The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Frame => Topic started by: RoyC on 31.03. 2018 11:30
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Has anyone found a proven, long term, ethanol proof tank sealer. ?
There seem to be a lot of sealers out there but, there are a few stories about sealer failing after a short period.
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I used POR15, not to seal a leak but to deal with rust. It's been solid now for six years: https://goo.gl/LE9DD8. I'm in the UK; we may not have as much ethanol as other places.
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I used POR15, not to seal a leak but to deal with rust. It's been solid now for six years: https://goo.gl/LE9DD8. I'm in the UK; we may not have as much ethanol as other places.
Thanks GB. That is what I want it for.
My tank is pretty much rust free and I would like it to stay that way.
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I used POR15...
Thanks GB. That is what I want it for.
My tank is pretty much rust free and I would like it to stay that way.
I'm sure you are about to be advised not to do what I did. Cleaning the rust out is supposed to be quite easy, (as long as you have some nails and screws a cement mixer and an old duvet).
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I used POR15, not to seal a leak but to deal with rust. It's been solid now for six years: https://goo.gl/LE9DD8. I'm in the UK; we may not have as much ethanol as other places.
Was the £49.99 kit enough for your tank (4 gall) ?
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I used POR15, not to seal a leak but to deal with rust. It's been solid now for six years: https://goo.gl/LE9DD8. I'm in the UK; we may not have as much ethanol as other places.
Was the £49.99 kit enough for your tank (4 gall) ?
Yes, it was. Shop around; I'm sure I've seen that kit cheaper.
Tip: When I needed to thoroughly dry the tank after degreasing I wedged the hose from our vacuum cleaner in the filler hole using rags and left it sucking air through from the tap holes for half an hour. ;)
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Hi,
I used them all over the years ,starting with Kreem,Caswell, Tank Care Products and POR15.
POR 15 is the easiest to use and does not require a silly temperature of 55C to flow.(Tank Care Stuff)
As well , you get some patching mat to cover holes you might have at the bottom of your tank, works a treat!
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I used POR15, not to seal a leak but to deal with rust. It's been solid now for six years: https://goo.gl/LE9DD8. I'm in the UK; we may not have as much ethanol as other places.
I've ordered a kit, two 3/8 BSP plugs and 1/4 & 3/8 BSP taps to clean out the threads.
Do I need to protect the paintwork ?
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I've ordered a kit, two 3/8 BSP plugs and 1/4 & 3/8 BSP taps to clean out the threads.
Do I need to protect the paintwork ?
Take great care to not get any of that stuff on anything that you don't want it on. It sticks like shyte!
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I used Tapox on my A7SS which gave an excellent covering, so far durable.
The main difficulty I had was ventilating the tank to get the sealant solvent out and prevent runs.
I used a small CPU fan off an old PC motherboard in the finish, left it running half covering the filler opening for a week and all was well.
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I used Tapox on my A7SS which gave an excellent covering, so far durable.
The main difficulty I had was ventilating the tank to get the sealant solvent out and prevent runs.
I used a small CPU fan off an old PC motherboard in the finish, left it running half covering the filler opening for a week and all was well.
I was thinking about using the vacuum cleaner like GB and my late wife's hair dryer to warm the tank from the outside.
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You got me worrying about whether I should worry about this now, so I have gone and looked at the A7 tank and just a few small reddish patches, not even sure its rust. So is there any point in lining a ‘good’ tank that has not rusted whilst in use for the last 5 years.
Dam looked in Norton tank and its got a ‘nice’ layer of what is defiantly rust so regardless of reply one to do I suppose.
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Hi Roy,
So is there any point in lining a ‘good’ tank that has not rusted whilst in use for the last 5 years.
NO *ex*
Electrolysis is the easiest way to clean the other tank and then preserve the insides with a coat of oil if not in use
John
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Electrolysis is the easiest way to clean the other tank and then preserve the insides with a coat of oil if not in use
Its in use but I had not looked inside like that before.
