The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: TRIPLET on 24.06. 2009 16:39

Title: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: TRIPLET on 24.06. 2009 16:39
      hope someone can help me here,when checking to decide if a frame is a genuine RGS,apart from the obvious checks like the GA10 number,four wrap around engine lugs,rearset brackets,absence of steering lock etc i have been told by a couple of knowledgeable chaps that an important check is to ascertain the gap between the rear frame loop stay and the battery tray brackets which on a genuine RGS frame you should be able to insert your finger,around 11mm,only about 2/3mm on othet A7 frames.can anyone of us confirm this and why is this so?
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: 69Bonni on 24.06. 2009 16:46
Hi Triplet!

Check out my Post here.....

http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=1164.msg8055#msg8055

This should hopefully answer your questions

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: TRIPLET on 24.06. 2009 16:51
Hi Triplet!

Check out my Post here.....

http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=1164.msg8055#msg8055

This should hopefully answer your questions

Regards

Steve
        absolutely brilliant that,   thanks   Steve.
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: trevinoz on 25.06. 2009 02:16
Funny thing about the finger test is that CA7 frames have the same clearance.
There are also some GA7 frames which were delivered to South Australian Police which have the single sided rear brake and so have the same swinging arm and finger clearance. They also have the four cast lugs on the frame.
Trev.
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: 69Bonni on 25.06. 2009 08:13
Hi Trev, Triplet.

Just goes to show you can never say never!!

Goodness knows what actually came out of the factory, and how thay stamped up some frames, special requirments...

Interesting one about those Australian Police bikes, and i bet they wernt the only exceptions

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: a101960 on 25.06. 2009 11:28
The whole question of what bench marks can be used to identify an RGS frame is fraught with difficulties. My RGS look a like frame has a CA number and as far as I can tell started life as a Shooting Star that was registered in 1960. It has the four wrap round engine mounting lugs, but also has a steering lock, and is fitted with tyre pump mountings which I believe was not the case with RGS frames. I know that my bike is not a genuine RGS. It has rear set foot rest lugs fitted and a rod operated rear brake. With the exception of the wrap round engine lugs converting a standard A10 frame to RGS specification would be fairly simple. I have mentioned this before, but it is worth re-visiting the subject. The definition of what an RGS actually is, is open to debate. What must be remembered is that before BSA put the RGS into production Eddie Dow was building them to order so we therefore have to differentiate between what BSA built and what Eddie Dow built. The Dow RGS was converted from a standard Super Rocket model and required rear set mounting lugs to be fitted, and I would assume a Gold Star swinging arm. Super Rockets were produced with cross over cable operated rear brakes. The exact specification of the bike would have differed from customer to customer depending on how much money they had at their disposal and what they wanted. Of course Dow built bikes would not have had the RGS frame number either, never the less they were Rocket Gold Stars. A Dow RGS would have had an Oxfordshire registration number because the business was based in Banbury, but that is not an infallible guide because it is possible that owners might have had their existing bikes converted. With the BSA built machines things are a bit more straight forward. The frame numbers and other frame differences are more clear cut. What we can be sure of is that without the enterprise of Eddie Dow the BSA RGS might not ever have seen the light of day. What all of this goes to show is that you could have a genuine RGS that does not conform to the generally accepted BSA specification criteria. Which leaves open the question of what do people mean when defining the authenticity of an RGS?
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: 69Bonni on 25.06. 2009 13:50
a101960 Sorry i dont have your name,

Thats it exactly! and in my view your bike is as much a RGS as any other .... Define "Original"
I guess what people mean is, "Was it a factory produced RGS" but then i would argue an Eddie Dow machine was actually an "Original" and the Factory copied it (eventually) because of Eddies success!

Is a RGS built in the 60's any less original, not in my book. Just one for the rivet counters!

Quote
converting a standard A10 frame to RGS specification would be fairly simple

However i will take you up on converting a standard A10 frame to RGS  ;)

I have been rebuilding (or starting to) what was a Road Rocket to a RGS replica and i cant believe all the little issues
Converting to a single side hub, changing the swing arm, the chainguard, brake pedal, pedal mounting lug, swinging arm pin, swinging arm bushes, foot pegs.

I have only discovered this by trying to do it, Banished are the thoughts that an A10 frames an A10 frame

I think the answer is to start with the right bike to modify, mine was a jumbled box of Road Rocket
Good spannering practise, and if anyone is wondering why RGS replicas (reasonable ones not a gold flash with chromed mudguards) are expensive try building one, any part tagged RGS doubles in price, my bank balance will testify!

Keeps me out from her indoors feet for now

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: a101960 on 25.06. 2009 15:08
Steve,

I will qualify the remark that converting a standard A10 frame to RGS specification would be relatively simple in so far as a rear set conversion kit can be sourced from at least one parts dealer and so can the short rear brake pedal. The crinkle hub, brake plate, and operating rod are all also on sale through several dealers. The most difficult part to obtain would be the swing arm, but even that would not be to hard because one from a B series single would do just as well. There is however. as you mention a cost factor. Dow offset some of the cost by returning the removed Super Rocket items and returned them to stock in his spare part stores. We of course do not enjoy that luxury! For those that are interested there is an account of what was involved in The Gold Star Book that has an RGS supplement written by John Gleed an ex Dow employee. If you own or aspire to own, or want to build an RGS replica this book is an invaluable for reference not least because of the comprehensive RGS parts list it contains. For many people the main constraint would be lack of adequate workshop facilities. All I would say is that if you are going to build a rep bike then do just that, it is a bit pointless if you only do half a job. Steve, there is no doubt about it that anything vaguely perceived as RGS or Goldie triggers a frenzy of price inflation, in fact one of the things that most depresses me is when people look my bike over invariably their opening gambit is either how much is it worth, or I bet that's worth a lot of money. Talk about missing the point.

