny biscuit about half the size of a small chocolate bar .

Glen

http://www.signaldynamics.com/self-canceling-turn-signal-module/
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: olev on 01.09. 2017 02:39
I'm for indicators if you ride your bike on the road. the positives more than cancel out the negatives
These days motorists use indicators and most have no idea of hand signals. If you want to ride safely in modern traffic you must let people know what you are about. Modern cars out accelerate and outbrake old bikes about 4 to 1.
My only machine going at present is a 62 cotton vulcan with a greeves motor.
If my hand is taken off the throttle going into a corner the thing chain snatches and kangaroos whatever gear you're in.
It's not pretty.
Also the front brake is not available if you are waving your arm in the air.
Fitting indicators removed all that excitement.
I fitted a warning light in the headlight shell and extended the lever about 25mm so its easy to use. After a week or so you learn to cancel.
The same setup will be fitted to the a7 if it ever gets finished.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 01.09. 2017 09:44
My riding style is much more careful than it used to be so turning is not done rapidly. I have slight friction set on the twist-grip so it closes slowly allowing me to take my right hand off the grip.
By the way, in the UK car drivers seem to be increasingly failing to use their indicators.


The reason I re-posted this topic is because I was taking part in a classic bike ride and saw several occasions when riders forgot to cancel their signals. I was praying some twat wouldn't pull out in front of them!
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: a101960 on 01.09. 2017 10:24
Quote
By the way, in the UK car drivers seem to be increasingly failing to use their indicators.
The problem is that new drivers are not taught how to drive, they are taught how to pass their driving test which is a different thing entirely. These days people do not slow down and prepare to stop if neccersary at round abouts or junctions. Something my driving instructor drummed into me all those years ago when I learned to drive. Mind you it does not help that on many modern cars the indicators are set so far back at the front that in daylight you cannot see them even if they are being used. I treat all junctions with a great deal of caution, and I won't even mention the ar**soles that can see you coming and still pull out as you approach. It makes no difference if you are on a bike or driving your car, or maybe its just me (paranoid?) but it happens all the time. I think that it makes no difference if indicators are fitted or not these days most drivers do not take any notice of signals of any description.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 01.09. 2017 10:52
I think that it makes no difference if indicators are fitted or not these days most drivers do not take any notice of signals of any description.
So, exercise extreme caution!  *sad2*
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: bsa-bill on 01.09. 2017 10:57
Quote
The problem is that new drivers are not taught how to drive, they are taught how to pass their driving test which is a different thing entirely.

Yep, I get ear bashed for using indicators too much, but I remember my driving instructor ( used to be  an Army driving instructor ) advising me that indicators are DIRECTION indicators not right of way indicators and should be used to inform other drivers of your intentions, and that's what I still do
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 01.09. 2017 11:31
...I get ear bashed for using indicators too much, but I remember my driving instructor ( used to be  an Army driving instructor ) advising me that indicators are DIRECTION indicators not right of way indicators and should be used to inform other drivers of your intentions, and that's what I still do

Same here; it's just habit. I passed my driving test fifty years ago.

Who is ear-bashing you; Her indoors? My wife learnt to drive in more recent history than me and she was taught to not signal unless there was following traffic. "What about pedestrians?" I say, and "What about that bloke that you cannot see, that's just about to come out of his driveway?" I say.

Trouble is, if you tell road users that sometimes they need not signal they will think it's ok to never signal, (sort of a 'Give em an an inch, and they'll take a mile' thing)
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Black Sheep on 01.09. 2017 13:47
The only thing you can deduce if you see an indicator flashing is that the bulb works. Any other conclusion is dangerous - potentially deadly.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Steve.Carter on 01.09. 2017 17:09
...I get ear bashed for using indicators too much, but I remember my driving instructor ( used to be  an Army driving instructor ) advising me that indicators are DIRECTION indicators not right of way indicators and should be used to inform other drivers of your intentions, and that's what I still do

Same here; it's just habit. I passed my driving test fifty years ago.

