The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: olev on 25.07. 2009 00:11

Title: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 25.07. 2009 00:11
Gday Rocky,
Want to tell us about your electronic ignition?
I see the original magneto body is still there.
Are the pick-ups in the magneto where the points normally are? and what is it like to ride and tune?
cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: rocket man on 25.07. 2009 22:12
ok here goes electronic egnition first ove all
the pickups are in the mag its an srm kit and youl need to
covert to 12 volts wich can be done bye fitting a belt dinamo
drive kit which ups the dinamo speed and here are a few pics ove the kit
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Mosin on 26.07. 2009 06:04
This looks interesting. What sort of price are you paying for these kits?
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: rocket man on 26.07. 2009 11:08
 SRM  have produced an electronic ignition conversion kit for the LUCAS K2F and K2FC magnetos. The kit has been designed to retain the original look of the magneto and yet have all the advantages of the Boyer MICRO-POWER ignition system. This system is used because of the low power consumption of the electronics, an important factor with the limited power of a LUCAS dynamo (60 Watts). The electronics are also very compact allowing them to be easily ?hidden? on the bike. A special sensor unit, manufactured at SRM, replaces the original magneto armature. This unit provides the timing signal for the ignition box and small dual output coil. The electronic ignition system provides an extra high energy spark at start up, precise ignition timing, ?mapped? advance curve and a high power coil.

The kit is simple enough for fitting at home (no machining is required) and is supplied with all the parts required and comprehensive instructions.

These kits have a proven reliability record and many customers are surprised at how much the electronic ignition has improved their machine. The kit requires a 12v electrical system but can be wired for positive or negative earth (If you have a 6v system this can be easily converted to 12v). its 300 british pounds
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Mosin on 26.07. 2009 13:00
Sounds good (although my wallet won't run to £300 at the current time). What sort of price is the dynamo belt drive kit?
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 26.07. 2009 19:02
I wouldn't tell anyone how they should do up their own bike, but Boyer Micro Power was a total disaster on my bike and I am not unique in that.  Ask on WWW.triplesonline.com

If people are pleased with their Micro Power, that's good, but are they doing many miles?

Be aware that the current draw may be low (<1 amp), but that's at high rpm when it wouldn't matter- current draw is several amps at idle.  Also, all connections, switch contacts and the battery voltage must be perfect or the ignition goes crazy.  I found that ignition switches had to be replaced regularly under winter conditions.  Don't bother using the cheap crimp connectors supplied in kits by Boyer; they are not up to the job.  Their bent brass HT terminals are rubbish too.  When the blue box failed completely and Boyer were unable to tell me what was wrong, they offered to sell me another one for £110, but I declined.
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: rocket man on 26.07. 2009 20:35
ive had a total rewire and my dinamo has been totaly reconditiond i also have 12 volt electrics so i havint had eany truble with my boyer kit and im not telling
enyone what to do with there bike i also only use mine in good weather
because i want to keep her in good condition ive spent a small fortune on her
but shes worth it  *smile*
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: rocket man on 26.07. 2009 20:42
the belt drive kit is about 85 pounds
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 27.07. 2009 07:27
The couple of old fogeys I know who use manual advance magnetos only use them for starting.
They then wind them to full advance and leave them there. Maybe you can do that with old sad singles.
I always believed the auto advance on our twins gives full advance at 3000rpm and Orabanda confirmed this during a dyno test.
The curves I've seen for Boyer and Pazon just keep going up (more and more advance) with higher revs which is logical, I think.
a few people on this forum have or have had electronic ignition on various machines, so I ask them, aside from any thing else, is there any difference in the ride at say 3500rpm, 4000rpm and at valve bounce.
cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 27.07. 2009 08:38
The manual advance on most bikes, singles or twins, is only retarded for starting and sometimes to get a good slow idle or a low-speed crawl in traffic.  There are enthusiasts who like to twiddle the lever at other times, but there's little need.

As for auto-advance and electronic advance, fully advanced at 3000 rpm is about right for an old twin. The Boyer is actually pretty nearly fully advanced by then too, so there isn't a performance difference (not that I can detect). 

I don't know exactly why, but the correct fully advanced timing figure seems to be the same from 3000rpm, right up  to full revs.

There is no doubt that electronic ignition gives better timing control at high rpm than points.  I expect that practically all successful racers use electronic ignition. 