John
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: 69Bonni on 25.06. 2009 16:06
Hi John

Missing the point indeed!

Yes im actually building one as i have always wanted one! My Big Brother had one, i loved it! his was a tourer (if you could call it that, Straight bars, infact they were standard A10 Bars inverted) he did eventually fit clip ons etc. It also had Twin Goldie silencers not the usual Siamese pipes. Thing is i couldnt afford one then and i still cant afford one now! How funny is that!

I just think that the whole bike (RGS) just looks "Right" its a beautiful machine!

So at the moment i have started with this RR basket case the frame has already been two packed or stoved. I have rebuilt the engine, thats it, i have been collecting parts now, Rear wheel complete, Front wheel complete both for rebuilding, Tank (needs Painting) Forks wrong type, so i have sourced the right ones just need rebuilding. Then just the Mudguards, Main stand, Rev counter, and and i guess you know the drill!

This will be my 3rd rebuild done the Bonnie and the A65T both from basket cases.

I have been looking for that book and trying to get the one that includes the suppliment, that will help. Also will either modify or get a B31 swing arm, there pretty hard to get hold of i think my best bet is a bike jumble Ebay no chance and too expensive when they turn up. I might just fit new mounts for the chainguard and the torque arm.

My Workshop is nearly finished .... another ongoing project!!

I'll Get there

Nice to chat John

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: chaterlea25 on 25.06. 2009 22:02
Hi Everyone,
I have just joined the forum having found it when looking for the answers to the opening topic on this thread,
I have owned and worked on BSA's for a long time, As a teen I always wanted an A10, not just any old one mind you it had to look "just right"
It never happened in my teens though and I was 32 before I got a 1961 Super Rocket rolling chassis and various bits in a box!!!.
I slowly gathered the right bits for it as I found or could afford them, working on other peoples bikes always seemed to take priority and besides I have several other bikes to get around on.
I finished the SR in 2002 and have covered over 8k miles on it.

Anyway  Back to the RGS issues, recently I was offered a 1963 RGS with a verifying letter from the Gold Star Club, this along with the fact that the (now) previous owner had it for more than 20 years, back then they were not so sought after or "faked", leads me to believe its the real deal
Going through all the features mentioned here and comparing them to my SR, I still have a couple of unanswered questions ,
I had never heard that the RGS cylinder block had or was the only model to have the staggered fins? my SR has the same type !!

My Super Rocket does not have a top pump mount? no sign of it when the frame was blasted!!

I have been told that the later "Big valve" heads have a different part number
see,
http://atlanticgreen.com/a10alloyhead.htm

Also on the tuned RGS heads the last two numbers are ground out and stamped over
67-1549 now reads 67-1571. I have one of these with 1 3/16 inlet (30mm) it doesnt look to have been done afterwards by somebody

The frame drawing shown in a recent thread for a single cyl frame shows the gap between the frame member and the brackets, ?????

The manner and style of the way the frame number is stamped on RGS frames is very definite
I have been informed that there was a special jig to do this in the factory

I will post some photos when I figure out how
Regards
John O R




Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: TRIPLET on 03.07. 2009 13:25
      well,something else i have just found out is that the later,say mid 62 onwards frames of both the s/Rocket and also Goldies had the four forged/wrap around engine lugs,i saw two such frames at Stafford,one a 63 Goldie and the other a Tribsa but with GA7 frame number,these were obviously original lugs and not put on later.another interesting point is that on Monday just gone i spoke to someone who bought an RGS brand new in 1963 and he swears blind that it had the steering lock on the top yoke,the plot thickens!
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: magicflem on 29.06. 2010 09:21
John,
You mention that The Gold Star Book has an RGS supplement written by John Gleed.
I am considering building an RGS Replica and (at this point in time) unable to obtain a copy of this book.
Do you have a copy of or access to the particular "RGS" section or could you scan/photograph and post on this site for me?
I am particularly keen to see the comprehensive RGS parts list.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Kim

Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: MikeN on 29.06. 2010 15:45
Do you have a copy of or access to the particular "RGS" section or could you scan/photograph and post on this site for me?
I am particularly keen to see the comprehensive RGS parts list.


Lyford Classic Spares list "Rocket goldstar 1962 only supplement" £5.00 in their parts book section.
http://lyford-bsa.co.uk/pdf/bsapartscatalogue2010.pdf
Is that what you are looking for?
Mike
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: magicflem on 29.06. 2010 22:59
Mike,

Yes it is - John is kindly scanning and emailing me a copy.
Shall let you lads know how the build goes!!

Regards,

Kim
Title: Re: identifying a Rocket Goldie frame
Post by: jfligg on 30.06. 2010 08:18
Hi Guys
  My Goldie book doesnot have the John Gleed supplement?  Anyone know where I can get one?  Thanks Jeff