The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: RoyC on 11.01. 2018 14:49
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Does anyone make an external oil filter for A7 A10 ?
Thanks,
Roy.
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Cannot believe you haven't found some of the discussions here about oil filters; the subject comes up quite often!!
Seems the most common type of oil filter is known as a Norton Commando filter but it's a generic filter housing that uses a fairly common filter canister. That filter will fit into the toolbox of swing-arm machines but folks have fitted them in other places. On the plunger the toolbox is too small for the filter so I mounted it on the front of the rear mudguard, just behind the gearbox.
Here is one supplier: http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyoil.htm (http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyoil.htm)
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Cannot believe you haven't found some of the discussions here about oil filters; the subject comes up quite often!!
Seems the most common type of oil filter is known as a Norton Dominator(?) filter but it's a generic filter housing that uses a fairly common filter canister. That filter will fit into the toolbox of swing-arm machines but folks have fitted them in other places. On the plunger the toolbox is too small for the filter so I mounted it on the front of the rear mudguard, just behind the gearbox.
Here is one supplier: http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyoil.htm
Thanks for that. I knew that I had seen one somewhere.
Looking at it (£48.50 + £5.95 P&P) it looks simular to one on ebay for
(£23.95 + £3.85 P+P) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Remote-oil-filter-kit-suits-classic-BSA-A7-A10-A50-A65-Motorcycles/331764146537?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Roy.
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G'day Roy, perhaps try Feked too. http://www.feked.com/oil-filter-mounting-block-head-norton-commando-models-universal-fit.html
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That one on ebay is the one I have fitted to my swinging arm A7 it is fitted inside the tool box but you will have make up a suitable mounting bracket and drill holes in the back for the oil pipes.
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That one on ebay is the one I have fitted to my swinging arm A7 it is fitted inside the tool box but you will have make up a suitable mounting bracket and drill holes in the back for the oil pipes.
I was considering drilling two bolt holes and mounting it inside and directly onto the back face of the toolbox, and two grometed holes for the pipes.
I will sus it out when it arrives.
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Roy let us know if the filter mount you get sent is made by RGM.
Have a look here, they sell the complete RGM kit and also parts for it separately (note: excluding vat prices):-
https://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/dept/in-line-oil-filters_d0191.htm (https://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/dept/in-line-oil-filters_d0191.htm)
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Roy let us know if the filter mount you get sent is made by RGM.
Have a look here, they sell the complete RGM kit and also parts for it separately (note: excluding vat prices):-
https://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/dept/in-line-oil-filters_d0191.htm (https://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/dept/in-line-oil-filters_d0191.htm)
Will do Roger, certainly looks the same body.
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Here is a photo of my oil filter as fitted to my A7 there is still room for a few tools and inside the regulator cover I have fitted a DVR2 electronic regulator.
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Bob, that's a neat compact job. Is your filter mount stamped RGM?
I like to keep a tool roll in there and my DVR2 is mounted exactly where your's is but not in a regulator cover. I've been thinking I should look at fitting an oil filter to my GF and seeing yours is taking up so little room makes it all the more likely.
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Yes it is RGM with a number 063139. It is a while since I fitted it and took the pipes out of the back and I believe I had to cut a corner off of the battery carrier to allow the pipes to clear.
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Bob, many thanks for your quick reply and that bit of additional info - always good to be forewarned.
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Roy let us know if the filter mount you get sent is made by RGM.
Have a look here, they sell the complete RGM kit and also parts for it separately (note: excluding vat prices):-
https://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/dept/in-line-oil-filters_d0191.htm (https://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/dept/in-line-oil-filters_d0191.htm)
It is RGM.
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Many thanks Roy. Will buy one.
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If its a Norton filter it will be good. *wink2* *wink2*
ELLIS
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Roger, why does it matter so much if it's stamped/made by RGM ?
I bought mine early '80's from- I think- the local British bike shop, and it has no stamping of significance (if any), but still works fine *dunno*
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Roger, why does it matter so much if it's stamped/made by RGM ?
