The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: PDMiller on 19.10. 2018 10:37

Title: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 19.10. 2018 10:37
After reading about sludge traps on his forum I decided that it would be a good idea to check mine on the new project. Following Swarfy's excellent instructions I got the plugs out. One was straight forward but the other one was a bit of a battle. The whole oilway inside was completely choked . luckily the engine has never run since being built up many years ago, if it had I think it would've been toast. *eek*. The other thing I noticed was that the bores are +.060 and the pistons are +.040. Luckily the bores are in good nick so new pistons are on order.
Oh well, my quick tidy up has turned into a Winter re-build.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Greybeard on 19.10. 2018 11:02
I am so glad you checked for sludge!
When I started restoring my machine I was not aware of sludge traps. I wasn't on this forum then, (I know!). Luckily I read someone's online account of keeping their A10 on the road for many years. They emphasised how important it was to clean out the crankshaft oilways periodically. When I opened mine up it was also very full.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: RichardL on 19.10. 2018 13:21
My story's kind'a like GB's, but ended up spinning a rod bearing. I think I am blaming   the Hayne's manual for not addressing the sludge trap in a meaningful way.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 19.10. 2018 14:36
 P D.....Thanks for that accolade. Nice to know it did some good.   Picture looks like a later "Big Journal" Crank    But you cannot relax. The next trial is to come.   What you think is a choked oilway is in fact a removable tube. Removable?  Well in a manner of speaking. One sludge trap plug has a small central pip to seal the end of the tube. The tube bells out at the other end, where the oil goes in. The tube is located by the radial flywheel securing bolt.  Once this is removed, the tube will come out, revealing even more sludge.  Like the plugs, some are easy, some have to be carefully drifted out,  or cut down the middle with a small hacksaw blade and collapsed inwards.

   Many folks have neglected to remove the tube for cleaning, leaving that sludge there to do its worst.  Take your time and do it properly.  Lots of information about re assembly on this forum. Some people change the flywheel bolts as here failure can also make it go bang.

    The earlier small journal crank is much simpler, just remove the plugs and clean everything.

    Note which way the Conrods are fitted.   Cap and rod numbers should match on each rod.  Matched rods are usually from the same batch, so the numbers stamped on them will be in the same style and close, rarely consecutive. Forging numbers also will be in the same font if they are matched original rods. For a big journal rod, the forging number is 67-1160.

  Opinion is that the rods are fitted with the numbers to the gearbox side, shell bearing locating tabs to the front of the engine.

 The left hand, drive side rod has a small hole from the bearing location to the bottom of the side of the rod. This should point towards the flywheel.

  See postings headed "Conrod Oil hole" for a bit more about this true purpose of this hole.

  Apologies if you know all of this this already, but if the previous owner couldn't match bores to pistons, even the basic assembly may be incorrect.
 
 Good to know you have made a start.

  Keep Spannering

  Swarfy.

   
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: muskrat on 20.10. 2018 06:35
G'day Swarfy.
For that excellent tutorial I give you a Karma point.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Cheers
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 20.10. 2018 08:37
Thanks for that Swarfy.
The tube you mention was indeed caked solid with sludge.  All clean now and waiting for bits to arrive.
The engine numbers start with GA10R so I think that indicates that it's from a Road Rocket? Not sure what the differences are. This bike is a real bitsa so I'm looking forward to many cold and oily hours in the man cave. ;)
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 20.10. 2018 09:29
G'Day Musky. Thanks for your endorsement. Always difficult to know how much folks know about these motors. I am happy to pass on my experience.

 Hi Pete... Worth you following a current thread about main bearing set up. Your engine should have a 356 cam, Big Valve Alloy Head, High compression pistons. More vibration, and envy from lesser mortals comes as standard.   Together with a nagging worry when you leave it unattended.

  Spanner On

   Swarfy
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: chaterlea25 on 20.10. 2018 18:46
Hi All,
PD,
Could you check the engine number again?
C A 10 changed to D A 10 for 1960
"G" was not used by BSA on the A 10 engines

John
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 21.10. 2018 15:39
Yes you're right John it's a C not a G. I wouldn't have been surprised if it had been an obscure number as nothing about this engine would shock me now.

