The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: RogerSB on 13.10. 2017 09:57

Title: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 13.10. 2017 09:57
Hi,


I haven't used my 1960 Golden Flash for a couple of weeks due to our lovely (not) weather! Flicked my lights on earlier this week and . . . eek! Very dim  *sad2* . Our last ride (my wife as pillion) was for about 20 miles on country roads so battery should have had a bit of a charge as we would have been doing up to 50 mph at times - (no lights on). So I'm thinking maybe it's time to start looking for a replacement battery.


Bike has been converted to 12v and uses the following: 12v Varta Powersports 12N7-3B (YB7L-B), 7Ah, CCA: 74A battery. V-Reg II regulator by AO Services, dynamo belt drive conversion. Amp meter shows a charge over about 45 mph.


I was going to settle on a Motobatt MB9U (Absorbed Glass Matt), 11Ah, CCA 140A battery as I've read that it will hold a charge a lot longer than a wet lead acid battery and can withstand vibration better but then read that it needed at least 14v, while my GF's dynamo will only provide half of that . . . so should I think again?


I realise that the high CCA isn't a big factor unless you need it for cranking (my foot does that). Obviously the battery dimensions are an important factor as is good standby capability for the winter months when most of out bikes stand idle for longer than usual here in the UK.


There must be wealth of info out there amongst our A7 and A10 owners on how suitable present day 12v batteries are for our bikes, so any info on your experience with your batteries would be most welcome.


Cheers, Roger.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: JulianS on 13.10. 2017 10:10
My A10 12 volt converted (using a JG regulator) uses a YTX7L-BS agm battery about 6AH.

Fits nicely in the battery holder with wire retaining clip.

Using a 35/35 Osram Night racer bulb (good light and range) and led tail/stop. Charge balances on ammeter at a about 35 mph top gear. I ride with lights on.

Currently using a Lucas badged battery (cheap, 12 months use so far fine no problems),  the previous Yuasa (expensive)  lasted for 7 years before fading away.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: duTch on 13.10. 2017 10:13
 At least the lights come on, so best check the S.O.C (voltage), and clean the terminal connections (if not already done)  and check the avoid level then see what happens.
 I think a lot of people waste a lot of money and batteries unnecessarily.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: mikeb on 13.10. 2017 11:08
i don't know the regulator you've got but i thought all 12v batteries need 14.4v to charge. your dynamo will fire that out plus more if you rev it enough. it you've got a slightly higher ratio on the belt drive then i think 45mph is about right to start charging for a 6v dynamo. some belt kits start charging at even lower revs due to even better ratios. if you got the dynamo rewound for 12v then it should start to charge closer to 30mph.

I heard or read  or googled to the contrary -  that motobats don't like vibration and also don't like the cold. tho i wouldn't put money on this. I use 2x 6v cyclons in series in the b33 (12v) as they fit in a rubber battery box.

i wonder if we all over think this stuff. no electric start to worry about and low amperage fittings. just about any battery should do. I'd favour some kind of agm so it won't ever leak.   just don't get a lithium as the charge characteristics are very different and they catch fire when treated badly.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: a101960 on 13.10. 2017 14:25
Quote
I use 2x 6v cyclons in series in the b33 (12v) as they fit in a rubber battery box.
Me too on my A10. Truly a "a fit and forget" item. I also have the excellent DVR2 electronic regulator and belt drive kit. The cyclon batteries hold their charge well throughout the winter months when the bike is laid up. When out riding I never see the ammeter pointer move from the centre position very much unless I blip the throttle because the cyclons hold their charge so well. The Lucas E3L is well up to the task of keeping the batteries fully charged. I would say this in passing, I personally do not have a very high opinion of V-REG regulator I found that mine when I had one fitted to my bike had a tendency to discharge the battery back through the dynamo when idling. The DVR2 does not do this.
John
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: chaterlea25 on 13.10. 2017 16:22
HI Roger,
Quote
V-Reg II regulator by AO Services,
Quote
Amp meter shows a charge over about 45 mph.

Those regulators are notorious for discharging back into the dynamo at lower revs  *problem* POS *ex* *ex*
The bike should charge the battery and then "switch off" the charge once the battery is fully charged and the lights off

What belt drive conversion is fitted? toothed or vee belt?

