The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: BSA500 on 22.05. 2018 12:45
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Well here go again. Audible clunk when the cranks moved in and out. Cush nut fully kin tight 65ftlb. no other work done so timing bush ok no up and down play. The reason why I don't know but there will be careful checks. Oh no shim break up either. My question other than why *pull hair out*. Can you reduce the clearance to around zero without issues. There is plenty of side movement on the pistons/conrods is it necessary to have some allowance??
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Have you measured it? It can produce quite a clunk with very little movement (less movement than you'd expeect), but I'll let the others talk you through the rest....
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I have to much experience with this issue(don't ask).This movement is too much and the vibration is horrible. I can also try to sort out an annoying tapping/clattering.
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I flooded mine on sunday and when it did the odd fire I heard this horrible clunk noise too, its not long ago that I built her up. theres nothing on the sump plate regards shims like there was a few years ago but I do intend to investigate end float when changing the gearbox in the near future, I do know the metal on metal sound is a horror to hear you have my best wishes on finding a cure or reason for this and I hope I get an answer regarding my CLUNK , ime hopeing its not end float because a got that to about 1 and half thou.
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G'day BSA500.
I agree with duTch, measure the endfloat first before pulling it down. If it's under 5 thou" I'd just monitor it.
Was the bearing a tight fit on the crank and the outer a shrink fit in the case? How much shim did you use?
Cheers
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The bearing is fitted using loctite 641 and I have bent bearings in The past trying to shift them. The trick is to dissolve the loctite using acetone.
Cannot remember what shim pack I used but the noise vibration is horrible so it's coming down I shall measure the float before.
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Had an idea on How to make the shimming quicker and hopefully a little more accurate.
Take the crank out and clamp into a vice carefully. Remove shims bearing etc. Slide the bearing on- not all the way and then assemble the shock absorbed sleeve sprocket and tighten fully. Measure the gap shim and put back into the crankcase and a final check with a dial gauge. Any pit falls and has everyone else been doing this for years
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NNNOOOOOO.
It all depends on where the outer race sits in the case and any wear on the thrust face of the timing side bush.
The end float of the crank is between the bush on one side and the bearing rollers against the outer race lip on the other side.
It's a PITA job but it must be done the way it's always been done.
Nice try though.
Cheers
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Dear Muskrat, since I will soon be doing this job, what exactly in detail is the PITA method?
I do have the original crankshaft shim pack out of my unopened A7SS ( until I opened it) and a new one. Shall I just assemble up a new shim pack to the old dimensions?
I will also be using the same Steel backed TS bush that also came out of the bike, but with a new SAE220 insert.
A
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G'day Peter.
1st if the T/S bush has been removed from the case may as well drop it in the bin. It wont go back in EXACTLY as it was and will need to be line bored again making it too big for the crank.
Once the bush is in and line bored/reamed to suit the crank. Put the drive side bearing outer in the case (heat the case and freeze the race) and the inner on the crank (I soak mine in boiling water for a few minutes and it drops on all the way). Now assemble the cases together (torque all the bolts) and fit all the cush components and torque the cush nut (65ft/lb). Now measure the end float with a dial gauge. This measurement less 1 thou" is the shim size needed (may need more than one shim but don't use more than three, get thicker ones). Now it all comes apart again to install the shims behind the inner race. Removing the inner race can be difficult, I first pour boiling water over it. If that don't work I pop the rollers out of the cage and use a bearing spliter type puller to remove it.
Once the shims are in place and inner race back on assemble again to recheck the end float. Sometimes it may need to be done more than once.
Cheers
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Dear Muskrat,
No problem on the first matter. I am using my OEM TS steel cage to have turned and pegged new insert made for it- it won't be lead bronze ( cant get it) by lead phosphor SAE660 and of course it will be line reamed. I have enough materiel in SAE 600 to actually to turn a whole one piece bush if I so decide..
For your second advice I do have a dial gauge and I have a wide selection of shims and shim stock too. Your description has been very helpful as to the exact figure I need and some tips to manage it. Luckily my inner DS bearing is not too stubborn and it toois original and in VGC, will not replace it...my bike will not be doing long mileages, mostly weekend small runs.. Cheers
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Musky, please explain why the engine shock absorber needs to be fitted. I did not fit mine when I reassembled my engine last time.
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Your right GB, the spring and sprocket can be left off, as long as it's all locked up snizentite. ::hh::
Now get back out in the shed and clean all those parts and polish the rods. You want it all ready for when parts arrive *lol*
Cheers
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OK you've still left me wondering. Are you saying the shock absorber nut needs to be done up?
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Yes, eliminates the possibility of the inner race moving on the shaft. I know if it's tight on the shaft it shouldn't but!
Just to be on the safe side I like to have it as though the motor is running.
Cheers
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Yes, eliminates the possibility of the inner race moving on the shaft. I know if it's tight on the shaft it shouldn't but!
Just to be on the safe side I like to have it as though the motor is running.
Cheers
Ah, OK, I get it!
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So do I now *smile*
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So did more stripping down. Endfloat is 5 thou not massive but enough for me. Biggest issue and source of noise/vibration is the really floppy timing side big end. When I rebuilt it there was some play but I was impatient to get riding. Big mistake it seems
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OK anyone who has seen the video sort of pulls a face similar to 'how didn't that go bang'. I have contacted a engineer who is going to check then most probably grind the journals(with the correct radius everyone). If we are talking about price £27.50 per side.