Electrolysis, electric in and around a petrol tank (even empty and cleaned) one little spark and *warn* *problem* *sad*
Did a search MikeB says he did it but every article I can see talks about immersing the object in a container. Now the outside paint is good on the tank so I dont really want to do that. Could I just put the liquid inside then connect the tank to a the negative side of a battery and carefully put a positive electrode into the liquid in the tank without touching the sides.
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Hi All,
Could I just put the liquid inside then connect the tank to a the negative side of a battery and carefully put a positive electrode into the liquid in the tank without touching the sides.
Yes, That is how I did the tanks
I made a wooden bung to act as an insulator, driled a hole through it for a push fit to a bent metal rod
The only thing is that you need to remove the bung and clean the rust off it fairly often at the start
Connect a headlamp bulb and fuse in series with the circuit to keep the current limited *bright idea*
This also protects against short circuits *warn*
John
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In my experience electrolysis only works 'line of sight' so may need to make some clever electrodes.
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John, Could you remind me of the polarity, electrode +ve and tank -ve? I have one I would like to clean up. Cheers.
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Hi Ray
I have to look it up every time *conf*
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/
John
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Thanks John, maybe I won't use stainless for an anode this time! There is always something to learn.
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I used to get metal tanks relined with tin,, Place went out of business but old school restaurants, institutions and schools would replate with liquid tin their cook wear, So a old gure told me when restoring early American tanks (he was a leading authority on American Indian bikes) they would weld up any leaks and have the tanks dipped at a local plating shop.
I did multiple tanks like this and worked well. Nice thick coating inside and out. To prep for paint I hand sanded the exterior starting with 120 grit up to 400 and then a zinc or galvanized compatible primer. Insides looked like chrome when the customer looked inside, and sealed up any seams, pinholes or weak spots. Would never rust ever.
It USED to be metal tanks were treated with such plating, not all but many. It does make it challenging to weld on later, but for a restoration or show bike it worked well. (Assuming you properly mount it with rubber cushions).
The reason it has become important again to seal a tank is because alcohol based fuels (Oxygenated they like to call it here) is somewhat hydroscopic and fuels with alcohol in it tend to have a lot of water as well in the fuel and it separates. Then rusts out a tank along where it puddles up or sits. (Which explains the odd corrosion in some tanks).
I strive to only use alcohol free fuels in my motorcycles, and when I cant I drain the fuel and flush at first opportunity.
If using a tank sealer it is ALL ABOUT the tank prep!,,you have to have a very clean etched surface for it to stick too.. WHich means agitation or acid etch to give the surface some bite. Then proper rinse. Highly toxic but trichlor or MEK works well for rinse, Or some aerosol brake clean solvent after a lacquer thinner preflush.
Use compressed air turned way down in the tank neck or a shop vac.
I have used POR15 a few times. Seemed okay. But I prefer Bill Hirsch tank sealer designed for alcohol based fuels. I use it in fiberglass tanks as well. I have a long screed on tips and tricks,, tired and long day so not right now.
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re electrolysis:
MikeB says he did it but every article I can see talks about immersing the object in a container
it worked fine with fluid in the tank, like John said. make sure the goop doesn't seep out on to your tank - cover it well, or much better use carbon rods, not steel, and then there is almost no goop. (if you use steel there's heaps of orange foamy stuff - not nice and i believe harmful to paint).
it may be line of sight, but it just chews away at the rust (not the steel of the tank) so eventually it gets to the remote spots/corners etc for a full cleansing.
I decided not to use POR15/similar as if the tank ever needs welding up what are you going to do? my b33 has por15 and it looks like future trouble. just clean the tank (electrolysis) and keep gas in it, or lightly oil. done.
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While I have looked at some of the ideas on using electrical current and anodes on metal, and there is a wealth of articles and youtube videos on it, I am not certain its the best option for every steel tank. I spoke to several plating shops and tuning the current, flow and terminals as well as what materials to use is a science of sorts. I too have heard that in a complicated compound shaped vessel like a petrol tank it could be challenging to get proper coverage.
Most of his shop is gone now, but used to be Starbright plating nearby, and he was quite skilled at chrome,nickel, copper and brass plating and it was interesting how he arranged the terminals to get even coverage. Adding metal and removing it with electro-chemical means is basically the same process.