Who is ear-bashing you; Her indoors? My wife learnt to drive in more recent history than me and she was taught to not signal unless there was following traffic. "What about pedestrians?" I say, and "What about that bloke that you cannot see, that's just about to come out of his driveway?" I say.

Trouble is, if you tell road users that sometimes they need not signal they will think it's ok to never signal, (sort of a 'Give em an an inch, and they'll take a mile' thing)

A good driving instructor will teach the times when using indicators can be counter productive. Like waiting to pull out a Layby when only a couple of cars are approaching, much better to wait till they've passed by rather then watch the first one slow with the other one getting impatient and overtaking the first one!  learning by rote in these situations can be dangerous.

Steve
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 01.09. 2017 18:13
A good driving instructor will teach the times when using indicators can be counter productive. Like waiting to pull out a Layby when only a couple of cars are approaching, much better to wait till they've passed by rather then watch the first one slow with the other one getting impatient and overtaking the first one!  learning by rote in these situations can be dangerous.
Yes, I agree with that.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: RoyC on 01.09. 2017 18:17
I was always taught, check mirrors and indicate your intention (hand signals) before changing direction.
That was in the days of the semaphore indicators, winkers hadn't been invented.

Roy.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: bikerboy on 03.09. 2017 23:52
I have never had a bike with indicators and my approach is to trust nobody whether they are indicating or not. Get some eyes in the back of your head and both sides that will give you about a 20% chance of avoiding the modern day driver.

Incidentally I do know that if its a BMW, Audi or Mercedes they do have right of way no matter what and everybody else must instantly get out of their way no matter what  *smile*

Me cynical? Never
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Peter in Aus on 04.09. 2017 09:01

Incidentally I do know that if its a BMW, Audi or Mercedes they do have right of way no matter what and everybody else must instantly get out of their way no matter what  *smile*

Me cynical? Never
[/quote]
Its Volvo over here *fight*
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: tinu on 10.09. 2017 14:52
Just saw this in our local bicycle shop.. it stops at a certain time by itself ( I think 45 sec)
https://www.cycl.co.uk
cheers tinu
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: cyclobutch on 11.09. 2017 15:42
I do recollect Yamahas of the late 70s being fitted with a cancellation device, ass noted somewhere above. Not sure why it didn't catch on, nor how it might have worked? You might presume a combination of distance and duration, but that sounds a bit sophisticated for the time.

And you do see cars with them left on some times. And you have to wonder how they miss that, sitting in there with not a lot else to do or look at. On bikes, group rides do seem to bring about more forgetfulness. To be honest I hate the self cancelling in cars and would sooner have to do it manually.

When I was ringing Carol Nash to advise of modifications to my Bantam 'Piecrust Racer' the one thing the lad on the other end of the 'phone couldn't get over was that it had no indicators (the bike now has no lights at all). Weird.

My Sportster has a button on each grip to operate the indicator on that side. They're a rocker type. If you one on and then operate the other side then they are both now off. Then when you switch one side (off) the other side comes on. Really weird.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: duTch on 11.09. 2017 18:15

 If I didn't already say it, I only had one bike with innidactors, and constantly forgot to cancel....just a few days ago, I pulled up beside a guy and asked 'are you going right ?', and he said yes I'm going well.... *conf* realized he had an accent and told him his inicktaker is on...mind you it's the kinda crap answer I'd give too...on a good day *smile*

 Like has been said;
Quote
The only thing you can deduce if you see an indicator flashing is that the bulb works. Any other conclusion is dangerous - potentially deadly.