After much internal debate and soul searching I convinced myself that I had probably put the sludge trap tube in the wrong way round and possibly screwed the plugs in too far. The crankshaft is still on the bench so the plugs had to come out again so that I could sleep at night. The plugs were just as stubborn second time round, probably due to loctite and centre punch dabs. I made up the little screwdriver tool in the picture and with a big G clamp to keep the pressure on they gave up without too much of a fight.
I made the tool out of a piece of allen key but a bolt head would probably do just as well and be much easier to cut with a hacksaw. Now to find a home for it where I can find it in 50 years or so when it needs doing again. *conf*
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: berger on 21.10. 2018 16:42
I have not been to the pub, blinking ek how many hack saw blades did you get through *work*
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 21.10. 2018 17:02
it was already the right length  for a previous job can't remember what it was,( maybe an awkward diff plug) so i just had to cut the sides off to form the blade. Not too bad with a decent hacksaw blade. Couldn't be bothered to get the grinder out and gloves and find some goggles etc . I'm all for an easy life.  *smile*. Mind you it would've been quicker with the grinder.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Greybeard on 21.10. 2018 17:50
You do know you can buy hex socket plugs for our cranks now, don't you.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 21.10. 2018 20:09
 Yes thanks I did see them after I had re-fitted mine. Just thought the allen key screwdriver might be handy for someone trying to remove an original one.
The latest little surprise was to find new big end shells fitted to a conrod which has obviously had a bearing spinning in it at some point. Suspect this all goes back to the sludge issue, the crank has obviously been reground and new bearings fitted but with the oilways completely blocked thankfully it has never been run since this work was done.
Oh well let's see if there are any conrods on Ebay  *conf*. This bike is full of little surprises.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 21.10. 2018 22:45
 PD.  Before you condemn the rod, your local engine reconditioner should be able to reclaim the big end eye. This is a fairly common engineering procedure. If you are looking on eBay, remember there is  the one rod with the hole and the one without.  Also worth getting the journals checked to make sure the shells are the right size for the crank. New shells on a well worn crank journal are a waste of time and money.  Rod should be marked 67 1160 for a big journal crank.  Rods are identical apart from the drilled hole in the web of the drive side rod.   The timing side bush and its oil supply function are critical, plenty to read elsewhere on this forum.

   Loctite is easily softened by heat. Even a cheap hot air gun makes life easier fitting piston pins, bearings etc and freeing off those old rusty useful bits you pick up from time to time.

  Swarfy
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 21.10. 2018 23:02
 
 Pete, Just looked at your magnificent sludge trap device on the crank.. The crank looks a little different from normal.  Is that a protective sleeve over the timing side main bearing journal? All cranks I have seen have an annular oilway in that journal, and the journal is the same diameter from the crank cheek to the start of the timing pinion location. The drive side splines also look to have wear. They should be the same width  along the shaft. From the picture it looks as if they have a wear step.  If you do a search for BSA A10 Crankshaft Images you will see the difference.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: duTch on 21.10. 2018 23:16

 
Quote
.......and  the crank looks a little different. Is that a protective sleeve over the timing side main bearing journal?.....

 I saw that earlier but figured it must be a sleeve as there's not much of a radius at the web....I think the 'step' in the spline is wear from  a loose nut- the sleeve splines don't go all the way to the end of the crank splines- least they don't on mine *dunno*
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 22.10. 2018 08:15
Thanks for the info Guys.
I'm not sure what that sleeve is and will need to investigate it. The journals are minus .040" and look as though they have been re-ground before the engine was built up complete with sludge. The dia is pretty much spot on and with new shells I can't feel any play.
Yes there is some wear on the splines probably caused by a loose cush drive. The worn bit has been built up with some sort of compound and to be fair the splined hub is a good fit on the shaft, time will tell if the mystery compound is any good.  I'm looking out for a better crankshaft but nothing available at the minute. The rods are indeed 67-1170s  but ....wait for it.....they both have a hole in *????*
This is becoming a bit of a saga but hopefully we'll get there......eventually.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: duTch on 22.10. 2018 08:45
 
Quote
.......The rods are indeed 67-1170s  but ....wait for it.....they both have a hole in *????*.........