A 12 volt conversion should balance a 35W headlamp plus 5W tail at about 30 MPH fitted with a +10% toothed belt
drive dynamo
(At least mine does *smile*)

John

Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 13.10. 2017 16:31
Many thanks chaps, that's what makes this forum great - always other very willing to help with good and helpful advice.


Julian, if you don't mind me asking, what brand is your AGM battery. I see there are Varta and Yuasa in YTX7L-BS specification.


Wiring is all good as I checked and renewed a lot of the wiring and terminals earlier this year. However, I haven't yet checked the specific gravity of mybattery. What I have done is charged it with my iMax B6 charger and when it was fully charged the reading was 14.7v and I confirmed this with a multimeter. Today (24 hrs later) it's 12.63v, which I know is normal and my 40/38w headlight is shining bright so I'll keep checking with my multimeter. If it continues to drop to 12v or under quickly while just sitting there and my light goes dim I think it's new battery time.


Also Interesting to hear about a V-Reg discharging through the dynamo. Was that a V-Reg or V-Reg II? The V-Reg II is an upgraded version of original V-Reg and I've read that it was designed to act more like the mechanical control box in that after the cut-in speed is reached and the bike slows down again it goes negative (seen on the amp meter as a 2-3 amps discharge and then will flick to zero). Of course in some riding situations this will happen a lot so (as I've read) it shouldn't be cause for concern. I believe all this is controlled by a diode which acts as a one way valve so no current can flow backwards.


My Golden Flash was already converted to 12v when I bought it so I don't know what dynamo belt conversion I've got. I'm going to have a look when I carry out some maintenance on it shortly.






Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 13.10. 2017 16:36
Hi John, thanks for that. It sort of confirms what I've just written about how the V-Reg II works. I don't profess to know exactly how it works - it's just what I've read about it.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 13.10. 2017 16:45
Attached is section of the article mentioned. Hope you can read it ok.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: JulianS on 13.10. 2017 18:11
My battery says Lucas on the case but goodness knows who made it. Cost me about £20 including post past year.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: chaterlea25 on 13.10. 2017 21:03
Hi Roger,
That article says the same thing as I wrote earlier
A further problem with them is if the battery voltage drops below a certain value they will not self excite and charge the battery. This causes lots of problems with  battery ignition vintage bikes
Test you existing battery by turning on the headlight and see if it will keep the voltage up for at least 30 minutes

There are other regulators on the market that do not have this issue, most owners here seem to favour the DVR2
http://dynamoregulators.com/voltage-regulators.php

John
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 14.10. 2017 10:29
Thank you Julian and John for your latest.


Well, checked my battery this morning and it was reading 12.64v (12.63v yesterday) so that's a good sign as that's what it should be after just sitting there for a couple of days after its initial settling down period. Early days so I'll keep checking for a couple of days more and if it's stays there I'll check again after doing 20 or 30 miles (without lights on) to see if it maintains a charge.


Thinking about my last ride, it was 20 miles on narrow country roads over Dartmoor. The roads were damp and in some places still very wet after rain during the night with lots of dead leaves and so lots of gentle breaking and stopping at junctions. A 30 mile ride previous to that was also on country roads so similar riding but with dry roads. If what John has pointed out is happening then that would explain a flat battery as riding slowly and with lots of braking on the narrow roads my stop light would likely have been on half the time . . . and its 21/5W. Once off the narrow moor roads and on the main roads we were, of course, able to ride at a speed for the dynamo to cut-in occasionally but was it enough to put a decent charge back in the battery . . . I suspect not. So I won't rush into replacing my battery just yet but may have to replace my regulator for a DCR2 instead. If it stops raining a good ride should provide an answer.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 14.10. 2017 11:25
Just found this: DVR2 vs V-RegII.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: JulianS on 14.10. 2017 11:39
I would consider changing your tail/stop bulb for an LED replacement. Current consumption very much less.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 14.10. 2017 12:01
Yes, that's now on my list Julian. I'm thinking it must be a big factor in my battery draining, as well as the way my regulator works. Always been aware of headlights draining the battery at slow speeds but as I don't often ride at night I rarely need my headlight on but I never really considered how riding on narrow country roads impacted on how often and how much my stop light would be on by having to constantly slow and brake for oncoming traffic, bends in road, etc.. . . until recently!
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Dynamo Regulators Mike on 15.10. 2017 12:31
Some interesting reported sophistry in this extract. It would be interesting to read the whole piece and view the diagram referred to.

