The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: lawnmowerman on 11.07. 2018 19:38

Title: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 11.07. 2018 19:38
Greetings all,

I have been involved in a few restorations over the past couple of years so my Super Rocket has been relegated to the back of the garage and only had the occasional outing.
I took it out last week and it suffered from a lot of clutch drag and difficulty engaging neutral - even on the move. I had a look at the cable adjustment which seemed ok so off came the primary cover - the first time since I bought the bike.

There was the correct amount of oil in the case but the chain seemed a bit tight. It looks like the PO fitted what I am reliably informed to be a brand new Triumph clutch - 5 friction plates and 4 springs. I removed the primary chain and noticed that the sides of the teeth on the engine sprocket were polished on the outside and a straight edge revealed that the sprocket needs to be moved inwards by about 1/8" to line up with the clutch sprocket.

Has anybody fitted a Triumph clutch and had the same issue? It looks like it may be possible to shave a bit off the inside face of the engine sprocket shock absorber centre to get things in alignment.

When I dismantled the clutch the plates were coated in a sticky residue which was probably causing the drag. I am assuming was the protective film on the new plain plates which the PO had not cleaned off before fitting so I have washed them clean ready to re-fit.

When it all goes back together I will get the chain adjustment right and use Castrol TQF - any views?

Many thanks

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: chaterlea25 on 11.07. 2018 22:41
Hi Jim,
It is a common enough problem  *sad2*
Here is a link to a post I wrote on the problems that can arise

https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=9646.msg70166#msg70166

HTH
John
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 12.07. 2018 09:35
Thanks John. A great write-up and exactly the info I need. I can compare your measurements of the 1960 A10 sleeve with the one I have. I suspect mine has an overwidth shoulder at the back which needs about 1/8" shaved off. My shock absorber looks like it will not have much movement on the cam lobes before the spring becomes coil bound and the extra 1/8" will help.

Regards

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 12.07. 2018 12:25
Hi John

My sleeve was near enough the size of your A10 sleeve shown in your topic so I will go for 1/8" off the back of mine to get alignment. I would imagine my clutch adaptor is a little short and it looks easier to correct it on the engine sprocket sleeve.
One other question - the clutch cover I have is grey coated pressed steel with the four brass nuts. The clutch action seemed a bit heavy before I stripped it. The springs I have measure 50.4mm in length with a wire dia of 2.35mm. Does this sound about right or should I order some smaller ones - and from where?

Many thanks

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 12.07. 2018 13:09
One other question - the clutch cover I have is grey coated pressed steel with the four brass nuts. The clutch action seemed a bit heavy before I stripped it. The springs I have measure 50.4mm in length with a wire dia of 2.35mm. Does this sound about right or should I order some smaller ones - and from where?

That sounds more like a pressure plate than a cover.

Does this help? http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=522943

The fitted length pressure in lb. ft. is per spring.
1.325" fitted length is with the nut tightened until spring bolt is flush with bottom of screwdriver slot. As coil bind can occur tightening more than the spring bolt flush with the face of the nut is not recommended.

definitions:
f.l. Free Length
ft.l. Fitted Length
w.d. Wire Diameter
c.b. Coil bind

57-1560 (650 4 spring clutch)
f.l. 1.975"
ft.l.= 1.325" @ 32 lb. ft.
w.d=.090"
c.b. = .790"

57-1830 (650 3 spring clutch)
f.l.= 1.815"
ft.l. = 1.325 @ 43 lb. ft.
w.d.= 0.104"
c.b.= 0.900"

57-4644 (750 twin 3 spring clutch)
f.l= 1.716
ft.l.= 1.325"@ 53 lb. ft.
w.d 0.115"
c.b. 1.025"

After Market
Emgo 88-57493 (replaces 57-1830)
f.l. = 1.755"
ft.l. = 1.325" @45 lb. ft.
w.d. = 0.104"
c.b. 0.865"
Barnett 501-86-03075 (old MT-75-3)
f.l. = 1.755"
ft.l. = 1.325"@ 45 lb. ft.
w.d. = 0.105"
c.b. = 0.865"
Precision Machine (not recommended for street use)
f.l. 1.886"
ft.l. = 1.325" = 72 lb. ft.
w.d. = 0.113"
c.b. = 0.965"
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 12.07. 2018 13:40
Thanks TT, useful information.
Yes I did mean the outer domed pressure plate but called it a cover plate in a grey moment  *smile*

I have been looking at Draganfly and Feked websites for springs. The cups I have are 35mm long so seem right but I think that the 50mm springs I have are for a 3 spring clutch. Feked are listing 45mm springs which have one coil less than mine so I have ordered some to try.
Having looked at some other posts regarding heavy clutch action, I checked my handlebar lever fulcrum distance and it is 1 1/8" instead of the original 7/8" so that may be a contributing factor to the heavy action.