 That'll start a whole new debate over whether it matters- my cockle shells' worth (no pun intended- but handy *smile*) is if you have a bearing shell with no hole you can use it to block the hole, otherwise can be plugged with something magic.... *eek*...fairly obvious really *conf*
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 22.10. 2018 10:04
  Pete. If the crank has been reclaimed at some stage by fitting a sleeve and grinding to size, I would expect the sleeve to extend the full width of the timing bush (yours looks shorter)  and have a groove and oilway to supply the big ends. This looks to be absent. Just wondering if this is a temporary codge  by the vendor give the impression the engine was OK internally when you went to collect it, and  it was never intended to run.

    As far as I know, 40 thou U/S shells are the smallest regrind size. So unless you are absolutely sure it is basically a sound crank, another crank is your best option.

  Sod's Law says now you want one, there are non to be had. So, pretend you can't be bothered. One will appear.  Instead do something simple, such as  wheel bearings or brakes. 

  I would save checking the gearbox until you have achieved a little success.....It will probably be just as bad as the motor, and there is a limit to how much more stress and anguish you need.

  Keep posting your progress, best of luck,  spanner on.

   Swarfy
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: muskrat on 22.10. 2018 10:11
G'day fellas.
That sleeve is the inner part of the timing side roller conversion inner race. There is a similar but much shorter piece that go's on to form the groove for the balls.
Red arrow is that piece, yellow arrow is it's mate, green arrow is what should be in the case (where the bush used to live).
Cheers
http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/mybsaa10rollerconversion.html   this is the conversion I have in the Cafe.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 22.10. 2018 10:19
 Musky....All change for Pete, maybe?  He may be luckier than we thought....assuming he has all the bits and the conversion has been completed.  Next  episode may reveal all.   Swarfy.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: RichardL on 22.10. 2018 11:28
G'day fellas.
That sleeve is the inner part of the timing side roller conversion inner race.

So, it's an interfernce fit?

Richard L.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: muskrat on 22.10. 2018 12:10
G'day Richard.
Mine is a very sung fit say size for size, just needs warmth from hand to be a nice slide fit. The interference fit is the outer in the case.
Cheers
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: RichardL on 22.10. 2018 12:24
Hmmm. I'm just askin' for my curiosity and because I'm ignorant, is the slide fit enough to keep the sleeve from spinning on the crank, or is spinning normal (and lubricated)?

Richard L.

No, Muskrat, I am not trying to make you crazy.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: chaterlea25 on 22.10. 2018 15:45
Hi Richard and All,
The inner race and it's matching ball bearing half cone are held in place by a spacer and then the timing pinion/ worm nut and locknut
BUT, if this has an endfeed conversion I cannot see the quill that should stick out on the crank end (on my mobile fone)
John
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 22.10. 2018 18:22
Evening All
Managed to source a better conrod today and yes Muskrat all the pieces are there for the timing side roller. Two bits of good news in one day but I don't expect this euphoric state to last for long. Thinking along the same lines as Swarfy and will spend any spare time polishing wheels or adjusting brakes while I wait for pistons and stuff to arrive. Gearbox is a high risk of stress item and must wait till I have a string of successes behind me.
Thanks for the input.
Pete
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: ellis on 22.10. 2018 20:25
Nice looking S7. Had one for 8 years as a teenager and flogged it to death, i now know better.  *eek*

ELLIS
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 23.10. 2018 08:22
My Wife says it's the ugliest thing she has ever seen in her life. *eek* Some people have no appreciation of fine art
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: chaterlea25 on 23.10. 2018 11:56
Hi Pete,
Back home and looked at the crank photo on the laptop
The quill for feeding the crank is still not there?
Is the crank drilled through from the threaded end?
Can You post a few photos of the inside of the timing cover if it has an oil feed boss added in, and the timing side end of the crank?
I'm wondering if it was an unfinished project or was the quill removed for some reason?????

