The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: BSA500 on 27.04. 2018 12:25

Title: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 27.04. 2018 12:25
A different take on wet sumping. Just finished a bottom end rebuild and now it will wet sump over night ??. Any suggestions I have over started it up and get a good return. I suspect I might not have done the pump body up tight enough or the ball valve is stuck up. I have owned the A7 for 30 years and it has never done this.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: bsa-bill on 27.04. 2018 12:38
Sorry to suggest the obvious but did you include the gasket ( washer shaped) under the front pump mounting?
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 27.04. 2018 12:49
I am pretty sure I did, but I couldn't swear to it of course. Its no big effort to take the timing cover and check prob that's what I will end up doing  *sad2*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: muskrat on 27.04. 2018 13:07
G'day BSA500.
Did you replace the anti siphon ball and spring? Is it the original design or the A65 modification? Was the oil pump serviced?
Cheers
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: orabanda on 27.04. 2018 13:30
This is a rare occurrence, but it happened to me, so.....
Someone else converted the bottom end of a Super Rocket to needle roller bearing, and assembled the bottom end. That's when I gained the project.

I spared no expense, and ended up with a very nice bike. I also fitted a SRM oil pump.

Unlike my other bikes, this one wet sumped a lot. The reason was obscure, but important.

When the timing side crankshaft pinion was fitted, it wasn't hard up against the shoulder on the crankshaft.Consequently, although the oil pump securing screws were tight, the oil pinion side of the oil pump housing was touching the pinion, and the oil pump wasn't sitting flat against the gasket.

When i removed the timing cover , a small strand of blue swarf in the oil pump chamber gave the game away.

After I made sure there was clearance between the oil pump housing and everything else, barely any wet sumping; a huge improvement!

So, moral of the story is, look for signs of metal - to - metal contact (shavings) around the bevel drive.

Richard
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 27.04. 2018 15:41
This is a rare occurrence, but it happened to me, so.....
Someone else converted the bottom end of a Super Rocket to needle roller bearing, and assembled the bottom end. That's when I gained the project.

I spared no expense, and ended up with a very nice bike. I also fitted a SRM oil pump.

Unlike my other bikes, this one wet sumped a lot. The reason was obscure, but important.

When the timing side crankshaft pinion was fitted, it wasn't hard up against the shoulder on the crankshaft.Consequently, although the oil pump securing screws were tight, the oil pinion side of the oil pump housing was touching the pinion, and the oil pump wasn't sitting flat against the gasket.
Yep I will pulling the timing side off to check

When i removed the timing cover , a small strand of blue swarf in the oil pump chamber gave the game away.

After I made sure there was clearance between the oil pump housing and everything else, barely any wet sumping; a huge improvement!

So, moral of the story is, look for signs of metal - to - metal contact (shavings) around the bevel drive.

Richard
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 27.04. 2018 17:23
Sorry last post rubbish but I shall be removing the timing cover and checking the pump. If I have too can remove the pump and do an external check on the anti siphon valve
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 27.04. 2018 17:48
Ok checked the pump all washers gasket present. I could tighten the pump studs a little so did that cleaned everything and left the sump plate off to see if the engine drops much oil.  If it does pump has to come off andiwill like the anti siphon valve a bit
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: muskrat on 27.04. 2018 20:49
Orabanda's suggestion has a world of merit. That pinion can be very tight on the shaft. I always warm mine (15 minutes in boiling water) and it goes on easy.
I'd certainly be finding the problem before running the motor again. If it's wet sumping that bad there's a chance that it's not pumping to the right places either.
My plunger wet sumps (not as bad as yours) so every time the cover comes off so too does the pump. I then give the anti siphon ball a good squirt of carb clean by pushing the ball off it's seat with the tube attached to the nozzle. It does help for a while.
Did you pull the pump apart as part of the bottom end rebuild? The end plate and extension housing need to be lapped on a piece of glass to remove any scoring. The gears must be put back in exactly the same position (tooth for tooth) or binding may occur.
Cheers
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 27.04. 2018 22:52
Left the pump well alone. Cleaned the timing chest out tighten the pump studs and left over night and see how it goes
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Greybeard on 28.04. 2018 08:41
Left the pump well alone. Cleaned the timing chest out tighten the pump studs and left over night and see how it goes
Please tell me you checked that the little washer/gasket/spacer is under the pump nose stud.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 28.04. 2018 09:17
Yes the washer is in place. I shall check the sump later today fingers crossed
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 28.04. 2018 09:34
 
Quote
Re: Wet sumping
« Reply #6 on: Today at 03:23:23 »

    Quote

Sorry last post rubbish but I shall be removing the timing cover and checking the pump. If I have too can remove the pump and do an external check on the anti siphon valve

 Yeah, you stuck your reply in the middle of the quote; nothing unusual but easy to fix if you go back and click on 'modify'....

