The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Frame => Topic started by: Steverat on 10.08. 2018 07:36

Title: Colour scheme question
Post by: Steverat on 10.08. 2018 07:36
I am shortly to start restoration of an early 50s A10 (bolt on gearbox) for a friend. We are planning what finish to give it. Does anyone have info about the range of finishes offered in those years? I confess I find the Golden Flash gold colour unattractive.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RoyC on 10.08. 2018 07:54
I am shortly to start restoration of an early 50s A10 (bolt on gearbox) for a friend. We are planning what finish to give it. Does anyone have info about the range of finishes offered in those years? I confess I find the Golden Flash gold colour unattractive.

Enter your year & model here to see what colours were available.   -    http://www.rsbikepaint.com/en-gb/colours.php#makeid=20&modelid=476&prodyear=1957
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: JulianS on 10.08. 2018 09:13
Basically the alternative to beige was black.

Below from 1950 brochure.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: bsa-bill on 10.08. 2018 10:11
Quote
I confess I find the Golden Flash gold colour unattractive.

Yes me too, my Gold flash is Gold of a more modern vehicle, ( Susuki I think, would have to check with the shop that got me the paint), it's a mixed colour they got for me (very reasonable price).
It looks good, not to garish but more to today's taste then 50/60 s.
Purist will pull their hair out but I think it's quite allright to go for what BSA would be using if they were still producing bikes, it's your bike make of it whatever pleases you.

pic my bike plus two grandkids
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Greybeard on 10.08. 2018 10:15
I don't like the GF gold either. Black for me.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Simon59 on 10.08. 2018 10:23
I'm going for gold in my restoration (or more accurately beige). After all, it is called a Golden Flash... I think that the Gold was mostly for the US market whilst the UK preferred the more traditional black. They both look great! *smiley4*
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: cyclobutch on 10.08. 2018 11:40
When I finally got around to sorting mine out some years back I decided I wanted it the same (non std) colour that it was when I was riding it around in the 70s. So perhaps perversely I had that colour matched by my painter to get it just so. I'm not carrying much original tinware so it is only the tank in this colour - and kind of a maroon that they were likely using on other of their bikes at around the time. 

By the same token, even though I had the speedo completely refurbished I kept he original clock face - I wanted to be looking at the same one from back then.

All depends on how original you want to be and personal tastes of course.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: muskrat on 10.08. 2018 16:46
G'day Steve.
Black for me too. Tell us the exact year for full details.
While your at it tell us a bit about yourself and bike in the Pictures, Stories & Introductions https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?board=13.0
Cheers
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 11.08. 2018 12:26
Well I will go against the grain.
I really like the original golden beige.
What most get wrong is it was painted over a black base coat with a semi translucent beige ( not gold )
Wally Gibson did his like that and it is stunning, the black comes through giving the beige a really deep look and a slightly green tone.
Ken Thompson, an original 50 A10S owner ended up doing the same with his because all the attempts at modern colour matching cam out looking garish where as the original finish is pleasently understated.
latter they went to a full flat beige over a cream under coat and it lost all of the depth & looked like a filing cabinet.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: duTch on 11.08. 2018 22:10

 
Quote
............. it lost all of the depth & looked like a filing cabinet.

            *lol*
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Steverat on 31.08. 2018 20:49
G'day Steve.
Black for me too. Tell us the exact year for full details.
While your at it tell us a bit about yourself and bike in the Pictures, Stories & Introductions https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?board=13.0
Cheers

Gday Musky
Yes I think we are going for black. Its a 1951 bike, I'll post some more in the intros folder as you suggest, thanks
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: kiwipom on 31.08. 2018 23:06
I don't like the GF gold either. Black for me.
hi guys, Gold looks OK to me, i prefer Chrome/Black but its personal preference, it,s like wine: if you like it it,s a good one, cheers
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: orabanda on 01.09. 2018 01:27
I sourced the colour from Polly Palmer (a small sample), then had it matched locally.