I can then reshim rocker arm play and clean up bits ready. Also clean and check the anti syphon valve ball etc.
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The engineer now has the crank for a grind and it looks like I have to make the grub screw for the anti syphon valve(67-1401) as nobody stocks them. In the wet sumping thread you will see I had left this part out and had been wet sumping for some strange reason *problem*
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...looks like I have to make the grub screw for the anti syphon valve(67-1401) as nobody stocks them. In the wet sumping thread you will see I had left this part out and had been wet sumping for some strange reason *problem*
It's the same Whitworth thread as the cylinder block studs.
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Yep but I had better use a bolt as I would have to but one of those as well *grins* *grins*
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I modify the retaining screw for the anti-sumping ball valve. From memory, the thread is 3/8 BSW.
To slightly increase the spring loading on the ball I make the screw a little bit longer; think it was about 0.080". I also machine a little recess in the centre (create a shoulder) which the spring locates in centralises it under the ball).
Richard
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Hay GB, you been using the Delorean again. The quote in your last post says 1974!!!!!
Cheers
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Hay GB, you been using the Delorean again. The quote in your last post says 1974!!!!!
Cheers
I guess I cocked up!
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Hay GB, you been using the Delorean again. The quote in your last post says 1974!!!!! Cheers
Saw that and thought my eyes had totally cocked out.. *eek*. Remember,remember the 4th (or 5th) of November......
Quote from: BSA500 on November 05, 1974, 04:00:44
...looks like I have to make the grub screw for the anti syphon valve(67-1401) as nobody stocks them. In the wet sumping thread you will see I had left this part out and had been wet sumping for some strange reason *problem*
It's the same Whitworth thread as the cylinder block studs.
I bought a spare plug & A65 spring from SRM, but was a couple of years ago....measured it at 16 T.P.I (3/8 ww), x 0.1735 long which is a nothing measurement between 11/64" & 3/16"
**...sorry 'Off Topic'.... I've had an issue with my now 4yr old Macbook where it saves files/pics on the 12/12 of whichever year I'm in- been onto Apple and spent a few hours on the phone doing 'screen-sharing' to sort it but no go. Is not a major issue until I had to prove I tried to pay my rego one day and couldn't get a connection-several times ..... *conf*
Normal Programming will now resume......
Pics;
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Crank grind done. One journal was 3 thou under the other. Could explain a lot
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Why is it whenever I need big end shells that size has become the rarest of the rare size. I need -30 I know Draganfly have them but they would at £72 plus post. Also SRM do but again £54 plus post. *sad2*
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More and more we are in the bullet-biting business when it comes to paying for the parts we need. Oddly, or unfortunately, or naturally, the prices go up because of our own friends and members here. I have pondered the question as to if parts scarcity is, in part, due to the forum making it much easier and welcoming to restore our marques. We HAVE grown a bit since 2006.
Richard L.
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I know what you mean,but the prices for these are quite reasonable from other trusted suppliers at around £30 but no stock. I had exactly the same problem years ago when I needed -20. Alot of the new shells are unbranded as well so some risk there.
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Hi All
I know what you mean,but the prices for these are quite reasonable from other trusted suppliers at around £30 but no stock. I had exactly the same problem years ago when I needed -20. A lot of the new shells are unbranded as well so some risk there.
Following on from my reply to GB about the quality of parts
Big end shells are something where quality branded parts are essential
If a maker will not put their name on the packaging its not worth buying
John
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Got the crank back from grinding looks good
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Okay took two days but I have the crank shimmed at 1 thou. Tightening the sleeve against the bearing did the trick. I had bolted it up and the crank locked, did up the sleeve and voila 1 thou. There was alot more to it than that but yay it is done and the reground crank is spot on as well *smile*
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i have not been to the pub, but will be because I can ;) well what can I say, my clunk now seems to have been the miss matched engine sprocket and sleeve. even tho they both could ride with each other they were not a good match. since ragging the crank about when changing the box and getting nothing more than the one and a half { mines a pint} thou it was set at it doesn't clunk anymore after fitting really good matching sprocket and sleeve. result! i'm going to have a gallon and celebrate BSA making several different set ups of these parts for owners to get confused with when other people have messed over the years *beer* KERLUNK!!!!
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Hi Muskrat, I need to gate crash this discussion as I will be doing this job very soon.
I’ve read your instructions to check/set the crankshaft end float several times with great interest as I’ve never had this explained to me before.
I just about understand it (you’ll be pleased to hear) but I can’t quite work out where the end-float actually is!!
Are we adjusting the end-float of the main bearing? I ask this as I think when we assemble the crank inside the casings and tightening the cush-drive nut up fully, it will put a side load on the bearing and take up any free play. This will presumably pull the crank shaft away from the timing side bush and tight into the main bearing.
I have included a couple of photo’s showing both sides of my LH casing, the bearing outer race still fitted and with the large bearing shim (67-349) in place and free to rotate.
Presumably when everything is tightened up the large bearing shim (67-349) is trapped tight between the inner race of the bearing on the inside and the boss of the cush drive bearing (67-2053) on the outside and rotates in the LH casing with the crankshaft?
