The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: bikerbob on 09.10. 2018 09:30
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How important is this hole. I have a 1956 swinging arm A7 and on a recent strip down to replace timing side bush and other work I did not at the time think that about the hole in the Con Rod I mistakenly thought that it was only used on the A65 of which I have a 1962 model. Now I do remember looking at the con rods and the big end shells and am sure that there was no hole in the left hand rod and also the big end shells definately did not have a hole in the top ones to allow the oil go through tey looked quite new as that would have made me think again. This bike has been overhauled by a previous owner and I have found some things that were not done very well at the time. I have checked with some dealers on ebay and some of them are providing big end shells without the oil hole in them. So how importent is it, I would if advised strip the engine down again over the winter and correct this I have found an article that shows how to do this the hole is 3/64" diameter at a 30 degree angle this article was showing how to do this on an A65 which said that some A65 engines were experiencing oil starvation on the left hand cylinder so I assume the A7&A10 would be the same.
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New forged MAP rods do not have an oil hole at all.
I think you could get by with 1,2 or even zero oil holes. And I am willing to bet the ones that are there dont care if they are pointed left, right, or down.
I think that hole made some engineer feel better, but it kind of seems like a waste of sharp drill bits. *dunno*
Lee
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There's already a whole(hole *bash*) bunch of debates about this....but for what it's worth if I recall I bought some big end shells waaaay back that were marked left/right (hole & no hole)
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Yeah - we've done this one for sure.
And you should worry - on the S7 'Beam I bought the PO had swapped the caps over on the rods. Shells were toast inside 100 miles. But then the oil pump body was cracked so that probly didn't help.
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Some say the oil hole is to help lubricate the LH cylinder. I can't see that, as if that were the case the rod should squirt oil at the thrust (rear) side of the cylinder, and to do that the the oil hole should be on the rod's shoulder (as with any other conrod with a squirt hole). And why would the LH cylinder need more lubrication that the RH one? I thought the purpose of the hole was to enhance oil flow through the crankshaft, which would make sense from an engineering point of view.
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I reckon that at some time an engine or two failed on the left cylinder so adding that hole was a knee-jerk reaction. The left side, being further away from the oil supply may have been in need of slightly more jollop squirting about, especially on a worn engine.
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Whether you believe the hole is there to lubricate the cylinder wall (which I do not) or to promote oil flow to the left side (which I do), if the hole is there it WILL promote oil flow regardless of who thinks that's needed.
Richard L.
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I have pondered this over the years. If you consider the bearing shells need to be supported to the maximum degree on the thrust side of the rod this would mean the locating tabs would be towards the front of the engine. Positioning the rod like this means the hole points towards the flywheel. Is the hole necessary? Well if there is a hole it is there because of some engineering consideration in the past. Is it effective? Who knows? In all honesty a 3/64" hole flashing past a 1/4" hole for a nanosecond ain't gonna pass much oil. To lubricate the bores, overflow from the timing bush onto the crank cheek may do the timing side, but most oil will come as overflow from the cam trough, onto the flywheel and up the bores. Perhaps this is why we have the hole as a back up on cold start up, the timing side overflow lubricating the right hand cylinder.
Of far more importance is the area where to oil exits the crank on the big end journals. When new the oil hole in the crank was at the bottom of an oval shaped cup, machined into the journal. While this reduces the total bearing surface by a small amount, it has the effect of allowing a wider film of oil to be deposited on the shell surface. As the cup is in effect conical, those who did Calculus will be familiar with the relationship of surface area to depth, typically demonstrated by an old style Martini or Babycham glass. There is a huge reduction of surface area for a small reduction in depth. So, as the crank is reground, each grind removes more of the available surface area for oil
to be spread across the shell. Also when you get your crank back it is treated with care, we avoid touching those journals. But in fact the grinding process has left the oil hole with a razor sharp edge, ready to gouge a neat groove in the shell. so if you are having a crank done, reinstate the cup with a Dremel Grinder first, get the crank ground and then make sure the edge of the oilhole has a nice smooth lead onto the journal surface. I consider this to be a better way of improving oil flow.
The Glyco Bearing Website has a wealth of information about crank grinding, journal polishing and bearing selection. After reading it you will wonder whether your grinder really knows what he is doing. Swarfy.