Thanks

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: JulianS on 12.07. 2018 14:07
Got my SRM 4 spring clutch out at moment;

Springs 50mm long, wire approx 2.25mm diameter.

Cups 35mm end to end.

Spring pins 48mm under head.

Handlebar lever pivot 7/8 inch.

Nice light progressive action clutch, no slip no drag.
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: JulianS on 12.07. 2018 14:27
A65 springs are approx 45mm long and from 2.7mm diameter wire for the 3 spring setup.
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 12.07. 2018 14:45
Thanks Julian - exactly the info I was after. My springs and cups are the same as yours although I am not sure I understand how to make the spring pin measurement. My handlebar pivot is 1 1/8" instead of 7/8" so that would make the action heavier and not as progressive. I can live with it at the moment - it was just that a mate said he thought that it was heavier than it should be. I will try the shorter springs when they come and make sure they do not make the clutch slip before I refit the primary cover.

Thanks

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 12.07. 2018 14:51
A65 springs are approx 45mm long and from 2.7mm diameter wire for the 3 spring setup.

That's interesting - Feked are listing them for three and four spring clutches. They do not show the wire diameter - mine are 2.3mm so they may not make a lot of difference.

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: chaterlea25 on 12.07. 2018 22:33
Hi Jim,
Feked by name and fecked by nature  *angry*

The A65 springs will make the clutch action very very heavy *warn*

SRM have the correct springs for the 4 springer

John
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 13.07. 2018 09:24
I find FEKED to be cheap and dependable, if not particularly knowledgeable.

I think Lawnmowerman already has the right springs.
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: chaterlea25 on 13.07. 2018 21:56
Hi TT,
Quote
I find FEKED to be cheap and dependable, if not particularly knowledgeable

Hmmm  *????* *????* *????*

I have not dealt with them myself but GB's experience with the cam followers and the (lack of) quality and bad fit on a set of Guzzi silencers a friend bought, means I will not chance dealing with them

John
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: Greybeard on 13.07. 2018 22:19
I've been pleased with their stuff in the past; particularly the exhaust system.
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 13.07. 2018 22:19
Hi Jim,
Feked by name and fecked by nature  *angry*

The A65 springs will make the clutch action very very heavy *warn*

SRM have the correct springs for the 4 springer

John

Thanks John.
I think changing the 1 1/8" handlebar levers to 7/8" will probably help a lot. The springs I already have are one coil longer than the SRMs. Unfortunately SRM do not give dimensions.
The Feked ones I have ordered look the same gauge as mine but are one coil shorter (9 rather than 10) making them 45mm long rather than 50mm. I will see what they look like when they arrive tomorrow.

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: coater87 on 13.07. 2018 23:03
 I really believe it is this exact argument that has kept the imagined value of the British motorcycles down.

 Without getting too wordy, there are enough owners of British bikes that will completely sacrifice quality in the pursuit of cheap.

 This is reflected back on the imagined value, because these bikes have a perceived reputation (deserved or not) of being cobbled together by cheap skate owners.

 A couple of years ago I am at a small bike show. A guy with a  mid 70s Triumph is bragging about how he only replaces one piston ring on each piston.

 Next time he replaces one ring and the oil controll ring, this saves him money.

 I think the other bike owners were pretty shocked by this,  the majority of the bikes here are certainly Harleys. These people pride themselves on sparing no cost on keeping their bikes running and looking good.

 Off topic I know, but relevant to the conversation I think. There are good quality parts available for these bikes, we just have to decide if we are going to pay for them, or except whatever we get from the generic parts sellers.

 Lee

 
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: duTch on 14.07. 2018 00:32

 
Quote
..... or except whatever we get from the generic parts sellers.