The New Zealand-made Trispark system gets a much better press than Boyer these days.  Has anyone fitted it into a mag-replacement casting?

I use a mag now, because however flawed,  I believe that for a dynamo-equipped bike in road use, it is the least of several evils.  But that's the great thing about a discussion forum- you're not trapped by some pub bore (me) battering you with one set of prejudices.  Other people have different experience, different requirements and different opinions.  Just be careful of pro- Boyer, or pro-Alton advice from people who sell them.  Also beware of the people who love modifications for their own sake.  They may be happy with an interesting, event-filled biking experience, while you might find that original standard specification lets you just travel around reliably.
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 27.07. 2009 10:42
Triton got it right.
The magneto is more than adequite for a slow reving motor like an A 7 or 10.
Once you go electronic you have added another level of complexity because the bike is now 100% dependent upon the generating system being top notch. Also any electrical glitch like a short in the brake switch will stop you dead in your tracks.
So to any electronic ignition price add a complete over haul of the dynamo.
The EP3L in its' standard form is only good for 80 watts when it was new and the magnets were at full strength. The voltage makes no difference to the output, 6V or 12V it will still only put out 80W.
A 65's went from 80 to 100 to 120 Watts and they were still short of electrons.

I am not trying to be a modification Nazi but you need to have a good think about it.
When it is all said and done it is your bike and if 16" rims with 8" tyres, S&S carb hanging out the side, ape hangers and a fluro green paint job gets your juices flowing then by all means do it
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: MikeN on 27.07. 2009 11:07
the belt drive kit is about 85 pounds

Try Tony Hayward who makes them for SRM .
He sold me mine considerably cheaper than SRM sell them.
If you ring him he is always prepered to talk to you and explain specifications  etc

http://www.motorcyclewebsite.com/home/a0_T/a0_TO/i99_Tony_Hayward

Ive also had 2 of his superb belt drive primary kits.
Mike

Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 27.07. 2009 22:03
The Alanticgreen website has analysed Boyers in depth.
They are still advancing the spark at 2500rpm distributor speed = 5000rpm.
The attached link is from Pazon in NZ so might be a bit one sided (I think Trispark are in Adelaide?)

http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/info1/PAZONvBOYER3.pdf

The ignition is still advancing when the revs are through the roof.(and I think they should)

and Trev, not so much a modification nut but getting with the times.
Its a bit like the old Ducati quote 'Turning riders into mechanics for 40 years.'
Its been a hell of a long time since i've been under the bonnet of a car with a timing light and dwell meter and I don't miss it at all.
I haven't identified a decent electronic alternative yet but it'll be on in a 'flash' when I do (pun intended)
cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Mosin on 14.04. 2010 11:42
As mentioned in other threads, I have just fitted a Pazon Surefire ignition system hosed in a magneto replacement casting onto my A7ss.

The reasoning behind this was twofold:


As I am still running the bike in I am not in a position to be able to comment on the running at higher revs just yet. However, the improvements in starting and at tickover are collosal. Over the past six years I have had both hips replaced and always found starting the bike to be very hard work (although this may have been to some extent because the crank was in suce a poor state). This was always a huge worry when riding slowly in traffic that the bike would stall and I would not be able to get her going again. Now all that is required is the most half-hearted prod on the kickstart and she leaps into life from either hot or cold. I've converted to 12v and have a halogen at the front and LEDs everywhere else. I have retained the original chain drive on the dynamo and will wait to see how I get on with it before considering uprating to a belt of some description.

First impressions are very favourable and so far I am very pleased with the system, however, I recognise that it is still early days. Once I have used it a bit I will be able to offer more detailed feedback.
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: tombeau on 14.04. 2010 13:43
that's the great thing about a discussion forum- you're not trapped by some pub bore (me) battering you with one set of prejudices.  Other people have different experience, different requirements and different opinions.  Just be careful of pro- Boyer, or pro-Alton advice from people who sell them.  Also beware of the people who love modifications for their own sake.  They may be happy with an interesting, event-filled biking experience, while you might find that original standard specification lets you just travel around reliably.