I hope you can resolve my confusion on this.
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The arrangement locks the crankshaft to the drive side main bearing inner race so any expansion or float will be in the timing side bush. As the timing side bush supplies oil to the crank it needs to be pretty closely fitted, hence the crankshaft should have minimal endfloat. I believe this to be true but am willing to be told different.
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G'day Wayno.
With the inner race on the crank and all the cush/drive components done up it can slide back and forth in the outer race (the rollers are only trapped by the outer race on the outside). So once you put the other case on there is movement between the thrust face of the bush and the rollers against the lip in the outer race. Shimming between the inner race and the crank reduces this movement. Do NOT shim between the outer race and case as there is no mechanical clamping them in place other than the interference fit of the outer race in the case.
See clear as mud!
Cheers
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I woke up with one of those EUREKA moments. Of course, when its all nipped up the only free play can be between the crank and the bush. DOH!!
I knew where I had to get just couldn't visualise it. Must be all the sweat running in my eyes.
My old bearing must be similar to yours as I can pop the rollers out and get at the inner race to use a puller. The nice new bearing I received from DRAGANFLY yesterday (make QCB) looks great but can't pop the rollers out so cant separate inner race to remove it to add shims. I fear once its on - its ON!! I will have to return it. Do you know the make of bearings that you can pop the rollers out?
Very last question - is the crank end float 0.001" on all A7/A10 twins do you know?
Thanks for the help.
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G'day Wayno.
If your real careful a bearing separator type puller can work on the rollers. Set it all up and add a little pressure then pour boiling water over the bearing.
Cheers
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The arrangement locks the crankshaft to the drive side main bearing inner race so any expansion or float will be in the timing side bush. As the timing side bush supplies oil to the crank it needs to be pretty closely fitted, hence the crankshaft should have minimal endfloat. I believe this to be true but am willing to be told different.
G'day Wayno.
With the inner race on the crank and all the cush/drive components done up it can slide back and forth in the outer race (the rollers are only trapped by the outer race on the outside). So once you put the other case on there is movement between the thrust face of the bush and the rollers against the lip in the outer race. Shimming between the inner race and the crank reduces this movement. Do NOT shim between the outer race and case as there is no mechanical clamping them in place other than the interference fit of the outer race in the case.
See clear as mud!
Cheers
See, I talk a load of bollocks sometimes! I forgot that the drive side bearing has rollers. Lucky someone here knows what they are on about!
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I'm a slower typerator than Musko and BG...they both got in on me..
Posted by: Wayno
"....Of course, when its all nipped up the only free play can be between the crank and the bush. DOH!...."
On that side, but on the other side.....the rollers against the lip, as ;
Posted by: muskrat;
"....So once you put the other case on there is movement between the thrust face of the bush and the rollers against the lip in the outer race....."
Wayno, what engine is yours ?
I'm asking because that bit that shows in the picture looks like a Plunger engine part that I think later engines don't use- I had one in mine when I first bought it and always thought it was a oil-slinger type thing because the early Plungers to '54 had no seal, but I put one in (with LJ crank) and the 'Slinger' is now lost in history....
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Dutch,
She is a plunger a very early short stroke A7. Built Sep 1950 (before I was even a glint) Eng. No. ZA7-603.
I would guess it is an oil slinger too as it is clamped between the inner race of the bearing and the boss of the cush drive.
Guess it now spins at crankshaft speed and flings!! Would this be to stop engine oil sneaking into the chain case?
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..... Would this be to stop engine oil sneaking into the chain case?......
Yup- that's fairly much the way I see it...
Mine is a BA10 with stamps 23.12.52, so Ive always called it a '52, and that's how it's rego'd, but now I know it's a '53 engine in I reckon a ~'56 frame
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G'day Wayno.
ZA7 AFAIK was the last of the long strokes. My A7 plunger is AA7 and the 53rd one off the line. *dunno*
Cheers
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Hi All
Googling QCB bearings as I had never heard of the brand brings me to,
https://nbcgroup.co.uk/products/bearings/cylindrical-roller-bearings
I wonder *conf2 **????* *????* *????* *????*
John
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Yes, they are the ones as supplied by Draganfly. They do look very sturdy and well made. I'm now looking into acquiring a bearing separator to fit around the rollers (as suggested by muskrat) so I can remove the inner race without damaging it and adjust the end float.
I suppose one idea to avoid removing the race too many times is to temporarily place the shims between the crank and the bush (if that's possible) just to achieve the 0.001 - 0.003 thou end float then remove the inner race once and place the shims in their correct position.
Any comments on that thought guys?
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G'day Wayno.
Theoretically that would work BUT! Every time the outer race is inserted and removed from the case the crush on the race may diminish. The race is a C3 fit meaning it needs a certain amount of crush to bring it to the right dimensions (roller clearance). First you would need to assemble without shims and measure the end float to work out the shims needed. Then remove the race and put the shims in and assemble to check the end float. Then pull it all apart again to put the shims where their supposed to be behind the inner race. Seems like a lot of unnecessary work and risking the outer race fit in the case.
The correct way (mine anyway) to remove the outer race is to heat the case to about 200C, the race usually falls out. To insert heat the case and freeze the race. It will drop straight in.