Is it cos RGM is a Realy Good Make ?
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Hi DuTch, As Roy has said it's well made. Compared to the one Feked sells the RGM Norton Ltd casting looks to be far better and they usually sell for more than Roy paid, that's why I asked him if he received an RGM one.
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Ok- I'll have to look at mine closer next time I change the oil, but it doesn't leak any *good3*
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What fittings did members use to connect the 3/8" filter outlets to the A7/A10 oil lines ?
Roy.
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What fittings did members use to connect the 3/8" filter outlets to the A7/A10 oil lines ?
Roy.
I used good quality Jubilee clips
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What fittings did members use to connect the 3/8" filter outlets to the A7/A10 oil lines ?
Roy.
I used good quality Jubilee clips
I mean, joining the 3/8" i.d. pipe to the 5/16" i.d. BSA oil pipe.
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I've ordered a couple of these 8mm to 10mm.
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I don't understand why/how you have 1/4" when it should be 5/16" unless you're talking fitting size- 1/4" house (HOSE- Mansion brand *whistle* edited) will be a bit restrictive.... I bought a packet of 3/8" elbows from the refrigeration/air-con shop down the road, and soldered them on with short spigots of copper pipe onto the other end..(whatever size I could manipulate 8mm/ 5/16" hose over (probably 3/8")...
Not a swing arm and not a stock setup, but *dunno*
** edited 20/01/18 ; (HOSE- Mansion brand *whistle* edited)
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I'll just accept that they are different, as I'm sure my Plunger pipes are 5/16" O.D, & hoses I.D, so figured they'd all be the same.
Maybe I just used what ever fits best *dunno*
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Before I changed to a Morgo filter I used the Norton type supplied by Paul Goff fitted in tool box. It came with pipes and fittings and just fitted together no need for any adapters. The more joints the more chance you will find one that leaks a bit.
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Hi RoyC,
I presume that you still have the later Swingarm model A7SS. I think the earlier bikes had different oil fittings at the oil tank. Not sure when that changed. I bought a kit from Paul Goff (NORBSA), and was advised that the kit fits easily. That info may be relevant for early models. However for my 1961 GF, I had to cut the pipes that you have illustrated. I flared the tubes to prevent the hoses from slipping off and used jubilee clamps to secure the hoses. I also flared the filter head tubes as they were also unflared, but could not fit a flaring tool, so used a Philips Head screwdriver to fashion a flare. I have attached shots of the tube mods and the fittings around the oil tank. I have images of the Toolbox mods in an earlier post. I can dig out the reference if needed. There are plenty of photos of other peoples installation. The oil filter will only fit in the toolbox of later models with the curved toolbox cover.
Col
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Yes, I see what you've done with the pipes, good idea to flare them.
I was hoping to try and mount the filter underneath but not got the room with swinging arm models, so will probably put it in the toolbox.
Roy.
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The oil filter will only fit in the toolbox of later models with the curved toolbox cover.
No, that aint so, the oil filter will fit into the earlier flat lid box, or at least mine does (Paul Goff kit).
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I don't understand why/how you have 1/4" when it should be 5/16" unless you're talking fitting size- 1/4" house will be a bit restrictive.... I bought a packet of 3/8" elbows from the refrigeration/air-con shop down the road, and soldered them on with short spigots of copper pipe onto the other end..(whatever size I could manipulate 8mm/ 5/16" hose over (probably 3/8")...
Not a swing arm and not a stock setup, but *dunno*
rather large`a 1/4 house, cheers
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hi guys, some time ago i made a filter based on similar on the market, here are a couple of pics, cheers
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rather large`a 1/4 house, cheers
Reply #25 now edited for proof readers *red* *lol* (HOSE- Mansion brand *whistle* edited)
Nice Filter KP- is that based on the Rocet3 filters # 70-6571 ? and did the Tridents use similar insert (?)
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OK, here's one! What about oil filter element by-pass pressure. High or low best for our bikes oil return?
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OK, here's one! What about oil filter element by-pass pressure. High or low best for our bikes oil return?