 Do you really mean 'except' or 'accept' as I think you do...?  *conf2*
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: coater87 on 14.07. 2018 01:15

 
Quote
..... or except whatever we get from the generic parts sellers.

 Do you really mean 'except' or 'accept' as I think you do...?  *conf2*

 

 In school, I did very well in math and science.

 Sentence structure and spelling did not interest me in the least, so as you would expect I did very poorly in those classes.

 I am an electrician by trade, and outside of this forum I do very little actual writing.

 So to be completely honest, I don't know which of the examples are correct. *sad2*

 Lee
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: duTch on 14.07. 2018 08:30
 Lee- I didn't pass English in upper grsdes, I think mainly due to the analytical side of it (eg: give a precis of this poem or that book or play-script)...I don't mind that shit, but if one doesn't say what 'they' wan to hear, I'm fuarked....but I did garner points in a 2nd grade spelling quest... *eek*
 For the record from a non-linguist, 'accept' is when you agree to something. 'Except' is when something is a bit different to the other...in very basic terms
 
 I'm NOT being a smartarse(ass) just trying to help make things clear

 ** I've said it before, and I'll be very clear that they didn't like me at school either *smile*
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: morris on 14.07. 2018 09:13

 
Quote
..... or except whatever we get from the generic parts sellers.

 Do you really mean 'except' or 'accept' as I think you do...?  *conf2*

 

 In school, I did very well in math and science.

 Sentence structure and spelling did not interest me in the least, so as you would expect I did very poorly in those classes.

 I am an electrician by trade, and outside of this forum I do very little actual writing.

 So to be completely honest, I don't know which of the examples are correct. *sad2*

 Lee
Drifting completely off topic here but in my experience people who are good in maths are often lousy in languages and those who are good in languages are often bad in maths... must be a brain thing I guess *dunno*
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: duTch on 14.07. 2018 09:44


 
Quote
..Drifting completely off topic here but in my experience people who are good in maths are often lousy in languages and those who are good in languages are often bad in maths... must be a brain thing I guess *dunno*

 ohyeah... except when mayb esomeone is dyslaxicly chillaxed... *conf*

 
Quote
...The Feked ones I have ordered look the same gauge as mine but are one coil shorter (9 rather than 10) making them 45mm long rather than 50mm. I will see what they look like when they arrive tomorrow.

 The fact they are shorter with same windings/diameter/wire gauge doesn't make them lighter, it just means the adjusters screw in further before they engage- and then the load factor stays the same


Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 14.07. 2018 10:03
I really believe it is this exact argument that has kept the imagined value of the British motorcycles down.

 Without getting too wordy, there are enough owners of British bikes that will completely sacrifice quality in the pursuit of cheap.

 This is reflected back on the imagined value, because these bikes have a perceived reputation (deserved or not) of being cobbled together by cheap skate owners.

 A couple of years ago I am at a small bike show. A guy with a  mid 70s Triumph is bragging about how he only replaces one piston ring on each piston.

 Next time he replaces one ring and the oil controll ring, this saves him money.

 I think the other bike owners were pretty shocked by this,  the majority of the bikes here are certainly Harleys. These people pride themselves on sparing no cost on keeping their bikes running and looking good.

 Off topic I know, but relevant to the conversation I think. There are good quality parts available for these bikes, we just have to decide if we are going to pay for them, or except whatever we get from the generic parts sellers.

