The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical (topic titles must be descriptive) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: RichardL on 29.08. 2017 16:31

Title: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: RichardL on 29.08. 2017 16:31
I need to tell a couple of stories about my current top-end strip and reassemble, but figure the stories should wait until it's actually together.

Right now the question is this: are the internal-tooth lock washers sold for use on the base studs hard enough to bite into stainless steel nuts? I'm about to go buy some stainless internal-tooth washers from my local hardwase store and wondering if the few miles of driving is worth it.

Richard L.

EDIT: That is, a few miles of driving to get the washers. I hope the bike goes at least through the DGR.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: coater87 on 29.08. 2017 19:40
 Richard,

 The kind BSA used with the internal and external little teeth I was always told that those are for electrical connections, because they scrub a little right before they bite in- gives you a cleaner, less resistance termination.

 It also seems like if I put real torque on them, the teeth get permanently crushed flat and then they are no better than a flat washer.

 I would use stainless split ring (regular) lock washers and some blue loctite. Or if your not a believer in lock washers at all (and many people are not, myself included) I would just use blue loctite, a thick flat washer, and torque it tight.

 Lee
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: Black Sheep on 29.08. 2017 21:45
Cylinder base nuts only ever had plain washers in my experience. Not particularly prone to loosen off.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: bsa-bill on 29.08. 2017 21:48
Quote
I would just use blue loctite, a thick flat washer, and torque it tight.

I agree, no need for lock washer I have found and I don't use locktight either

Also find stainless nuts perhaps a tad softer than ordinary steel nuts, but as we know both steel and stainless steel comes in different grades of hardness
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 29.08. 2017 22:13
You'll want to check tightness after the gasket settles a little.

Loctite won't help that.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: RichardL on 29.08. 2017 23:37
Parts book shows an external tooth washer,  but internal is always supplied when ordering the part. I went ahead and got the stainless internal tooth version but was very disappointed in how dull the teeth were. I was able to scratch the nut with the edge of the washer, but that's little comfort with dull teeth. I went the Loctite route with those washers. I'm sure it will be fine until the next time it has to come apart and every 1/8 turn of the nuts requires a spanner instead of fingers.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: Black Sheep on 30.08. 2017 06:29
Don't know if I'm misreading my parts book but I don't see a lock washer listed for the base nuts. As mentioned above, in my experience I have never come across lock washers on cylinder base nuts. Not that it makes any difference...
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 30.08. 2017 06:44
Generally speaking, only plain washers or no washers at all, are a firm enough arrangement for such an application.

Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: JulianS on 30.08. 2017 09:59
As already said the cylinder base gaskets, especially the modern thick ones, do settle and the nuts will need to be checked and probably retigtened over the first 100-200 miles use. For that reason I would avoid loctite.

Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: RichardL on 30.08. 2017 12:59
Well, the book doesn't say "lock" or "star" washer, but it's pretty  obvious in the picture. Regarding the gasket settling, I made my own from thick, fairly hard, art paper, so I'm thinking that settling won't be a problem (by happy coincidence). I agree that lock washers are probably inaffective or, at least, not as affective as we'd like.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: rocker21 on 30.08. 2017 14:58
well the best thing you can use now is "nordlock washers" they will never come undone, a bit more expensive than spring or star washers, but they do work and if you are after something that is 100% reliable than that is what they are.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: bsa-bill on 30.08. 2017 17:04
Quote
"nordlock washers"

Not familiar with the name Richard, what do they look like?

Another option is Nyloc nuts, they have a nylon insert at the top of the nut that stops them unwinding

All the best - Bill

PS off topic I know but I just got me PC back from repair shop, I have been flogging my old eyes on a ten inch tablet for a week, not good.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: RichardL on 31.08. 2017 00:34
Quote

PS off topic I know but I just got me PC back from repair shop, I have been flogging my old eyes on a ten inch tablet for a week, not good.

You want to be careful flogging your eyes too much. You could go blind.  *whistle*
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: rocker21 on 31.08. 2017 09:45
nordlock washer are a 2 part washer with teeth which makes them easy to do up, but very difficult to undo, look at this website.  http://www.nord-lock.com/nord-lock/wedge-locking/washers/introduction/
I have used them on many things and they are a good replacement for tab washers, recently used them on the crown wheel on my guzzi as someone forgot to do up the tab washers in the past and it made a mess when the bolts came loose  and you can't buy them any more.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: bsa-bill on 31.08. 2017 10:40
Quote
nordlock washer are a 2 part washer with teeth

Ah I think I've seen them right enough

Thanks
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 31.08. 2017 11:00
Quote
"nordlock washers"

Not familiar with the name Richard, what do they look like?