The reverse current at low revs with the VReg2 is indeed a real battery drain, but does not flow back through the cut-out diode, rather through the field drive circuit. There is nothing in these few paragraphs to justify this 2 Amp low speed discharge as a 'design feature'. For sure this is a design limitation pure and simple. Yes it replicates a characteristic of the cut-out in a mechanical regulator unit, but it is in no way a desirable feature.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: coater87 on 15.10. 2017 13:26
 Yeah,

 Slowly discharging my battery because I drive in town is a hell of a feature. *sad2*

 Lee
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 15.10. 2017 15:22
Hi,


The article mentioned is here:-


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwifx9Ov6PLWAhWnC8AKHctKAngQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.voc.uk.com%2Fnet%2Fdocs%2F8.4%2F8.4-736-18.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0KHkwjJS3F1KbfIY4zdXHN


or search for:-


Electronic Regulators, 12 volts, and the V-Reg II Regulator Discharge at Low Revs
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Black Sheep on 15.10. 2017 16:17
I use V reg IIs on my Star Twin (12v) and A10 (6v). The Star Twin has a pair of Cyclone batteries in series in an old black battery case, the A10 a Yuasa. Both machines are absolutely fine with daylight headlights - and both are pretty good after dark as well.
As long as your dynamo is in good order, the battery is fairly unimportant. I am very pleased with the V reg IIs. They do the job reliably and are fuss-free. 
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 15.10. 2017 18:26
Some interesting reported sophistry in this extract. It would be interesting to read the whole piece and view the diagram referred to.

The reverse current at low revs with the VReg2 is indeed a real battery drain, but does not flow back through the cut-out diode, rather through the field drive circuit. There is nothing in these few paragraphs to justify this 2 Amp low speed discharge as a 'design feature'. For sure this is a design limitation pure and simple. Yes it replicates a characteristic of the cut-out in a mechanical regulator unit, but it is in no way a desirable feature.

Why do they babble on about the old Lucas control box?  It only discharged for a fraction of a second, until the cutout opened. 

They seem to be admitting up to 3 A discharge.  That's equivalent to an extra 36 W lamp, at 12 V and is just about the last thing you'd want when you're crossing a busy town at night.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Dynamo Regulators Mike on 16.10. 2017 09:12
I use V reg IIs on my Star Twin (12v) and A10 (6v). . . . . . . Both machines are absolutely fine with daylight headlights - and both are pretty good after dark as well.

Yes, the shortcoming of the V-Reg II's low speed discharge will be less apparent on a 6V machine, where charging begins at lower dynamo revs.
Then again on the Star Twin with its more free revving engine, will get up to charging speed more readily, even on a 12 V system, as long as the electrical load is not too great.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Black Sheep on 16.10. 2017 09:56
All is explained! The greatest advantage of the 12 volt upgrade on the Star Twin is having a pair of Oxford heated grips. Wonderful.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 16.10. 2017 10:30
Thanks to you all for your contribution to this post.


I don't pretend to understand all the tech detail but I get the gist of it and it seems (to me in a simplistic way) that suitability of the V-Reg II depends on what particular bike you have, how you ride it and your local traffic and roads.


My battery is still at 12.60v so yesterday I ordered a DVR2 from Mike and from what's been said here and also from what I've read elsewhere I'm pretty confident I'll see a difference in how the battery is maintained.  My limit, these days, is 50 - 55 mph even on dual carriageways (no motorways here west of Exeter) and I'm always conscious of my unrestored GF, even if maintained well, is 57 years old so I treat it with due consideration. I'm now looking for a suitable led tail/stop light!
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: duTch on 16.10. 2017 12:08

 The only other thing I can suggest is use a lower gear for longer (if practicable) to keeps the revs up
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RoyC on 16.10. 2017 12:55
I'm now looking for a suitable led tail/stop light!

Try Paul Goff  http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyleds.htm  I have had all my LED's from him and are excellent.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: rocker21 on 16.10. 2017 14:22
change the headlight unit for a cibie unit with an H4 bulb fitting  and with 12v electrics you can buy from paul goff an LED for the headlight and a suitable stop/tail led as well, total lighting load is less than 24 watts and a much better headlight as well, much brighter and the beam goes a lot further, great for country roads, you can easily ride with dipped beam in daylight without flattening the battery. done this to my A7ss and it works well. if you are worried about it discharging back through the dynamo simply fit a big diode which acts like a one way valve, very simple to do, i have one of paul goffs units on mine and not a problem.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Black Sheep on 16.10. 2017 14:51
Halfords do LED 12v stop/tail lights. Hoping that Paul Goff's LED headlights are better than the Classic Dynamo Restorations BPF ones I tried. Great for being seen, hopeless to see by.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 16.10. 2017 15:25
Thanks everybody.