John
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: cyclobutch on 23.10. 2018 17:20
My Wife says it's the ugliest thing she has ever seen in her life. *eek* Some people have no appreciation of fine art

Mine is in mist green, and will have to go ... if I ever get it going again. It has migrated further from my field of view this weekend. Now in the shed with the mowers. Hopefully to lay undisturbed until at least the spring.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 23.10. 2018 20:14
Hi John
The crank is drilled from the threaded end, the drilling extends up into the gallery that contains the sludge trap and from there oil flows through the two holes in each big end journal. Not sure what the quill is that you mention but I'll check it out tomorrow. Does it supply oil to the timing side bearing? The bearing is exactly the same as the one in the diagram posted by Muskrat.

I checked the end float today and what a surprise it was .040". No doubt due to the complete absence of any shims. I got it down to .004" so that'll do. The bike was bought from a deceased's estate and I can't help but wonder if a spirit with a wicked sense of humour is having a good old giggle somewhere >:D
Thanks for your attention.
Pete
Late extra. I've been reading about these timing side bearing conversions and apparently that side now takes the axial thrust so no shimming required at the drive end. *conf* Not sure at all about the oil supply now. Will take photos tomorrow. *cry*
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: chaterlea25 on 23.10. 2018 23:03
Hi Pete,
A steel tube is pressed into the drilled end of the crank, this is then machined to run true.
The oil feed is diverted either to a block "welded" into the outer timing cover fitted with an oil seal or to the jiggery jig
linked to on the Beeza Bill thread

There is no need for shims when the combined roller / ball bearing is fitted
I mentioned earlier that the outer ball bearing cone is held tight by a spacer placed outside it and clamped by the timing pinion and nut

Attached is a pic of a modified timing cover that I found on another thread
Also a borrowed A65 pic from SRM's website showing the diverted /added oil galleries

I feel that you need to do a lot of research and study the parts you have carefully in order to successfully complete this rebuild, as its non standard and there's no written manual for end fed setups

John


Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 24.10. 2018 08:07
Morning All.
Looks like I have half of an SRM conversion. *roll* The case has obviously been machined out to take the new bearing and the crankshaft has been drilled through to the oilway but no quill so there's no means of getting oil to the big ends. Idon't know what those 2 grub screws are for either side of that gallery.
My first inclination is to see if I can return everything to standard with an oversize bush and a plug in the end of the crankshaft.
All ideas and theories most welcome.
Thanks again to those who spotted this, not being familiar with these engines I might've just built it up. *doh*. (Mind you I'm getting more familiar by the day)
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Topdad on 24.10. 2018 10:26
Good morning Pete, I've had the timing side bearing and end feed conversion done by SRM quite a few yrs ago ,( thats on the bike by the way and not to me  *whistle*)  I'd suggest a call to them . When they do a job they keep records and I've always found them very helpful. Also they need the crank cases ,obviously the crank the pump and the inner and outer timing cases ,they mark there jobs similar to that on Johns t/case in the picture ,if you can find a number on anything that would be a real boon for you as they can trace the job ,also they may record the engine number . It'll only take a few minutes and could bring you an alternative way of completing this rebuild , even if they could refit a quill that would be a step forward, lets know how you progress, Bob.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 24.10. 2018 10:36
  Hi Pete. Once more it is decision time. To state the obvious and for the benefit of those to whom it is a mystery, this is how the oil system is supposed to work. These engines have what is known as a "dry sump". The oil pump can be considered as two pumps, side by side. Any oil that collects in the crankcase is returned to the oil tank by the scavenge side of the oil pump, which has a larger pumping capacity than the feed side.

    Oil from the tank is drawn by gravity and suction into the feed side of the  pump, which then forces the oil  under pressure through a spring loaded non return ball valve, and then to the back of the timing bush. The bush sits tightly in a nice smooth housing machined in the crankcase, which in an ideal world is perfectly in line with the drive side bearing in its housing. The back of the bush has an annular oilway and oil holes to feed oil to the bush bearing surface and also by a miracle of hydraulic dynamics, feed oil into the crankshaft oilways and then to the big ends. The bush oilway connects via another drilling to the pressure relief valve. Depending on the model year, this surplus oil pressure vents to the oil pump cavity on early models, or as in your later version, passes to the camshaft trough via internal oilways in the timing side crankcase.

