The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Bikes, Pictures, Stories & more => Chat, Offtopic, Meetings & Everything Else => Topic started by: RichardL on 01.12. 2017 02:26

Title: Something Interesting
Post by: RichardL on 01.12. 2017 02:26
Momentarily standing in for Neil (Greybeard) in posting something non-BSA   that should still be interesting to the menbers. Don't get excited, it's still motorcycles.

https://youtu.be/WR-FfL5Nf6Y

Richard L.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Sluggo on 01.12. 2017 08:12
I doubt thats the ONLY 3 bikes with a radial engine,, but it is cool!!!  *smiley4*

There is nothing quite like the sound of a radial,, I am no expert but I did do some training on them in school.
(Degree in Aerospace mechanical science, Community College of the US Air Force, European campus locations)
as well as in FAA college courses at a local college.

One of my practical tests was in the ignitions course modules at the local college was I had to rebuild, install and then time some radial engines, the 9 cyl was hard, but even more challenging was the double row 18cyl engines.  I would have to look up my old class notes as I still have them in the attic to tell you which specific ones they were.  But I was ticked off when Harold, the instructor asked me.,.
"Does it run because of you or in spite of you?".. Later I came to appreciate his wit & candor, its actually an excellent metaphor. (including leadership and mgmt).

You will notice that on a radial its typically an odd number of cylinders and timing them is challenging and WHY they have that stattaco bark and odd exhaust note.  The reason is every cyl has to give up a few degrees to get the whole assy to run.  It all works out of course,, but they can be a spine tingler to ride in when off their sweet spot   

This then gets into harmonic vibrations and how it can induce stress cracks and fractures at certain frequencies.  Several airplanes fell out of the sky with the wings sheared off with the passengers screaming to their deaths before engineers figured this out.

Nothing like the drone of a radial though,,  I read an interview of a German kid in WW2 who manned a anti aircraft battery and he said it would take 2 to 3 hours  for all the planes in the allied bomber flights to pass overhead they were so large,, He said it was the most unreal thing he ever heard or saw the constant droning of the engines and sheer size of the formations.  More than few people went mad from this.  Some years back I did some British bike work for a elderly German guy, He was a car-Motorcycle and airplane enthusiast and one day he asked If I wanted to ride down to the local airport and tour the B17 that travels around the US.  I jumped at the chance and while I have seen that plane multiple times there was special history there.

When we were inside the aircraft a chipper mid westerner asked us "Say there fellahs,, Have any of you ever seen one of these acft?"  Werner said "Jah!"   The friendly yokel came back with "Really!  Where at?".. Werner replied stoically with a glint in his eye.. "Over my house 1944"  I will NEVER forget the look that crossed every ones face.

We talked often of his life in Germany and his history, and life in the US.  My Dad was a few years older and served in the US Army Air Corp and along the Aluminum highway over the Himalayas in C46 & C47 flying supplies into China. Had he not washed out of gunnery school we would likely not had this conversation.
He was supposed to be a belly gunner and their mortality rate was very high.

Jeez,, see what happened here?? You get me going about airplanes and Ill jabber endlessly all day. Sorry to hi-jack your thread.

My Grandfather, Army Air Corp 1918-1919. Dad US Army Air Corp  WW2 (Enlisted based on advice from grandpa, ) Me, US Air Force, got out in 1989, extended enlistments multiple deployments and UN Peacekeeping mission middle east.  FAA licensed A&P. 
But my favorite quote was from US Marines I was partying with on a beach in Hawaii on a layover. Some young ladies walked by and we flirted. One asked... "Oh hey! Are you guys in the military?" Why yes,,
"Are you pilots? Do you fly?"  One of the marines answered with a straight face
"Only on the weekends baby, Only on the weekends!"
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: duTch on 01.12. 2017 09:31

 Had a look on my phone earlier, and BIG complaint is they weren't loud enough...I agree with Sluggo, radials sound GREAT. Occasionally they fly over and I pick 'em straight away....

