The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Bikes, Pictures, Stories & more => Chat, Offtopic, Meetings & Everything Else => Topic started by: A10 JWO on 22.04. 2018 16:05

Title: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: A10 JWO on 22.04. 2018 16:05
I have rebuilt my front hub, new shoes etc. I have fitted the wheel. I connected up the correct BSA NOS brake cable with the correct adjuster on the Lucas levers. The cable is on full adjustment to take up the slack ? I appreciate there are adjusters on these two leading shoes types, but will they take up the cable slack in the cable. Seems like the cable is about 1" too long. Thank you.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 23.04. 2018 01:47
 I guess it really only depends on the difference between inner and outer cables  *dunno2*,  the one I'm using has 8,1/2" difference with minimal adjustment at the top....I am using a different after-market lever though which is about 7.5mm fatter at the hand lever end, and 1,/8" pivot to cable instead of standard 7/8" (which is probably irrelevant.
 It works quite well, and is only on I think the second notch of shoe adjustment, even though the whole plate was second hand when I bought it ~7 years ago, and done ~12k miles since...
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Rex on 23.04. 2018 09:01
Sounds like the same old scenario when buying cables (alleged NOS or not) in that the inner is too long and needs the adjuster screwing out to the max just to make it work. Useless long-term, as there'll be no adjustment left to take up the slack either through bedding-in or wear, so time to break out the soldering iron. Won't take five minutes with a nice new and non-greasy inner.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Greybeard on 23.04. 2018 09:22

 I guess it really only depends on the difference between inner and outer cables

That is true. The whole thing can be 10m long but as long as the inner vs outer length is correct the cable would work.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 23.04. 2018 10:52
 I guess I did that in a bit of haste; Pics are out of sequence.

 Top (short) and bottom (long) of the three cables are from the same supplier in Sydney, Trojan Classics via ebay, not bad cables except the olive pulled of the top end of the one I use after a short time- easily re-soldered but could have been nasty *eek*....the middle cable is probably locally made from the only British bike shop left in the state as far as I know.

 In my previous post ^^ reply#1;
 Pic 1 is obviously the lever comparison,
 Pic 2 shows the difference in inner cable lengths, with bottom abutments in line, (I think I took a pic of that will edit from the phone)
 Pic 3 just to demonstrate the abutments and top end,
 Pic 4 is the other end from Pic 3 without moving anything, and shows the overall difference in cable lengths.

 
Quote
Won't take five minutes with a nice new and non-greasy inner.
....in theory...! *work*

 
Quote
... The whole thing can be 10m long but......
well yeah, but it might look funny towing a cable drum around looking like a utility maintenance outfit   *smile*


 Edit;pic 5 added- hopefully right one

Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: cyclobutch on 23.04. 2018 16:54
Seems most of the cables I buy these days the inners are longer that I'd like. And that's not just for BSAs. Rather than cut into the cable with the likely compromise my bad workmanship will surely introduce, I tend to make up a spacer for the outer to wet things back about right. You either need a small lathe or a pal with one.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Sluggo on 23.04. 2018 18:30
Many people mix and match different brakes, both for custom and practical reasons so its a topical discussion.
The conical (Sometimes called Comical) brake is by far, the most misunderstood drum brake in Brit-iron IMHO.
Most I have looked at are not properly adjusted (With resulting poor performance) and often on inspection the actual contact patch of the brake pad material is the size of a US Dime 10 cent piece.  When arc'ed in properly and full contact is made with both pads its a remarkably efficient brake design.
Same with getting the cable at the dual levers set right, and the little springy piece in between. I have struggled with this myself.

But overall,, I enjoyed the pictures of the  cables posted and had a HAH!  *bash* moment there.  Thankfully I rarely deal with the public these days as a shop, But I used to often launch into a long rant about fitting cables.  I often tried to avoid jobs of merely fitting cables to peoples bikes unless part of a bigger job and instead educate owners and just sell them the cables.  Most people balked at high labor charges for fitting a cable or worse, a pair of throttle cables on a twin carb.  "Fettling' them properly is a time consuming endeavor to do correctly.   Other than that, All i have to offer is "I feel your pain" & the brake cables with the brake switch for Conical brakes are absurdly expensive for what it is.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 23.04. 2018 22:31
 
Quote
......, I enjoyed the pictures of the  cables posted and had a HAH!  *bash* moment there. ........and the little springy piece in between. I have struggled with this myself......the brake cables with the brake switch for Conical brakes are absurdly expensive for what it is.