Richard
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Steverat on 06.09. 2018 19:46
Thank you for all your replies and the smashing photos, really impressive. Josef (the owner) is considering black frame and forks with gold tinware as the most appealing to his eye. I can’t make up my mind now we have to make the decision. From talking to my painters I do know that the gold will be a lot more expensive -and more risky too of course. Even if it is done well, I think it will be more difficult to keep looking nice. Powder coat is out of the question because of the difficulty of matching with the spray painted parts, so everything gets dearer when going for the “full gold” option. Bike is arriving imminently and I shall be asked for my preference since the paint & chrome has long lead time and the bits need to start that right away. Then I can concentrate on fettling the drive train and have it ready when the chassis comes back. It’s going to take me several months I think.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Greybeard on 06.09. 2018 19:55
I've read that the Paint BSA used was not really 'gold', as in a metallic paint. I believe the colour was actually more like beige.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RDfella on 06.09. 2018 21:02
Indeed, the description of 'gold' is probably misleading. I seem to recall the original designation was polychromatic beige. Whatever, I find the colour unappealing when applied to the whole bike, which is why when I restored my '58 GF (originally black) I opted for black frame, oil tank and toolbox, but 'gold' for the tank and guards. I feel it's just right, but then again that's only my opinion.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Norbert 60 on 13.08. 2019 07:14
I'd like to re-open this thread as I do have a question for the colour sceme as well.

Restauration of my A10 '59 just started and I do consider to have it sprayed "gold".
In the catalogue pics  it looks as all painted parts are "gold", similar to the bike of orabanda,- which seems to be mint!
Some other pics shows black frame, nacelle, forks and oil tank - toolbox, only tank and mudgards are gold.

Can someone tell me what would be the correct sceme?

btw: at this moment I do prefere black frame and nacelle with gold tinware

Cheers

Norbert
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Brian on 13.08. 2019 07:59
Its impossible to reproduce the original "gold" colour as it varied.

Its your bike and unless you are aiming for 100% originality tell the purists to f*** off and paint it how you want.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Norbert 60 on 13.08. 2019 08:18
Hi Brian,

many thanks fro quick response *clap* , but it does not answer my question of how is the original colour sceme.
I from this thread that actual gold colour had quite some variation and it's clear that I will paint it as I like, nevertheless I am interested in the original sceme.

Cheers

Norbert
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Brian on 13.08. 2019 08:31
Hello Norbert,
                      I bought my first A10 48 years ago. Since then I have seen dozens of A10's that have been painted in the "original" colour, all of them the paint was copied from inside the toolbox or under the seat etc etc so the owners could be certain that their bike was the correct colour. But out of all those bikes I have never seen two the same. I dont know if BSA used different brands of paint or if it was mixed by different people on different shifts or whatever but the "original" colour varied. To try and answer your question about what parts were painted what colour I would look at Orabandas bikes. I hate to admit a sandgroper knows what he's doing but his bikes are of the very highest standard so I am sure he has it right.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Swarfcut on 13.08. 2019 09:02
Norbert, published data for your model year suggests black frame, forks, chainguard and hubs. Colour is restricted to tanks, toolbox, mudguards and stays, air filter box where fitted.

 Colour is a whole subject in itself, with numerous threads on the Forum. In the end choose a modern colour to your estimate of original by comparison with other bikes or an original sample as suggested by Brian.

Swarfy.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Norbert 60 on 13.08. 2019 09:16
Hi Brian,

many thanks for quick answer. *thanks*

At the first start of my A 10 restauration, some decades ago, I wanted to convert it into a cafe racer, so I bought all the bits and pieces to tune the engine.
But now at the 2nd attempt, older and (hopefully) wiser I wanto to go for most original condition.
The engine will be tuned slightly with focus on refinement and reliability.
As almost all A10 I do see are black, I want to go different. The gold appeals to me, but not in the volume of the original (as Orabandas bike).
For me that's over the top.

I will sit down in the Garage with a glas of red and have a deep think,...!  *conf2*

Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Norbert 60 on 13.08. 2019 09:19
Hello Swarfy,

many thanks

this sceme is more towards my taste!  *beer*

Many thanks

GREAT FORUM !!!!

Norbert, published data for your model year suggests black frame, forks, chainguard and hubs. Colour is restricted to tanks, toolbox, mudguards and stays, air filter box where fitted.

 Colour is a whole subject in itself, with numerous threads on the Forum. In the end choose a modern colour to your estimate of original by comparison with other bikes or an original sample as suggested by Brian.