Brilliantly put TT.
Cheers,
Iain
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 14.04. 2010 20:18
G'day all,
            i have had no problems with the Boyer. The only time it gives trouble is when there is a fault in the wiring or battery. The timing goes all over the shop. The advance peaks at about 4000 rpm, but I do think it starts advancing a little too early.
Once I finally get the cafe sorted out I'm planing to re-do the '51 back to almost srd, but retain the 12 volt and elec-ign and get one that fits in the magy body. I think I'll try the Pazon.
To each his own. That's what makes this a great place and be able to bounce ideas off others who may have been down that path. It's great to keep them going in whatever form we wish.
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 04.05. 2010 10:35
Electronic system on 60 super Rocket.
To add the diversity on the subject I will describe the Runtronic ignition.
You will see in the pic a black box 4 by 4 cm in size. From the box goes two leads to the spark plugs. On the left side of the box you can see 6 volts coming in. On the other side there is a lead going to a sensor placed where the mag normally lives. Two small magnets at 180 degrees apart rotate past the sensor at half engine speed like the Lucas mag. ( See New member from Sweden). There are no outside coils at all. Advance curve is built in to the box.
The power it needs is very small ,much less than 1 amp. This system was designed for model engines but seems to work well in bigger ones as well. For model aviation use the the small weight is very wellcome.
Initially I used the sensor placed alongside the crankshaft in the primary case but  got problems as the small magnet(5x5mm) got hot from the engine warming up.
I am not very good at electronics myself. The good sparks that come out from those spark plugs with that kind of input energy is magic to me.
The described system has worked for around 1000km for me so far.It is fed from Lucas 6 volt dynamo through 6 volt gel battery.
I am your test pilot.
Erik
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 04.05. 2010 19:55
Thanks Erik,
                looks very compact with the coil and control box in one. It will be interesting to see how it performs long term. Do they come in 12 volt ? I see you use a V-reg11 which is also a 6 to 12 volt converter so you could go that way if the ign unit allowed.
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 05.05. 2010 17:38

Its available for 6-24 volts.  I believe mine is one like that but going safe staying with 6 volt as it works pretty well with Halogen and LEDs everywhere possible. I am also very interested in how long it will last. By the way it needs 250 mAmps at 12000 sparks a minute.
Good sparks everyone.
Erik
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: mike667 on 05.05. 2010 18:23
Electronic system on 60 super Rocket.
To add the diversity on the subject I will describe the Runtronic ignition.
You will see in the pic a black box 4 by 4 cm in size. From the box goes two leads to the spark plugs. On the left side of the box you can see 6 volts coming in. On the other side there is a lead going to a sensor placed where the mag normally lives. Two small magnets at 180 degrees apart rotate past the sensor at half engine speed like the Lucas mag. ( See New member from Sweden). There are no outside coils at all. Advance curve is built in to the box.
The power it needs is very small ,much less than 1 amp. This system was designed for model engines but seems to work well in bigger ones as well. For model aviation use the the small weight is very wellcome.
Initially I used the sensor placed alongside the crankshaft in the primary case but  got problems as the small magnet(5x5mm) got hot from the engine warming up.
I am not very good at electronics myself. The good sparks that come out from those spark plugs with that kind of input energy is magic to me.
The described system has worked for around 1000km for me so far.It is fed from Lucas 6 volt dynamo through 6 volt gel battery.
I am your test pilot.
Erik

interesting - any idea about how the advance curve works? or am i missing something
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 05.05. 2010 20:37
Good ? Mike. It must be in the magic black box the same as the Boyer/Pazon/Trispark. The trouble is wot u get is wot u got, no way of tinkering like with a bob weight system. A friend suggested it has something to do with the magnets and coils in the sensor. I'm not sure but would love to find out.
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 05.05. 2010 22:43
When I fitted the system I had a degree disc fitted on the crankshaft.Also used strobelight. When revved as much as I dared  the spark went up to 35 degrees and down to something reasonable like 5 or 10 on tickover.At that time I was satisfied with that. I am happy with the way it runs on the road. Low tickover and no pinking when accelerating,and the same spark timing on both cylinders. I have not been riding very fast yet ,speeds like 75 mph has been my maximum so far. A slipping clutch has to be solved too!  I read in the makers paper that  full advance is at 5500 crankshaft speed. On my bike that should correpond to 11000 rpm ! Ideally the sensor should be on the crankshaft.
I have nothing against a good magneto,but till then I am very happy as it is.
Erik
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 06.05. 2010 11:15
You mean camshaft. At the crank you will get spark at BTDC and BBDC. This would mean a spark while inlet valve is open !!! Not good. I hope I'm wrong !
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 07.05. 2010 09:45
Muskrat
To clarify,there are two small magnets in the rotor driven from the normal magneto gear. This produces sparks in both plugs ,be it in compression or exhaust phase.  When mounted on the crank I used only one magnet to produce the same sparks. This extra spark does not affect  the running as far as I can see or hear.
Cheers
Erik
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: bsa-bill on 07.05. 2010 10:02
You mean camshaft. At the crank you will get spark at BTDC and BBDC.