With the shims where their supposed to be (behind the inner race) and the cush nut is done up to 65 ft/lb they are trapped and can't move. If its set up with one or two thou" end float and the shims are behind the outer race there is a possibility the outer race can move that amount and the shims are loose.
Just do it the right way and we won't have to get the trailer to rescue you! LOL.
Cheers
Edit: Some people have an inner race with a honed bore that slips on the shaft easily to take the end float measurement. Then replace with the new race. I don't subscribe to that method as there may be small differences in the race/roller dimensions, but it works for them.
Double edit: DOH, just re read your last post re shims on the other side. That could work.
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......I suppose one idea to avoid removing the race too many times is to temporarily place the shims between the crank and the bush (if that's possible) just to achieve the 0.001 - 0.003 thou end float then remove the inner race once and place the shims in their correct position.
Any comments on that thought guys?
I'm not sure what Musko is on *whistle* or if I just read it wrong, but Wayno if you mean between the sprocket bush and crank, it won't achieve anything, as it's just packing the bush out and they still move together... *spider*...- or if you mean the T/S Main bush, it's a bigger diameter so also fairly unlikely to work.... *conf2*
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Gents- I think the heat is affecting what few brain cells I have!! I did mean to temporarily put the shims between the crank and the T/S bush but of course dutch you are quite right the dia is bigger so no go. I have removed the old inner race using muskrats method of boiling water and I was stunned when it came off so easily leaving plenty of water for a well need cuppa :)
Armed with that knowledge, it should be straight forward to slip the new one on/off to adjust shims as you recommend.
Thank you all again for your experience. Now need to sort crank either find a better one or risk grinding further.
Cheers all
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This will be a new thread under this topic. Chose not to go in "Main Bearing Shimming" topic because of the unique method used there. Nothing unique here.
I was hoping everything would go smoothly and I wouldn't need help with shimming, which I've done several times.
Given that I wanted 0.001"-0.0015" float, I guess I miscalculated my shim stack, because I now seem to have zero float. The crank is not completely free-wheeling, but it's not bound-up either. I wanted a way to exprees the feel of turning the crank, so I tested it by mildly sqeezing the flywheel between the spread ring and pinky fingers of my weak hand. No problem turning whle using very little sqeezing force. Do I have an issue here or accidental perfection? I don't like to think of wear as a solution if it is, indeed, an issue. Maybe the smear of sealer between the crankcase halves should be thicker than usual.
I reeealy don't want to pull the bearing to adjust the stack. After a small debacle, it went on nice and tight. "Debacle," what debacle? Froze the crank and baked the bearing. That worked all too well, as there was enough clearance to allow the bearing to go on the shaft at an angle, THEN shink to the interference fit. Out comes the home made Frankenstein puller.
Richard L.
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It turns out I have about 0.0005' float (not zereo) and the crank is moving freely now. I had not lubed the main bearing during shim calculations. A few shots of oil and it now seems things are darn good. You could say I'm "chuffed" because it means the bottom end will go into the frame this weekend.
Richard L
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G'day Richard.
The only purpose of the 1.5 thou" when cold is to give just that "clearance when cold". As the motor warms the clearance grows as the cases expand more than the crank. Although 0.5 thou" is a little tight you might get away with it.
Cheers
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More by luck than skill * I got mine to about half a thou. I was rather pleased.
* The dial guage I bought to do the job was metric so reading microns
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G'day Richard.
As the motor warms the clearance grows as the cases expand more than the crank.
That seems to be right on the money. After reading, I went into the garage to check that I wasn't imagining 1/2 thou. I don't think I was, but it's back to zero (with the slightly stiffer turning) now that the garage is colder (snow overnight). Struggling with the thought of pulling the bearing. eee *work* *problem* *countdown* *conf2*
Richard L.
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Richard - remember Velocette cranks (albeit taper roller bearings) are actually under compressive pre-load - ie no clearance whatsoever.
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Richard if you have doubts gently blow lamp the cases and see how it frees up when warm
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Richard if you have doubts gently blow lamp the cases and see how it frees up when warm
Good idea. Going with a lamp, right now. 15 minutes should tell a story. Bear in mind, my garage is proobably around 40 deg. F. Right now. I don't ride in 40 deg. F.
Richard L.
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So, to avoid giving some wrong idea about rate of crankcase expansion, I'm correcting myself to say garage started between 45-50 deg. F. After about 20 minutes under the light, with case still kinda cool, clearance got to just under 0.001". A few minutes ago, after another hour passed, I remembered I own an infrared surface-temperature themometer "gun." With case around 80 deg., just over 1.5 thou. I gotta think this will be OK. Any further warnings or agreement? Offical Notice: No blame will be ascribed to your opinions.
Richard L.
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Well, My opinion is that you are a vey lucky fella, moreover a true mechanical genius working to tolerances beyond my skills. So there.
Swarfy.
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Hi Richard,
Have you fitted the spacer, cush drive assembly and tightened the nut to see if this affects the figures
If not, do so and then check the end float again ?
John
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Hi Richard,
Have you fitted the spacer, cush drive assembly and tightened the nut to see if this affects the figures
If not, do so and then check the end float again ?
John
John,
Thanks for this advice. Would you consider the fact that I thoroughly compressed the inner race in place with the cush nut, splined sleve, and spacers (outside the crankcase), to be about the same as you're suggesting?