 Totally agree- on more than one occasion, I've come up behind trailers of various kinds in the wrong lane for what I think they're doing, and doesn't take long to see that the lights are all F*****d up with mainly the indicarckers wired opposite *problem* *bash*

 when I was a kid we had a farm truck (late 40's Chevrolet I reckon), that had on the drivers door, a 4' lever with a 'hand' on the end that the driver could swing up to turn, and the hand also pivoted up to indicate stopping...probably more effective than modern stuff.
 (My Ma had to take us to the bus in that one day when the car didn't start, and the brakes weren't working- which she didn't realise until half way down the last half mile straight with the bus at the gate... *eek*...took a while to live that down  *pull hair out*
 The lever on the door was no good that day*smile*






Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: worntorn on 11.09. 2017 23:43
Indicators are as imperfect as the operator, but they do increase safety in general.
Imagine multiple lanes of freeway traffic going warp speed by or thru some big city, exits and on ramps everywhere, all hand signals with cars and trucks flying across lanes as they must do in such places. It would be deadly.
I try hard to avoid busy places, but every now and then you find yourself in it for a bit.

At times like that the indicators have helped me greatly, especially when in the UK where drivers pay some attention to motorcycles and indicators. Not so great here at home, but the indicators still help. When I ride the BSA ( no indicators) scary things that shouldn't happen are standard, every ride.
Glen
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: kiwipom on 12.09. 2017 00:14
hi guys, indicators or not defensive driving is always needed especially on two wheels, cheers 
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Peter in Aus on 12.09. 2017 02:47
I like my indicators but I must admit you need an effective reminder that they are on, I was thinking that i might hook a ing coil to the seat so as to turn on after say 30 sec *bash* you wouldn't leave it on the second time *eek*
On a more serious note I was wondering if it would be possible to have hooked into the helmet earphone so as when flashers are on (helmets with earphones are becoming more common place) it would beep, it would have to come automatically (Bluetooth or some thing like that) other wise you would forget to turn it on, food for thought.
Peter
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Sluggo on 12.09. 2017 07:36
I find this whole topic baffling, and read thru it in disbelief.  Are you guys for real??? 

If you guys are having difficulty operating a motor vehicle safely then perhaps its time to hang up the helmet and keys.  I also find it amusing/disturbing on a forum for bikes last built in 63 and earlier that some or most of you dont have OTHER motorcycles, including modern mounts.

I do readily acknowledge and most MC safety experts recommend that when switching mounts to exercise caution and perhaps familiarize yourself in a parking lot or sparsely populated area before  entering higher traffic areas.  Cornering, stopping, and riding techniques all need adjustment switching from bike to bike as well as practice. Its also important to refresh your skills when you dont ride every day.
  Its a common problem in my part of the world where many of the vintage MC clubs have rides and you have riders who are rusty in skills, or riding a vintage bike when the day before they were on a modern one, or,,,, bikes that sit for long periods with infrequent service all add up to crashes.

To address issues more at home for me, in the western US States it is illegal to operate a vehicle without turn signals after dark. Period.

Do people do so? Sure.. But each time you do a police officer can cite you.
To be fair: "A gentleman does not motor about after dark" Joseph Lucas

The reality of modern traffic is they are all distracted and self absorbed. Assume ALL other vehicles on the road are out to kill you and proceed accordingly.  (Cell phones are the #1 culprit. But I had a friend ran over on his MC by a guy fiddling with his car stereo and was distracted.

Modern signals with a vintage appearance and easy to fit, and no excuse not to unless your bike is a museum display or Trailer queen-Trophy whore.  Modern LEDs can be fitted and almost no drain at all from your feeble charging system,  Its also easy to mount a small discreet indicator panel within eyesight,  My Ducati's Buells and post 1994 HD sportys all have self cancelling signals and most any Asian bike does.  Easy enough to copy or adapt them.  (Probably you need to make some adjustments to your polarity).

I also fit a battery powered flasher unit from Bicycles to the back of my helmet and set it to a pulsing light. Technically its borderline illegal (I researched it) but I have a compelling argument.  I also fit reflective safety tape to a few spots on my helmet and when in city traffic I often wear a reflective safety vest over my leathers.  (Neon Yellow/Orange)

You can also dramatically increase your lighting by well proven mods and LEDs are the future.