 Have to say that those would be challenging to ride with as far as I can tell, the engine/wheel being the flywheel and not a lot of apparent de-clutch action..... *eek*
 Next clip is interesting too....

 My Dad applied for the Airforce but found out he was colour-blind, so ended up all over as a trucker
 
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: TomL on 01.12. 2017 09:35
Thank you for that, Richard, very cool, love the sound. Must be strange riding with all that weight in the front wheel.
Cheers Tom 🏍
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Greybeard on 01.12. 2017 10:13
Thanks for taking on the arduious task of Off-topicing.


I think I read a discussion about the Verdel not being genuine.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: cyclobutch on 01.12. 2017 13:08
On radials - I recently read this.

Incredible account within on his being substantially shot up on one occasion and just how resilient the old Jug was.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: jachenbach on 01.12. 2017 13:55
Just visited the Warhawk air museum in Nampa, ID the other day. Found the radial engines on display very interesting. Unless I misunderstood the poster at one of the German planes, the prop on it was mounted to the crankcase, which rotated, while the crankshaft remained stationary?????? From what I could see of it, that appeared to be the case.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Black Sheep on 01.12. 2017 14:46
Do not confuse rotary with radial. A rotary engine rotates around the fixed crankshaft. On a radial engine, the cylinders are arranged in a radial manner and the crankshaft rotates. On an aeroplane with a rotary engine, the gyroscopic forces are enormous. I am sure we have all done the old spinning bicycle wheel trick. Just imagine a complete engine spinning round like that. I have just read a flight test of a Sopwith Camel. No wonder so many pilots were killed in training, more than died in combat.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Greybeard on 01.12. 2017 14:52
...Sopwith Camel...

No throttle control; just a blip button to cut the sparks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq78ZocOAkY
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: morris on 01.12. 2017 14:59
Had the chance to buy a radial engine a couple of years ago. It was bigger than me!
Regret to not have bought it
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: cyclobutch on 01.12. 2017 16:58
The Camel was known for turning one way a whole lot easier than the other.

I knew that radials had odd numbers of cylinders. Say again why that is?
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: RogerSB on 01.12. 2017 17:18
Just imagine a complete engine spinning round like that. I have just read a flight test of a Sopwith Camel. No wonder so many pilots were killed in training, more than died in combat.


Yes, and when they cut out the aerodynamic forces kept them spinning and the same force sprayed petrol back all over the pilot (which often caught fire) and no parachutes in those days because the powers to be thought it would be just too easy for a pilot to get scared of burning to death and would jump using his parachute and then another valuable aeroplane would definitely be destroyed. The Germans had parachutes as did the observers in balloons.


Just imagine your feet catching on fire!
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: chaterlea25 on 01.12. 2017 18:23
Hi All,
Going back to radial motorcycle engines
To the best of my recollection there is a "Redrup" radial in the Sammy Miller Museum ??
some info here, https://thekneeslider.com/radial-engine-motorcycles-redrup-radial/

I seem to remember another British made radial where the engine sits still within the driving wheel ???

It would seem that radials are popular in the custom scene?  *eek*
https://www.google.ie/search?q=radial+motorcycle+engine&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi81_PXtOnXAhUE_qQKHTNaDyUQsAQIKA&biw=1198&bih=656

A few years ago there was a one off radial engined "Morgan style" three wheeler at the Stafford Auction
It was built to a very high standard by an aircraft engineer,
It has one off three cylinder engine using BMW R100 cylinders and heads, a Citroen GS gearbox and inboard disc
brakes, and a reversed Citroen trailing arm for the single rear wheel
I had to leave the auction early, but would have been very tempted to bid if I had stayed as it sold for what I thought
was a small price
http://anarchadia.blogspot.ie/2012/04/vintage-thing-no105-tarkus-radial.html

Enough Rambling
John

Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Joolstacho on 01.12. 2017 22:44
A company in Melbourne makes radials.

http://www.rotecengines.com/

Beautiful things... The guys at the Montreal Aircraft Museum fitted one in their Bleriot reproduction.