No - on the crank, surely you get a spark at BTDC on the compression stroke and again BTDC on the exhaust stroke, or have I missed something ( not unknown )
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: groily on 07.05. 2010 10:29
don't think you missed anything bill!
Lots of engines run with dead sparks using double-ended HT coils. It's an easy way of running a twin with one contact breaker (or pick-up for that matter).
Does get folk into discussion about plug polarity and all that from time to time - ie which way is the spark jumping the gap on the plug. Some say, if they run opposite polarity, it's good to swap the leads round now and then and give them both a dose of 'wrong' way running, but I dunno. (In any case, unless there are any funny issues to do with inductance or something I don't understand, it should be possible to make a twin spark coil that delivers same polarity sparks each end, if the windings are correctly 'handed' inside. Not sure how the coil works on my one dead spark bike - it just does and long may it.) 
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 07.05. 2010 10:35
Yes absolutely.
BTDC compr.stroke and BTDC on the exhaust. Hope this makes sense.
Head spinning around. (my head).
Cheers
Erik
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: bsa-bill on 07.05. 2010 11:49
You think your head is spinning !!, I've just finished filling in my tax return on-line for 2009/2010 *problem*.
To be honest it was not too bad until the last bit where it works out how much you owe them, didn't seem right but it seems that they assume you will earn the same next year so they add in some of what you might owe next tax year ( although that bit is not due until 2011 ).
Now to pay my dues ( of course I could go Greek -apologies to all tax paying Greeks )
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 07.05. 2010 14:32
OK Erik, got it now. you didn't mention only using one magnet so you can see where I was confused, as if using both on the crank I would have been right. (don't tell the missus, that's not allowed)
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 08.05. 2010 14:05
Muskrat
Sorry if I misled you. Will keep you informed about how it works out in the future.
Erik
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 09.06. 2010 04:51
I need to hide a cute little ignition coil on the plunger, preferably not too far from the plugs.
I'm sure someone will have invented a neat bracket to accomplish this.
So far my attempts lack that 'workman like solution'
all suggestions (including insults and abuse) welcome.
cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 09.06. 2010 05:01
G'day Olev,
                    I use a Rhonda Whore coil from the old points type. But not having ANY feminine side I just used foam and zip ties to mount it under the top frame tube. Out of sight, out of mind.
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 09.06. 2010 07:29
Muskrat,
Some might say you are a rough b*****d.......but not me. i wouldn't say that.
I am however looking for something a little more elegant or feminine.
i've got 2 coils both with twin outputs. Ones off a honda and the other is off a BMW.
Both work ok on the bench.
cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 09.06. 2010 09:46
Thanks Mate,
                      my old man stuck around till I was 3, so I'm not a b*****d. *smile*
 You could go arty and use hose clamps.
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Mosin on 09.06. 2010 15:17
I need to hide a cute little ignition coil on the plunger, preferably not too far from the plugs.
I'm sure someone will have invented a neat bracket to accomplish this.
So far my attempts lack that 'workman like solution'
all suggestions (including insults and abuse) welcome.
cheers

I struggled for ages trying to solve this problem on my swingarm A7 using a dual output coil. Half the problem was that the coil is a very irregular shape. I eventually settled on mounting it traversely across the bike just above the carb air intake, by using a couple of spacers to fix the coil to a bracket which was then bolted to the top/back of the battery tray. I'm not sure that this arrangement would work on a plunger framed bike, but I can try and get a couple of photos tonight if that would help?

Simon
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 10.06. 2010 03:35
Thanks Simon,
I'd be interested in seeing those photos.
cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 10.06. 2010 08:07

Does get folk into discussion about plug polarity and all that from time to time - ie which way is the spark jumping the gap on the plug. Some say, if they run opposite polarity, it's good to swap the leads round now and then and give them both a dose of 'wrong' way running, but I dunno. (In any case, unless there are any funny issues to do with inductance or something I don't understand, it should be possible to make a twin spark coil that delivers same polarity sparks each end, if the windings are correctly 'handed' inside. Not sure how the coil works on my one dead spark bike - it just does and long may it.) 