Picture any urban landscape with multiple lanes of traffic, flashing neon signs, roadway signage and reflectors, Wide range of shapes and colors with buildings, cars, bill boards etc.  You dressed in dark clothing with a tiny filament 6 v tail light gets lost in that sea of colors and flashes of light.  Small wonder that rear end collisions are so common these days and the toughest to defend against.

I personally have been rear ended by a speeding drunk driver texting.  Me= 45-50 mph on a motorcycle.  Her= 75-80 mph in a Audi S4 and never hit the brakes or attempted evasion.
I cratered her windshield so hard the rear window of her car dislodged.  I can personally attest that it is highly unpleasant to be a hood ornament.
Dont you folks have more pressing issues to sort out? 

Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: cyclobutch on 12.09. 2017 08:32
'Blue' my T3 was fitted with an audible warning for the indicators when I first bought it. Way too irritating - it was one of the first things I removed.

On the other hand I have left my arms out on the A10 from time to time.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: ellis on 12.09. 2017 20:26
My Goldwing indicators automatically cancel because it has a lean angle sensor fitted. After you complete your turn the sensor knows the bike is coming back up to the vertical and automatically cancels the indicators. Wouldn't like to try fitting it to the A10 though.

ELLIS
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 13.09. 2017 09:45
And Yamaha RD /SR / XJ series have a timed & voltage controlled flasher.
They self cancel if you rev the engine & the voltage increases or after around 2 minutes , but the switch is metric and loos right out of place on an A 10.

As for other bikes , WHAT THE #*!&*!!! for when I have perfectly good BSA's to ride.
Rode them as daily transport back in the 60's 70's & 80's and there is no reason not to ride them daily in the 10's & 20's.
making hand signals tends to wake up the brain dead or at least confuse them and people notice old bikes.
Apart from that with the exception of the fuel injected bikes all my BSA's get much better economy and are much cheaper to run that anything made in the past 20 years.
I was putting around 8,000 miles a year on the M20 & 6,000 on the B40 and 1000 to 2000 on the A65 every year till I moved to Silverdale.
The A 65 was back up for my SR 500 that I worked on and when we retired it I rode the A65 daily , in the city doing deliveries and running my fleet of couriers.
Only problems I ever had was being pulled over for a faulty stop light because I engine brake and rarely touch the foot brake unless I was at a complete stand still or to stand the bike up out of a corner.
Rider safety is all about knowing YOUR position on the road and who is round you and what they are doing.

Regularly hear totally incompetiant riders telling me they NEED 120 + Hp to get them out of trouble and all I can say is they must be BRAIN DEAD to allow themselves to be in the situation when 13 Hp can not do the same. Hp is no substitute for Bp
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Topdad on 13.09. 2017 11:51
I agree with BSA54a10, hand signals given in a direct manner do catch the car driving idiots attention ,I try not to ride at night these days so that isn't a problem . Roadcraft the old police driving bible states that you should be able to tell the intentions of the rider/driver by his position on the road , thats out the window with car drivers but should stand for bikers .
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: cyclobutch on 13.09. 2017 13:19
And Yamaha RD /SR / XJ series have a timed & voltage controlled flasher.
They self cancel if you rev the engine & the voltage increases or after around 2 minutes , but the switch is metric and loos right out of place on an A 10.