http://www.cahc-ccpa.com/en/

Well worth a visit if you're up that way, (my brother is a volunteer there).
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Black Sheep on 02.12. 2017 06:14
One of the problems with radial engines is the habit they have of wet sumping, but in this case oil seeps down to fill the lowest cylinder head. When you try to turn the engine over you can get a hydraulic lock which will gently force the cylinder head and barrel off the crankcase or bend the con rod. There was a case of a Piston Provost a few years ago where this happened. The seriously weakened engine blew up in flight and the pilot burned to death before the plane hit the ground. I had a look in my log book and it was one that I had flown. Rather relieved I wasn't flying it on that trip. And you think our wet sumping problems are serious...   
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Greybeard on 02.12. 2017 09:58
One of the problems with radial engines is the habit they have of wet sumping, but in this case oil seeps down to fill the lowest cylinder head. When you try to turn the engine over you can get a hydraulic lock which will gently force the cylinder head and barrel off the crankcase or bend the con rod.
Yikes! Surely, if that's a known thing the engineers would drain the heads before attempting to rotate the engine.
Quote
There was a case of a Piston Provost a few years ago where this happened. The seriously weakened engine blew up in flight and the pilot burned to death before the plane hit the ground.
I had a look in my log book and it was one that I had flown. Rather relieved I wasn't flying it on that trip.
WTF! Didn't know you were a flyer.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: ellis on 02.12. 2017 10:51
Or is that a fly by night   *????*

ELLIS
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Black Sheep on 02.12. 2017 14:14
It's a few years since I hung up my flying suit. The problem with that particular radial was that in private hands it was only being flown occasionally, giving it plenty of time for oil to seep gently past guides and rings. Whoever was flying it would hand pull the prop through for a couple of revs to check for a hydraulic lock. So far so good. But this particular pilot if he encountered a lock would turn the prop backwards and forwards until it was free to turn and then go for a start. This didn't clear all the oil and so over time the master con rod became over stressed and eventually failed. In its RAF time, there were very strict rules about having to run the engine up 3 times a week for 20 mins or remove the spark plugs to get any oil out. Getting slightly back on topic, all our wet sumping problems would be solved by running up our engines for 20 minutes 3 times a week. But would the neighbours appreciate it?   
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: RichardL on 02.12. 2017 15:05
A few things:

I thought the caption saying "only three" was referring to production models, but maybe that's also wrong.

When you think about it, the term "radial" is not the same as saying "symetrically radial". Would not this mean that every V-twin is a "radial" engine?

And last, when I went to John's third link, it hung the Safari browser on my iPad (not the whole pad). Had to reboot to get out of it. Don't know why. Maybe it has something to do with Apple not supporting ActiveX.

Richard
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: RichardL on 03.12. 2017 00:15
...and BMW, for that matter. Is there something fundamental in the meaning of "radial" that I'm missing?

Richard L.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: bsa-bill on 03.12. 2017 10:26
Quote
Is there something fundamental in the meaning of "radial" that I'm missing?

not as far as I'm concerned, perhaps a degree pedanitism (new word , I haven't heard it used before, I have some great words, wonderful words, actually the very best words in the world)

No I regard a radial engine as one having a complete set of cylinders equally spaced around 360 degrees of the crank or a Wankel type engine could also be termed radial.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: duTch on 03.12. 2017 12:41
 
Quote
......perhaps a degree pedanitism (new word , I haven't heard it used before, ...

 Me neither(either)- but it sounds good.. though I'd pedantically go with 'pedanticism' (not in my dictionary, and spell unchecker suggestion was 'pediatrician'.... sorry for tube pedantry, it's my OCD. *smile**conf*

 **there's an Aussie band called 'Tism' ...
 I'm no expert,  but always considered a radial engine to have a fixed crank/bang sticks assembly, and the barrels all integral with  the prop... *dunno*, whereas a Wankel has an internal rotor (rotary).....also  *dunno*

  **Just edited 'wake' to ' Wankel"...stoopid phone spell unchecker again *bash*
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: RichardL on 03.12. 2017 15:11
I regard a radial engine as one having a complete set of cylinders equally spaced around 360 degrees of the crank...

