The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: BSA500 on 16.05. 2018 10:57

Title: Spark plugs
Post by: BSA500 on 16.05. 2018 10:57
Recommend me some sparks plugs please
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: BSA500 on 16.05. 2018 16:42
Sorry forgot the most important points. A7 with alloy head manu 1957 8:1 pistons. Mine eats the cheap NGKs from ebay surprise  :!
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: berger on 16.05. 2018 18:39
i have not been to the pub, ive been using NGK B7ES and B8ES for ages with high comp pistons and skimmed head no problems....BUT not from FLEABAY , mines alloy head A7 also
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: BSA500 on 16.05. 2018 19:59
I have been using b6es but from ebay *sad2*
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: Seabee on 16.05. 2018 20:36
Mine foul NGk's too. Champions seem to last forever?!
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: berger on 16.05. 2018 21:17
what do you mean by eats them, that is the question burnt out/ fouling etc.  and I would think a B6ES is a bit hot and I know nothing about fish, but I am going to the pub friday
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: muskrat on 16.05. 2018 21:25
I use nothing but NGK even when racing. B7 or 8ES in the Cafe and B7ES in the Plunger (alloy head). If you only ride down to the shop & back run a hotter plug than you would if burning up the highway.
Cheers
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: BSA500 on 16.05. 2018 21:29
I think its a question of where to buy quality plugs from. Some sort of guarantee that they are well made to the correct standard. Maybe the green spark plug company???
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: Flashgreubon on 16.05. 2018 21:36
Hi there,
 I threw away two boxes of  10 new NGK's : faulty out of the box, breaking down when hot or stopping altogether after one or two  days.
 Missed a sale because of them, guys came for test ride, bike fully serviced, went home and could not start it : you guessed : another f...ckd up NGK.
 Trying to start my model H last week, lovely spark,myself puffed up and still no start. Had an old 1920's 18mm plug lying around : started 1st kick.
 Champions for me anyday
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: worntorn on 16.05. 2018 22:45
I bought some EBay NGKs in 2 boxes of ten, separate purchases, different vendors.
Used them for a few years with ok results then read about fake NGKs
Went to the NGK website and got the critical facts.
My eBay plugs are all fakes.
For fun, I checked for any resistance between terminal and tip. There shouldn't be any.
Their resistance values were all over the map.
Quite a number were open circuit.
I threw all of the eBay plugs out and ordered some Champions.
I'm also using some NGKs from Napa auto. They are authentic. And zero resistance

Glen
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: duTch on 16.05. 2018 22:51

 I tried B8ES, B7ES, BP6 7 & 8ES, and I think some Champions and Bosch, but seems to like B6ES best so save the long nose ones for the GuTzzi
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: morris on 17.05. 2018 09:44
NGK B6HS from a reputable dealer for me. Absolutely zero issues on the magneto equipped  plunger or electronic ignition swing arm. I just change them as a matter of precaution every 2 years or so.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 17.05. 2018 10:40
I use BP's in everything as they tend to stay cleaner for longer having to projecting electrode.
Now here is the rub.
New NGK plugs have no glaze on the insulation 9 Some sort of EPA regulations ) so once they get fouled they stay that way unless you burn off the deposits.
Wire brushing leaves a conductive path down the 1/3 end of the insulator that is exposed.
Modern "fuel" is not petrol and is highly conductive at cylinder pressures and sparking voltages . If the plug is not hot enough to burn off these deposits it will go bad and can only be recovered by burning off.
NGK's heat ranges are a lot tighter than a Champion.
Most Champions span 3 to 5 NGK heat ranges and 3 Bosh heat ranges.
Champions do have glaze on their insulators so are less prone to cold fouling.

As such a bike fitted with Champions might just fire after 20 or so kicks from cold where as a bike fitted with NGK's  will have fouled plugs after 3 or 4 kicks.
So the rule I use is to run the carb dry if I have been on the bike for less than 1/2 hour.
Longer than that & I can use the decompressor without worry.

As to the quality of standard spark plugs.
I get BP NGK's for $ 2.00, wholeslale.
The wholesaler runs at a 100% mark up so they are paying $ 1.00 a plug, delivered.
They order through a distributor who also gets a cut of that $ 1.00
The boxes cost 3¢ ( single plug ) the cartons 5¢ ( 10 plugs ) and the shipping box $ 2.00 ( 200 plugs )

So how much profit per plug does a spark plug company make ? 1¢ , 2¢.
Whatever it is it can not be much so the quality of standard almost no profit plugs will always be dubious.
I go through around 400 plugs a year and am yet to get one bad out of the box.
Two strokes get Champions because of their greater resistance to cold fouling while four stokes get NGK's cause they run better.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: BSA500 on 17.05. 2018 12:56
I use BP's in everything as they tend to stay cleaner for longer having to projecting electrode.
Now here is the rub.
New NGK plugs have no glaze on the insulation 9 Some sort of EPA regulations ) so once they get fouled they stay that way unless you burn off the deposits.
Wire brushing leaves a conductive path down the 1/3 end of the insulator that is exposed.
Modern "fuel" is not petrol and is highly conductive at cylinder pressures and sparking voltages . If the plug is not hot enough to burn off these deposits it will go bad and can only be recovered by burning off.
NGK's heat ranges are a lot tighter than a Champion.
Most Champions span 3 to 5 NGK heat ranges and 3 Bosh heat ranges.
Champions do have glaze on their insulators so are less prone to cold fouling.