As for other bikes , WHAT THE #*!&*!!! for when I have perfectly good BSA's to ride.
Rode them as daily transport back in the 60's 70's & 80's and there is no reason not to ride them daily in the 10's & 20's.
making hand signals tends to wake up the brain dead or at least confuse them and people notice old bikes.
Apart from that with the exception of the fuel injected bikes all my BSA's get much better economy and are much cheaper to run that anything made in the past 20 years.
I was putting around 8,000 miles a year on the M20 & 6,000 on the B40 and 1000 to 2000 on the A65 every year till I moved to Silverdale.
The A 65 was back up for my SR 500 that I worked on and when we retired it I rode the A65 daily , in the city doing deliveries and running my fleet of couriers.
Only problems I ever had was being pulled over for a faulty stop light because I engine brake and rarely touch the foot brake unless I was at a complete stand still or to stand the bike up out of a corner.
Rider safety is all about knowing YOUR position on the road and who is round you and what they are doing.

Regularly hear totally incompetiant riders telling me they NEED 120 + Hp to get them out of trouble and all I can say is they must be BRAIN DEAD to allow themselves to be in the situation when 13 Hp can not do the same. Hp is no substitute for Bp


Nah disagree. Most folks in cars are just in too much of a hurry to get round anything that they see as old and perceive as slow. Faster bikes are safer.



Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Black Sheep on 13.09. 2017 15:23
Bikes with with horsepower and hence potential high speed may indeed be safer in that they should have better brakes. Having said that, up here in the frozen North in the riding season the news on a pretty much a daily basis is of older bikers on sports bikes being killed on the roads.
I can't see any justification for high-powered sports bikes on UK roads with a 70mph speed limit. Ain't I boring? Or any German-manufactured car with an engine size above 1.6 litres. Especially if it's black. Or any hatchback. Especially with dark glass and lowered suspension.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: worntorn on 13.09. 2017 15:38
The Signal Dynamics self cancelling module is ideal for retro fitting indicators to a Vintage bike ( has to be 12 Volt though)
It's the flasher and self canceller all in one tiny package.
On one bike I used a single universal type switch on the left side. It was easy to convert the switch to momentary action.
The signals work this way-
- A  one second push of the switch gives 7 flashes, ideal for changing lanes on the fly.

- A two second push gives 20 flashes, good for doing a rolling corner thru a green light intersection.

- A three second or greater push gives 50 flashes, this is for waiting to make a turn at an intersection after stopping for a red light.

If left and right momentary switches are fitted instead, then the rider can depress both switches to get hazard or four way flash from the indicators.
It all works extremely well, all the bases are covered by this ingenious little device.
I understand the OP's concern having done the same thing with the manual indicators on the Commando. I've accidentally left  them on when going straight thru an intersection. The car opposite is turning across my lane and I am inadvertently telling him it is safe to do so!
Had a couple of self caused near misses this way then found and installed the self cancellor- end of problem.
Now I can let other drivers know my intention daytime or nightime without fear that my weak memory will get me killed.
Sometimes I use hand signals+ the indicators, the more the better.

Glen
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: coater87 on 13.09. 2017 23:07
My Goldwing indicators automatically cancel because it has a lean angle sensor fitted. After you complete your turn the sensor knows the bike is coming back up to the vertical and automatically cancels the indicators. Wouldn't like to try fitting it to the A10 though.

ELLIS

 Ellis,

 You just solved a mystery for me. Working over the phone with a friend on some electrical problems he has with an 80s motorcycle. The schematic has something called "lean detector", had no idea what that was until now. *smile*

Lee
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Sluggo on 13.09. 2017 23:50
The Signal Dynamics unit Worntorn described sounds like the most sensible solution out there and  thanks for that, I will look into that unit.

As to the self cancelling,, My wifes 2000 883 Sportster self cancels the turn signals and works well, I am unclear if its a steering thing or timing, but planned to look into it in the factory manuals and XL forums but I like how it works. 

As to using signals when no one is around, my read of the laws in my state and neighboring states (Oregon-Washington-Calif) all clearly state in revised statutes that failure to signal is a crime.  Does not allow for "Nobody was around" or,,, 2 wheel tuesdays are a free pass.  If a law enforcement officer observes you you can be cited for "Failure to signal".  I was up until recently lic as a public safety officer and the saying goes that if you cant find multiple violations in a 3 block stretch you are not competent.  What this means is,, we all break the rules every day if you were to look at such laws, It is the officers discretion to decide.  I know of a local guy who made the news for over 500 citations in a year for illegal lane changes.  The dept said its not unusual to have an officer enforce a pet peeve but that dept only issued 617 citations in a year so clearly THAT guy was a man on a mission.