It has value, but its not the only one. But I would enjoy any articles, diagrams and instructional materials others have used, sourced or created and I believe would be helpful to others.
** Fair disclosure ** I have a LOT of rusty stuff! (So I am very interested in real world applied feedback)
I dont know what others can source, but I use a LOT of OSPHO which is a chemical converter using a blend of acids. It works quite well,,, It converts from Iron Oxide to inert Iron Nitrate which is also a excellent prepaint rust converter and improves adhesion as well as prevents future outbreaks. What many people call
"RUST" is merely Iron Oxide but there is no such thing as "RUST". Its simply a term for one type of corrosion .
See: http://www.ospho.com/
" HOW SKYCO OSPHO WORKS
When applied to rusted surfaces, it resists/retards rust in chemical change on drying to a tough, hard surface ready for priming. A paint job will last longer after an application of OSPHO because subsequent paint coating securely attaches itself so that moisture and oxygen normally do not attack the metal. OSPHO is water-thin, can cover a larger area than paint, and goes on easily. It is equally effective for exterior and interior work alike. SKYCO OSPHO: a balanced formula of Phosphoric, Dichromate, Wetting Agents and Extenders . . . compounded exclusively by the Skybryte Company since 1947 ... recommended by paint manufacturers."
So, for some applications, I would suggest merely treated metal with OSPHO instead and have done it often on many gas tanks.
I dont wish to be dismissive but I do not see how using oil is effective as petrol/gasoline is a pretty effective solvent and would rapidly wash away any oil. A reality of modern fuels is ALL of it contains at least a percentage of water and if any alcohol, then its going to draw in more water. Fuel storage tanks have improved in the US but all tanks leak to some degree so water is in there. You cant get rid of it all without distilling or seperation methods the average person does not have access too.
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I've used this stuff on various things.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/263160795761?chn=ps&dispItem=1&adgroupid=54713458289&rlsatarget=pla-413909075476&abcId=1133936&adtype=pla&merchantid=119451212&poi=&googleloc=9045916&device=t&campaignid=1057753394&crdt=0&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F710-134428-41853-0%252F2%253Fmpre%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.co.uk%25252Fi%25252F263160795761%25253Fchn%25253Dps%252526dispItem%25253D1%2526itemid%253D263160795761%2526targetid%253D413909075476%2526device%253Dt%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9045916%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D1057753394%2526adgroupid%253D54713458289%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-413909075476%2526abcId%253D1133936%2526merchantid%253D119451212%2526gclid%253DCj0KCQjwzIzWBRDnARIsAAkc8hG7uoSPcmxMQ3YXSeR_n-W6XARbeB8a8bbOq8LKyi3tfhJ18z5_BAwaAkq4EALw_wcB%2526srcrot%253D710-134428-41853-0%2526rvr_id%253D1487431382875
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I can't comment on sealers, but a while ago had a read and look at clips about the reverse-electrolysis, and I may have read something wrong (or read something wrong *conf*)...but had the notion that there was a process that rather than just making the oxide 'flaky', actually *ADDED* material to the tank surface- much like plating...but I guess that may depend on the electrolyte/sacrificial electrode composition/direction of flow.......*dunno*
GB posted while I was thinking, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's fairly much just Phosphoric acid ?
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GB, I would be curious how that Jennolite material compares as well as some real world feedback on how well it works. It sounds like different process than OSPHO and probably far less dangerous/toxic but the question is how EFFECTIVE it is.
*eek*I am NOT saying one product fits all *eek*
There is other products here in the US, some of which I have used, some not. RUSTMORT seems very popular with some people, there was another we called Kitty Hairs but I cant recall the brand name, but it was an infused fiberglass matt and jelly with rust converters and its used for heavily corroded and swiss cheese body panels on cars and trucks. It hardens into a smooth sandable resin type material that also prevents further Iron Oxide/Rust.
Naval Jelly is one I have used a lot, and I have been experimenting with a variety of rust eating jelly/oils that are citrus based and many down at the ship yards are using it as it can drop right into the harbor waters and no environmental harm or flush it down your sink. So far it appears they do eat rust off of parts but mixed results.