As such a bike fitted with Champions might just fire after 20 or so kicks from cold where as a bike fitted with NGK's  will have fouled plugs after 3 or 4 kicks.
So the rule I use is to run the carb dry if I have been on the bike for less than 1/2 hour.
Longer than that & I can use the decompressor without worry.




As to the quality of standard spark plugs.
I get BP NGK's for $ 2.00, wholeslale.
The wholesaler runs at a 100% mark up so they are paying $ 1.00 a plug, delivered.
They order through a distributor who also gets a cut of that $ 1.00
The boxes cost 3¢ ( single plug ) the cartons 5¢ ( 10 plugs ) and the shipping box $ 2.00 ( 200 plugs )

So how much profit per plug does a spark plug company make ? 1¢ , 2¢.
Whatever it is it can not be much so the quality of standard almost no profit plugs will always be dubious.
I go through around 400 plugs a year and am yet to get one bad out of the box.
Two strokes get Champions because of their greater resistance to cold fouling while four stokes get NGK's cause they run better.

From what you said the champions might be my best bet. Glazed and a quite forgiving heat range. As I am not sure what exact plug to go for as a lot of people seem to change the 'recommended' grade as they don't suit their engines. So what is the champion plug I need for an alloy headed A7 running on 95 octane unleaded. Typically traveling 13 miles each way to work down and around country lanes.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: berger on 17.05. 2018 13:33
well you could try champion L85 which is very similar to NGK 6 range *dunno* see how you go
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: Billybream on 17.05. 2018 13:44
Years ago N3 was always first choice in the UK and recommended by BSA, but choice then was limited.
I.ve tried various other manufacturers and are using NIK B6ES which are currently recommended  by SRM.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: RogerSB on 17.05. 2018 15:00
1960 GF (so iron head). Earlier last year I was using NGK B6HS but they were fouling regularly and then I had one that failed completely so I changed to Champion L82C (modern version of  L7 I believe). Still using those same plugs today and never had a problem since. That's until yesterday when out for a ride with my wife as pillion and we left the bike parked for about 10-15 minutes and when we returned it wouldn't start. Kick, kick, kick, curse, curse, no good. Thought first thing to do is remove the plugs, give it a few kicks to clear the fuel and try again. Luckily I carry tools and a few essential spares in the tool box so I set about removing the nearside plug, the plug looked fine. Went to remove the offside one and the plug cap was just resting on the top of the plug. I think it may have been someones idea of a bit of fun *angry*. Put my tools away and bike fired on the first kick *smile*.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: duTch on 15.10. 2018 01:36

 I needed new plugs (longish stories, and lucky there was a pub on the way), and was looking at the NGK site;
 
 https://www.ngk.com.au/products/spark-plugs/ (https://www.ngk.com.au/products/spark-plugs/)

 ...and spotted the 'Firing and Construction' column so decided I'll try the B6EY / BP6EY instead of the standard B6ES/BP6ES- has anyone used these, and if so what outcome?
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: berger on 15.10. 2018 01:49


 I needed new plugs (longish stories, and lucky there was a pub on the way),

I use B7es and pubs , so today I will be mainly having a slurp now another year has passed [TIME FLYS] cheers everyone *beer* *countdown*
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: duTch on 15.10. 2018 02:49

 Weeel Happy Days- what a crazy coincidence, it just so happens this side of the globe (or for flat-earthers, 'the slab') is back in the same place as it was a whole year ago too....how time flies, seems like it hasn't even mooooved... *beer* (mysteries of the Universe)

 So Story #2 goes like so;  headed out on the Gutzzly Sat. morn but by the end of the block started misfiring ...only had to go another block and back (in the actual RAIN- no brolly), figured it'd kick in, but no avail...on return pulled the caps before shutdown, left faltered when I pulled that (to be expected), RHS no change *except* when the cap was just close enough but not solid, it started to fire as per normal  *conf2* (NGK resistor caps)....not BSA, but curious why so that's where the BP6EY plugs went, and headed out for a test yesterday (Still actual RAIN), and after about a mile faltered and died altogether.....and the battery slowly drained- not so hard to bump-start- but to no avail *pull hair out*...then I figured probably run better if I turn the fuel on *bash*....
  Story #1 was the Beeza Friday- left work, but only about a mile or so started running rough again, and then completely died....so only a couple of small uphills, but mostly downhill or flat back to the ranch, started pushing, then fortuitously had to pass by the hipster pub (needed a *** and it had just started drizzling, but shitty boutique beer in a brandy style glass *conf2*- the only other time I called in was served by a girl I know)
 