Has nothing to do with BSA A10s & A7, but many modern bikes have a device called a BAS or Bank angle Sensor.  Some also have a safety sensor for the kick stands.  So these can present trouble shooting challenges when these sensors act up or even worse.......Intermittant.
But the BAS is intended to shut down the bikes engine in a crash or wreck for safety. Depending on model it needs to be reset if the bike is laid over.    I talked a friend thru diagnostics when on  a road trip he leaned his bike over to repair a item on the underside  and was easier to work on that way.  When set back upright it would not start or run. But sometimes these switches go funky all on their own. 

Again, irrelevant on a BSA.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: kiwipom on 14.09. 2017 00:48
hi guys, anyone working on the :- nobody was/is around principle was obviously wrong (If a law enforcement officer observes you, you can be cited for "Failure to signal") so indicate or expect to be cited, cheers
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: duTch on 14.09. 2017 06:21
 
 Admittedly there's some sound ideas here,  I  also don't mind Glenn's cancel one,  but being 12V and needing switches and stuff complicated it somewhat....but Roy's  switch from three other thread at least look the part(more or less)...

 Not so sure about 'lean/ no lean type ones though,  as when changing lanes there's not really a whole lot of lean going on, so unless  they're really sensitive.... *dunno*

 Afterthought - those bicycle type ones are probably as useful as anything,  but not sure of their legality in my world
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Black Sheep on 14.09. 2017 06:27
Sounds like a whole lot of solutions looking for a problem. The one bike I have with indicators is an Indian Enfield Bullet. One switch on the left hand bar and you have to cancel it yourself. However, it has great big indicators which you can see when sitting in the saddle. Not enough to dazzle but enough to let you know they are flashing. Simple! 
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 14.09. 2017 08:30
Bikes with with horsepower and hence potential high speed may indeed be safer in that they should have better brakes. Having said that, up here in the frozen North in the riding season the news on a pretty much a daily basis is of older bikers on sports bikes being killed on the roads.
I can't see any justification for high-powered sports bikes on UK roads with a 70mph speed limit. Ain't I boring? Or any German-manufactured car with an engine size above 1.6 litres. Especially if it's black. Or any hatchback. Especially with dark glass and lowered suspension.

Not just up there.
The over 50's bab's ( born again bikers ) overtook the young and inexperienced in % of crashes & % deaths - serious injury ( ambo evacuations ) about a decade ago down here.
Most are silly old fools on modern high performance bikes that are a handful for a fit & healthy 18 y/o let alone a rusty old fart carrying 20kg too much belly, with poor eyes, weak arm muscules & stiff joints.
Actually in 2015 over 50's beat the under 30's in absolute numbers of serious crashes and there are nearly 3 times more of them.

And yes I can just do speed limits most places with 13 Hp
The B40 with a massive 25 Hp can exceed the speed limit anywhere.
The A 65 can exceed most speed limits in 3rd  so why do learners need 60= hp ?
Once upon a time you needed to learn how to walk before you learned how to run. Apparently now days you have to start  flying.
When you NEED to fit ASB to a motorcycle, then technology has left the ability of the rider a long way behind
I can not
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: groily on 14.09. 2017 09:09
Lot of truth in what you say Trevor. But we have to be inclusive these days! My mates include life-longers and then those who've been bitten by the bug later on.