 
Quote
Please tell me you checked that the little washer/gasket/spacer is under the pump nose stud.

 Contemporary gaskets have that bit integral with the main gasket, in my mind a much better(and safer) idea, I make my own anyway.


 There's a lot of talk about balls and springs, but unless I missed it- how about the ball valve in the scavenge pipe ?

20seconds after posting; Nah forget that I had a brainfart thinking something else  *bash*

Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 28.04. 2018 10:58
I kept going back to the pick up pipe until I realised its not part of oil feed and to stop obsessing about it. If it has dropped the oil again the only thing I can do without splitting the cases is remove the pump and poke the ball valve. Problem is I would have to drain the oil tank etc. I was nearly ready to go back on the road to.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 28.04. 2018 11:19

 
Quote
.....Problem is I would have to drain the oil tank etc......

 Not so hard by the sounds of it- just drop the sump plate with a pan under and go to the pub  *smile*  *bash*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 28.04. 2018 14:08
The scavenge pipe can only drop the volume of the pipe into the sump unless the oil level is about the hole in the standpipe.

The usual culprit is a heavy had seating the ball into the cases distorting the seat.
The solution is as Musky does a ball braised onto the end of a rod and some very careful linishing with Brasso followed by some very thorough cleaning.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: muskrat on 28.04. 2018 14:53
Wrong way round Trevor. I'm the heavy fisted one who taps the ball against the seat, RichardL is the lapper.
What happens is the oil seeps through the oil pump gears or gap from rubbing the end plate/extension housing. It then comes against the anti siphon ball. If it doesn't seat the oil oozes into the cases via the main bush.
Cheers
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: A10 JWO on 28.04. 2018 15:55
Sorry to jump in here, did wet sumping ever stop on the later models up until the demise of BSA. I had a 1971 Commando for a few years, never had this problem regardless of how long it was laid up in the garage. If I did it must have been minimal. ? Thanks.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: groily on 28.04. 2018 16:41
Maybe the Commandos had bigger better balls or something, but my Notrun Atlas and 650 Dommie engines wet-sump summat awful, with known-good guts. For better or worse they've got taps with mag cut outs. Same as my AMC twins, which are notoriously evil on this. Uprated and modded pumps can help at a price, but not guaranteed in my experience with the AMCs . Maybe the Norvil etc replacement pumps do a better job for Notruns like SRM ones are said to do for us here.   

My A, though, hasn't misbehaved at all since replacing the ball and spring. Before, it was very unpredictable.
When bikes were daily transport they didn't have a chance to embarrass themselves, though, so we never really knew I don't think! Whether, for example, later A50s and A65s were better or worse, I don't know, because the ones I knew back in the day were all daily riders. I very rarely see the unit twins hereabouts. Folk prefer the pre-units (there be loads of 'em), or maybe the unit ones just weren't imported here in any numbers.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 28.04. 2018 16:49
Well tiigthing the pump studs seems to have done the trick about 50 mls after 24 hours.😁
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: muskrat on 28.04. 2018 20:49
That's good news BSA500.
All the little tips and tricks are worth remembering, and hopefully anyone having the same problem can work their way through them.
At least our bikes have a sump plate that can be removed to drain the sump. HD's don't and quite often make a hell of a mess pumping it out the breather. One on my bench at the moment. *rant*
Cheers
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 29.04. 2018 08:16
Wrong way round Trevor. I'm the heavy fisted one who taps the ball against the seat, RichardL is the lapper.
What happens is the oil seeps through the oil pump gears or gap from rubbing the end plate/extension housing. It then comes against the anti siphon ball. If it doesn't seat the oil oozes into the cases via the main bush.
Cheers