Swarfy.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 13.08. 2019 09:50
According to the cover of the German cattledog it looked like this

Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RoyC on 13.08. 2019 09:51
I'd like to re-open this thread as I do have a question for the colour sceme as well.

Restauration of my A10 '59 just started and I do consider to have it sprayed "gold".
In the catalogue pics  it looks as all painted parts are "gold", similar to the bike of orabanda,- which seems to be mint!
Some other pics shows black frame, nacelle, forks and oil tank - toolbox, only tank and mudgards are gold.

Can someone tell me what would be the correct sceme?

btw: at this moment I do prefere black frame and nacelle with gold tinware

Cheers

Norbert


Enter your details here  -  http://www.rsbikepaint.com/en-gb/colours.php#makeid=24&modelid=696&prodyear=1959
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 13.08. 2019 09:55
However according to the inside information it looked like this
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Norbert 60 on 13.08. 2019 10:06
Hi Guys,

So many information within an hour!

MANY THANKS to all of you!! *thanks* *yeah*
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 13.08. 2019 10:08
What all the armchair experts tend to forget there were many different versions of bikes each year for different markets.
So we could have had the following
1) Home market version
2) General Export version
3) Home & General Export version
4) North American version ( Included Canada)
5) Canadian Version
6) USA East Coast Version
7) USA West Coast version
8) Asia Pacific Version ( Basically Aust , NZ, Malasia
9) European General Export version ( has Kph speedo & largest tank )
10) USA general version ( forgot that one )

There is no rhyme nor reason for this apart from perhaps distributors demmanding slight differences .
Even worse oft the only offical proof of a version is a dealers service sheet that of course was only sent to the affected dealers. This was particularly prevelant with competition models and Gold Stars in particular.
Even worse they could vary during a single season so for instance we could get the Asia Pacific version in the first shipment, General Export in the second shipment because the Pacific version got dropped and if it was a a good season down here might end up with Home & General Export version if there was a third shipment.

You will note that the cover bike has a black frame and black seat while the inside bike has a gold frame with a tan & cream seat
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RDfella on 13.08. 2019 10:15
Agree with Norbert - too much gold is the medallion-man. Gold frames are just too much, it just doesn't look right. I prefer the gold (beige) to be the bling, not the whole, so I opted for all black except fuel tank and mudguards. Think it looks more 'distinguished'. To each his own I guess.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 13.08. 2019 10:46
There is a clot on ebay Germany who is selling good quality reproductions of most BSA catalogues ( prosperts to some ).
His printing was very good but the descriptions were a bit suspect.
He was selling a lot of different year ( supposedly ) catalogues so you might be able to pick up a 57,58 & 59 then pick what you like the best.
Photocopy it and keep the copy with you so when you get told it was wrong, produce the catalogue page , usually shuts them up.
If they persist then you tell them in a very loud voice that they are remembering illegally smuggles in British versions and suggest some criminal past.

BSA did a lot of funny things so for instance if there was a shortage of golden beige frames, they were not above making an entire order with black frames and calling it a different variation.
ou also should be aware that the "golden Beige" idea was a post production brain fart of the marketing department to capitalize on being awarded gold medals.
SO the original production run were black over painted with a single coat of gold which gave them a greenish tinge from the black showing through.
The they went to 2 coats of gold , still over black so it was more yellowish and less deep looking but of course much less likely to scratch & show black through the gold.
After that they used a green undercoat which made the top colour look different again and the latter ones were over a creamish undercoat which made the last of them look a little pastel gold. 
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: berger on 13.08. 2019 11:54
o well I am colour blind--- can't wait to try out those new specs that have come on the market, someone pointed out to me my seat , tank and yokes were different colours - I can just about see that now *countdown*
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: AdrianJ on 13.08. 2019 20:27
Even the black isn't straightforward. I got in touch with a specialist paint supplier, who told me that the correct colour for a 53 A10 was 94 parts black and 6 parts violet. He also thought that rather than have this mixed up at over £10 a can I should go for plain gloss black at approx £16 for 6 cans. As I am trying to produce a good runner not concourse, I've gone for plain black. It looks good to my untrained eye on toolbox, oil tank, tank and fork shrouds - didn't need to do the mudguards I thought.
Adrian
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 14.08. 2019 09:19
o well I am colour blind--- can't wait to try out those new specs that have come on the market, someone pointed out to me my seat , tank and yokes were different colours - I can just about see that now *countdown*