Shouldn’t matter. You’re not going to run with a completely choked filter?
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Shouldn’t matter. You’re not going to run with a completely choked filter?
Hopefully not but I always wonder about this:-
If the differential of oil pressure into the filter to out of the filter is too high then the by-pass valve opens allowing oil to by-pass the filter *sad2* . What if a new, clean filter's designed by-pass pressure is too low for the return oil pressure from the engine? *conf* . The valve would open allowing oil to flow. We look in our oil tanks and see a nice flow of returning oil *smile* . Would that not make it important to have a filter element fitted with the correct by-pass pressure for a particular engine?
Just a thought.
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What if a new, clean filter's designed by-pass pressure is too high for the return oil pressure from the engine? *conf* . The valve would open allowing oil to flow.
I don’t understand.
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I don’t understand.
I'm not preaching here as I'm not sure myself but here's how I think about it - and I may well be wrong. Also please substitute too low for too high in the quote (I'll amend in my post).
For example with a filter element with a designed by-pass pressure of around 23 psi the valve reacts when it senses a certain resistance (say a blocked filter) it then allows oil to by-pass the filter so it can continue to flow. On the other hand if you fit a filter with a designed by-pass pressure of a lot less, say 10 psi, and your return oil pressure is higher than that wouldn't the valve sense the higher pressure and trigger a by-pass *sad2* *????*
I know filters for different vehicles have different designed by-pass pressures so it can't be just about whether it screws into the housing ok. Most of the filters we buy, for example for the RGM Norton type of housing, were actually designed for cars, such as the 2CV, Dyane, Peugeot, Talbot, etc.
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Bypass pressure lower than a BSA- you kiddin' ? *dunno*
Fairly sure that was what Sluggo was suggesting a little while ago, maybe go read his posts on the matter *eek*
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Isn't a filter bypass, if fitted, usually in the header; a ball and spring? I don't see any kind of bypass in the filter cartridges I use.
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Bypass pressure lower than a BSA- you kiddin' ? *dunno*
What is an A10s oil return pressure back into the oil tank? I don't know - but I'd like to know.
GB, attached is a diagram - but not a very good one I'm afraid.
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Bypass pressure lower than a BSA- you kiddin' ? *dunno*
What is an A10s oil return pressure back into the oil tank? I don't know - but I'd like to know.
GB, attached is a diagram - but not a very good one I'm afraid.
The bypass route in a filter only operates if the filter itself restricts flow through it to the extent the pressure drop across it exceeds the designed bypass pressure, it makes no difference what the pressures are elsewhere in the system. So if the bypass filter operates at 10psi, then the bypass will operate when there is 50psi one side of the filter and 40 the downstream side, or 30/20 or 20/10 etc etc.
If there is a restriction downstream of the filter (say in return pipe the inside the tank) then this will raise the pressure equally throughout the system so BOTH sides of the filter, thus not affecting the bypass operation at all.
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So perhaps if the same filter was left in for 100,000 miles it might start to bypass?
Regular old bike oil changes (2,000 miles max for me) and filter change with every other oil change and the bypass shouldn't ever come into play.
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Quote from: duTch on Today at 07:48:41
Bypass pressure lower than a BSA- you kiddin' ? *dunno*
What is an A10s oil return pressure back into the oil tank? I don't know - but I'd like to know.
Ok I was being flippant :! aka 'takin' the *** (out of BSA)
I imagine it should be easy enough to add a 'Tee' piece into the return line with a pressure gauge attached- if one should be so inclined ?
To be honest I don't think there'd be much pressure at all, as there's not really anything to restrict the flow until it reaches the filter, and the scavenge side of the pump is more of a 'volume flow' *dunno* .
We also have to keep in mind that probably *most* engines with filters have wet sumps, and the filter downstream from the pump before the feed to the engine/bearings, and the filter cops the full flow from the pump, which generally I'd say is 'feed only' - no scavenge/no need, so a whole different story (no real comparison).
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My son disabled the bypass valve on his firebird (I know it's a car) so that all the oil had to go through the filter.