Just sent off an enquiry to Paul Goff for an LED stop/tail bulb which draws 1.25W/4W and also a LED pilot bulb (for daylight running when I feel it's required) which draws only 1.5W. I'm not too worried about my headlight (just yet) because I avoid, if possible, being caught out in the dark when riding my GF.


Hopefully by next weekend I'll not have to worry about my battery. I'll post the outcome here.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: mikeb on 16.10. 2017 20:43
Roger
i don't know Pauls taillamps tho have used the 'classic dynamo regulator conversions' ones and the 'matchless clueless' ones. the matchless one was a little easier to fit and i think brighter. they are both more directional than the incandescent bulbs. a great way to save power on the a10.

if you think there are a range of opinions on batteries just wait until you ask an LED headlamp question  *eek*
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: rocker21 on 17.10. 2017 14:21
the classic dynamo LEd headlight unit is a double dip type which is not that good on dipped beam as it does not put a lot of light down the middle of the road, lights up the edges fine, Paul Goffs one  gives a more conventional beam  with an asymmetric dip, much better, i have seen some very cheap LED units about and they are rubbish.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: cyclobutch on 17.10. 2017 16:31
Halfords do LED 12v stop/tail lights. Hoping that Paul Goff's LED headlights are better than the Classic Dynamo Restorations BPF ones I tried. Great for being seen, hopeless to see by.

Got screwed over by Goffy on my last order.  Sent me a 12V coil when I had very clearly ordered one for 6V. All then swapped - except I had the hassle and cost of return. No offer of remuneration, which I then queried. I asked to be credited through my PayPal account but this has also failed to materialise.

Smacks of sharp business practice and poor service. Not impressed.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RoyC on 17.10. 2017 19:10
Perhaps I'm just lucky. but I have always had good service and never had to return anything.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: mikeb on 17.10. 2017 20:16
Quote
the classic dynamo LEd headlight unit is a double dip type which is not that good
yes their double dipper is inadequate in my view too. but their 5th gen LED is up to the task (12v and 6v options) and i think still the best around.
yes there are a lot of rubbish LEDs out there, especially older and cheaper designs. search the forum where these debates have been had
(see, the LED debate started again)
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 19.10. 2017 11:34
Hi All,


Here's my update as promised:-


Replaced V-Reg II with DVR2 yesterday, same wiring so a very quick and easy job, one out, one in! In the garage with bike on the main stand it took enough revs to move the bike backwards before the ammeter needle flicked to charge so went for a test ride up the road and back and was happy to see the ammeter needle flicking to charge when there was enough but not excessive revs.


Also LEDs were delivered yesterday so fitted those also. Tail light was just a simple replacement of the bulb. The pilot light was just a little more work because it has a rubber bulb holder so it doesn't make an earth like the original one - so there's two wires. Soldered on connectors and fixed the earth to one of nachelle bolts. Switched on lights and was amazed. Photos attached. As you can see the pilot light, which apparently only consumes 1.5v is far brighter than the 38W dip - and even lights up the garage.


So, in conclusion, in my opinion it was definitely worth doing.






Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 19.10. 2017 17:17
Is the brake light a lot brighter than the tail light?

It has to be, for traffic behind you to notice it.  Some LEDs fall down on that.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 19.10. 2017 21:28
Hi, yes it is brighter. Picture taken was of the tail light - not stop light. I'll take photos of both tail and stop lights tomorrow so both taken at same time for fair comparison and publish here.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 20.10. 2017 08:19
the classic dynamo LED headlight unit is a double dip type which is not that good on dipped beam as it does not put a lot of light down the middle of the road, lights up the edges fine, Paul Goffs one  gives a more conventional beam  with an asymmetric dip, much better, i have seen some very cheap LED units about and they are rubbish.

The problem with the double dip is it uses a single CREE LED that has a 120 deg beam spread to replace a 360 deg beam spread incandessent globe.
Thus it only reflects from 1/3 of your reflector so even with both LEDs energized the best you can get is 2/3 the beam spread of the old globe.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 20.10. 2017 23:10
LED tail & stop light comparison day and night.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 21.10. 2017 17:23
Interesting thanks.