I've moved the whole float-test rig outside to the 28 deg. cold. If the crank still rotates with a couple of fingers I think I should be ready to accept it. I know, I'm fighting like hell to avoid removing the bearing.
Richard L.
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GROAN!
38 deg. case, zero float, turns, but not by just a light sqeeze between ring and pinky fingers (you get that if you read my first post). OK, decided I may as well bite the bullet and reduce stack by 0.001". Went to use my home-made puller, but it appears there is no way to get it under the bearing. I think this bearing has a different type roller carrier than my previous bearings. As you can see in the picture, there is a skirt at the bottom. Not sure any puller could get under there. Had I thought about this, I would have put it in the other way. So, can the rollers be practcally removed and replaced with this type of carrier?
Let me say that I appreciate all comments, but I'm thinking the wrting may be on the wall to run it as is and go destructive on the bearing in the next rebuild.
Swarfy, I appreciate your comment, very much. Maybe I'll yet be able to live up to it.
Richard L.
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Do you have a wood chisel you could use to carefully ease the bearing race away from the web?
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The engineer now has the crank for a grind and it looks like I have to make the grub screw for the anti syphon valve(67-1401) as nobody stocks them. In the wet sumping thread you will see I had left this part out and had been wet sumping for some strange reason *problem*
[/quote
did you try Baxter cycle ?]
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Sean, Did you mean to post in "Crankshaft Shimming"?
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GROAN!
38 deg. case, zero float, turns, but not by just a light sqeeze between ring and pinky fingers (you get that if you read my first post). OK, decided I may as well bite the bullet and reduce stack by 0.001". Went to use my home-made puller, but it appears there is no way to get it under the bearing. I think this bearing has a different type roller carrier than my previous bearings. As you can see in the picture, there is a skirt at the bottom. Not sure any puller could get under there. Had I thought about this, I would have put it in the other way. So, can the rollers be practcally removed and replaced with this type of carrier?
Let me say that I appreciate all comments, but I'm thinking the wrting may be on the wall to run it as is and go destructive on the bearing in the next rebuild.
Swarfy, I appreciate your comment, very much. Maybe I'll yet be able to live up to it.
Richard L.
I used the blades of a couple of hunting knives they slide under the cage just twist them and the bearing should slide off ....if not get the misses to heat the brg up with a propane torch while your twisting the blades
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Sean, Did you mean to post in "Crankshaft Shimming"?
yes about the fellow having a problem removing the bearing from the shaft
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Sean,
I'm rhe fellow
Everyone,
For those trying to help in real time, hold on. I'm in the middle of removing the rollers. Not that hard. Will keep you posted. Yes, that's a threat.
Richard L.
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The rollers are out of the bearing and I'm trying to make new plates for my home-made puller so I can catch the upper lip, which I understand to be stiff. Nothing goes right when you're wrong by a thousandth of an inch. Now that the bearing is ready for the puller, I don't have a band for the bandsaw, or the right blades for the jig saw to cut the plates. Another trip to the hardware store. Thought I would be proudly showing engine in frame today.
Richard L.
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G'day Richard.
I was going to suggest that. Just number and note direction of the rollers (bugga too late).
Another method I've used is to put a hose clamp around the rollers and used a bearing puller on them. (bugga too late).
Cheers
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Double Bugga Too Late. For the sake of a Thou, a more generous application of sealer to the cases would have been worth a go.
Here my choice would be the deadly silicone, cases drawn lightly together and the seal left to harden, then a final tighten. Purists look away now.
Cage on this type of bearing best left narrow flare to the outside lip, wide flare to the crank. Not saying it was too tight, but the first start up and cases warmed allows things to settle and the cases expand to ease the axial load .On a manual vehicle transmission the plain Crankshaft Thrust Bearings take more load than the forces here, sitting in traffic with the clutch pedal to the floor, and if it would turn even with a fair amount of hand pressure I reckon well lubed to start with you'd have been fine.
Swarfy.
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G'dat Richard.
Not a good idea really. The cases are to be together with a hard face. Sealants are only to take up irregularities. To exaggerate your method would have the cases together with a flexible joint. Not the done thing.
Cheers
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I'll admit that I used an old wood chisel to ease the bearing away from the web, then a pair of tyre levers. I acquired some Volvo tyre levers many years ago; they've come in useful many times.
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SIGH.
.............................
Well, in deciding to fix the stack, I figured, "gotta use the puller sooner or later." The inability to use the puller set me on a track to figure that out, even if I wanted to reconsider fixing the stack. The fact that I had another scrap hinge laying around to make new plates for the puller also pushed me along. Two band saw blades later, the project turns into a shopping trip searching for good saw blades, maybe, today. (Yeah, yeah, I could saw slots and grind and all of that, but might as well see if I can get a high-speed steel jigsaw blade that will do it.)
Musky,
It's a new bearing. I'm guessing the factory doesn't select rollers for a specific orientation. In fact I've seen the "How It's Made" episode that shows bearing being made. They did sort finished ball bearings (and, I assume, rollers) by size, but after that, straight into the autoloader. Got ya' on the sealer, but beyond that now.
Guys,
Thanks for letting me rant. I know much of this is trivial.
Richard L.
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G'day Richard.