Which must mean your bike is either original or an authentic perfect restoration and not oan over restoration to a degree higher than was done at the factory
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Swarfcut on 14.08. 2019 09:39
In the 1970's I bought an ex demo Ford Capri. The driver's side rear quarter had been refinished, so was a slightly different colour match. Then the driver's door got bumped, and it went to Guest Motors in West Bromwich, the Ford Main Dealers. Back it came with the door in another slightly different shade. So the one side had three different variants of the same colour. They were reluctant to spray the whole side so all three panels were the same, so I just lived with it. Shows how difficult it was in those days to get a consistent match. It was an early unpopular metallic green, so the car had been cheap to start with, and as in those days it was primer and colour, no lacquer coats, the finish started to fail after a couple of years and I sold it on. Worth a bit more now, if it had survived.

Just wondered if bergs bike is different colours...red tank, blue toolbox, green oiltank, yellow guards, or just different shades of the same colour......he did say he was colour blind, but that may be just the drink!

Swarfy.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RogerSB on 14.08. 2019 10:16
According to BSA Twin Restoration book by Roy Bacon:-

A10: 1950 – 51
All parts painted black . . . OR polychromatic silver beige.
Petrol tank chrome plated with black panel lined gold . . . OR beige panel lined red.
Wheel rims chrome plated with black centres lined gold . . . OR beige centres lined red.
   
A10: 1951-52
As 1950 except petrol tank all beige with panel outlined and painted brake plates.

(Pic. from BSA Pre-Unit Twins book by Mick Walker)
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: duTch on 14.08. 2019 10:33

 
Quote
o well I am colour blind--- can't wait to try out those new specs that have come on the market, someone pointed out to me my seat , tank and yokes were different colours - I can just about see that now *countdown*

 Don't touch the specs/red button/Brownacid...ignorance is bliss *beer* *beer*
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RogerSB on 14.08. 2019 10:55
Some more reference pics of a 1950 GF.

A lot of lining for someone to do Steverat  *eek*.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Greybeard on 14.08. 2019 12:07
Deffo beige, not metallic at all.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: berger on 14.08. 2019 12:24
mmmm on looking at these I think someone else is colour blind ,I think the tank and seat are the same and the yokes are a bit orange, maybe my blindness of colour is getting better or I just forget about it and go and get blindo in the pub *beer* *beer* - red tank and seat , orangey yokes . I hope nobody brings beige [ WHAT?!] into it *pull hair out* I had arguments for years about red and beige-- to me its RED . edit I really need the pub , not functioning at all well---- beige I don't even recognise it as a colour but I should have said burgundy!!!! as red .
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: berger on 14.08. 2019 12:29
orange ??????
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: duTch on 14.08. 2019 12:30
 
Quote
......,I think the tank and seat are the same and the yokes are a bit orange,.....

 
I think I never saw a green Beeza engine before *conf2*
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RoyC on 14.08. 2019 14:59
Deep pink.  *eek*
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Simon59 on 14.08. 2019 17:06
I'm very happy with the colour of my Golden Flash restoration...
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 15.08. 2019 09:57
Some more reference pics of a 1950 GF.

A lot of lining for someone to do Steverat  *eek*.

But is it an ORIGINAL 1950 golden flash or a 1950 Golden Flash that has been repainted 25 times ?
Having seen an original one before it got repainted ( which was  crime ) the finish was deep with a greenish tinge which made it look metallic because the black undercoat shows through the top coat .
I have also seen a 54 flash ( mine ) which was a one owner bike before I got it.
Again the tank & forks were beige over black & looked stunning ( between the stone chips & rust ) the oil tank & guards had a cream undercoat and looks a totally different colour.
From memory professional painter call it base coat bleed  through.
I am fairly sure the West Coast USA bikes all had black frames from the get go having met an original owner who swears his bike had a black frame, not sure about the East Coast.
And of course I did post the 58 catalogues.
We might also take a moment to reflect upon the fact that we are talking about a 1958 bike, not a 1950 bike .
Then there are sources.
What BSA published is a primary source and should be correct ( some times )
What newspapers & magazines OF THE PERIOD published would be considered secondary unless they were describing the bike they were given to test ride, which might or might not be an accurate example of what the factory actually made.
After that everything is tertiary and highly suspect unless it is foot noted with a refference back to the original material.
Lots of books are very very much wrong & Bacon is the perfect example .
I have some of the material that he reprinted and it is not what he said it was and of course iis limited to UK models and UK models alone because it was derrived form UK press releases about UK HOME MARKET bikes and the bike in question is GERMAN which could very well be in GENERAL EXPORT TRIM , not UK 1950 trim.