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I have pondered this over the years. If you consider the bearing shells need to be supported to the maximum degree on the thrust side of the rod this would mean the locating tabs would be towards the front of the engine. Positioning the rod like this means the hole points towards the flywheel. Is the hole necessary? Well if there is a hole it is there because of some engineering consideration in the past. Is it effective? Who knows? In all honesty a 3/64" hole flashing past a 1/4" hole for a nanosecond ain't gonna pass much oil. To lubricate the bores, overflow from the timing bush onto the crank cheek may do the timing side, but most oil will come as overflow from the cam trough, onto the flywheel and up the bores. Perhaps this is why we have the hole as a back up on cold start up, the timing side overflow lubricating the right hand cylinder.
Of far more importance is the area where to oil exits the crank on the big end journals. When new the oil hole in the crank was at the bottom of an oval shaped cup, machined into the journal. While this reduces the total bearing surface by a small amount, it has the effect of allowing a wider film of oil to be deposited on the shell surface. As the cup is in effect conical, those who did Calculus will be familiar with the relationship of surface area to depth, typically demonstrated by an old style Martini or Babycham glass. There is a huge reduction of surface area for a small reduction in depth. So, as the crank is reground, each grind removes more of the available surface area for oil
to be spread across the shell. Also when you get your crank back it is treated with care, we avoid touching those journals. But in fact the grinding process has left the oil hole with a razor sharp edge, ready to gouge a neat groove in the shell. so if you are having a crank done, reinstate the cup with a Dremel Grinder first, get the crank ground and then make sure the edge of the oilhole has a nice smooth lead onto the journal surface. I consider this to be a better way of improving oil flow.
The Glyco Bearing Website has a wealth of information about crank grinding, journal polishing and bearing selection. After reading it you will wonder whether your grinder really knows what he is doing. Swarfy.
Wow! Lots to ponder there. I can see that you are going to be a leading engineering expert on this forum.
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Thanks GB. If there is debate as to whether the hole lubricates the bore, or increases the oil flow do you reckon anyone has the courage to drill a SECOND HOLE on the other side of the rod? That way you get more oil flow (if the hole does that), more oil to the bore and a nice oil shower to the roller bearing. Plus no oil pressure and a weaker rod. Stand back I reckon its about to hit the fan!
Swarfy.
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But we aren't going to drill that second one are we? So, for us weaker brethren - hole pointing outwards? (Drags) - hole pointing inwards? (Jeff Clew/Haynes)
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The numbers stamped on the rod and cap go to the rear of the engine which makes the hole on the inward side.
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Thanks for the replies I think I will leave it for now as I have done about 2000miles on it without any oil starvation problems and I do not know how many miles the previous owner did. The previous owner did have problem with a timing side bush turning in the steel housing because it was not pinned he gave the job of fixing it to mechanic who stripped the engine and renewed the bush and did some other work renewing the big ends and reprofiling the cam shaft he did not in my opinion do a very good job as he left it with about 14 thou end play and I have since found out the bike would have been fitted with a 334 camshft but it now has a 356 camshaft no problem with that other than the valve clearances are different. The timing side bush that he fitted has only lasted about 2000miles so when I stripped the engine down I have replaced it with a solid bush and when I replaced the ball spring in the crankcase the hole was partially blocked with sludge which could have accounted for the short life of the buush. In regard to comments about the purpose of the oil hole in the conrod I also own 1963 A65 which does have that hole, but when BSA first introduced the A50 and the A65 the very early ones did not have the oil hole and after certain engine numbers the hole was introduced the reason given possible oil starvation on the left hand cylinder and a service note was sent out to dealers telling them when any of the early engines needed engine strip down then they were instructed to carry out the modification to the left hand con rod. I find that strange as it could have been years before an engine needed a strip down.
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I have got some thunder rods for the norbsa project, lets open the can of worms *evil* *fight* . the engine will have new timing side bush and srm oil pump and relief valve so do I drill the drive side rod or leave it as is. anyone who says its my choice will not be going to the Christmas party *contract* *beer*. I need to hear no's and yesses but not necessarily in that order. opinions of why not and yes do will give me lots of PUB pondering time *yeah*
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hi guys, Berger i got billet rods from SRM who told me that the hole was not necessary and that the intention was to promote oil flow through the crank, cheers
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we have a starter, cheers kiwipom *beer*
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I have pictures somewhere of me fixturing my soon-to-be-left Thunder rod for drilling.
Richard L.
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I'll be trying to construct an opinion whilst i'm in the pub! Come on Bergs, fess up, which way are you leaning. Smart money says you'll leave it well alone,nail it on and get to the pub.