 Still working on that, but stuck a meter on the plugs to find open circuit (infinite resistance)- hence the foray to the NGK www.
  (been erratic idle for a while, but checked points/timing/valve-lash/pickup/earth brushes a couple weeks ago)

 





Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: kiwipom on 15.10. 2018 03:10
 *sleepy* *sleepy* *sleepy*
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 15.10. 2018 06:18

 I needed new plugs (longish stories, and lucky there was a pub on the way), and was looking at the NGK site;
 
 https://www.ngk.com.au/products/spark-plugs/ (https://www.ngk.com.au/products/spark-plugs/)

 ...and spotted the 'Firing and Construction' column so decided I'll try the B6EY / BP6EY instead of the standard B6ES/BP6ES- has anyone used these, and if so what outcome?

I use BP6HS or BP7HS with no problems.
NGK std electrodes sit a little deeper that champions so they are more prone the shielding and fouling.
Even then , until the engine is really full hot ( 15 minutes + ) if the bike has to be stopped, it is turn the fuel off & starve the engine off.
Otherwise the slop we get here will leave a conducting  coating over the center electrode.
The Y plugs just have a V shaped ground electrode and were designed for hard to ignite fuels like methanol or LPG.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: duTch on 15.10. 2018 07:02

 
Quote
.....The Y plugs just have a V shaped ground electrode and were designed for hard to ignite fuels like methanol or LPG..

 Yep that's the kind of info I was after.... was no B*EY readily available so will try the 'P' types again- the standards are what I usually run in the Gutzzly and work fine when I remember to feed it go-juice  *smile*
 Has anyone actually used them ?
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: Black Sheep on 15.10. 2018 07:13
I use NGK B7ES or B6HS depending on the bike. No probs. Most recent ignition problem - misfiring, lost tickover - was traced to the HT leads coming away from the plug caps. HT cable was bought through VMCC so presumably Wassell. The HT leads had rusted. Rusting copper??? Something wrong there.
Replaced with proper copper leads from the Green Spark Plug Company.
The other thing to check is soft carbon brushes. Can cause lots of problems as they wear down to nothing and coat the slip ring with nice conducting carbon.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: duTch on 15.10. 2018 09:36


 I forgot to say I went to the NGK page after I read this after a search (didn't realize initially that it's a car page, but same-same enough);
 http://atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/plugs/index.html (http://atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/plugs/index.html)

 So my short question was intended as 'Has anyone tried NGK plugs with grooved tips ie; B*EY/BP*EY ', and if so how was the experience ?

  Thanks BlaSh, I already did most of the above but it's been raining for a few days so can't really do successful testing, and don't want to hijack the topic with diagnostics ... *wink2*...and the Gutzzly works when I remember....

 I wasn't going to bother with the background crappy stories- just one two of those 'had to be there' type situations

Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: Greybeard on 15.10. 2018 11:00
For good or ill, I bought some new old stock Lodge plugs online. I declag them on my wire brush. They work for me.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: berger on 15.10. 2018 13:04
dutch bit off topic but, mysteries of the universe is a phone call I have just received off the guy who sold me the bike 40 yrs ago, we were pondering how we've made it to 59 years old within 10 days of each other, taking into account I conked out 8 yrs ago *problem* [ no spark]. I must be running with petrol turned on and hot tip plugs. right off to celebrate black and tans to be consumed *beer* *countdown* *good3*
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: bikerbob on 15.10. 2018 16:18
 I was told a few years ago by someone who sells and restores classic bikes that you must never clean modern plugs with a wire brush because the white ceramic part is now not glazed and the wire brush contaminates it. Befor this I did use to clean with a wire brush and did have problems with some plugs namely NGK but since I now clean my plugs with compressed air grit cleaner which I bought from Machine Mart I have never had any misfiring plugs.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: Greybeard on 15.10. 2018 16:34
I was told a few years ago by someone who sells and restores classic bikes that you must never clean modern plugs with a wire brush...
The plugs I'm using are deffo not modern, so I feel ok about wire-brushing them.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 17.10. 2018 10:29
I was told a few years ago by someone who sells and restores classic bikes that you must never clean modern plugs with a wire brush because the white ceramic part is now not glazed and the wire brush contaminates it. Befor this I did use to clean with a wire brush and did have problems with some plugs namely NGK but since I now clean my plugs with compressed air grit cleaner which I bought from Machine Mart I have never had any misfiring plugs.