One of these would save time and aggravation.
https://tinyurl.com/y47jeann
Cheers
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Musky,
I recall your showing that before. You might have mentioned that it could work on the upper lip with the rollers removed. I could basically see that, but the radius of the grabber seems wrong. Definitely would not work grabbing beneath the lower lip, because the shims are in the way. If I ordered it now from Oz I suppose I would have it in about a month for some tremendous shipping cost. Haven't looked for it on eBay yet.
Richard L.
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G'day Richard.
It will work as you described and also with the rollers in but clamped with a hose clamp. It won't go between the bearing and crank web.
Surely there would be a place over there that has them. Harbor Freight comes to mind. https://tinyurl.com/yyh87j79
Cheers
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Musky,
That's pretty funny. Harbor freight is literally about eight minutes from me. From you, I'm thinking about $1,000 and 16 hours on a plane. You weren't planning on going back, were you?
Richard L.
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One of these would save time and aggravation.
https://tinyurl.com/y47jeann
+1 for that or similar. Quite a bit of choice out there, Google is our friend. Something made of decent stuff takes a lot of the pain out of these jobs.
Going on price alone can lead to disappointment though, as the knife edges can deform (under even moderate loads) or worst case bust off. DAHIK!
Even expensive ones do have a bit of a 'service life' it seems: theirs is a shitty job sometimes. My own SKF one is showing signs and has had to be 'dressed' (which doesn't do it any good) . . . and that cost me an arm and a leg . . .
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One of these would save time and aggravation.
https://tinyurl.com/y47jeann
+1 for that or similar.
Ohhh, I've got your "similar" right here (he said, gesturing below his belt). *smile* ;) Planning on a video for the amusement of seeing me bumble, fumble and ultimately succeed with my puller.
Turns out this just became a busy work week, so moving much more slowly than I wished.
Richard L.
EDIT: I'm not rewriting the above, because it's accidentally pretty funny, having left out the word "bearing" before the word "puller."
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The easy way is to just prize it off with a screwdriver. Of course, if the bearing is a tight fit on the crank, then aggravation ensues. Blame the guy who fitted the bearing, as it only needs to be a gentle push fit on the shaft. There is no engineering argument for having a press fit, except maybe the manufacturer keeping tolerances wide to save on cost / rejects.
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The easy way is to just prize it off with a screwdriver.
Not accustomed to you being sarcastic, RD. ;)
Richard L.
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The easy way is to just prize it off with a screwdriver.
Or wood chisel?
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Not a question of sarcasm, Richard, more of exasperation. This subject has been discussed many times, yet people still struggle with that bearing when there is no need. If the bearing is tight (not all are) then destroy it if necessary to get it off, but then ease the crankshaft with emery tape until the new bearing is a sliding fit. End of problem. As stated, there is no engineering reason for the bearing to be tight other than keeping manufacturing costs down by having wide tolerances. Worry about the bearing not being tight? On Ford Zetec engines the pulley which drives the cam belt, waterpump, alternator, PAS etc is not keyed to the crankshaft nor is it on a taper - it's not even a tight fit. If you tilted the engine sideways without the retaining bolt in place, the pulley would fall off. It is retained (and, unlike a bearing, needs to contend with considerable torque) simply by the friction created by the retaining bolt. The cam sprockets are the same - and they're plastic to boot!
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Don't want to argue too hard with RD, but am I the only one here that believes the main bearing inner race is intended as an interference fit?
Richard L.
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Richard,
The short answer is yes. The only worry I might have in easing the crank surface to get a sliding fit, is the possibility of fretting between the inner race and crank. As RD stated, in most cases it's probably not a concern. Especially if the cush nut stays torqued. That said, I seem to be the guy referenced out side of "in most cases"...............
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G'day Fellas.
The proper bearing is a C3 fit requiring both crush on the outer and a light interference fit on the shaft to give it the correct clearance of the rollers. A loose (sliding) fit on the shaft will give the rollers just that little bit more clearance and allow the shaft to rock. I know were only talking minuscule amounts but at 50 times a second @ 3000rpm *eek*.
The other consideration is if the cush nut loosens the bearing should stay put but if it does move it would be gradual. If the bearing is loose it won't take long to flop around like a prick in a shirt sleeve.
Cheers
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Musky is right - but how many people buy a C3 bearing - or, indeed, do their suppliers even know what that is? Moral is, when using a bearing with interference fit, use a bearing with more clearance, when no or little interference, use a standard bearing. And do that cush drive nut up tight! Personally, I don't belive in this 65ft/lbs stuff. Unless you've got the cylinders off and jamming the crankshaft from turning, how do you achieve that? Restraining the engine sprocket means the cush drive is pushing against the nut you're tightening, making the actual torque applied anyone's guess. A 3/4" thread should be anything up to 400lbs/ft depending on the steel used, so I consider 65 extremely conservative.
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I ease the shaft for a nice fit and set the end play. When all is good, I use a drop of Loctite on the bearing.
I am sure that my bearings are standard.
Works for me.
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I made mine a gentle tap on fit and used Stanley knife blades to start it on removal then thicker knife edges keeping them dead opposite , the secret is keeping it square to the shaft and trying not to damage the shim/shims like I did the first time *problem* *bash*
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Hi All,
This suggestion is going to make Richard Mad as to why he or anybody else didn't think of it *????*
Remember the crank was only a smidgin tight
I would have given the thrust face of the timing side bush a shave with a scraper or some emery cloth *bright idea*
John
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G'day John.