Appologies to Richard & Musky.
I am down with a heavy cold courtsey of too much red too late in the morning at the ABR and the head is a bit woosey.
But at least it shows that I do take in others better ideas that are profferred here.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 29.04. 2018 08:18
Sorry to jump in here, did wet sumping ever stop on the later models up until the demise of BSA. I had a 1971 Commando for a few years, never had this problem regardless of how long it was laid up in the garage. If I did it must have been minimal. ? Thanks.
Commandos & Triumphs had piston pumps and wet sumping is as previously mentioned a problem with riders who do not use bikes with gear pumps enough.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: bsa-bill on 29.04. 2018 11:58
Quote
wet sumping is as previously mentioned a problem with riders who do not use bikes with gear pumps enough

Exactly
BSA produced bikes intended for regular use, had they foseen that half a century on people like us would cherish, polish and occasionally ride them now and then they would probably have addressed the problem.

This son of the soil rode his bike several times a week in the sixties, only once did it wet sump, that being after a solid month harvesting 12 - 18 hours a day, no riding , no beer not much sleep either
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 29.04. 2018 13:30

 
Quote
.... no riding , no beer....
   = no life... $$$/££££...   *eek*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: bsa-bill on 29.04. 2018 17:13
Quote
  no riding , no beer...  = no life... $$$/££££..

True but lots a cash to spend on riding and beer later (we country lads were not awash with the moola, hence the wellies and seaboot socks instead of flying boots)
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 29.04. 2018 20:21
At least it didn't involve another strip down. I think I might have cried  *sad2*. Thanks for all the advice lots of info for all  *smile*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: morris on 29.04. 2018 21:16
BSA produced bikes intended for regular use, had they foseen that half a century on people like us would cherish, polish and occasionally ride them now and then they would probably have addressed the problem.

I think they'd mainly be rolling on the floor laughing...  *smile*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: trevinoz on 29.04. 2018 22:33
Commandos & Triumphs had piston pumps and wet sumping is as previously mentioned a problem with riders who do not use bikes with gear pumps enough.

Triumph & Ariel for sure but Norton & Matchless/AJS had gear pumps with the same problem.
Late Commandos had a check valve but still had a gear pump.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 01.05. 2018 09:48
Commandos & Triumphs had piston pumps and wet sumping is as previously mentioned a problem with riders who do not use bikes with gear pumps enough.

Triumph & Ariel for sure but Norton & Matchless/AJS had gear pumps with the same problem.
Late Commandos had a check valve but still had a gear pump.

Looks like I will go back and stand in the naughty corner with the dunces had on yet again.
Thanks for correcting the error.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: cyclobutch on 02.05. 2018 08:32
Sorry to jump in here, did wet sumping ever stop on the later models up until the demise of BSA. I had a 1971 Commando for a few years, never had this problem regardless of how long it was laid up in the garage. If I did it must have been minimal. ? Thanks.

