The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Frame => Topic started by: Steverat on 16.01. 2019 05:29

Title: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 16.01. 2019 05:29
My new silencers from Armours do at least rub if not actually interfere with the lower rear subframe on Josef’s Beeza. I think the frame is straight. I pushed the exhaust pipes about halfway into the head counterbores, maybe I should push em all the way in but they are VERY tight and I don’t feel like hitting them even with the rubber mallet. Normally Armours pipes are such a good fit, I think I must be doing something wrong.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Swarfcut on 16.01. 2019 09:01
Steve.... This is one of those situations where you search for the best compromise.

  If you consider there are  areas of location which are critical to a good fit, then you have to choose which is best for you and involves  the least damage to your new chrome finishes.

  The mounting hole in the small bracket at the rear of the silencer may be just  slightly in the wrong place, as may be the bracket itself, making the silencer too high. The mounting bolt though the lower lug that clamps the plunger column should be fitted with the thick built in "washer" to the outside, positioning the silencer away from the frame tube. Extra packing here is possible.

  We all like to think the exhausts will fit perfectly from a well known supplier, but experience shows this is often not the case. I would make sure the head ports are clear of carbon and rust, maybe work the surface with a bit of emery or dremel grinder,
 grease the pipe end and push and wiggle the pipe so that it bottoms in the head.  Push the long stud through the joining tubes in the frame out of the way and position the exhaust pipe and silencer so they clear the frame and do not obstruct the brake pedal.

  This means that any fine adjustment can be done on the exhaust pipe mounting bracket. Tweaking the bracket and enlarging the hole are less noticeable here. If you are lucky and the hole lines up with the stud, a few washers  here can move the pipe sideways for the best fit.

  Fitted correctly the silencer lies extremely close to the frame tube without actually touching. 

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Tomcat on 16.01. 2019 10:00
Armours.
That is the problem.
I buy exhausts from a shop that I can walk into, so that I may return them with the minimum of cost if they don't fit.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: cyclobutch on 16.01. 2019 11:46
Armours ... That is the problem.

Yep - thereby hangs the tail.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 16.01. 2019 13:42
Steve.... This is one of those situations where you search for the best compromise.

  If you consider there are  areas of location which are critical to a good fit, then you have to choose which is best for you and involves  the least damage to your new chrome finishes.

  The mounting hole in the small bracket at the rear of the silencer may be just  slightly in the wrong place, as may be the bracket itself, making the silencer too high. The mounting bolt though the lower lug that clamps the plunger column should be fitted with the thick built in "washer" to the outside, positioning the silencer away from the frame tube. Extra packing here is possible.

  We all like to think the exhausts will fit perfectly from a well known supplier, but experience shows this is often not the case. I would make sure the head ports are clear of carbon and rust, maybe work the surface with a bit of emery or dremel grinder,
 grease the pipe end and push and wiggle the pipe so that it bottoms in the head.  Push the long stud through the joining tubes in the frame out of the way and position the exhaust pipe and silencer so they clear the frame and do not obstruct the brake pedal.

  This means that any fine adjustment can be done on the exhaust pipe mounting bracket. Tweaking the bracket and enlarging the hole are less noticeable here. If you are lucky and the hole lines up with the stud, a few washers  here can move the pipe sideways for the best fit.

  Fitted correctly the silencer lies extremely close to the frame tube without actually touching. 

 Swarfy.
Yup, you just described the way I fitted mine. I had to make some packing spacers for the long through-stud.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: a10gf on 16.01. 2019 14:31
Had the problem on my plunger, didn't look too much into why and how, fitted a piece of rubber between frame and silencer and forgot about it :O)
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 16.01. 2019 18:25
Steve.... This is one of those situations where you search for the best compromise.

  If you consider there are  areas of location which are critical to a good fit, then you have to choose which is best for you and involves  the least damage to your new chrome finishes.