Not a bad idea at all. We're only talking a thou"
Being a F&T I'd need to scrape & blue a few times to eliminate high spots. If not you could end up with too much end float once the high spots wear off. But that's being pedantic I spose when considering the load and amount of use.
Cheers
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Hi All,
This suggestion is going to make Richard Mad as to why he or anybody else didn't think of it *????*
Remember the crank was only a smidgin tight
I would have given the thrust face of the timing side bush a shave with a scraper or some emery cloth *bright idea*
John
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Mad, I'm not mad, who's mad, why would anybody be mad? Haahahahahaha. If I was mad it would only be at myself. Now, if by "mad" you mean loony, that's another thing.
Actually, that's what I should have thought of and done. So easy with one of my sanding disks mounted in the drill press.
Anyway, considering all the chiding, teasing, mechanical criticism (some scary), loss of all integrity and dignity, I am sharing a link to the Youtube video I made showing me bumbling and fumbling with my homemade puller. Hoping you find it amusing and good for a laugh, in general, or maybe just at me. https://youtu.be/SuiQZnIYU-c
Richard L.
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I would most probably put the nuts on the studs then put bolts through all the other holes and smacked the end of crank with the nut fully tight and I bet bobs ya uncle it's ready to go *beer* Richard that was well worth watching I couldn't stop laughing when it set on fire.
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Great video!! Thank you Richard. Excellent lighting and storytelling commentary. Most impressed with the puller, patent pending i hope. Good luck with setting the stack and the rebuild. More videos please!
*beer* *yeah* *yeah* *good3*
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As an insurance advert in the UK says; "Simples!" *good3*
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G'day Richard.
Maaaaate. Sorry but that was painful *pull hair out*. only made it to 2:30 the 1st time *smile* Cut the studs shorter. I like the hollow spannere (wrentch). Luv'd the fire *ex* Heat the bearing all the way round.
I would have had it off berore you had the first nut done up *sleepy* You must be retired *razz*
Again sorry somebody has to tell you.
I appreciate the time and effort you put *yeah* in but a $50 puller can have many uses on a BSA.
Cheers
ps sorry but I'm celerbrating got 2 jobs (full time) to choose from today. 10 beers, 2xdouble rums and a smoke *ex* AND the wifes away *beer* And Alice cooper on the jukebox. And still in shed 8:30PM.
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I would have had it off before you had the first nut done up...
Well, OK, but what about the bearing? *whistle*
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I would have had it off before you had the first nut done up...
Well, OK, but what about the bearing? *whistle*
*lol*
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Musky,
Enjoyed your comments. Others will wish they took your warning regarding the video.
"Cut the studs shorter " Genius! The final piece in the puzzle I needed before setting up Chinese manufacturing and sending it to market.
I made the original version of this work of art (the puller, not the video) somewhere around 2006, so, if it's even imaginable, I knew less about A7/A10 engines than I do now. I figured the modifcation would work, even if it continued the circus. I think the video runs 11 minutes, so, quicker than a round trip to Harbor Freight (as if all the time in fab never happened).
Congrats on the job offers. If I drank 10 beers I couldn't walk, let alone read or type.
Richard L.
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Hi guys, I have my 1956 A10 s/a cases on the bench with my crank, with reground small journals, ready to fit. A new C3 RHP roller bearing fitted in the outer case. The roller inner slides onto the crank but not loose. I do not know the ancestry of the crank but the stuff I bought had a load of A10 plunger bits in so it could be earlier.
I have set up my dial indicator and checked the end float and it is 40 thou ( 0.040" ) It seems miles too much so is there something else I should be looking at. I can turn a spacer to fit behind the inner but 0.040" is hardy a shim.
The Haynes manual talks about shimming both ends of the crank to ensure centralising the crank/conrods ???
Is there a method of checking the central position before I fit conrods etc.
Help.....
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Hi guys, I have my 1956 A10 s/a cases on the bench with my crank, with reground small journals, ready to fit. A new C3 RHP roller bearing fitted in the outer case. The roller inner slides onto the crank but not loose. I do not know the ancestry of the crank but the stuff I bought had a load of A10 plunger bits in so it could be earlier.
I have set up my dial indicator and checked the end float and it is 40 thou ( 0.040" ) It seems miles too much so is there something else I should be looking at. I can turn a spacer to fit behind the inner but 0.040" is hardy a shim.
The Haynes manual talks about shimming both ends of the crank to ensure centralising the crank/conrods ???
Is there a method of checking the central position before I fit conrods etc.
Help.....
how is the bushing face on the timing side ?
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has it had a pattern part bronze bush fitted in timing side, yes make a spacer and harden it , your looking for a couple of thou end float when the drive side is all fastened up tight. MR haynes *pull hair out* *bash*
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I will go down the workshop in the morning and take the cases apart to check. The bush looked fine with no wear in the bore but I will look at the face. I have some Titanium bar to make a spacer so would save hardening ?
Thanks for the pointers.