Another option is Nyloc nuts, they have a nylon insert at the top of the nut that stops them unwinding

All the best - Bill

PS off topic I know but I just got me PC back from repair shop, I have been flogging my old eyes on a ten inch tablet for a week, not good.
Nylocks are never used where the part will get very hot cause the nylon melts and becomes a thread lubricant.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: bsa-bill on 31.08. 2017 17:22
I'm wondering just how hot the base of barrels gets

From the net
"THERMAL PROPERTIES Most nylon insert locknuts are manufactured from Zytel 101 which has an effective temperature range up to 250 ° F. Zytel 103 has a higher effective range to 350 ° F and can be special ordered for your higher heat applications."

and in any case the base nuts on my bikes are held with a plain washer and nothing else and have never had one slacken so even if the nylon softened the nut should still hold
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: muskrat on 31.08. 2017 21:28
G'day all.
I'm just using plain stainless steel flat washers on both my A's. The SS kit of studs, nuts and spring washers from Motalia. http://www.motalia.net/product_info.php?cPath=419&products_id=2852   I don't reuse spring washers so the next install I used flat washers. Haven"t had a nut move yet (I do re-torque after a few heat cycles).
Cheers
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: RichardL on 01.09. 2017 05:27
Two questions, Muskie. First, do you readjust the valve clearances after retightening the base nuts? Second, are you actually tightening to a measured torque, or using the well-adjusted force of an experienced arm?

Richard L.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: bsa-bill on 01.09. 2017 11:03
Quote
well-adjusted force of an experienced arm?

For most folks tool kits not much in the way of other options when only a spanner will reach
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: RichardL on 01.09. 2017 12:40
Bill,

With the arithmetic  worked out you could pull on the box end of the spanner with a fish scale (not the shiny bits on fish skin). I am willing to bet that BSA did none-such on A10 base bolts in the factory.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: JulianS on 01.09. 2017 13:43
Yes check valve clearance after tightening cylinder base nuts.
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: muskrat on 01.09. 2017 21:32
G'day Richard.
I use a crows foot spanner and torque wrench on all but that bugga at the front. That one gets the click of the wrist.
Yes whenever a nut or bolt above the case (base, head, rockerbox) is touched the tappets are reset.
Cheers
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: bsa-bill on 02.09. 2017 20:43
Quote
crows foot spanner

have I lived a sheltered life or memory leakage (don't answer that one) but a crows foot spanner - is it like an almost ring spanner
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: RichardL on 02.09. 2017 20:53
Like this, but need longer reach for cylinder nuts. Don't know of Muskie's is Whitworth, but you can get them custom made, so I've just learned.

Richard L.



http://m.sears.com/tools-wrenches-crowfoot-wrenches-sets/b-1214364367
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: coater87 on 03.09. 2017 00:39
 Yes,

 and you can get all kinds of adapters for reaching difficult places with a torque wrench. Spend tons of money on do-dads and what-nots to get exactly 9.2 Nm of torque on a nut as long as you have the adapters at exactly a 43.9 degree angle.

 Or you can just reach in with a wrench and tighten it down good. *smile*
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: bsa-bill on 03.09. 2017 09:02
Thanks guys, not what I was thinking about at all.
Honestly don't think I seen one of them before, think I'll stick with the Armstrong (or not so these days)

The thing I was thinking of is a ring spanner with a bit of the ring missing, tractor mechanics had them and called them injector spanners (the gap allowed it to be slipped over the injector pipe (oops OT again)
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: duTch on 03.09. 2017 10:40

 I never came across a crowfoot either Bill, but they do look like a handy idea....
Quote
The thing I was thinking of is a ring spanner with a bit of the ring missing, tractor mechanics had them and called them injector spanners (the gap allowed it to be slipped over the injector pipe (oops OT again)

 those are also used for hydraulic brake lines- handy kit
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 04.09. 2017 10:04
Thanks guys, not what I was thinking about at all.
Honestly don't think I seen one of them before, think I'll stick with the Armstrong (or not so these days)

The thing I was thinking of is a ring spanner with a bit of the ring missing, tractor mechanics had them and called them injector spanners (the gap allowed it to be slipped over the injector pipe (oops OT again)

Called a flair nut spannar and if you remember about twice as thick as a normal ring
Title: Re: Cylinder base nuts and washers
Post by: bikerboy on 25.09. 2017 01:37
You lot on here make me feel like a real bodge merchant at times  *smile*

I tighten them with a spanner FT when I build them. I check sometimes if its rattling a lot and I never redo the tappets afterwards.

I have never retorqued an A10 head in my life, the tappets get checked when they rattle a lot or it runs like a pig, the points get checked when it wont start anymore. A point in my favour is I do check the chains every 6 months or so  *smile*

I really must get a bit better on my maintainence I reckon