Am looking forward to the Christmas do, fancy dress as usual?
*beer* *computer* *countdown* ::hh::
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I am not leaning at all at the moment jim, but will be on Friday *countdown* ;). as the new number 2 said in the prisoner - we want information!!! all I want is a view on this across some of the forum members to see what they have done or would do with these modern rods, I am sure there will be some edumacating answers to ponder on over a gallon of black&tan. like why if its not needed do they still go to the trouble of putting holes in the shells *dunno2* *conf2*
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I have pictures somewhere of me fixturing my soon-to-be-left Thunder rod for drilling.
Richard L.
I guess the above says my answer is "yes" to drilling, but, before I wrote that, I wrote the following, which, somehow, didn't post.
You have to promise to consider the source but (again) my answer is "yes". Kiwipom's statement from SRM seems contradictory. Promoting oil flow has to be seen as a good thing and, therefore, the hole leans more toward the "necessary" than "unnecessary." No one has ever said the hole would hurt anything, that I recall. Personally, I believe in the oil flow theory. At one time, I did conjure up an unsupported idea that bubbles in the oil could stack up as foam on the left end of the sludge trap, creating a cushin against which oil did not flow easily. I have no proof of this, nor anyone with a real BSA brain agreeing.
Richard L.
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The book "BSA Twin Motor Cycles" from the 1950s by BSA Technical manager D W Munro gives the account as to why the drilled rod was introduced. The drilling was used until the end of the pre unit A series.
The first A65s were made without the drilling but it was reintroduced in early 1965.
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G'day fellas.
Without the benefit of the internet back in 81 I rebuilt my plunger with the hole pointing outwards. My thinking it would lube the roller bearing. Did countless miles like that. A freshen up about 10 years ago it was put in the "right" way. Again lots of trouble free riding. In the 90's (still without the web) I raced my 57 A7SS with std 40 year old rods. Broke lots of things but never a rod. In about 05 she grew up into the A10 Cafe, still with std rods. A few years ago she dropped a valve and was rebuilt with R&R rods, no hole. Only done about 10K miles but all sounds good.
My only reservation with the hole is oil pressure not flow. To my way of thinking (probably only me and I'm no engineer) a plain bearing needs pressure as well as flow, a roller/ball bearing needs flow. With that hole we are loosing pressure. Flow would be important if we are loosing pressure due to worn out timing side bush, too much end float or worn big ends and that hole.
Cheers
Combantrin at the ready https://tinyurl.com/y9sd6qpg
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richardL and julianS very interesting thankyou!! muskrat you are crazier than dutch- if that is possible *doubt* , i wasn't expecting that when I opened the link *lol*
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Hi All,
I will have to make the decision to drill or not to sometime soon too *conf2* *conf2*
Suppose the engine has been standing for some time, does the oil within the crank sludge tube /chamber drain away?
(I would think it does to some degree depending on were the crank comes to rest)
When the engine is started up again, oil is pumped into the the crank chamber to expel the air through the big end bearings
Would the drilling in the rod assist bleeding the air from the crank better than not having a drilling there*????* *????* *????* *????*
John
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muskrat you are crazier than dutch- if that is possible *doubt* , i wasn't expecting that when I opened the link *lol*..
*eek* *fight* I think I represent that..... *beer*
.......Suppose the engine has been standing for some time, does the oil within the crank sludge tube /chamber drain away?
(I would think it does to some degree depending on were the crank comes to rest)........
I've suggested before that as the oil feed holes are in the *sides* of the Big-end journals (ie; @ 90˚ to T/B-DC), if the throw is below horizontal, then at rest it should in theory hold a certain amount of oil....until it rolls up past horizontal and at rest, any oil in the crank would in theaory start to seep out the big-end feed holes, or back down to the T/S main bush, where it will seep out over time ....so best to leave at BDC if parked up for extended periods.....on the other hand.... *conf2*..... *beer*
So, with regard to the Conrod hole, the way I see it, is the hole only coincides with the above mentioned journal-feed holes momentarily *at 90˚* before/after TDC ie- when the crank throw is horizontal either way, so a very short time to catch an extra shot of lube......so there's not a constant extra steam anyway...can't see any problem having the 'ole, and mine's still running fine after most days in 6 years
Fairly sure my Thunder Rods have the 'ole, and facing the flywheel (but not planning a search in the foreseeable future)- but may have a photo on an old camera....