 Lee

The difference in attitudes had puzzled me for years till I started meeting £ 10 poms and realized that many residents of the cold wet & windy island did not particularly want to be motorcyclist but had it forced upon them because of the low wages & high costs of private transport. Where as in the USA & Australia we were mostly motorcyclist by choice.
So it was not desperately urgent that the bike was running 365 days a year and as cheaply as possible.
However being a colony, true to the Mother Country we eventually imported the UK cheapskate approach to British motorcycles, which I largely put down to the predominance of the blue & the green.
This to a large extent explains why the same person will happily spend $ 10,000 on his Ducatti that rarely see the tarmac but baulk at a $ 10 part for his British steed ( Brough & Vincent owners excepted ) that he rides every weekend.
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: bsa-bill on 14.07. 2018 11:07
 a lot of truth in all the above, however there are parts that we do just have to use due to there being no others available (possibly also due to the reason given above).
On the language side of things I was continually getting punished at primary school ( 3 foot length of bamboo cane, the delivery end wrapped with string and selotape, 3 stroke on each hand) for spelling mistakes, at secondary school I was never in trouble at all in fact they made me a prefect (not perfect), thing is I still find spelling a bit of a mystery at times due I think to the vagaries of English and a hatred of Bamboo
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 14.07. 2018 13:58
Well the Feked springs arrived today - 45mm long which is 5mm (one coil) shorter than the 10 coil ones I have but the coil wire is thicker so my logic is that I will have to screw the adjusters in further and the clutch action will be heavier due to the heavier spring wire.
I am losing the will to live on the spring issue so I will fit the 10 coil springs I have back in.
The engine sprocket centre sleeve had 1/8" trimmed off the back face this morning and the sprockets now line up nicely so it's off to the garage to put it all together.

Thanks for all the advice - I may be back tomorrow with more questions  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: duTch on 14.07. 2018 17:31

 For what it's worth, if the springs were the same length with one less winding, they would also be heavier....I bought new springs for my Plunger 6-springer, and they sent me springs wound the wrong way, so haven't used them either.

 
Quote
......the delivery end wrapped with string and selotape,......

 don't want to stray off topic;...not picking on you Bill, but if you mean 'Cellotape' is because it's made from cellulose from plants, same as some 'new products like 'Tencel/lyacell ' & bamboo socks.....
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 14.07. 2018 17:49

 
Quote
......the delivery end wrapped with string and selotape,......

 don't want to stray off topic;...not picking on you Bill, but if you mean 'Cellotape' is because it's made from cellulose from plants, same as some 'new products like 'Tencel/lyacell ' & bamboo socks.....

I’m afraid you’re both wrong, in a serious way.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0023/2721/6180/products/diyhk049913_47cbd914-49e1-4ee5-82c0-ccd775f7da1a_960x960.jpg)
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: duTch on 14.07. 2018 18:03

 
Quote
I’m afraid you’re both wrong, in a serious way.

 Ok- I'll stand corrected  *smile*....I guess I was thinking 'Cellophane' and it was an extension of that;

 From Wikipedia;
Quote
.....The name Sellotape was derived from cellophane, at that time a trademarked name, with the "C" changed to "S" so that the new name could be trademarked.[1].......

 I always just called it 'sticky tape' anyway
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 14.07. 2018 19:19
The springs from Feked were too heavy so I refitted the existing ones and had a helluva job getting the plate to lift squarely. I took the springs out again and closer examination revealed that two were 50mm and two were 48mm so I refitted them in opposite pairs and the plates lift pretty square.
It may have been that they were originally fitted as adjacent pairs causing uneven lift and contributing to my clutch drag problem.
I will put the chaincase on tomorrow and give it a try on the road.

Jim
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 17.07. 2018 14:28
Sellotape is n fact ( or was when I had anything to do with it ) made from Cellophane.
Cellophane is , or again was a registered trade name of Cello Products.
Thus you could call it Selotape without infringments on some one elses trade name.
I used to run the "cello store" at Super Transport where the rolls of Cellophane were stored prior to going either to be printed or get coated with glue to become sticky tape, but not Sello tape which was a trade name.
Another trade name down here for sticky tape  was Durex tape, something which got a lot of young Aussie girls into trouble when they went to work in London and asket to borrow some ones Durex.
We did not see Durex condoms down here till well into the 90's
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: duTch on 17.07. 2018 15:15

 Apologies to B-Bill too for doubting, but at least between us we wee half right... :D and thanks Trev for the backup....I'm glad I stuck my neck out and made a prick of myself, as I never would have learned anything....

 To be honest I can't recall ever having seen 'Sellotape' written, only spoken...that's a very big picture TT- one I won't forget in a hurry... *smile*...almost resembles a Triumph clutch...(attempt at back to topic)

 
Title: Re: 1959 Super Rocket with a Triumph clutch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 17.07. 2018 15:30
I can see that I should have made the subject of this topic "How do I fix my clutch with sticky tape"  *smile*

It is all back together and the clutch feels like it will be fine. I will take it up the pub tonight and get the clutch good and hot and make sure it does not drag.


Jim