The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: bsarider on 07.07. 2009 13:10

Title: Rear Light Type
Post by: bsarider on 07.07. 2009 13:10: Could anyone tell me what is the correct type of rear light for my 1949 A7 Plunger
It has a later type Triumph/60 rear light. Should it be the MT211 or Lucas 480.
thanks.Bsarider
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: fido on 07.07. 2009 15:47: My parts book does not give pictures of electrical items but the part No. is 052307. As far as I'm aware, this is a small round lamp and is no longer legal in UK as there is no provision for a brake light. I have the later type as used on swinging arm A7s as it is legal but does not look out of place.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: LJ. on 07.07. 2009 18:02: As Fido says... It is the round type and can be still bought. I got mine off good old ebay for Â£12 and converted it to pilot and brake light, easy to do and gives a good light rear end. The biggest worry is some kiddie who tries to lift the bike up with it!

If you still have the original number plate then looking behind the existing lamp you may well see the hole left from the original lamp. Like yours, my bike is also a 1949 plunger A7

(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ljswain.btinternet.co.uk%2Fstar-twin%2Frear-light.jpg&hash=c44a22aad690c88206876c446bf311762926cca0)

Note: Picture is a link to my own website.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: bsarider on 07.07. 2009 19:03: LJ has yours got a part number or model type? Paul Goff has some in stock of the round types at Â£19.odd earth pounds,it maybe that he can fit one of his led stop and tail into one which are really neat and save a bit of power. bsarider
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: bsarider on 07.07. 2009 19:08: http://www.catmando-services.co.uk/index.html . Has anyone had any dealings with
catmando as he seems to have some rear lights converted for Â£17.+ am I allowed to post other web pages on here if not please cancell and smacked wrists. bsarider

Edit: (We have no problem with posting links to other sites, Its good to learn of other places. Of course, the A7 A10 forum is always good to come back to.)
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: Rusty nuts on 07.07. 2009 20:54: I have an MT110 from lightning spares Â£16.95 inc vat +60p for dual filament bulb fitted to my 49 A7 plunger.
Previous owner, 1952 to 2008 thinks it looks right so good enough for me!
Also passed her first MOT since 1970 yesterday with it, so def legal
Tried to post a pic but think as newbie cannot do that yet!

Edit: Rusty, There is a helpful thread explaining how to post pictures here, give it a go as we love pictures!

http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=427.15

No "attach/browse" button for me. Have insert image on top toolbar, (next to insert flash) but will not allow me to paste.
Admin told me I had to post 4 threads or something before am able to post profile pic so assume is same for images
Would be helpful to include in welcome e-mail if that's the case!
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: Rusty nuts on 07.07. 2009 21:05: Should add fitted to original number plate as post above, same lens, slightly shorter than LJ's pic, black & fits original mounting holes comes wired with bullet connectors.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: LJ. on 07.07. 2009 23:06: Alan... What ever you do dont fit one of those LED lights they are, in my experience, Rubbish! Somehow you just can't beat the good old fashioned light bulb. Indeed the LED do use very little power but with a good dynamo and regulator, 5 watts pilot rear and 21 watts brake light is more than satisfactory.

I've looked and cannot find any makers name on the lamp, the lamp itself came from a guy selling New old stock and is in Bebbington Liverpool if that is any help. I dont know if he has any more but was selling them almost weekly a while ago.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: Richard on 07.07. 2009 23:12: LJ
I am sorry but I must disagree with you *fight* the LED rear lamps are not rubbish at all and by using one you can afford to up the headlight wattage so there fore not overworking the dynamo and having a brighter front light and also a brighter rear lamp. I have an LED rear lamp and I have been told that it is a very bright light better than the standard lamp.
Admit it you live in a time warp and just don,t want to be modern!!! *smile*
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: Brian on 08.07. 2009 07:01: Bsarider, the correct lamp is the MT211. The Lucas catalogue describes this as "Tail and number plate lamp, red diakon cover, three screw fixing, six watt bulb"

I've included a scan of the cover from the Lucas catalogue so you can see how it attaches to the base.

I have always removed the bulb holder and put a twin element type in to run a stop light. The only catch is with these small ones you need a globe with the small bulb on it which can be a bit hard to find in a six volt these days. I havent had any experience with LED stuff but they may well be a viable alternative.