One day he had no oil pressure, he checked everything to find out what was wrong. In the end he changed the oil filter and the oil pressure returned. The filter had only done 3,200 miles.
That means that past 3,200 miles none of the oil was being filtered.
From then on we have always changed our oil and filters every 3,000 miles.
So, how do we know how many miles a 2cv filter on a BSA is good for ?
Roy.
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....So, how do we know how many miles a 2cv filter on a BSA is good for ?
Roy.
I guess when you no longer see with your eyes no oil returning to the oil tank, it's time to call Houston...?
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My son disabled the bypass valve on his firebird (I know it's a car) so that all the oil had to go through the filter.
One day he had no oil pressure, he checked everything to find out what was wrong. In the end he changed the oil filter and the oil pressure returned. The filter had only done 3,200 miles.
That means that past 3,200 miles none of the oil was being filtered.
From then on we have always changed our oil and filters every 3,000 miles.
So, how do we know how many miles a 2cv filter on a BSA is good for ?
Roy.
Unless you stick a pressure gauge either side of it you won’t know, it’s an act of faith I suppose. Even then there will be variances between brands. There will be filters that are better at filtering small particles out that are more prone to getting clogged as a consequence, and some with more surface area of paper that will be less prone to clogging, and some that only filter big particles out and will never clog. The only sure thing is that a filter will almost certainly do SOME good.
I don’t care if a filter has a bypas or not. It will get changed at max 1500 Miles anyway, surely any filter will not get clogged in 1500 Miles! (But even that is an act of faith).
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So if the bypass filter operates at 10psi, then the bypass will operate when there is 50psi one side of the filter and 40 the downstream side, or 30/20 or 20/10 etc etc.
If there is a restriction downstream of the filter (say in return pipe the inside the tank) then this will raise the pressure equally throughout the system so BOTH sides of the filter, thus not affecting the bypass operation at all.
Kiwgf, I had to read that over and over to understand it, even though I know you explained it very well. This is something that has puzzled me for some time and I 'somehow' got a certain way of thinking about it in my head so I thought this oil filter topic was a good time to air it. I 'think' I understand it now.
So just to sure, talking oil return pressure from engine to the 'IN' side of a spin-on remote filter: I somehow got it in my head that if the incoming oil pressure to the filter was greater than the designed by-pass setting it would be sensed and would automatically trigger a by-pass of oil, regardless of the condition and effectiveness of the filter element. But from what you say, in reality it actually senses the pressure either side of the filter element (i.e. in and out) and if the difference is not greater than the filters by-pass setting then all will be well *smile* .
Regarding Roy's question and duTch's reply: If the filter became blocked surely you will still see oil returning to the tank because of the filter's by-pass feature *eek* . Also, as far as I can make out if a filter does get clogged up it still isn't black and white and you can get some oil by-passing the filter element and some still going through it - until it gets fully blocked and then all oil is by-passed. Correct me if I'm wrong.
And why does my text keep going tiny *sad2* ???
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back in the day of Citroen CVs and many others using mineral oil and paper filters oils were changed at 3,000 miles 5000 at a stretch (correct me if my memory is wrong), some used to change the oil but change the filter every other oil change.
this is probably more than most of us do in a year so an annual change should be safest bet
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I cut one of my 850 Commando filters apart after it had been in for two oil changes. It was nowhere near clogged, just a little discoloured. It did have a few tiny flecks of metal here and there.
It seemed like changing the filter every four thousand miles might be overkill, but it's not a big cost or hard to do.
Glen
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I suppose today we all do our best to save our BSAs from any catastrophe, not only to conserve them but it’s very expensive otherwise.
I rode Golden Flash’s in the mid 60s to mid 70's as everyday transport. One of them (the one in my profile photo) I rode at least 400 miles just about every weekend for over a year, unless I was home on leave, to travel back and forth from my unit’s barracks in Portsmouth to see my girlfriend in Plymouth. In those days I didn’t have the time or the inclination to change the oil regularly, probably once a year and topping it up in between. There was no fitting of filters in those days either and my Golden Flash always performed superbly. One thing that did always strike me on those journeys was that after about 50 miles the engine would seem a lot quieter and would just hum along doing about 65 - 70 mph where I could on the roads then. It never let me down - nor did it start knocking and banging.