Interestingly(ish), the twin cylinder magneto gives spark of different polarity to left and right plug, although not at the same time.
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Mosin on 10.06. 2010 20:40
Ok, here are some photos showing how I overcame the problem of here to position my coils. I admit that they do slightly detract from the "look" of the engine, but they are securely mounted, close enough to the spark plugs, and relatively protected from the elements, so I can live with that. The Pazon ignition trigger is mounted under the seat.

Hope this helps,

Simon

Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: terryk on 11.06. 2010 13:36
that looks like a fire waiting to happen
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 11.06. 2010 14:54
Great balls of fire  *eek*
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Mosin on 11.06. 2010 20:01
I did naturally consider the whole issue of fire carefully when opting to position my coils so close to my "trouser department" as it were....

However, I figured that on the vast majority of bikes, the coils are positioned somewhere directly beneath the fuel tank without major incident caused by leaking fuel. The other option would be that the coils catch fire electrically and ignite the tank - again this would be an equally great problem for most bikes where they are positioned below the tank, and my coils are a sealed unit and are independantly fused so the risk of electrical faults is kept to a minimum. The third concern was a backfire through the carb air intake causing a fire. I considered this for some time and came to the conclusion that the most combustable thing on the bike (apart from my wedding tackle) was the fuel tank and if anything, having the coils mounted where they are actually provides an, albeit minor, amount of shielding to the tank should a carb backfire occur.

Also there was the not-insignificant factor that there is virtually nowhere else on the bike to put them!

If I have missed anything glaringly obvious that may result in my plumbs getting an unwelcome toasting, please please will someone point it out before it's too late as my wife is already talking about trying for another baby and I have managed to persuade her to agree that if she gets pregnant again I am allowed to buy another bike.....
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: chaterlea25 on 11.06. 2010 23:36
Hi Simon,
Just an observation on your photos, there should be an insulation spacer between the carb and cylinder head
this is usually about 1/4in. thick paxolin or tufnol, the studs are already long enough (pic)
The heat can transfer to the carb without this making hot starts difficult!!

As you say its hard to find somewhere to hide stuff on the A's, on mine I hid the oil filter in the toolbox and fitted the electronic reg onto the mudguard brackert under the seat
I have seen coil ignition pre unit Triumphs with the coil mounted on top of the distributer which replaced the mag

Cheers
John
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 12.06. 2010 06:40
Simon,
Look out mate, its a female plot.
The real truth is the more kids you have the less bikes you can afford.
You'll have twins and have to sell something and it won't be the lawn mower.

I don't have the lump in the frame yet but from photos there seems to be quite a lot of room in front of the engine and under the tank.
I suspect this is where Muskrat lashed his coil so it gets a bit of air and doesn't melt over his pretty chaincase. For some reason a picture of Sir Anthony Hopkins with eyes like soup plates peering through his goggles springs to mind.

The attached pic is my magneto converted to pickup.
It was turned up by a mate in Cairns. The cost of the booze used designing the thing would have bought a BTH
Its different to Rocket mans setup shown at the start of this thread. (where's your coil?)
It uses a siemens HKZ 101 hall effect pickup which was used on heaps of cars.
This drives a champion cm410 ignition module which is available from any Repco shop for about $40. It chucks good sparks on the bench. We'll see how she goes in real life one of these days.
cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: wilko on 13.06. 2010 01:00
Can you give us a wiring diagram for this hall effect system so i can wrap my head around how they work?? (Old Fart)
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 14.06. 2010 12:48
Old Fart ?? - I resemble that deeply!!
The system is similar to Beeza Bill's (RIP) 'poor mans electronic ignition'
http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/poorman.html
It uses a coil ignition module to fire a twin plug coil and gives a wasted spark.
Instead of the reluctor we've used a hall effect sensor which gives a 40mA signal when a piece of metal is passed through the air gap. My mate has done a brilliant job building the sensor into the original magneto body.
It uses the original atd but this could be replaced by using a pazon or boyer black box instead of the ignition module.
The pics might make it clearer.
He turned the sexy brass cover up from an old sink plug
cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: wilko on 15.06. 2010 01:00
Sorry Olev, i mean't me as the old fart. Could one use any old lawnmower part?
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 15.06. 2010 10:31
G'day Olev,
                   looks like you should market them. A lot cheaper and parts at any wreckers.
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: olev on 15.06. 2010 12:47
Wilko,
I'm the one should be apologising. I knew that.
If you read it again you'll see i was taking the ***.  oops.
I don't know much about mowers but some of the new small engines have some real tricky stuff for ignitions.
Muskrat, yes the parts are cheap and easy to get. I'll wait to see how it works on the bike before getting too carried away. It chucks a good spark on the bench though.