Yes, that is correct.
The easy qay to keep them clean all you have to do is starve the engine off.
As the carb runs out of fuel it will burn very lean and clean all of the crud off the plugs.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: duTch on 17.10. 2018 16:29

 For what it's worth, by chance yesterday I pulled the plugs from my Hilux, to find they are 'Y' series plugs - I knew I'd seen 'em somewhere before. *bright idea*..these are BP5EY (replacing N11EYC)...not BSA though, but funny all my petrol engines run same-ish plugs *conf*
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: wortluck on 17.10. 2018 17:19
B6HS in my ironhead - no probs.  Bought a pile off fleabay dead cheap and so far not missed a beat.  Change them when I feel like it - last ones did 3k and showed no problems.  Maybe I've been lucky?? *dunno*
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: RDfella on 17.10. 2018 20:17
I notice resistor plug caps have been mentioned. They should not be used with a magneto.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: duTch on 17.10. 2018 22:17
 
Quote
I notice resistor plug caps have been mentioned. They should not be used with a magneto.

 That was probably me referring to the episode with my Gutzzly(Bosch W5DC), which by 'coincidence' went out in solidarity with the A10....."one out-all out"  ....weeell only one Bosch- the one not stamped 'Germany' *pull hair out*....I don't have resistor caps on the A10(old-school Champions);
 
Quote
...........RHS no change *except* when the cap was just close enough but not solid, it started to fire as per normal  *conf2* (NGK resistor caps)....not BSA, but curious why so that's where the BP6EY plugs went, .............

 
Quote
Yes, that is correct.
The easy qay to keep them clean all you have to do is starve the engine off.
As the carb runs out of fuel it will burn very lean and clean all of the crud off the plugs.

 I don't have a reserve on the A10, but Gutzzly does, and I run it until I get to reserve, and then fuel up, so ^^that happens at least every thankful (tankful for reserve *whistle*)



Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: worntorn on 18.10. 2018 15:39
I bought some cheap eBay NGKs and they are fakes. I suspect most NGK plugs for sale on eBay are fake.
Ignorance is bliss tho. I did not know about the fake NGK problem until recently so I ran the plugs and they worked fine for quite awhile.
Once I learned they were fakes I got rid of them. Not worth chancing a plug losing its innards down the bore or just dying.
On checking the new remaining ebay fakes ( l bought a BIG box!) I found infinite resistance terminal end to electrode on most.
On the authentic new NGKs I found continuity
from  terminal end to electrode.

Glen
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: JulianS on 18.10. 2018 15:55
Post 1953 BSAs would have been fitted with resistor plug caps as original equipment due to UK legislation. I have never seen anything in Lucas service bulletins advising against resistor caps.

Over the past many years my high comp alloy head A10 has sometimes used resistor caps and sometimes non resistor and i have not had any problems either way.

Currently using new old stock Champion N4G gold paladium plugs, bike seems happier with them than with the current production N4C.
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: RDfella on 18.10. 2018 16:52
As JulianS says, resistor caps were fitted to comply with legislation. The fact they reduce the spark, can make starting significantly more difficult and can damage the magneto had to be overlooked.
http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/faqs/FAQs%20about%20magnetos%20generally/Are%20suppressors%20and%20resistor%20sparking%20plugs%20OK%20to%20use%20with%20magnetos.htm
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: wortluck on 18.10. 2018 21:53
Just checked my NGK B6HS plugs and they're all genuine.  £8 for 12 on fleabay, not bad!! *woo*
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: Greybeard on 18.10. 2018 22:41
Just checked my NGK B6HS plugs and they're all genuine.  £8 for 12 on fleabay, not bad!! *woo*
How can you tell?
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: wortluck on 18.10. 2018 22:56
Hey GB, check out some of the YouTube vids.  Key things are having a four digit code on the hex, packaging correct with appropriate trade marks, colour of packaging, making sure the crush washer doesn't fall off past the threads, etc, etc.

Of course, anything can be counterfeited, but the plugs stand up to testing for continuity, etc.  Ultimately, do the bloody things work.  The ones I bought have stood up to a lot of stick over many 000s of miles, so that's enough for me.

I stand to be shot down in flames but, the proof of the pudding......................!!!!

I have not been to the pub but have emptied the fridge of beer (hic)
Title: Re: Spark plugs
Post by: duTch on 01.11. 2018 10:07

 With regard to;
 
Quote
... Reply #19 on: October 15, 2018, 12:49:42 »....

 So my problem was not actually Spark plugs, but turns out the slip-ring had blown a hole in the shaft side so was doing progressively intermittent arcing until it just failed completely...I think I need to elaborate further elsewhere