Of course all this only applies if you want to be totally original.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: LJ. on 08.07. 2009 09:59: I can explain Richard! really I can... :P

I'll fully agree with you on their brightness if you were to be directly behind the lamp even at some distance from it, but for the best result you need to be facing the LEDs. Move to the side and the LEDs seem to be somewhat dimmed whereas the conventional bulbs are still bright from which ever angle you view them. I think I'd rather sacrifice some watts for brighter light at my rear end than brighter lights in front, if I cant see where I'm going i'll most likely slow down but if someone behind you does not see your lights then they'll carry on into you, perhaps not the driver directly behind but maybe a driver turning into the road your already on. (Imagine the scenario)

Not only this, I find the LEDs are too 'instantly on' and 'instantly off' whereas the old bulbs seem to 'glow on' and 'glow off' enabling your reaction time to see them clearer. This may just be me and others may find the LEDs very good like yourself. I personally think the LEDs have a little way to go yet before they are as good as bulbs.

*I still have my old LED board if any reasonable offers are forth comming! (Working, and in very good condition)

Edit: Looking back at my picture of the round lamp, this post looks like a bit of contradiction as even bulbs wont really be seen from the sides. My experience with LEDs was with the later Lucas lamps as fitted to my 1960 A10s. *red*
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 08.07. 2009 11:02: The standard LED replacement globe is a disaster made even worse if it has red led's in it.
All of the circuit board type LED replacements use white LEDs or a combination of white & blue and are well worth the money and effort to fit.
The facetted lens diffracts the light quite well to the sides, much better than a standard globe.

As for generation capacity I seriously doubt that any of our dynamos are putting out full power and those that do could not sustain it for any great length of time.
I for one notice that on long night rides the battery runs down and towards the end the the duty cycle of the generator gets shorter and shorter ( globes dim slightly when genny is having a rest)
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: fido on 08.07. 2009 14:06: Yes, you won't get much side illumination from the old round type lamp so that is a factor to bear in mind, especially if you ride at night. Probably best to wear something reflective if riding at night anyway, especially if you ride a black bike with black bike clothing.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: Dynamo Regulators Mike on 09.07. 2009 13:36: As is unfortunately so often the case we classic riders are limited by shoddy products on the market. There is quite clearly nothing inherently ?wrong? with LED?s as light sources. Crikey, there are plenty of incandescent LED replacements out there, and it is a rapidly growing (even this year) market sector. I too have tried a couple of LED tail / stop bulb replacements from the usual sources and these were rubbish. But my rear light solution uses LEDs successfully. It is custom made though and not intended to put it on the market alongside the regulators, before anyone asks.

My rear light uses just two wide angle red LED?s. White LED?s have much lower efficiency due to the ?phosphors? needed to convert some of the blue light to other colours. They are Luxeon Lumiled LXHL-PD01. Running at just 0.1 Amp, in stop mode, brightness is good and side beam spread is very acceptable. They cost under Â£2 each, rated 1 Watt and can be driven much harder. Then for detail I added 3 small white LED?s pointing down for number plate illumination. Whole thing is mounted on a small aluminium plate wired into a standard bulb (or lamp as old Mr Morley would insist, bulbs go in the ground to flower in the spring, globes are another thing again).

Point is to save a few Watts, especially the stop light, and to see how easily good performance can be achieved. Shouldn't be any need to spend Â£20 odd. With my 60W halogen light and Boyer ignition I though it worth saving the other 2 Amps. Limiting dynamo output to about 6 Amps, 85 W, this is still one machine that works for its living. No sign of flagging on longer night runs, but then Lucas rate the E3L armature & brushes at 8.5 amps at modest speed anyway. Prince of Darkness be gone.

I would like to measure relative light outputs between sources and at different angles to eliminate the subjectivity, got some photodiodes somewhere.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: mrshells on 09.07. 2009 17:31: LJ
can you recall who you bought the tail light from ?
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: LJ. on 09.07. 2009 18:01: Quote
can you recall who you bought the tail light from ?

No not at all, I never left feedback and neither did he so I cant look back for clues. I do recall he has a shop in Bebbington Liverpool and was selling new old stock on ebay, but thats all I can remember.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: A10Boy on 11.07. 2009 23:27: The dude from Bebbington goes under the ebay name of Smokin5800. [not me].

Hes got stuff on ebay now.

BTW I was in C&D autos today, they got exactly the same light in their shop, and a similar smaller one.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: fido on 12.07. 2009 10:12: I see someone on Ebay is selling a genuine NOS light for the later models, item 120446258310. These are much better quality than the reproduction ones.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: a10 gf on 12.07. 2009 10:49: Agree with Fido, have had a few repro ones, low quality brittle plastic.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: bsarider on 12.07. 2009 19:15: I have just contacted Smokin5800 so i will post some information when he gets back to me.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 13.07. 2009 09:54: www.bulbsthatlast4ever.com/led.html (http://www.bulbsthatlast4ever.com/led.html)

I have found that their unit is as close to perfect as any sane rider could want.