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As to Dutch,, yes, you are correct on the electro process, you can REMOVE or ADD metal based on current flow and polarity. Thats basically zinc, cad or Nickel plating in a nutshell if you use a sacrificial anode as it transfers the metal off the anode and deposits it onto the part. Or reverse it.
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I will be looking for a new vendor next weekend, (We have the Western US's largest auto jumble in town, approx 5000 vendor booths, 2 facilities adjacent to each other) but we used to have a sprayable filler guy locally and his methods were quite promising and interesting but the problem was his prices were insanely high and he appeared to be mentally deranged and unstable. 20 years ago talked to a few who used him, and nothing since, It was on my list to give him a sacrificial part as a test piece and never got around to it.
BUT,,, here is how it works:
Basically like a liquid sand blaster but the media was liquified mix of Alloys kind of like spray foam insulation only this stuff was hard as steel and went from a thick slurry liquid to hard and cured metal.
If you had a badly corroded body panel, holed tank, or other cancer stricken metal you sprayed this on and then took a grinder and body sanders and finished it into shape. It bonded so tight to the parent metal it became one like powder coat paint only more like welding.
For some cars,, this had a lot of promise, but less so on a motorcycle.
Here is the original companies website:
http://www.rustbustersllc.com/www.rustbustersllc.com/rustbustervoicetrack.html
Here is a slightly more coherent version in a Farm newsletter:
https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=14550
"Rust Buster" Spray Welder Fills Big Holes In Sheet Metal
Do you have an old pickup that runs great but has a body full of big rusty holes?
Rodney and Garry Rose think they can help. It took 20 years to perfect their wire-feed "rustbuster" Spray Welder, which fills big gaps in sheet metal by spraying molten zinc into the rusted-out holes.
"You can repair auto bodies, augers, metal siding, or any other metal that's rusted or corroded," says Rodney, who operates a sand-blasting business in Portland, Oregon in addition to staying busy manufacturing and promoting his spray welder. Garry has a similar business in Salt Lake City, Utah.
"We started with this idea in 1978 and finally had a machine that worked the way we wanted in 1998," Rodney says.
To fill a hole, you first sandblast the area to be repaired. "All the rust or corrosion must be removed for best results," he says. Then you use the spray welder to rebuild the piece, filling in any holes and smoothing over pits. The spray welder actually melts zinc wire and sprays it over the surface.
Once the surface has been restored by this process, it has about the same feel as 30-grit sandpaper. Once he's rebuilt a piece, Rose applies a primer on the surface and then smoothes it with a block sander. "Once that's done, it's ready to finish," he says.
Besides being useful for auto body work and siding repair, Rose says it can be used to rebuild steel handrails, rusted pipe gates, or in restoring antique tractors and farm machinery.
To demonstrate the machine locally, Rose completely refinished a 1975 MG Midget sports car. Both rear quarter panels were nearly gone because of rust before Rose used his spray welder on it. Now it looks like new. "I sanded it down and put a clear coat on the surface, so it looks like a galvanized car now," he says.
The Rose brothers call their company Rustbusters. They sell the Spray Welder as part of a package that includes the Rustbuster name, the machine, training needed to operate it, and, importantly, rights to a protected territory in which to use it. They will bring the spray welder to you and give you on-site training in its use, all for a total of $25,000. If you go to Portland, Oregon, for training at the Rustbuster factory, you can get set up for $20,000. So far, they have assigned nearly 20 protected territories, mostly in the West and Midwest.
Contact: FARM SHOW Followup, Rustbusters, P.O. Box 341, Clackamas, Ore. 97015 (ph 800 600-3203; Email: info@rustbusters.com; Website: rustbusters.com).
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GB what happens with Jenolite when you need to get your tank welded or re-chromed, do you know?
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GB what happens with Jenolite when you need to get your tank welded or re-chromed, do you know?
Sorry, no. I used Jenolite Rust Convertor on steel parts of my Austin Seven car prior to painting. Seemed to do what it was supposed to do. I imagine that it's based on Phosphoric acid.