I may invest in something like that, now that I’ve got an electronic ignition set.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 21.10. 2017 19:07
My LEDs were bought from Paul Goff (http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyleds.htm (http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyleds.htm)). I don't ride a lot in the dark so most important for me was the 1.5v low consumption of the stop light, which seems to be on more than off in today's traffic.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: duTch on 21.10. 2017 23:00
 
Quote
Posted by: RogerSB
« on: Today at 05:07:29 »

.     ...... I don't ride a lot in the dark so most important for me was the 1.5v low consumption of the stop light, ...............

 Maybe you mean 1.5A ? I think that's what mine uses all-up when it works   *conf*

 Edit an hour later; Just realised while checking my consumption, that my brake/tail only half work so need replacement, might try the ones in here (for Oz folk) ;-

 https://www.ledshoponline.com.au/index.php?route=product/category&path=187 (https://www.ledshoponline.com.au/index.php?route=product/category&path=187)

Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: mikeb on 22.10. 2017 02:48
Dutch
LEDs keep getting better, but when I last read about plug-in bulb replacements they sure needed to. I'd want to find some reviews from bike owners or similar before I'd want one of those. The LED boards have a lot more LEDs on them and hence brighter, and more $$
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: duTch on 22.10. 2017 03:58
 1/3 time at GP..

 Yo mike,  don't disagree,  but the pilot light and brake/tail I've been using for a while work fine (when they work fully- I've been through a couple of each), and these ones listed are cheaper than the others (x 1/4), so am happy to give  them a whirl.
 I sometimes run the pilot during the day or early morning runs to work and have been reminded  I've left it on, so for someone else to see it can't be all that bad, and I think it only draws about 0.08A...
 
  These are what I  more specifically had in mind,  just got lazy and pasted the lot...

https://www.ledshoponline.com.au/6-volt-LED-brake-tail-bulb  (https://www.ledshoponline.com.au/6-volt-LED-brake-tail-bulb)
 https://www.ledshoponline.com.au/6-volt-ba9s-small-bayonet-led-australia  (https://www.ledshoponline.com.au/6-volt-ba9s-small-bayonet-led-australia)
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: Black Sheep on 22.10. 2017 07:06
LED stop/tail lights are excellent. The advantage is that in the dark, as you slow for a corner and brake, your headlight doesn't dim as the stop light comes on. I don't like LED instrument lights. Not a nice colour and I do like having a hint of warmth from the 2.2W incandescent bulbs helping to keep the precious chronometrics dry.
I am yet to be convinced that an LED headlight bulb is good for night riding. As long as you have decent wiring and use wires as earths leads rather than earthing through the frame, even the humble 30/24 BPF bulb takes some beating.
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: RogerSB on 22.10. 2017 10:30
Whoops! Well spotted duTch and thanks for pointing it out (no idea what I was thinking).

To clarify: LED Pilot light is 1.5W. LED Tail is 1.25W and LED stop is 4W.

So, in amps to my reckoning that's 0.125Ah for pilot, 0.105Ah for tail and 0.33Ah for stop.

Compared to my previous incandescent bulbs which was 4W Pilot bulb (0.33Ah), 5W tail (0.42Ah) and 21W stop (1.75Ah).
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: duTch on 22.10. 2017 11:55

 
   Not point scoring- just (trying to) saving confusion... I was running a halogen Stop/Tail, and it was drawing ~ 0.8/3.8A ,but my current (no pun intended *bash*) LED's are I think only sucking ~ 0.08A & 0.8 A respective, but that's from memory a while ago, and not sure if the pilot was included. Todays measuring is ditorted by the tail/stop  only half working, but as the photos may show is still better than a stock setup...have to split the pics  up due to file allowance, and think I got it right- the file names didn't carry across the same *conf*

 Pic #1  showing missing LED
         2       "      Same with lens on
         3        "     tail @ ~ 2 mtr, with Pilot in background shining on wall @ ~ 0.8 mtr
         4        "     Stop @   same as ^^^         
         
Title: Re: 12v batteries
Post by: duTch on 22.10. 2017 12:01

  I don't mean to turn this 'Battery thread ' into a  into a 'lighting thread', but ;-

  Pic # 5         "    Tail @        ~8 Mtr
          6        "     Stop @ ~  same 8 mtr^^^
          7        "     Pilot only @ ~ 12 mtr