Down side is that they stopped doing the 6 V version which is where they are most advantage
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: Dynamo Regulators Mike on 13.07. 2009 10:23: Yes, this looks really nicely engineered. Like the way a small rectifier bridge is used so same unit works for both polarities. Could have gone further and made one unit for 6 or 12 V, but that would probably take price to over $100. :o
Funny how the testimonial comments range from nearly as bright as the old one to brighter than a thousand suns or thereabouts. ;)
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: mrshells on 14.07. 2009 21:48: Quote from: A10Boy on 11.07. 2009 23:27
The dude from Bebbington goes under the ebay name of Smokin5800. [not me].

Hes got stuff on ebay now.

BTW I was in C&D autos today, they got exactly the same light in their shop, and a similar smaller one.
where is c&d and do you have a part number by anychance please ? *smile*
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 15.07. 2009 11:33: Quote
Yes, this looks really nicely engineered. Like the way a small rectifier bridge is used so same unit works for both polarities. Could have gone further and made one unit for 6 or 12 V, but that would probably take price to over $100.
Funny how the testimonial comments range from nearly as bright as the old one to brighter than a thousand suns or thereabouts.
Not really .
If the electrics were properly maintained then the Led replacement is better than the tungsten globe but not as bright as the halogen globe even when the latter is running at 8 V because of the disgusting state of the wiring.

I get a lot of favourable comments about "how bright" the lights on the M20 are considering that it is 6 V and the answer is always the same.
They look good because they get the full 6 V that they were designed to get not 2.5 that most do due to lack of maintenance.
It seems that every one wants the "mystical miracle magic invention" to fix their lights wen all they need is a little time and some steel wool.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: Dynamo Regulators Mike on 15.07. 2009 18:08: Quote from: BSA_54A10 on 15.07. 2009 11:33
It seems that every one wants the "mystical miracle magic invention" to fix their lights wen all they need is a little time and some steel wool.

Just as well magnetos fitted on those machines with such poorly maintained electrics or the chances of going anywhere are pretty low.

I remember burning steel wool in oxygen in a chemistry lesson; shines really bright. But doesn't last long. Can't imagine that demonstration in schools today. Not as good as magnesium though, but a different sort of burn up.

More Ashes tomorrow
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: A10Boy on 15.07. 2009 19:30: C+D Details

C & D Autos (BSA Spares)
Tel: 01564 795000
Tracy Farm, Redditch Rd, Ullenhall, Henley-In-Arden, West Midlands B95 5NY

Mike, I think the steel wool was to clean up the connectors etc ! *smile*
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: LJ. on 15.07. 2009 21:55: Quote
More Ashes tomorrow

Dont mention the 'Ashes' too many Australians here! ;) *smile*
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 16.07. 2009 10:21: If you make the trip for the BSA International then pop over and have a look, it is the closest a Pom will get to them for a very long time ;-)

Yes the steel wool is for cleaning.
Battery posts and terminals in particular.
Followed by some thing to keep the oxygen at bay.
Used to use lalonlin grease ( well, I am an Aussie) but now have gone over to "Liquid Electrical Tape".
Dose the same job but dose not smell like lamb chops when the battery gets hot.
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: mrshells on 02.08. 2009 08:33: Quote from: A10Boy on 11.07. 2009 23:27
The dude from Bebbington goes under the ebay name of Smokin5800. [not me].

Hes got stuff on ebay now.

BTW I was in C&D autos today, they got exactly the same light in their shop, and a similar smaller one.

Are you sure it was C&d as i phoned them and posted them a print of the picture the only thing they remember having are thost SHI**Y repro thing from WASSEL
Title: Re: Rear Light Type
Post by: LJ. on 02.08. 2009 10:48: The guy who I got mine from appears to be still selling them... I just looked at his completed items and only a day or two ago he sold another one.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LUCAS-TYPE-1930s-STYLE-RAYDOT-BLACK-TAIL-LAMP-N-O-S_W0QQitemZ200367346121QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2ea6d311c9&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LUCAS-TYPE-1930s-STYLE-RAYDOT-BLACK-TAIL-LAMP-N-O-S_W0QQitemZ200367346121QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2ea6d311c9&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14)

Might be an idea to keep an eye on his sales incase he still has more...