No clue how it works on the inside but my Sporty never wet sumps a drop, even over a 6 month or more layup.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 21.05. 2018 18:49
Well all goodwiththe oil filter etc. Pity it sounds like the crank is trying exit through the drive side. I have in and out play in the drive side crank. No shimsinthe bottom. What to stop me going for zero play or maybe 1/2 thou. Every time I go to around 3 thou the gap opens up??????
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: muskrat on 21.05. 2018 21:07
G'day BSA500.
Back to square one. Is the wet sumping fixed or at least slowed?
How much endfloat did you have when the bottom end was done up after rebuild? How much now? Is the cush nut done up to 65ft/lb (f'ing tight)
3thou" is acceptable but if you started with 1/2thou and now you have 3 either your maths needs work or the bearing wasn't all the way home when you took the measurement for shimming. Was the t/s bush replaced? It may not have been all the way home either.
But we're getting off the original topic now.
Cheers
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 21.05. 2018 22:16
Agree off the original topic I shall repost.  But to answer a few questions.  Yes wet sumping fixed. Cush drive  nut 65ftlb Last took the engine down for bugger small end but didn't recheck the float. Bugger
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: muskrat on 30.05. 2018 09:04
G'day all.
My 51 A7 has been a bad wet sumper for a while now. I never measured it but I'd guesstamate 1Lt a week  *eek*.
So a few days ago I set about to try and slow it down. First I removed the pump and faced the end plate and extension housing to remove the marks made by the gears to reduce side clearance. I then poked the thin tube attached to a can of carb clean into the crank feed hole (top right) and pushed the ball back. Gave it a good blast moving the ball back and forth. Then wacked it all back together.
Started her up, checked for oil return and rode around the block a few times to get her hot. Dropped the sump plug and let her drain for a few hours. I then put a measuring cup under her and came back 2 days later.
 *woo* 100ml so now will take 20 days to sump a Lt.
All a bit academic as she's in bad need of a rebuild (timing side bush knackered) and not being ridden much.
Cheers
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 31.05. 2018 20:50
Found the reason for the wet sumping. Somebody had left out the plug spring and ball.  *eek*2. Yep me and I have lost them. Where can I buy all the bits I need esp the plug
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Greybeard on 31.05. 2018 21:13
Found the reason for the wet sumping. Somebody had left out the plug spring and ball.  *eek*2. Yep me and I have lost them. Where can I buy all the bits I need esp the plug
I found the spring at SRM. I found the ball at Hawkshaw. I guess a plug could be made from a Whitworth bolt or stud.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: muskrat on 31.05. 2018 21:49
 *roll* *problem* *pull hair out* *bash* ::hh::
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 31.05. 2018 22:26
Yeah yeah I cocked up. Shoot me please
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: berger on 31.05. 2018 22:54
how many miles have you done without any oil pressure I did quite a few when I cocked up with the oil lines
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 31.05. 2018 22:59
It was the anti sumping ball and spring not the prv so there was pressure  just a lot of wet sumping. Although the arm oil pump held quite a lot of oil back
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: berger on 01.06. 2018 00:17
mmmmmm I would of thought without the plug in the pump would just fire the oil into the cases , as in the easy route instead of it going to big ends and camshaft- rockers 
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: kiwipom on 01.06. 2018 01:28
mmmmmm I would of thought without the plug in the pump would just fire the oil into the cases , as in the easy route instead of it going to big ends and camshaft- rockers
hi guys, true.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: muskrat on 01.06. 2018 02:19
The splash would have saved the cam & followers. Bush and bigends may need good inspection.
Points for admitting it.
Cheers
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: kiwipom on 01.06. 2018 04:42
Musky, how many planets have you been too? Ha ha
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 01.06. 2018 07:58
I actually have the engine in pieces and everything is fine. It's in pieces for a floppy big end but it had play when I built it. The was plenty of oil in the crank and no signs of picking up or damage. Just call me jammy *eek* *eek* *eek*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 01.06. 2018 08:24

 (You are) 'jammy *eek* *eek* *eek*'

  *edited*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 01.06. 2018 08:38
Thanks it could have been a horrible mess
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: berger on 01.06. 2018 11:45
nicely bsa 500 you are as jammy as me when idiot me put oil pipes on wrong way but filled tank above return hole, me and bike could have been deaded at 80mph on busy duel carriageway *bash*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: BSA500 on 01.06. 2018 12:22
Yep you win a jammy award as well
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Colsbeeza on 28.06. 2019 12:48
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I'd like some opinions.
I have not had a wet sumping issue, but since I have the crankcase apart I thought it silly not to check the ball & seat. I have a new ball and seat, so may as well replace them if needed.
So I removed the Ball & Seat this week, and attach a photo of the seat. AFAIK it has never been apart since new.
The ball and spring look good, but the seat doesn't. It is quite pitted, or corroded unevenly.
I want to grind it in by Greybeard's method ie. epoxy a ball onto a tube and grind it in, but it looks a bit too rough. I think I need to cut a new seat first, and ask for suggestions. It could be so easy to stuff it up.
A further complication is that the seat hole does not seem to be concentric with the oil passage, so I cannot use the oil passage as a drill guide. My thinking is that the best seat angle is about 45 Deg. So I think I should select the right drill size - about 6mm seems right, then fit a collar to the drill to prevent the drill from descending more than 10-15 thou. I don't think that the drill needs to be absolutely vertical, so by eye should be adequate.
Any comments welcome.
Col
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: chaterlea25 on 28.06. 2019 13:14
Hi Col,
I would take the opportunity to modify the setup to the way A65's are done so the balk sits against the rear face of the pump
I posted the details and measurements a few months ago
John
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 28.06. 2019 13:44