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And why does my text keep going tiny *sad2* ???
So, I'm not the only one having that problem! I write most of my forum stuff using this Android tablet and it often inserts a tiny size font tag when I'm editing. Have to Preview and take out the tags. Flipping annoying.
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See pic. I've found that by highlighting the text (you can select all the text if easier) and then clicking this symbol it changes to the correct size.
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Yes, I guess that should work; it's the 'Remove all formatting' button; I'll use that next time it happens. Thanks for reminding me about it!
Apologies for going off topic.
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Hi Roy and All,
The filters we use on our BSA's are designed to filter quantities of oil that are measured in pints/gallons or litres per minute *ex*
The capacity of the BSA pumps is tiny by comparison, so in my opinion the filters do not get to anywhere near their
designed filtration capacity before owners change them
John
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That's interesting John (A101960) that the Paul Goff Filter fits into the flat lid toolbox. That would be the EMGO little black filter.? Many bloggers say they won't fit, but consider me enlightened. (Not that I have a flat lid toolbox). Is it bolted directly to the back of the toolbox to give enough clearance.?
One comment I would make about the filter bypass valve. Some filters do and some don't have them. However, they would only ever open when the filter is near blocked, as the A10 scavenge pump flowrate is so low, as others have said. The pump is capable of high pressures though, and if the filter was blocked, the pressure would build up until the pressure forced the valve to open. So the pressure rating of the filter bypass has nothing to do with the pump oil pressure until the filter gets blocked.
In response to another question, I also read that on the early A7's, the oil pump passes 126.6 pints per hour and the return pump passes 177 pph at 5000 rpm which may help. That came from a blog and was reported to have been said by Bert Hopwood, BSA's Chief Designer to a reporter from "The Motorcycle". I don't know if the later pumps had larger capacity before the A65 came along.
Cheers Colin
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....That's interesting John (A101960) that the Paul Goff Filter fits into the flat lid toolbox. That would be the EMGO little black filter.? Many bloggers say they won't fit, but consider me enlightened. (Not that I have a flat lid toolbox). Is it bolted directly to the back of the toolbox to give enough clearance.?.......
I'm using a Emgo jobby one, and it is a bit shorter than the original *red* one (origin unknown)...works better for me on my custom-ish Plunger
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..That's interesting John (A101960) that the Paul Goff Filter fits into the flat lid toolbox. That would be the EMGO little black filter.? Many bloggers say they won't fit, but consider me enlightened. (Not that I have a flat lid toolbox). Is it bolted directly to the back of the toolbox to give enough clearance.?.......
The picture below shows one of Goffy's filters fitted in a flat top toolbox. I didn't use the supplied stencil to cut the holes as that would have required me to cut the rear mudguard as well. I also had to omit the supplied spacers or the filter would have sat too proud to close the lid of the toolbox. I found that I could achieve a bit of clearance behind the filter using a couple of washers. I know it's going to *** oil all over the place when I change the filter, but a rag will sort that out.
Cheers
Tim
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G'day Tim.
I think if you take the oil line off where it exits the motor a few minutes before you remove the filter it will minimize the mess.
Cheers
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Muskrat said
G'day Tim.
I think if you take the oil line off where it exits the motor a few minutes before you remove the filter it will minimize the mess.
Cheers
I like that idea!
Cheers
Tim
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...take the oil line off where it exits the motor a few minutes before you remove the filter it will minimize the mess....
Don't disagree with that, but when I installed mine I tried to locate it so it was vertical (screwing up onto the head) but no way...ended up horizontal.
No big deal, I find it just as easy to just undo the two 5/16"unf bolts holding the shebang on and drag it out and let it drain however...
**edited** forgot to add the pic for filter orientation... now done
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Just spent 5 mins looking at Dutch's picture before I realised what had held my attention was the sunshine showing through the rear wheel, suffering fro SAD or what ???????????????