  Now we come to the tragic bit. If the non return valve leaks when the bike is parked up, oil will pass through the pump, through the oilways and timing bush and accumulate in the sump. This termed "wet sumping", and is dependent to a degree on the bearing clearance and the wear in the pump and bush, and the inability of the valve to seal against gravity flow. This is of no real consequence on a machine in regular daily use, but manifests itself frequently on bikes parked up for longer periods. Here a sump plate with a convenient drain plug is a good idea. There are various options to deal with this phenomenon.

  Now to consider your findings. In a conversion such as yours, you should find a non standard oilway somewhere that has  been machined or plumbed into the housing to connect to the relief valve. Without removing the bearing outer to check, there should be a free flowing connection between the hole with the valve in it, (Oil pump pressure output....  push a matchsick into the hole, you should feel a spring loaded ball) and the oilway at the back of the relief valve location. Even if this has been done you can still go back to standard. If it has not been done, then you have to decide whether to go down the conversion route completely, or stick to standard. No new oilway anywhere would indicate either a poor knowledge of the engineering considerations, or a failure to complete the conversion.

  Without this oilway, the oil has reached a dead end, and you have no way for oil to reach the relief valve or any subsequent arrangement to feed the crank oilways.  So this is the deal breaker.....oilway in place? Stick with the conversion..  No new oilway? The bearing will have to come out either to machine an oilway or go back to standard.

   Chaterlea John has given us some excellent views of what in involved. You need to find out how far the conversion has been completed, as you are already a good way there. The bearing design cannot hold oil pressure, meaning  the crank oilways must be fed in a different way, the most obvious is from the end, hence the various designs to achieve this.  The roller bearing may or may not have its own oil feed, but as oil will accumulate in the oil pump cavity, there is probably enough there to allow it to survive.

  If you stick to standard, remember over time the crankcase location for the bush may not be round, it may be also be gouged and abused. Any leakage between the housing and the outside of the bush  will result in loss of some oil pressure to the bearings. This location can be bored out if necessary, and an oversized O.D bush obtained.  Also, for the best result, after installation the bush should be line bored (in line with the drive side bearing location) to give the final running clearance.  If you are lucky and the case is OK, choose a one piece bronze bush of smaller size than your crank, to allow for final line boring to size. If the crank is worn or scored, just get it ground just enough to clean up the journal. Then choose your bush.  Remove material from a relatively cheap bush rather than a rare expensive crank.

   SRM are the experts here if you stick with the conversion and are a good starting point for more information. A fair amount has already been invested in this motor, and removing and reinstalling the roller bearing may not be easy, so think of your options and cost/benefit considerations. Done properly the conversion will give a long lived reliable engine. If SRM did the original conversion they should have a record.

  Hoping this helps, and will assist you in your next move.


   Swarfy.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: duTch on 24.10. 2018 11:29
 Having all that ^^ said, before doing anything it may be worth measuring the T/S journal and compare to standard to see if it's been machined to accommodate the conversion sleeve...and generally see where it's at  *dunno*
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: chaterlea25 on 24.10. 2018 12:15
Hi Pete and All,
As said the crank timing side journal is machined down to fit the bearing inner
The conversion does not look like an SRM
one , the tube fitted  in the photo looks threaded and a plug added at the outside
SRM fit a plain tube and weld over the outside,
It maybe a very early version though??
The conversion is almost complete it would make sense to complete it as what would have been the expensive part of the work is already done

John
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: cyclobutch on 24.10. 2018 13:12
Roger at Cake Street was devising his own version of this some years back. Not sure if he ever put it into 'production'.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: JulianS on 24.10. 2018 14:00
I dont think it an early SRM, mine was done by them back in 1984 when they were in Penarth.

The photos show that setup.

In the last photo you can just see the oilway going to the PRV.