  I'm curious to know why the HAH!  *bash* moment ? By the 'little springy thing', do you mean the long coil spring? why was that an issue ?

 If I recall the cables weren't too bad priced, may AU$ 30 something-have the receipts somewhere ; all three I have came with brake light switch (that itself can be a bit dodgy)

 **edit; there are extended arms available, that supposedly increase the mechanical advantage at the expense of hand lever travel, but longer arms for your pocket are needed... $$  I decided I don't need 'em anyway *smile*
 
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Sluggo on 23.04. 2018 23:46
The HAH! Moment  *bash* is because I often sound like a broken record lecturing people on cables and the differences, especially throttle cables.  It can be a time consuming task to set them up so they work well and often the inner cable & outer housing present challenges.

Most people want a fit & forget cable replacement experience and mods, alterations and add ons are not a popular topic,  In addition, I have ordered and stocked premium cables and the difference is night and day in quality, yet if you have a teflon lined cable with optimum dia and quality ends -OR- you offer up a $3.50 EMGO repop most people opt for the cheapo cable every time and THEN complain about the whole affair.

As to the springy thing,,,, Yes,, there is a long coil spring and the 2 levers work based on the inner and outer cable and then the spring so both levers actuate as a true TLS brake but it takes a bit of fiddling to get it working correct and many I have seen do not, not because it wont work, but because of many people either fail to understand how it works or too inept to make it work.

On the conical break as well there is adjusters accessed from the backside via small portholes and covered with a rubber cap, adjusting these is critical as well. 

I wouldnt bother with the extended arms, popular topic when the conical is discussed but dont work out well in practice.  If you are interested though, explore a repositioned fulcrum point on the hand levers, Not sure on the brake side but certain clutch levers for these same models (BSA-Norton-Triumph) have this point in a different spot and are a coveted item by those in the know.  Might be able to replicate this with other levers as well if you are not a rivet counter.

But properly set up WITH a good friction material its an incredibly effective front brake.  I have a couple sets of these hubs I machined big cooling holes in and using them for cafe racer projects as they look similar to Manx brakes.  There is a fellow in the Phillipines (Aussie?? known as MadAss) who makes a nice rear hub finned replica flange and you can get bacon slicers as well from many vendors.

I know a local guy, Panhead Mike, who is a Engineer in his day job who spent a lot of time researching friction materials and carbon fibre formulations and creates some amazing brakes using this material.  Several of our local friction supply shops (Brakes & Clutch) wont reline the shoes for you as motorcycles are scary. (Liability-Lawyers-tort claims)  But you can buy the materials yourself and reline either epoxy or rivets.  PH-Mike uses both.  But you can damn near do a stoppy on his knucklehead and they did a Indian Scout as well and Radar said you can smoke-skid the front and rear brakes on the Indian and in 50 years of ownership its NEVER done that before.  Prior to PH-Mikes improvements any stop needed advance planning.

Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Joolstacho on 24.04. 2018 00:35
Is it possible that the inline brake switch has not been accounted for? The original cable had a brake switch as part of the cable outer, which obviously affects the length. Maybe someone has made up the cable in error, not compensating for the switch length.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 24.04. 2018 04:19

 **I've been troubleshooting my Macbook as a 'guest Admin' so all setting are dysfunctional- can't 'copy & paste' and other stuff  as normal.. *rant*..for a day or so...**

  Jools- no switch *may* be the case for JWO (for the moment 'JAWOL' *smile*), or others...but mine is fine so no probs....inner
could possibly be shorter@ 8"  *dunno2*

  Sluggo, I can't disagree, and have much addressed your points that are relative to me (Longer arms/'click-cam' adjusters/fulcrum length but gone the other way to no disadvantage,not intentional- just the way it worked out) , still occasionally ponder the actual functionality of the interim spring...but this is JAWOL's story for now... *dunno2*.

 
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Joolstacho on 24.04. 2018 04:54
BTW I just happen to have one of these wheel/brake/cable complete that I'll be putting up for sale soon.
Not organised it yet but just thought I'd mention it seeing as this 'comical' subject came up.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Sluggo on 24.04. 2018 05:35
BTW I just happen to have one of these wheel/brake/cable complete that I'll be putting up for sale soon.
Not organised it yet but just thought I'd mention it seeing as this 'comical' subject came up.