 Col- what's the g-o with the bush? There's no thrust face.... *conf2*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: berger on 28.06. 2019 13:51
hello dutch I am going to the pub *beer* it looks like a steel backed bush jobby maybe sort of
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 28.06. 2019 14:02

 
Quote
ello dutch I am going to the pub *beer* it looks like a steel backed bush jobby maybe sort of

 Maybe my eyes, but looks brass to me, but may be the light- wouldn't a pegged steel back stay as part the brass bush?....maybe I need Pub too *beer*      *conf2*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: berger on 28.06. 2019 14:06
I will get to the pub, dutch yes pegged bronze bush in steel back with scoreing marks me thinks *beer* *fight*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: RDfella on 28.06. 2019 15:23
On the singles, BSA suggest putting a ball bearing in situ and giving it a sharp smack with (an appropriately sized) hammer & drift. Same applies here, though if it's so bad that won't do it, then I'd follow advice from Chaterlea & convert to A65 system. That way, you can easily re-visit the situation. Otherwise, it's a drill re-profiled to 45* as you say, and preferably turned by hand with something suitable to grip it.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: coater87 on 28.06. 2019 18:50
 Nope, not me.

 I am smacking that with the old ball and a punch, than I will lap it in.

 Way to easy to screw this up with a drill motor and eyeball.

 And if your feeling queezy about the smacking, skip that too. You can hand lap the whole thing in perfectly. It will just take a few extra minutes.

 Lee
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Greybeard on 28.06. 2019 19:15
I want to grind it in by Greybeard's method ie. epoxy a ball onto a tube and grind it in
Not guilty. I just gave the ball a light tap.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: chaterlea25 on 28.06. 2019 21:03
Hi All,
I replied earlier using my phone and did not notice the "elephant in the room"  *eek*
the "missing" bush flange  *????*
I wonder is there a ball bearing fitted to the drive side ?? otherwise remedial work is needed  *work*

I did a search and found the post with the dimensions and details of the A65 ball position mod
This has the HUGE advantage of being able to be serviced without an engine strip  *smile*
Its a simple job when the cases are apart

https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=13668.msg111568;topicseen#msg111568

John


Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 28.06. 2019 23:10

 I forgot to add my rubles worth to the ball seat when I saw the missing flange; and Lees suggestion came first to mind to clean it up before doing the ball tap method (I was thinking it's Musko's ?), but Johns' idea is probably best
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Swarfcut on 29.06. 2019 10:08
Just checked on a handy timing side case and my bush is the same as pictured, with the bearing metal not reaching the inner face of the carrier. The steel carrier flange bears directly against the crank web, poor engineering but cost effective for BSA.

 Original white metal in steel carrier bushes were the same, steel to steel crank to bush contact. The reaction of the oil pump drive sleeve and crank pump worm tend to push the crank towards the drive side, so in theory this junction is lightly loaded, in contrast to the A65 design in which  the oil pump reaction draws the crank the other way, towards the bush, hence the use of a thrust washer here to control float on later models, 1966 on.

 Your bush looks OK.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 29.06. 2019 10:23

 
Quote
......Original white metal in steel carrier bushes were the same, steel to steel crank to bush contact. The reaction of the oil pump drive sleeve and crank pump worm tend to push the crank towards the drive side, so in theory this junction is lightly loaded, in contrast to the A65 design in which  the oil pump reaction draws the crank the other way, towards the bush, hence the use of a thrust washer here to control float.

 So Swarfo- are you saying the egg came before the chook?  *conf2*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Swarfcut on 29.06. 2019 10:50
Yes, No, Maybe.... The A65 thrust washer appears a later addition, when the ball race drive side main was changed to the conventional roller type, and side thrust towards the bush was taken by the the washer being loaded against the bush face.
 The shim pack is still necessary at the main bearing crank end on initial set up to give the correct float, and accommodate variations in crank and cases, rather than having varying thickness thrust washers as in usual automotive practice.