And of course a digital camera does not record TRUE COLOURS and on top of that computer screens all render colour differently so trying to determine the actual colour of anything off a computer image is a fools errand.
There is a reason why printers have $ 5000 computer screens and calibrate them almost daily if not more often.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Steverat on 15.08. 2019 10:25
Here is a final picture  of Josef's bike just before it left for Germany in March. 
I hope you like it, apologies for not showing before.
Many thanks for your help.
Steve
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RogerSB on 15.08. 2019 10:50

But is it an ORIGINAL 1950 golden flash or a 1950 Golden Flash that has been repainted 25 times ?

We might also take a moment to reflect upon the fact that we are talking about a 1958 bike, not a 1950 bike .

And of course a digital camera does not record TRUE COLOURS and on top of that computer screens all render colour differently so trying to determine the actual colour of anything off a computer image is a fools errand.

There is a reason why printers have $ 5000 computer screens and calibrate them almost daily if not more often.

Sorry folks, I don't know the history of the bike in the photos, so I don't have the answer to the first query. Someone went to an extraordinary effort to paint the wheel rims though. Not a job I'd like to take on.

Steverat's reply to Musky in Reply 10 says it's a 1951 bike.

I do agree with BSA_54A10 about the various colours obtained with different quality cameras, computers and monitors, something most are aware of . . . but I cannot agree that printers calibrate their equipment daily if not more often. I worked in the printing trade for 40 years as the industry progressed from letterpress to offset lithography, then to paste-up on drawing boards and eventually computers. First as a qualified letterpress compositor and finally as a graphic artist working mainly on computers. In my 40 years experience working in many different printing and advertising jobs maintenance was only carried out when absolutely necessary - as it stopped work.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RDfella on 15.08. 2019 11:05
Swarfy – remember those metallic cellulose days. I could paint a front wing, hand the paint gun to another person who’d paint the door and he’d pass it to someone who’d paint the rear wing. And you’d have three different shades of the same colour, because the shade depends on where the metal ends up in the paint. Spray distance and thickness applied make a huge difference. I recall in around ’70 we had a silver Capri in with front wing damage. Ended up spraying the whole car. These days, painters don’t know they’re born. You paint the front wing and then mist across the next panel so that by the end you’re at original finish. Then apply lacquer. Can’t do that with cellulose.
With the A series I think half the trouble is that people are hung up on the word ‘golden’ when in fact the colour is near halfway between gold and silver.
I had an oil tank that had been in my store for decades and was, with 99% certainty, original paint. I cleaned the back and matched as close to that as I could. Is it accurate? Who knows, but I’m happy with it and that’s the main thing. In my view some go too far in their quest for originality, to the extent it’s actually better finished than when it left the factory. That’s no longer original.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: RogerSB on 15.08. 2019 11:07
Here is a final picture  of Josef's bike just before it left for Germany in March. 
Steve

Looks perfection Steve, but I hope it's the correct colour black  ;) and I, for one, don't blame you for not tackling the wheel rims  *eek*.
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: muskrat on 15.08. 2019 11:50
Well done Steve  *yeah* he should be proud.
Cheers
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Greybeard on 15.08. 2019 16:04
Here is a final picture  of Josef's bike just before it left for Germany in March.
Is the bike behaving itself now?
Title: Re: Colour scheme question
Post by: Steverat on 17.08. 2019 11:20
Here is a final picture  of Josef's bike just before it left for Germany in March.
Is the bike behaving itself now?

No still running rough, I sent him a spare K2F to try , just waiting for him to do that now. Bike has been shown in static displays however!