Any of you cockroaches still interested in 'state of origin' football?
Brace yourselves - here it comes again.
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: bsa-bill on 10.08. 2011 20:21
Hi all - as I'm having the usual maggie problems my thought have wandered to this subject of electronic ignition..

Still undecided but the last two years (or more) of trying to get reliable starting on higher compression pistons has led me to question what's best, both my maggies have been reconditioned but neither have delivered reliable warm starting on8.5 or 9.5 pistons, I know other people get them to work but you've got to wonder how long a restored maggie is good for ( in fairness the main maggie was on a shelf for a couple of years before I put it on but still.

So as this subject was around a year ago I thought I'd ask how those of you with electronic ignition were getting on with them a year on
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: RichardL on 10.08. 2011 21:16
Bill,

This won't add anything to the electronic question and I hope I don't regret saying this anytime soon, but I have had reasonable warm-starting sucess on a very old mag and 9:1 pistons; 356 cam (that is, since I stopped flooding the engine with the tickler every time). Other than a basic rebuild without replacing the armature, spark seems to be good from what might be a 56-year-old condenser. I guess my point is that it may not be necessary to give up on the mags. Now, maybe I'm missing something and would find that I get a lot more first-kick starts if only the spark was hotter.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 10.08. 2011 21:25
G'day Bill,
             try 18 years. I got my first one for the racer. When it retired I put it on the '51, it's still there and going strong. I got a new one a couple of years ago for the cafe, I love it but. I would like a programable advance curve same as the dyna2000ip for HD's to try and combat pinging with the high cr.
Both are boyer with mag replacement unit.
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 16.08. 2011 12:02
In regards to the Runtronics Ignition units
There is a chap in the US that does a trigger for the units.
Basically they work the same as the old "Atom" ignition modules used in 2 strokes for decades.
The closer the magnet is to the pick up the faster the curve.
A friend of mine has been using one in his Mettese T120 dirt racer for some years.
It works so well he has fitted them to all of his racing mates bikes ( after first blitzing them for two seasons ), and that includes B44's, Cottons, Bullies, Cobras.
The unit is simply a switch  and a solid state DC amplifier with a power transistor attached to the out put leads.
They put out a series of sparks,( 3, I think)  rather than a single big spark so can be fun if you are using a combination strobe / tacho to set idle speed.
Since the advent of reliable solid state electronics there has been no need for energizing a massive lump of iron and hundreds of meters of copper wire to generate a mass of heat and a tiny spark.
Mike gets 17 hours racing from 3 "c" size Ni-Cads.
We were going to market them to motorcyclists but gave up on the idea.
Firstly, because your bike will, for the first time in it's life, actually fire every time without fail, it will run very hot and very very lean so you will have to go up several jet sizes or put big holes in your pistons ( ask me how we found this out ).
This will lead to a massive increase in power out put from the engine such that the standard clutch also can not cope ( same story ).And Then the Trumpy broke a main shaft.
Pommie bike riders being the sort of people they are will naturally ignore these instructions, blow up their motors then claim damages against us so we gave up on the idea.
Also tuning is a problem. The trigger sensor is adjustable both in an arc ( timing ) and radially ( advance ). It is a little tricky to do and considering the amount of trouble that most BSA riders have doing a shit simple thing like installing a Boyer or Pazon marketing it as a "do it your self" modification was not on.
The inventor will not sell us development rights to develope this for motorcycles and marketing has been seeded to an American ( whose name illudes me for the time ) and he is also not interested in any thing but retailing them as is.
They cost in the order of $ 450 Aus which as we all know is way , way , way too expensive for any BSA owner to even think about and then we would have to add fitting & tuning labour costs to it as well.
So there is the dope on Runtronics.
I will be fitting one to the B40 & all the B44's when I get around to putting them on the road
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: iansoady on 16.08. 2011 12:12
Don't pull your punches mate, tell us what you really think ;)
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 16.08. 2011 12:30
Well it was a brilliant idea.
We put a lot of time into it.
We made a drop in replacement electronic ignition that could be installed in about 4 minutes and be almost undectable.
It is also not particularly voltage sensative and will happily work down as low as 4 V and as high as 8V ( 6 V unit ).
Not meaning to sound superior or smart but how many problems can you recall riders having fitting Boyers, or solid state regulators and they are some thing that you can just about do with your eyes closed.
How may time have you seen some one on this list bemoaning that they had to spend $ 200 or more to fix their magnetos ( for the first time in 60 years ).
SO how many here would fork out $ 600 for an ignition system, save speed demons like Musky .
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: muskrat on 16.08. 2011 14:45
 Who do I make the cheque out to?
I was looking at $500 for a dyna2000ip and try to modify that (read hacksaw) to fire at 180 instead of 157.5/202.5.
Cheers
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 17.08. 2011 11:08
Hello again.
Interesting to read Trevors post on Runtronic. I have been running this system for a few years now. I am not an electronic mastermind so  regarded this system with some scepticism in the beginning. Time will show was my reasoning when fittting it to my 60 Rocket, but
I can report that  it works very well. Good spark with a minimum of electric 6 volt power.My mistake was to fit a Mikuni at the same time, sorted by now.
In the UK the system seems to be available from Weston UK, dealing with model engines and aeroplanes, or Hab electronics here i Sweden.
Erik

Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 17.08. 2011 12:33
Musky,
This is what you need
J023 ?S-twin-flux?:  the new ?fluxsensor? replacing the standard sensor $ 295.00
Or you could use 2 single units but that will really hurt the pocket
You buy them from:-
JE PERFORMANCE ,   P.O.Box 333, South Beach, OR 97366, USA;  
Phone: (541) 867-3194;  Fax: (541) 867-4964;
E-mail: jep@edstroementerprises.com Homepage: http://www.jeperformance.biz

You will still need to make a mounting plate for both the magnet & pick ups.
We turned an aluminum disc and mounted it under the cush drive nut with the pick ups mounted on a sandwich plate between the primary covers so you could just bolt it on sans cover for timing purposes ( it was the BETA version )

On the Unit bikes it got mounted onto a plate which fitted over the stator nuts with the magnets glued into a plate that fitted onto the end of the rotor ( timing pin needs to be shortened )
On the race bikes of course the whole alternator is discarded so the ignition bolted onto the end of the crank and the Ni-Cads were glued into the primary cavity ( a whole lot easier )

The prices have gone up a bit since then but so has the dollar.
You really need the "Fluxsensor" pick up to be able to tune the bike properly so it is now $ 295 US, plus fittings and labour so you can see why we gave up. Racers happily spent that sort of money  for 10% + more horses but "classic riders" won't

If you go down this path, watch the mixture, you really need to richen the brew and look closely at the cooling because with one in you can really turn up the heat.

Very little work was done for road use, just on Mikes daily ride, most was done on the dirt bikes and they only run for 20 minutes tops.
I was going to do the "road" testing but my finances went down the drain and Mike was never interested in any thing but race applications.
They I moved, changed jobs twice and when I tried to phone him last another company was in his old factory so he may have gone the same route as me. He was the bloke who did the banners for Wallerawang & Maitland and things were not looking too prosperious last year.

Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 17.08. 2011 12:50
Eric.
Just to satisify my curiosity did you fir the standard pick up unit or the variable "fluxsensor " one ?
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 17.08. 2011 14:40
Sensor
I use the normal sensor situated in place of the Lucas magneto. Made up substitute taking fiber gear in one end and rotor + sensor in the other end. Easy to adjust ignition rotating sensor. Timing of course requires removing transmission cover to fit degreewheel.
Started out fitting sensor at the crank but it got problems that I assumed was that the little magnet got hot so tried the position out in the wind. I believe there are different magnets taking higher temps.
Erik
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: cpdlink on 13.02. 2017 21:20
Hello from Montreal/Canada everybody - this is my first post here,

Sorry for replying to a such an old thread, but I have a couple of questions for Erik