Assuming you are still discussing front ones, one minor tech note worth mentioning, There was at least 2 variations on the front conical hubs.  It has to do with the bearing retainer-nut and how the front axle fits in there.  Not a big deal if your wheel is complete with all the parts but if trying to assemble one from bits, its a critical detail.  I could probably post a pix of the difference if anyone needs an example, Not sure if the parts books show this or not But I know a number of people who have run into this and were unaware of the difference.
Also, They DID make a mini version of these same conical style brakes and I cant say definitively what all they came on, as BSA often did parts bin engineering or filled shortages with whatever was on the shelf, But I have a very low mileage and original BSA B50 here that was sold as a morphodite Triumph.  These 500 thumper BSA/Triumphs were truly strange beasts with odd parts fitted including these same brakes and cables but different than the 650 Twins.

It was purchased by a friend who worked in South America in the 60s and 70s, and being largely off the grid was not aware of BSAs demise in 73.  He came back to the US and wanted a nice plodder BSA 500 twin for use on his infrequent visits to the US.  He was very upset no more 500 BSA twins and devastated BSA was kaput.  In a sympathy purchase he bought this 500 thumper and I have the original receipt, Manual and Helmet the dealership forced him to buy at the same time.  (Helmet law had also passed in Lee's absence). 
Tank said Triumph and a weird 1>2 exhaust and lacking lighting, The dealership fitted a crappy Bates accy headlight and tail light.   Lee tried commutting with it on the interstate and hated it.  He rode it from Portland to Seattle and back and been parked ever since.

(Sorry to go off on a tangent like that, but its relatively related)
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 24.04. 2018 09:38

 Sorry Jools- I have two to keep me going, the perfectly round S/H one that was on the R-Flush when it posed as a wheelchock for the concrete truck, and the (slightly out-of-shape) NOS one that is now in service.......

 Sluggo- I had the notion that the smaller six or seven inch versions were fitted to Scrambler versions- maybe just singles, but dunno for sure  *dunno*
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Servodyne on 26.04. 2018 09:08
I have rebuilt my front hub, new shoes etc. I have fitted the wheel. I connected up the correct BSA NOS brake cable with the correct adjuster on the Lucas levers. The cable is on full adjustment to take up the slack ? I appreciate there are adjusters on these two leading shoes types, but will they take up the cable slack in the cable. Seems like the cable is about 1" too long. Thank you.

The two micro adjusters inside the hub are designed to move the levers to their optimum position, ie 90 deg to the pull of the cable. Back off the handlebar adjuster totally or even disconnect the cable at that end, adjust each micro adjuster in the hub. Screw it in until it becomes solid then back it off one click. When you have done this on both adjusters the levers will be as near as dam it 90 deg when pulled up solid. Reconnect the cable at the handlebar and adjust as normal. If the cable is still too long there's something wrong with the cable.
These are cracking brakes when properly set up. I use Ferodo AM14 linings as per original and it's as good as any twin leader out there and better than most.
Hope this helps.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: A10 JWO on 26.04. 2018 15:40
I like that last answer, thank you.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Rex on 26.04. 2018 16:33
[These are cracking brakes when properly set up. I use Ferodo AM14 linings as per original and it's as good as any twin leader out there and better than most.

Yep, they are good brakes.....just a shame they look so crappy compared with the earlier FW TLS brake with it's sexy little chrome air intake.. ;)
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 28.04. 2018 10:24
 
Quote
I appreciate there are adjusters on these two leading shoes types, but will they take up the cable slack in the cable. Seems like the cable is about 1" too long. Thank you.