The questions of the NF206 main bearing, I got mine from Bearing Revolution in Telford, U.K. it is an RHP, C3 steel cage and cost £48.57 incl vat and P&P. ( I have no connection to them )
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Have a close look at the crank webs in the area where the timing bush and inner race bear against the crank. Both sides should have a distinct area raised from the face of each web, to act as a bearing surface against the bush and as a seating for the inner race. Any variation from the norm here will result in greater freedom for the crank to float before being shimmed.
A further error can also be in the thickness of a pattern bush flange and its relationship to the case. A valid point there from sean, a thicker flanged custom bush may be required.
I understand the A 50/65 engines had a loose thrust washer here, urban myth? Is this what bergs means?
On the drive side I have seen cranks with a recess machined into the face of the web by a loose inner race, the next stage of damage after the crank shims have departed as swarf, the well known result of a too loose cush nut. This wear/damage is always a possible on an unknown crank of dubious source.
Swarfy.
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Swarfy, Crank webs are proud of the faces and the bush flange is 0.124" thick and is 0.031 above the retaining bosses. I machined a spacer at 0.038" thick and have done a dry assembly, the crank spins freely and I can detect no end play. I think a fine smear of sealant on the case faces should be about right.
When I assemble the drive side sprocket boss its clear I need a spacer for the right chain alignment and for the drive side seal to run on. Does anyone have any idea how thick they are ? the I.D. and O.D. are obvious.
I am going to work on the principle that if the crank face is running up against the timing side bush face it will be centralised.
Thanks all who chucked in their penn'orth.
Barry
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well mr shifta if you are making a collar for the oil seal to run on I think you should make it wide enough to align the sprocket with the clutch when the sprocket sleeve is on the crank and remember to put a relief in it to clear the crank where the inner race sits so it all pulls up ok. if this makes sense *doubt*
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I see what you mean Berger, I will wait until I finally get to fitting the gearbox/clutch and make the spacer to get the sprockets dead in line.
I think I have some stainless for the spacer or do you think it should be hardenened as the seal runs on it ? I don't think I have any toolsteel around to harden.
MrShifta
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the originals are hard and I will ferret around the shed tomorrow and find one I have for another engine. I will post measurements to give you a start
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That would be great mate, thanks.
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well that took some finding and I can't find one of the cranks I thought it was on, 3 garages ,spare bedroom ,shed ,kitchen ,living room and repeat *pull hair out* but it is 10mm wide, 42.8ish mm OD , 25.32ish ID this varies where it is measured, i'm sure it is a pattern part not an original. the bit to clear the crank radius so it buts up to the inner race goes half way in and from the ID ends up at 30mm . if this makes sense.
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Thanks a million mate, My missus is still laughing at you upending the house and buildings looking for for a spacer to measure.
She doesn't understand bike builders, now if she had lost her phone can you see me doing the same?
I am fitting rods on the crank this afternoon and if I have time put the cases together.
Wish me luck !
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MrShifta,
I wish I had the time today to do the exact same things you just named. Not suggesting a race, but we would be neck-and-neck. Unfortunately, can't happen today.
Richard L.
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Hi Richard, I am building the bike from boxes of bits from at least two bikes, a plunger and a s/a. It is the s/a that I am working on. There are several of the same parts, some worn , some rusty and some okay. The worry it that having cleaned up all of them and plated a load that at the end of the day there will be none that fit the bike. At least I can sell some nicely plated spares, not chrome just BZP. Did you strip yours to restore ?
I got the chassis/forks, s/a brakes and wheels all which had never been stripped from new (1954) as a rolling chassis. It has been standing since the late 60's.
Its good to be starting putting things back together at last. My workshop is cold so an hour before coffee and then back again for another hour. etc. There is an intercom between the bungalow and workshop as by U.K. standards our garden is quite big and means the workshop is 40 yds away. I turn down the volume as I can't hear my wife shouting " are you staying down there all night" ?
Take care.
Barry
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mr shifta we had two phones and you just pressed a chrome button and the one in the garage would ring to get my dad in for tea. when that failed my mum would open the dining room window and shout CYY--R--I--LLLL and the whole street could here. my dad would come in chuntering about he had to get a job done. sometimes he would set the lathe up skimming a disk come in for his tea and when he got back to the garage it would be on the last bit of cut, good memories.
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First, I'm a happy guy. One thou off the shim stack and one thou end float. Yay!
Barry,
The '57 A7 I'm workimg on was a fairly complete and original barn find when I bought it over five years ago (moving right along ;) ) It was, however, missing both the timing and drive-side covers, and the clutch when I bought it. I've bought the covers but haven't polished them yet. Glaciers wanting to win big money challenge me to races. I've had all the hard steel parts blasted and powder coated. I've finished the gearbox and it's in the frame. No chromework yet. Wheels a long way off. As for the tins, I've done most of the removal of the original paint and a weird blue respray. Final cleanup on tins will happen just before I'm ready to bondo. By now you should have the picture that my style is to get one thing done, then get the next thing ready to be done, rather than having everything done, pretty, and bolted together on the same day.
Richard L.
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The frustration, the waiting for parts, the torn knuckles, the hammered fingers, the frightening secret cost, the stress,. We love every minute 🤩
Cases together but home matters and helping a blind friend with paperwork will mean no workshop today Val has just had a call to go for her Phizer vaccine at 4pm,.