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As my filter is mounted vertically on the mudguard behind the gearbox I am able to remove the cartridge without mess. Also it's not too obvious.
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hi guys, no room in my tool box for filter, cheers
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Just spent 5 mins looking at Dutch's picture before I realised what had held my attention was the sunshine showing through the rear wheel, suffering fro SAD or what ???????????????
Yep- I keep a couple of boxes of sunshine in a dark cupboard for times when the background is a bit dark, works exceptionally well at night :!
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First of all, I must apologise to Dutch. The pipes are 5/16" (8mm)
Finished getting the filter fitted today.
Removed the partition to make more room.
Marked out on back of toolbox space between mudguard and battery.
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A couple more pictures.
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hi guys, Roy you have made a very neat job of that filter install well done, cheers
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Roy, you can do mine next time *smile* .
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Neat Solution Roy. How did you secure the short length of hoses onto the Filter Housing tubes? ie. between filter head and toolbox rear.? Was there room for clamps.?
Colin
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Neat Solution Roy. How did you secure the short length of hoses onto the Filter Housing tubes? ie. between filter head and toolbox rear.? Was there room for clamps.?
Colin
Jubilee clips Colin. Yes, plenty of room.
The housing tubes don't poke through the toolbox casing at all.
The short lengths of 10mm tube were fitted before the filter housing was bolted into the box.
All of the tubes were assembled before the toolbox was fitted in place.
The last joint was made where marked in the picture below.
Roy.
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Posted by: RoyC
« on: February 01, 2018, 03:45:42 »
First of all, I must apologise to Dutch. The pipes are 5/16" (8mm)
No apology needed, but thanks...I have to ask though that you must have edited your post without a note to say so??? I only ask because any subsequent reference to 1/4" 'houses' « Reply #23 on: January 19, 2018, 13:03:05 »
, will be confusing for later readers *conf*, so if you can edit in a ' *edited* ' might be handy ?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 20:57:57 »
Quote
Quote from: Greybeard on January 18, 2018, 20:29:17
Quote from: RoyC on January 18, 2018, 20:25:31
What fittings did members use to connect the 3/8" filter outlets to the A7/A10 oil lines ?
Roy.
I used good quality Jubilee clips
I mean, joining the 3/8" i.d. pipe to the 5/16" i.d. BSA oil pipe.
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Posted by: RoyC
« on: February 01, 2018, 03:45:42 »
First of all, I must apologise to Dutch. The pipes are 5/16" (8mm)
No apology needed, but thanks...I have to ask though that you must have edited your post without a note to say so??? I only ask because any subsequent reference to 1/4" 'houses' « Reply #23 on: January 19, 2018, 13:03:05 »
, will be confusing for later readers *conf*, so if you can edit in a ' *edited* ' might be handy ?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 20:57:57 »
I understand what you are saying Dutch, will do in future *red*
I edited the ref to ¼ in order not to mislead any one wanting to do the same oil filter mod.
Roy.
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Just one thing (a bit off topic), re; your reply ^^, is something that happens a lot that your (and many others elsewhere) reply seems to have caught up inside the 'quote' , I only image that you've started typing inside the quote (?)
Sometimes makes posts really hard to read and figure out which is the quote and what is not- not pickin' on you, just some that I've been meaning to mention many times,seems a good time. *smile*
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Reply, off topic.
I haven't got a clue how it happened Dutch. *dunno*
I don't even know I've done it until I post it. *conf2*
Not too good on computers. (Not too good at anything come to that).
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Roy, you've done well so far, and I can't say I haven't done forum felonies either without realizing (more than likely have done *smile*)
I'll leave 'off topic 'there before...the Off Topic Plodsta comes along *eek*
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Reply, off topic.
I haven't got a clue how it happened Dutch. *dunno*
I don't even know I've done it until I post it. *conf2*
Not too good on computers. (Not too good at anything come to that).
If you click the 'Preview' button you can check the post before you send it.