I am also looking into an electronic ignition solution for my k2fc magneto, and so far [ http://www.westonuk.co.uk/westonuk2_073.htm ], apart from its incredible small current needs, is the one with the smallest footprint I could ever find - which is exactly what i am looking for

In an effort to keep the bike as close as possible to original look, i am thinking to install this EI module, right inside the magneto housing after, of course, replacing the armature with a simple shaft to make up some space inside

So here is what i would like to know, if you don't mind:
1. Are you still using this, any complains/concerns/suggestions after all these years
2. Is the module getting hot during normal usage - i am a bit concerned that inside the magneto, the module would not get the ventilation it needs

If anybody else has first hand experience with this product, please share

Regards,
-Chris
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: Rocketerik on 20.02. 2017 14:42
Hello Chris.
That was a while ago but interesting to go back into that world again. My Super Rocket something has not been ridden very much the last years. As it stands right now in the cold in the garage it has the Lucas magneto fitted. I expect it will start and run as soon as the spring comes again. I will also expect that there will a slight pinking sound from the left side of the engine . That might be the result of the sparks not coming 180 degrees apart from the otherwise good Lucas K2f magneto. That is something that I hope to look into when I find the time and motivation. This forum will give me good information as to how to do it I believe.
When last fitted with the Runtronic a couple of years ago it gave me a problem by not immediately restarting after a 40 km ride . It took me home but some time later a bad bearing was discovered in the housing living where the Lucas normally lives. Myself to blame for that as I had made it myself.  There was a rotor rotating at half engine speed with two small magnets 180 degree apart. The sensor was in a lid outside,easily turned to adjust timing. That used to  work quite well but I felt that the spark at kickstart kicking speed was to retarded (!!) for easy starting. Here I must admit that In tried to use the obvious crankshaft -triggering as well but abandoned that because the large radius that gave the little magnet. Still a bit of a mystery is how to control the advance curve ,to me at least.  I believe the R was initially designed for model engines,thats where I met them first.
So,nr one Question.I don't use it now but still temped .
Nr two. Have never felt any heat from the Black box but believe it likes some air around it.
All this may well have been confusing.By the way I actually talked to the designer Rune living still hopefully not very far from where I live in the south of Sweden.From what I remember he is clever with electronics ,not a man of words.
Good luck and feel free to ask any question ,to me or anybody on this friendly forum.
Erik Y
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: cpdlink on 28.02. 2017 07:51
Hi Erik,

And thank you for your answer

I've sent you a PM

Regards,
-Cristian
Title: Re: Electronic Ignition
Post by: KeithJ on 17.07. 2020 08:02
Hello Chris.
That was a while ago but interesting to go back into that world again. My Super Rocket something has not been ridden very much the last years. As it stands right now in the cold in the garage it has the Lucas magneto fitted. I expect it will start and run as soon as the spring comes again. I will also expect that there will a slight pinking sound from the left side of the engine . That might be the result of the sparks not coming 180 degrees apart from the otherwise good Lucas K2f magneto. That is something that I hope to look into when I find the time and motivation. This forum will give me good information as to how to do it I believe.
When last fitted with the Runtronic a couple of years ago it gave me a problem by not immediately
restarting after a 40 km ride . It took me home but some time later a bad bearing was discovered in the housing living where the Lucas normally lives. Myself to blame for that as I had made it myself.  There was a rotor rotating at half engine speed with two small magnets 180 degree apart. The sensor was in a lid outside,easily turned to adjust timing. That used to  work quite well but I felt that the spark at kickstart kicking speed was to retarded (!!) for easy starting. Here I must admit that In tried to use the obvious crankshaft -triggering as well but abandoned that because the large radius that gave the little magnet. Still a bit of a mystery is how to control the advance curve ,to me at least.  I believe the R was initially designed for model engines,thats where I met them first.
So,nr one Question.I don't use it now but still temped .
Nr two. Have never felt any heat from the Black box but believe it likes some air around it.
All this may well have been confusing.By the way I actually talked to the designer Rune living still hopefully not very far from where I live in the south of Sweden.From what I remember he is clever with electronics ,not a man of words.
Good luck and feel free to ask any question ,to me or anybody on this friendly forum.
Erik Y

Thinking about trying a Runtronic unit.  Have sent you a pm but does not appear to have been sent.  Appreciate your update and comments. Thanks