 With a single piece bronze bush the conundrum is easily solved, but this would have cost too much for the bean counters, until failure rates and warranty claims made an upgrade to a one piece solid bronze bush essential. So to use this type of solid bush, rather than a composite steel sleeved type as pictured, is a good idea, giving a better chance of preserving the crank face by having a much better bearing surface, and going some way to keeping the initially set endfloat correct over time. A further advantage is that the bush can be line bored to give a running clearance to a crank ground to a dimension which just cleans up the journal, not a set undersize, enabling an otherwise unserviceable crank a new lease of life.

 Swarfy

 Additional. I posted the thrust washer controlled the float, not strictly true in that it simply maintains a running clearance. The shim pack sets the amount of float.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Colsbeeza on 01.07. 2019 12:10
Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I think Swarfy is correct. I purchased the T/S bush about 25 years ago from C & D if memory serves me right.  It is a composite steel backed item. The bronze?? clears the inside surface of the steel carrier by about 1/2 - 1mm, but I haven't measured it.
Also the steel carrier appeared to be scored, but not the case. It has only 80 miles on it sofar, so no real damage I hope. Oil pressure has been 60psi cold and 40psi hot. The carrier surface feels quite smooth. I haven't cleaned it yet, just scraped off the gasket material sofar. However, before dismantling the crankcase, I could not get any end float, so suspect there may have been a bit of pressure between the carrier and crank.
The photo was a bit too close up, so I have attached more distant ones. The scoring doesn't look so much. From 20 feet away, there is none at all. *roll*
I did think that it had a white metal liner, but it appears to be bronze. Failures were I think related to the inadequate pinning of the liner to the carrier.
As mine is well lined up and about 1.5 thou clearance between crank and bush, I will leave well alone and hope it holds.
Now back to the ball and spring, thanks John O'R for bringing that to my attention. I knew about it but hadn't considered it. But now rethinking, I am leaning towards doing what you suggest. John  I do remember somewhere seeing a diagram of someone's modification, which suggested an additional diagonal oilway as there was some concern about the distance the oil had to travel past the ball before entering the bush. BSA - Bills website perhaps?? I will try to find it.
I haven't contacted SRM yet, but presumably they may also supply the extended plug.?? If not your dimensions will help me out.
Tomorrow, I will measure the dimensions of the passage depths and post them. My motor is very original, having been off the road since about 1975, so hopefully no-one has meddled with it.
Cheers
Colin
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Colsbeeza on 01.07. 2019 12:12
Damn lost two of the pictures. Here goes again.
Col
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Swarfcut on 01.07. 2019 13:14
Col.. From experience all those bits look pretty good for a careful rebuild and use as is. 40 PSI Hot would say its a good motor.

  The other alternative to the ball valve problem is to remove it completely, just resealing the plug back into the case. This removes any resistance to oil flow by the ball and spring.

 How you stop wet sumping on standing with the valve removed is with an aftermarket  valve in the feed from the tank. Spring loaded, simple, effective, but a disaster if it fails to open under suction, and generally not in favour.  Alternatively a simple on/off tap, easy, cheap, but not recommended unless  it has a 100% foolproof way to prevent starting when it is turned off. Plenty of threads on this Forum, so all the information and the pros & cons of each, plus A65 type ball valve conversion are well represented.

 BSA Bill's system was a poor man's timing side conversion, but even so very cleverly executed without the costs of other well known modifications.

 At the end of the day when you consider the amount of use the bike will get, just cleaning up the ball seat and  a drain plug  type sump plate  could be by far the most cost effective option. Don't worry about the small offset in the seat, provided the seat is reasonable, the ball will roll under the spring pressure and seal OK.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Colsbeeza on 01.07. 2019 14:01
Thanks Swarfy,
Yes it was on  Beeza Bills website.   https://cybermotorcycle.com/archives/bsa-a10/mybsaa10rollerconversion.htm
I don't intend to go down the risky path of a valve in the feed line. At my age, forgetfulness cannot be too far away.
As it has not been wet sumping, my guess is that my oil pump clearances are pretty good. I had stripped and re-assembled it carefully last year - spent hours on it.! I have been using Penrite 20-60 oil with no friction modifiers, so thin enough to test the leakage.
I have sent an email to SRM to see if Gary can supply a new grub screw, (spring and ball he can). If not I can make one. I am hoping that this stripdown will by my last, so I won't rush into it yet.
I have fitted a sump plate with drain plug, so I can cope with some wet sumping if it develops.
Sitting on the fence is one of my lesser qualities - I prefer to say thorough .*dunno*
And GB - sorry I think it was RichardL who glues a ball on a tube to lap the seat.?
Col
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 01.07. 2019 14:17