 I re-read this,and seems I overlooked the actual question due to assuming you had already adjusted as per normal, erroneous on my part...then concentrated on the diversional 'cable too long'...
I sussed mine out, and with the adjusters backed right off to 'zero' (12&14 clicks respectively), and the top adjuster wound right out, the shoes are only just about to contact (~30mm travel at bottom levers).
   I re-adjusted the clickers back to start point, (much the same as Servo's suggestion), and comes up to 4 full-turns of the hand-lever adjuster....
  So in a nutshell, give the adjustment a whirl, and see where it ends up, but would still be handy if you can give info to compare (ie cable overhang ) and let us know how you get on
  I think I got it right this time    (I took photos if you need 'em)
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: A10 JWO on 28.04. 2018 12:17
Hi Dutch, photos would be good. I don't want to remove the wheel again. Thank you.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 29.04. 2018 00:26
 Lucky I have a spare shoe-plate; I've orientated it and the wheel (roughly) as it would be on the bike for access to the bottom left adjuster (both at ends of screwdrivers) behind rubber plug. Top one will (obviously) be @ ~180ยบ from pictured bottom position and just behind the fork legs.

 If you don't know what adjustment you have, wind them both ANTI-clock back to 'zero' and and start again (do it anyway & slowly & count the clicks, when it's back at start you'll feel it turn a bit then resist and spring back )
 Make sure the hand-lever adjuster is backed right off, and start clicking away-do it slowly and count the clicks  *eek* as per Servo's post;
Quote
. Back off the handlebar adjuster totally or even disconnect the cable at that end, adjust each micro adjuster in the hub. Screw it in until it becomes solid then back it off one click. When you have done this on both adjusters the levers will be as near as dam it 90 deg when pulled up solid. Reconnect the cable at the handlebar and adjust as normal. If the cable is still too long there's something wrong with the cable.

 * the only reason for counting the clicks is so you know where you're at (reference/record it)....I also spin the wheel backwards a few times and pull the brake on thinking it *may* help self-centre  *dunno*


  With regard to the previously mentioned 6"conical version; I can't find anything in the spares lists of singles twins or triples (no surprise there)
  There's plenty of mention with a general internet search, so maybe made for Tri****s  *dunno*

Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Servodyne on 29.04. 2018 22:42
Another thing worth noting about the effectiveness of these brakes is that there were two different lengths of lever supplied. The more common length is 1.5", but there was a longer one at 1.875". This gave a 25% increase in leverage for a single lever, but because this design was 'double' acting, this equated to a very useful overall increase of 50%. Both levers can be used with the standard cable which is not always the case when people simply weld extensions to the shorter levers.
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 29.04. 2018 23:57

 yep dem's da ones I mentioned earlier, but for the price  *eek*... I think they have the same Tri***h # with a 'A' after (?) this one has 'L' and cheaper than I recall the ones from MutzNutz (?);

 http://thebonnevilleshop.com/triumph-bsa-conical-hub-extended-front-brake-lever-set-pn-37-3986-37-3987-l/ (http://thebonnevilleshop.com/triumph-bsa-conical-hub-extended-front-brake-lever-set-pn-37-3986-37-3987-l/)
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: Sluggo on 30.04. 2018 00:07
On FeeBay currently is a 1973 BSA/Triumph OIF B50 single (500cc thumper) that is nearly the same as the one I have here in my shop,  Mine is more "Barnfind" and crusty from decades of sitting literally in  PNW-USA barn but IS all original-1 owner and very LOW mileage and happy to post pictures of the cables, routing or brakes
But it has the small diameter Conicals. 

The bike on feebay is in a way interesting, (*Note the goofy exhaust,, what the hell were they thinking??) But I would be hard pressed to leave a bike like this all stock.   The one I have here, I am converting it to a Cafe racer for the son of the original owner, but nothing that cant be restored back original.

Its possible such conical brakes are used on other models, but I am unaware of any....   

I Have a Rickman as well, and its pretty clear the OIF BSA/Triumph forks were copies of the Cerrani, Betors and other similar period designs, and looking at the small conicals they resemble the Rickman brakes as well..

(Not sure who made them, my bike was originally a Rickman Montessa, I wanted to stuff a B50 motor in it, but wont fit, so instead I am stuffing in a 72 Triumph 500 Daytona T100R motor)
As mentioned, if pictures help, I am happy to snap & post mine here....

Link to FeeBay bike......:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-BSA-B50MX/142771238575?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

(*Note this bike has the SAME crappy aftermarket headlight, headlight bracket and tail light assy as we have here on the bike i have in my shop.  Also note the tacked on Smiths gauge.)
Title: Re: A65 Front Conical Hub Brakes ! Not A10.
Post by: duTch on 30.04. 2018 06:22

 Ok that's progress to show that the 6" Conical fronts did exist, but it's not a TLS as I'd had in mind ... *dunno2*