There's an inevitable difference in the comfort level of those who've ridden all their life compared to those who've come to it later, even with decent training. But age is very definitely not our friend, whichever category we're in. Despite riding constantly for 46 years so far I notice things about myself I don't like as I get further into my 60s  . . . bloody hard to get my head round far enough to see behind to the left (right's all right still), eyes with glasses on are crap compared to the proper unadorned ones I used to have, reaction times are down whether I want to admit it or not. Bum less able to spend hours in the saddle unrelieved - in both senses! So for someone reasonably new to it, especially on a rocketship, it's likely to be harder still. My only semi-modern, with its 100+ horses, can scare the bejasus out of me sometimes if I'm not paying proper attention.

The biggest differences between the 'lifers' and the 'latelies' that  I see are in 'lines',  braking habits and lack of smoothness in curves. Those familiar with old British money will know what I mean when I say how alarming it can be to be behind someone who 'threepenny bits' round bends. Quite often I find myself right up the exhaust pipes of these people, despite having maintained a decent gap before a bend  . . . On bikes with modest power and just 4 speeds - ours - you have to try to maintain road speed, which requires a positive approach to bendy bits; with unlimited horses and a sackful of torque it doesn't matter because the throttle is your willing ally if you let roadspeed drop right off.

But whatever the case, we need to keep all oldies on side, whichever sort - they have the money to keep the modern makers going, and the parts people - and the classic movement especially. They are (most of) US! I wonder what the age profile is of buyers of say, new Triumphs? Not that young probably  . . . and I know very well the ageing profile of many classic clubs - it's depressing!
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: bsa-bill on 14.09. 2017 09:59
Quote
'threepenny bits'

Due to hospitals, family commitments and fettling  the old Flash I'm very short of riding miles,  it must be a couple of years since I had the road skimming under me on two wheels (shame on me I know).
Hoping I can manage corners at least like a new pound coin for a start  :!
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: ellis on 14.09. 2017 14:37
HI coater87,
Its amazing what you can learn from this Forum. Glad to be of some help. *smiley4*

ELLIS
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: RoyC on 01.10. 2017 11:00
Quote
'threepenny bits'

Due to hospitals, family commitments and fettling  the old Flash I'm very short of riding miles,  it must be a couple of years since I had the road skimming under me on two wheels (shame on me I know).
Hoping I can manage corners at least like a new pound coin for a start  :!
A couple of years. I have recently got my BSA because my late wife wouldn't let me have one, my last bike in 1968 ended up with me in hospital for twelve months.  *sick*
I am now taking up biking after a fifty year break.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: BrianS on 11.10. 2017 13:52
Having ridden TTR250 trail bikes with indicators for many years, I really miss them on the A10. I really don't think flapping my arms around momentarily is good enough in modern traffic.

However, I totally agree that there can be an issue with riders leaving indicators flashing long after they have made their turning.

I fitted a Maplins buzzer on my TTR which works brilliantly.  See http://ttr250.activeboard.com/t49564210/installing-an-indicator-buzzer/

I will do the same if and when I ever get around to fitting indicators to the A10 ;-)

Brian
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: RogerSB on 21.10. 2017 12:19
Indicators, hand signals, indicators with bleepers are just tools and their effectiveness is down to what other road users may think or do. They don't guarantee to make you safer, only you can do that.

I passed my test in 1964, when all you had to do was ride around the block a few times while the examiner stood on the corner with a clip board, so most of the time you were out of sight of the examiner. After you passed and if you had any sense you learned some motorcycle road craft. Throughout the 80s and 90s I was a motorcycle instructor and examiner for the old RAC/ACU Training Scheme and later the BMF Rider Training Scheme riding Hondas, Yamahas, BSAs and a Matchless. My japanese bikes had factory fitted indicators and I used hand signals on my Brit bikes, alternating regularly between them.

The training method was initially to train pupils full control of a motorcycle such as riding in and out of cones, emergency stops, hill starts, basic maintenance, etc. When that was mastered we taught them road craft (on the road in amongst the traffic) and instilled in them that the main aid to their road safety is to ride defensively. This means don't make any move or do ANYTHING that puts you at the slightest risk of an accident. There are obvious ones (as mentioned earlier on this form) such as never pull out in front of a vehicle because its indicators are flashing - unless you have shed loads of room to do so and never assume what another vehicle is actually going to do even if it is signalling. So, in a nut shell don't risk your life or injury by assuming you will be noticed or what someone else may or may not do.