*beer*
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hang on call me thick but the oil pump is supplying the journal shells through the big end holes all the time the engines running , so the oil can come out of the con rod hole all the time weather it's in line with the ole or not *whistle*
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G'day berger.
That's my thoughts as well.
I can see the thinking the 'ole would promote flow as any fluid will find the easiest escape route and there are a few as I said earlier. All this adds to the loss of pressure.
Our motors would nearly always come to rest with the pistons rising, the compression stops them. The journals would be at about 45 degrees btdc or thereabouts. I would imagine over time all/most of the oil would drain away either through the big ends or main bush. *conf2*
Cheers
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Musko got in while I'm struggling with the phone.... but here goes again
'Yes' to the above, ( you're thick .....*smile*- nah just joking)
' Yes' to the rest., I think I said the hole provides just an *extra* squirt at those times, and not a constant stream ( from the rod hole)....
....when the crank throw is horizontal either way, so a very short time to catch an extra shot of lube......so there's not a constant extra steam anyway.....
*beer* *beer*
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I reckon that at some time an engine or two failed on the left cylinder so adding that hole was a knee-jerk reaction. The left side, being further away from the oil supply may have been in need of slightly more jollop squirting about, especially on a worn engine.
Yep, this is the reason for the hole. In Bert Hopwood's book 'Whatever Happened T T B MC I' He tells of the first A10s grabbing the left piston. No one could explain the reason and one of the Development Engineers said " If we had a window in the engine, we could see why." So they cut a hole in the cases and put in a perspex window to find very little oil in the area. So the fix was a small hole in the LHS Con Rod.
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Hi All,
Another thought *ex*
Engine oil quality has improved massively since the 1950's,
So maybe the reason that bikes are running with rods without the oil hole happily for many thousands of miles
is due to better oil quality *????* *????*
John
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hi guys, yes john we now have additives that allow an engine to run without oil for a very long time without damage, cheers
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hi guys I went to the pub and pondered *countdown* , so thankyou for all your input and to those who dug out some script --- merry Christmas. the rod will be getting the HOLE *thanks*
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G'day fellas.
I'm rebuilding my 83 CB1100F at the moment. All four rods have a hole pointing rearwards. Each big end journal is fed by the adjacent main journal. So even Mr Honda thought it was a good idea.
Cheers
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hi guys, Musky that is surprising maybe Honda's have much better oil pumps, cheers
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G'day kiwipom.
Yes very good. Holds 80psi all day at my speeds *eek*
Cheers
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I have pondered this over the years. If you consider the bearing shells need to be supported to the maximum degree on the thrust side of the rod this would mean the locating tabs would be towards the front of the engine. Positioning the rod like this means the hole points towards the flywheel. Is the hole necessary? Well if there is a hole it is there because of some engineering consideration in the past. Is it effective? Who knows? In all honesty a 3/64" hole flashing past a 1/4" hole for a nanosecond ain't gonna pass much oil. To lubricate the bores, overflow from the timing bush onto the crank cheek may do the timing side, but most oil will come as overflow from the cam trough, onto the flywheel and up the bores. Perhaps this is why we have the hole as a back up on cold start up, the timing side overflow lubricating the right hand cylinder.
Of far more importance is the area where to oil exits the crank on the big end journals. When new the oil hole in the crank was at the bottom of an oval shaped cup, machined into the journal. While this reduces the total bearing surface by a small amount, it has the effect of allowing a wider film of oil to be deposited on the shell surface. As the cup is in effect conical, those who did Calculus will be familiar with the relationship of surface area to depth, typically demonstrated by an old style Martini or Babycham glass. There is a huge reduction of surface area for a small reduction in depth. So, as the crank is reground, each grind removes more of the available surface area for oil
to be spread across the shell. Also when you get your crank back it is treated with care, we avoid touching those journals. But in fact the grinding process has left the oil hole with a razor sharp edge, ready to gouge a neat groove in the shell. so if you are having a crank done, reinstate the cup with a Dremel Grinder first, get the crank ground and then make sure the edge of the oilhole has a nice smooth lead onto the journal surface. I consider this to be a better way of improving oil flow.
The Glyco Bearing Website has a wealth of information about crank grinding, journal polishing and bearing selection. After reading it you will wonder whether your grinder really knows what he is doing. Swarfy.
I cant comment on the hole but the advice one dealing with the cleanup after regrinding is obvious and important , its basic standard practice but not always done, being in engineering most of my working life, ive seen the results.