No oil bleed to main bearing in the large needle roller outer.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 24.10. 2018 18:08
Pressed the bearing out today and no machined groove linking the oil holes. The bearing outer case has an annular groove with a hole through to the inside but the groove doesn't line up with the holes in the casing. Also for some reason the inlet to the pressure relief  valve has been blanked off with a grub screw. The inner race just about fell off revealing a rough machining job below and I thought I read somewhere that the two flats inside the case that help locate the bush should be removed when boring the casing but strangely they have been left on.
I haven't got much confidence in the way this job has been done so I've just about decided to see if I can go back to standard . Going to see the local engine re conditioner on Friday to see if he can sleeve and regrind the shaft stub back to standard. Also as the casing has been bored out I'll need an oversize bush or a sleeve to adapt an original
No sign of the non return valve Swarfy but I've had reasonable success with the external ones on a couple of my other bikes so might use one of those.
Success today  *yeah*,managed to clean loads of bits and even fitted and reamed 2 new little ends  *lol* So I'm quitting while I'm ahead and settling down with a beer to contemplate the meaning of life Maybe try to work out why we continually put ourselves in stressful situations in the name of old motorbikes. *conf*.
Thanks again for all the input.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 24.10. 2018 19:18
 Pete, the ball valve should be  behind the small slotted plug on the inside of the crankcase, adjacent to the bearing location. With all the chaos you have found, this could have been removed or not re assembled. If the crank can be sleeved to run in a bush, you will have to re drill the sleeve to join the oilway to the big ends.  iI am thinking another crank may be your best option.

   Swarfy.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 24.10. 2018 19:52
I'll check that tomorrow Swarfy  I noticed the plug today but didn't realise that's what it was. New crank would deffo be the best option but none available just now. One will probably turn up as soon as I get it finished. No doubt it'll be in bits again so it's something to look out for.
On the subject of taking things to pieces twice I'm wondering now if I should strip the other 7 bikes to check the sludge traps. *conf*
One of them is a Hinkley Bonneville so that doesn't count
Cheers
Pete.
Might nip out and check that NRV now. ;)
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: RichardL on 24.10. 2018 19:56
My videos, always good for a laugh at my expense. This one showing removal of the oil retaining ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IaZnt5WHeI&t=12s

Richard L.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: chaterlea25 on 24.10. 2018 21:24
Hi Pete and All,
There is probably a simpler solution to the anti drain ball /spring
It may already have been converted to the A65 system,
It is very simple to incorporate this when rebuilding the engine,
All that has to be done is enlarge the oil passage from the rear of the oil pump to towards the grub screw
Again all this has been posted in previous topics
The oil pump gasket needs to be a good fit on the studs and may need modifying slightly around where the ball will seat against the rear of the pump
The great advantage of doing this mod is if a wet sumping problem occurs its a much smaller job to access the ball valve

Pete,
If I were you I would seek the advice of someone who is very experienced on BSA A10 engine repairs, not somebody who just talks about repairing them  *eek*

John
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Greybeard on 25.10. 2018 00:22
When I see this topic in the list I want to sing, 'Sludge Traps and Pistons and warm woolen mittens. These are a few of my favourite things'.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 25.10. 2018 08:06
Sometimes in life you just know how something is going to be and I would have bet my a£$e that there wouldn't be a ball bearing, and of course there wasn't,or a spring either. What was there was a long grub screw going nearly to the bottom of the hole and partially blocking the drilling through to the main bearing. 
Looks like your A65 mod might've been done John as the hole seems to have been enlarged to about 5/16" meaning there's no step to act as a seat. There's no spring or ball either but that's just par for the course.
I'm wondering what rhymes with mittens *whistle*.Maybe we could re write the whole song using motorbike components *smiley4*
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.10. 2018 08:52
 Pete ...Well done for keeping at it.  As a bit of light relief, a little ditty.

           Crankshafts and pistons, oil pumps and gaskets,

           Bikes that you buy, delivered in baskets,

           Bent frames and forks with rusty old springs,

           These are a few of my favourite things.

            There you are GB, see what else gets added.