Well, BMW fits that description. Not sure I understand Dutch's description.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: duTch on 03.12. 2017 21:01
 
Quote
Not sure I understand Dutch's description.

 I fixed this bit in case that's what you mean; '  **Just edited 'wake' to ' Wankel"...stoopid phone spell unchecker again *bash*


 
 So this bit;
Quote
'm no expert,  but always considered a radial engine to have a fixed crank/bang sticks assembly, and the barrels all integral with  the prop...

 ......can be explained here;

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine

 I obviously was deludedly wrong *conf*

 as compared to this;
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_engine
....

 and this;

 
Quote
*dunno*, whereas a Wankel has an internal rotor (rotary).....also  *dunno*
...can best be explained here;

 
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine

 ...by my understanding what powers the RX series Mazdas , and the RE Suzukis from the '70s, and the ?? Noturn prototype.... *dunno*

 NB ***edit 20:53: ish; last quote erroneously said 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_engine'...now replaced with ;
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: RichardL on 03.12. 2017 21:21
Dutch,

Even the Wiki article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_engine) explained it wrong (as I read it). They say the top cylinder has the master rod attached to the cranshaft and I don't see that. I see a 5-position journal block where each rod has its own "sub-journal" (my term), then that block is attached to the main  crank's main journal. I realize all this is Radial 101 to Sluggo, but I've never thought of the how-to on these amusing engines.

Richard L.

Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: duTch on 04.12. 2017 01:53

 
Quote
....(as I read it). .....

   *eek*

 I only looked at the pictures go round and round
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: cyclobutch on 04.12. 2017 15:42
Though BMW have had a hand in a few radials of course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: chaterlea25 on 04.12. 2017 17:04
Hi Richard,
One conrod has to be a "Master" or the engine would not work,  without the master rod any cylinder firing or on comression would want to "twist" the big end block

If you study the maths the stroke of the master versus the slave cylinders is a little different as each slave big end
is moving relative to the master rod and big end centre  *conf2* *conf2* *pull hair out* *pull hair out*

Further on the Wiki page this photo shows the assembly better

John
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: RichardL on 04.12. 2017 22:34
THAT is clear, showing the master rod as integral with the carrier for the other rods. Having seen this, I took a closer look at the animation and see that the master rod is not pivoting on what looks like its journal, while the other rods are pivoting.

Thanks, John.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: jachenbach on 05.12. 2017 00:46
Well I had to do some more research and it seems that what appears to be a radial engine but with a stationary crankshaft was called a rotary engine, though not in any way similar to a Wankel. Apparently used in WWI and pictures I've found in Wikipedia are a Le Rhone. So Black Sheep, now I've figured out what you meant. Seems odd to me they did it this way, but I'm sure they had what they thought were good reasons.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Black Sheep on 05.12. 2017 07:05
The rotary engine is good at cooling cylinders as they are all whizzing round. Also it is comparatively light. One other tiny disadvantage (other than the gyroscopic effect) was that they used castor oil on a total loss system. The pilot would end a sortie in a pretty oily state and having ingested rather a lot, with predictable consequences.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Greybeard on 05.12. 2017 09:29
Oh shit!
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: duTch on 05.12. 2017 10:48
 uh-oh....I just had a squiz at my epic 'throw some more fuel on the fire ' post and am about to edit the last quote should read;

 
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
   
 back shortly...ok fixed post#23 as above  ^^^ 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine'
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: madsens on 05.12. 2017 10:50
https://youtu.be/ei9_1sqVJqM

the Red Baron.😂😂😂
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Black Sheep on 05.12. 2017 14:23
Now that could be challenging to ride! For a rotary engine start there is this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEEmdz7-Fk Skip the first 2 mins and the commentary. No throttle on these engines, just a magneto cutout button.
Title: Re: Something Interesting
Post by: Topdad on 05.12. 2017 15:07
No throttle but I believe a control to adjust mixture for cold starts and poss landing , quite right about the effects of castor oil, no pilot ever constipated !