 All I can say now is that first photo you posted is very deceptive (or my eyes) *conf2*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: orabanda on 02.07. 2019 00:25
Col,
Whenever I have crankcases apart I fit the A65 spring in place of the anemic (token gesture) original A10 spring. I also make a retaining screw that is longer (an additional two threads engagement in the crankcase), but rebated 0.100"(spot faced using an end mill) so that the spring will sit central on the plug.

There is no obstruction to the oil flow by the ball with the A10 system, but the spring pressure is pathetic (*** weak!).

The extra threads on the longer (3/8"BSW) plug provide peace of mind that delivery oil won't escape (leak) into the crankcase. Use 569 loctite (hydraulic sealant) on the thread when installing.

When installed, pushing on the ball from the oil pump face with a punch will show that the ball seating pressure is much greater (strong).

attached pics compare the A10 spring & retaining plug to the A65 spring, and the longer (spotfaced) plug I make. The A65 spring is the longer one.

Cleaning is easy if required; remove oil pump, depress ball with punch, and lightly blow,

I prefer this to copying  the A65 where the supply oil has to find its way between the ball and the oil gallery.

Richard

Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Colsbeeza on 02.07. 2019 12:47
That looks good Richard.
Can I presume that like John O'R, the main passage is drilled out over its full length to 5/16" (If I understand John correctly), and you then cut a 3/8" W Thread for the plug.?
I had also pondered that the back end of the spring may wander a bit due to the large diameter of the plug, but you have addressed that. I had thought of having a pointed plug to locate the spring, but it would be difficult to locate it properly when pushing in the spring from the oil pump side.
I would imagine that the passage diameter is critical to ensure oil flows around the ball with no flow restriction.
Your last line has confused me - Doesn't the oil still have to find its way between the ball and the oil gallery.? Don't you end up with the same design as the A65?
Dutch, yes I hadn't looked closely at that photo and it surprised me that it looked bad.
Col
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: orabanda on 02.07. 2019 13:09
Hi Col,
My apologies re the plug thread size; not drilled out (increased) - use the standard BSW size. It must be 5/16" (memory failing!).
The difference to the A65 is that once the spring is fully compressed the ball has moved below the hole supplying oil to the crank (in the side of the crankcase).
You can confirm this during trial assembly. Check depth of spring compression using depth gauge / vernier.

The spring resistance (back pressure) is the same as an A65.

Richard
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Swarfcut on 03.07. 2019 09:26
Richard, Are you suggesting keeping the basic layout the same, but just fitting a stronger A65 spring, as your experience proves this will help with no detriment to the oil supply to the bush?
 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: orabanda on 03.07. 2019 11:05
Swarfy,
That's correct; works a treat.
Richard
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: chaterlea25 on 03.07. 2019 13:38
Hi All
Richard,
I have not seen a strong(er) spring for an A65 as in your photo
SRM list the same spring for A10 and A65   *????* *????*

http://www.shop.srmclassicbikes.com/product/oil-pump-spring-a50-a65-a10-anti-drain-valve

Just wondering???
John
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: orabanda on 03.07. 2019 15:31
Hi John,
That's interesting (and confusing).
Every A10 /A7 bottom end I have dismantled (dozens) has used a (very) light spring, and much lighter than the A65 springs I have subsequently purchased.

Maybe SRM decided to supply the heavier spring for the pre-unit engines because the original didn't work well enough?

Richard
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: RDfella on 03.07. 2019 16:07
Indeed they are different:- A65 is .945" long x wire thickness of .018",  the A10 .625" long x .012" wire (according to my notes) making the A65 version quite a bit heavier. SRM supplied me the A10 spring when I asked for A65 so they clearly use the same for both engines.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 03.07. 2019 18:01

 
Quote
......Richard,
I have not seen a strong(er) spring for an A65 as in your photo
SRM list the same spring for A10 and A65   *????* *????*

http://www.shop.srmclassicbikes.com/product/oil-pump-spring-a50-a65-a10-anti-drain-valve.....