         Swarfy.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 25.10. 2018 10:48
Swarfy! I'm impressed at your artistic talent. A man who can write lyrics and fix motorbikes must be a rare thing. Any chance of a YouTube video with a live performance? 😎
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Topdad on 25.10. 2018 11:28
next verse ,not as good but .....

boring bars, inline reamers with bushes and bearings,

pistons that fit and camshafts that spin

these are a few of my favorite things
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.10. 2018 12:46
   Sorry folks, bit busy for YouTube. Doing the North Face of the Eiger later today.

   Topdad is on the money, just needs a little addition...

    Boring bars, reamers,  bushes and bearings,

    Pistons that fit, old  fibreglass fairings,

     Camshafts that spin, to give the old bike some wings,

     These are a few of my favourite things.

     Swarfy.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Greybeard on 25.10. 2018 13:05
Pete, I am so very sorry about this *red* ! Maybe this forum needs a poetry/song section. Admin, would you be so kind as to split and move all this silliness to the Off Topic folder. Ta.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Topdad on 25.10. 2018 14:21
Boo hiss ! Ok I'll go stand in the corner  *sad* *sad*
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 25.10. 2018 16:57
Genuine Smith's chronometric tachometer,
Nice Moore and Wright old imperial micrometer.
I phone up the dealer and his till goes KERCHING,
These are a few........................

I've been humming that b£**&y tune all day. *whistle*

Maybe Greybeard had let the genie out of the bottle. So much frustrated talent. Men in sheds doing oily things but dreaming of fame and fortune  *yeah*

Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.10. 2018 17:19
 Pete, back to reality.

   Just compared Julian's pukka conversion with what you have.  Yours looks a good copy. The pump output feeds into the crankcase as normal. The grub screw you found blocking the oilway means no supply to the roller bearing, as we would expect. The threaded bar, if it is hollow, would mean an oilway leading down to  the extra hole in the crankcase, where the oil could be fed by some means to the end of the crank. If your arrangement is the same as Julian's, there should be a similar oilway drilled from this junction to the pressure relief valve, which is isolated from the back of the roller bearing by the blanking grub screw.
  If I am right, you are a good way towards finishing this conversion, and also have a means of checking the oil pressure by a gauge plumbed in where the small blanking plug enters that junction.

   Nice addition to the song.....
 

  Swarfy.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: PDMiller on 25.10. 2018 18:39
Yes that sounds exactly right. There is a drilling from the relief valve housing to what I think is a dowel hole in the crankcase, the threaded pipe from the pump discharge side leads to the same hole. as you say the blanking plug on the drilling leading to this hole would make a take off for a pressure gauge. the only thing that's missing is whatever takes oil to the end of the crankshaft.
I've blanked off all the extra drillings including the one in the crankshaft in a way that they could be returned to this state if need be in the future should I come across the crankshaft feed arrangement.
Still searching for the A65 anti sumping mod, I'm fairly sure it's been done but they left out the ball and spring.

Stripped the oil pump today and nothing broken, worn out, or missing  *wave* *loveit*. Also the new pistons and sludge trap blanking plugs arrived. All is well in my little corner of geordie land tonight. Tomorrow may be different. :!
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: groily on 03.03. 2019 17:59
No poetry here (sorry!), and not the oily bits either this time - but jeez - all sorts of things can happen when cranks are full of shite  . . . here's one small element of the rebuild requirementof a major let-go on a Trihard twin  . . . 'just cruisin' along at 55mph I was  . . . and then this happened'  . . . Crank, rods, barrel, all sorts of sundries, and this. Bloody hell.
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: Swarfcut on 03.03. 2019 18:36
Ignition System

 Magneto... Typical

 Exploded Diagram Showing Major Components.

   In the style of Haynes..." Reassembly is simply the reversal of the dismantling procedure."

 Swarfy.


 Additional.... How are the rider's vital parts?    Looks  a very  spectacular way to have a bad day.!
Title: Re: Sludge traps and pistons
Post by: groily on 03.03. 2019 21:53
Nice one Swarfy!

Owner's vitals intact (- according to his wife, after close inspection). Pain is concentrated in the lower regions nonetheless - of the pocket.
Spectacular demolition job, indeed it is. Just glad it's not mine!