As instructors we always drummed it in to pupils to carry out lots and lots of rear observations, don't rely 100% on your mirrors and indicators. Always before you manoeuvre look behind first, then signal and then check behind again. If turning left do a life saver (look over your left shoulder) and then if you know its safe manoeuvre.  It's a difficult routine to get use to but it's a well tried and tested method and it's what you have to do when taking a motorcycle driving test today.

Banging on about this and not trying to teach granny to suck eggs but indicators are not the be all and end all of your safety. Yes they are a good aid to making your intentions noticed but they won't save you from the car that pulls out in front of you when you're doing 50 mph on the main road.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: muskrat on 22.10. 2017 20:05
My rule of thumb is to look at everything out there (cars, trucks, pedestrians and wildlife) and think "how are you going to ruin my day". Then get past them as quickly as possible. Don't give them time to react.
I use my leg to indicate right maneuvers so I still have my right hand on the brake/throttle. Never could understand how your supposed to slow for a right hander with your arm out in the breeze.
Had a close call the other day. Aproaching a roundabout a car in the right side street had his left blinker on so I proceeded onto the intersection. Yep, he came out in front of me turning right. Locked up the rear and slid behind him and road over the center of the roundabout, beating him to the other side.
Cheers
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 23.10. 2017 19:18

Never could understand how your supposed to slow for a right hander with your arm out in the breeze.
I have some friction set on the twist grip so the bike keeps rolling while I signal.
Quote
Had a close call the other day. Aproaching a roundabout a car in the right side street had his left blinker on so I proceeded onto the intersection. Yep, he came out in front of me turning right. Locked up the rear and slid behind him and road over the center of the roundabout, beating him to the other side.
Cheers
I do hope you stopped him and politely advised him of the error of his ways!
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: muskrat on 23.10. 2017 19:33
G'day Gb.
No, and I'm lucky I didn't give him a new size 10 dent in his door. 100 yards up the road I was pulled over by a cop. He must have been a bit behind me and saw me get out of shape and ride over the roundabout. He did a breathalyzer and license check then let me go. Lucky it was only 9:30 so I hadn't had a beer yet.
Cheers
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: RogerSB on 23.10. 2017 20:29
I also adjust the grub screw on the throttle so it stays where it is when I signal right, especially important when going up a hill and turning right.


On last mot examiner passed me but said throttle should shut off when released. I asked him how I keep going up a hill and give a hand signal at the same time. He never had an answer!
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: RogerSB on 23.10. 2017 20:36
Muskrat, you could have said to the officer 'What you want me to do hit the *****' - but then - maybe it's better to smile nicely at him.
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Greybeard on 23.10. 2017 20:51
G'day Gb.
No, and I'm lucky I didn't give him a new size 10 dent in his door. 100 yards up the road I was pulled over by a cop. He must have been a bit behind me and saw me get out of shape and ride over the roundabout. He did a breathalyzer and license check then let me go. Lucky it was only 9:30 so I hadn't had a beer yet.
Cheers
I guess you explained to the cop what happened. Was he sympathetic?
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: trevinoz on 23.10. 2017 22:02
A sympathetic cop in N.S.W.?   *lol*
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: muskrat on 24.10. 2017 11:50
Not sympathetic but understanding.
I rarely use the blinkers on my rHonda either. By the time they blink I'm 1/2 a mile up the road  *dunno*
Cheers
Title: Re: Retro fitted indicators = dangerous!
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 24.10. 2017 19:32
Aproaching a roundabout a car in the right side street had his left blinker on so I proceeded onto the intersection.

You made a basic mistake there.