 Yes very confusing *conf2*..... I bought one of each spring from SRM about 4 or 5 years ago as per pic (the round thing with the 'ole in it is a magnet just to hold the balls), and thought the light one is for A10/7 - same specs as RD's  *dunno*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Greybeard on 03.07. 2019 22:03
I renewed the spring on my engine recently. I'm sure the one I used was the lighter one.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Colsbeeza on 05.07. 2019 09:49
Thanks Richard,
It is raining again today - I measured up the standard system on my 1960 GF motor, and have attached a sketch. The ball has to lift only about 1mm to expose oil to the bush entry passage. Dimensions are the best I could measure by Vernier, so may not be perfect - a bit difficult getting the jaws where I wanted them into the small passages.
I also had a go at calculating the relative pressures of the ball and spring (for my existing spring - I cannot find my new ball and spring, so have to order another one) opposing the static oil pressure from the oil tank when motor is stopped. My old spring was 17.3 mm long, longer than you blokes have reported, so maybe some PO stretched it.! That could be why I have not experienced wet sumping. I measured the wire thickness at 0.015". Attached is also a graph of the result.
Interesting - The spring pressure on the ball seat will take 2.336 psig, ( I assumed the spring material was Hard Drawn MB ASTM A227 - one of the options) and the oil pressure exerted on the other side of the ball is about 2.322 psig. I used a spring calculator I found on the net.
Anyway, you are right that the spring is p--s weak, and barely adequate to hold back the oil.
No doubt BSA went out of their way to ensure the anti-drain system did not reduce oil pressure to the timing side bush.
So maybe the SRM spring is the way to go. Incidentally, I ordered the springs and balls from SRM before doing the calculation, so I do hope they send me the A65 spring. Gary at SRM said they do not make the longer plug, and that they do not modify the A10 system. Gary's reply two days ago quote "This not a mod that we do to standard engines. So the plug is something we cannot supply, have to be carefull, too long and it will block off the oil feed to the main bush, too short and spring will not be long enough to hold against oil pump body. The standard set up is fine as long as ball has a good seating."
I am still Fence-sitting. :-\
Cheers  Colin
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: RDfella on 05.07. 2019 12:01
Col - nice to see someone who knows how to do a proper drawing. Not sure I understand the graph, though. Maybe the imperial / metric units are confusing me. Hate metric anyway - find it error-prone when measuring. Anyway, my calcolations (.4 psi head etc) are that psi the oill exerts is around .015 psi. Doesn't look right to me, but have checked figures.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Swarfcut on 05.07. 2019 13:19
Well impressed by the detail and care taken to get these figures. The more I think about the design, the more I am inclined to remove the valve and go for the on/off ignition linked oil tap.

 A10 or A65 layout has the oilway obstructed to a varying degree by the ball, and the spring is always subjected to continuing hot and cold cycles, no wonder they are a bit p**s poor after 50 years in the dark!

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Colsbeeza on 05.07. 2019 23:05
Did anyone spot the maths error in the Graph.?
I'll replace the graph here - The pressure exerted by the oil is close to 0.5 psi. Logically, a 1metre head of water exerts 10 KPa, or close to 1.45 psig (g for gauge), so 33 cm of oil is about 1/3 of that or about 0.5 psig. - should have used some logic.!!
RDF - your 0.4 psi is spot on - and the units at the bottom are the spring length, which is about 12mm when installed with the ball against the seat. So 12mm length (as close as I could measure) gives a spring force of 0.088 lbf. The diameter of the ball seat is the same as the oil inlet passage diameter 7/32", so X-sectional area is 0.03767 sqins (roughly  *lol*).
Still very little differential pressure to seal the ball (< 2 psi)- depends entirely on bedding the seat well!
Col
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: duTch on 05.07. 2019 23:38

  *doh*
Quote
Did anyone spot the maths error in the Graph.? ......... 
  How silly of me....  *pull hair out* 


 I assume you've allowed for that scientific word for friction in the hose and and galleries, and restriction of the pump ? 'n stuff...?  *conf2*
Title: Re: Wet sumping
Post by: Colsbeeza on 07.07. 2019 12:18
I can feel my chain getting pulled!