  The mounting hole in the small bracket at the rear of the silencer may be just  slightly in the wrong place, as may be the bracket itself, making the silencer too high. The mounting bolt though the lower lug that clamps the plunger column should be fitted with the thick built in "washer" to the outside, positioning the silencer away from the frame tube. Extra packing here is possible.

  We all like to think the exhausts will fit perfectly from a well known supplier, but experience shows this is often not the case. I would make sure the head ports are clear of carbon and rust, maybe work the surface with a bit of emery or dremel grinder,
 grease the pipe end and push and wiggle the pipe so that it bottoms in the head.  Push the long stud through the joining tubes in the frame out of the way and position the exhaust pipe and silencer so they clear the frame and do not obstruct the brake pedal.

  This means that any fine adjustment can be done on the exhaust pipe mounting bracket. Tweaking the bracket and enlarging the hole are less noticeable here. If you are lucky and the hole lines up with the stud, a few washers  here can move the pipe sideways for the best fit.

  Fitted correctly the silencer lies extremely close to the frame tube without actually touching. 

 Swarfy.

Thanks for the good advice, I’ll try opening the ports with my dremel and a little flap wheel. Will be sometime next week since we are away helping with a new grandchild.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: BSARGS650 on 16.01. 2019 18:40
Mmmm...Never had much luck with Armours....The Siamese system would just not fit, returned, bought elsewhere and all fitted fine.  The hi-level system bought for my B31 was another poor fit example, the exhaust pipe stuck so much I could not get my foot on the rest.  On complaining, the person one the 'phone was aggressive and blamed my incompetence on fitting.  Usual thing; "We have sold thousands without complaint".  Never again.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: duTch on 16.01. 2019 18:52

 
Quote
...... I’ll try opening the ports with my dremel and a little flap wheel.........

 Have a good real hard think about that- could open a can 'o worms; maybe the ends of the headers are burred or deformed....
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 16.01. 2019 22:54

 
Quote
...... I’ll try opening the ports with my dremel and a little flap wheel.........

 Have a good real hard think about that- could open a can 'o worms; maybe the ends of the headers are burred or deformed....

No burrs I already checked
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: muskrat on 17.01. 2019 01:14
G'day Steve.
I'd clean the ports but definitely not open them up. You need a good snug fit into the head as the first mounting point is at the front bottom of the motor. As said could open a can of worms later on.
Cheers
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Swarfcut on 17.01. 2019 08:00
Steve, What I meant was to  only remove any scale or rust in the ports that is stopping the pipes from seating. Just a "polish" of the casting surface, not removing any of the original metal. If you have to alter anything, sacrifice the aftermarket pipes, not the original BSA part.
 duTch is right to stress caution here.

 As Musky says they need to be a snug fit to achieve a degree of gas tightness.  The finned collars will cover any removal of material from the pipes if your quality purchases are truly out of spec and you have to relieve them a bit.....try the silencer end of the pipe in the port as a broach.

  I have had problems with Armour's pipes, but in truth they probably come from the same source whatever the brand, so they are all as bad as each other. It is almost a miracle if they fit perfectly out of the box.

 Swarfy
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: a101960 on 17.01. 2019 08:22
Quote
Mmmm...Never had much luck with Armours....The Siamese system would just not fit, returned, bought elsewhere and all fitted fine.  The hi-level system bought for my B31 was another poor fit example, the exhaust pipe stuck so much I could not get my foot on the rest.  On complaining, the person one the 'phone was aggressive and blamed my incompetence on fitting.  Usual thing; "We have sold thousands without complaint".  Never again.[/quote ]Thats my experience too. Customer relations not even in their vocabulary. Like you went some where else (Roger Sharman Cake Street Classics) exhaust fitted perfectly without any fettleing.   I personally would not touch Armours with a barge pole after my experience with them.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 17.01. 2019 09:03
Well I have used Armours many times and this is the first time I’ve had a problem.

I put a compression plate in the motor which will have displaced the pipes slightly upward but that doesn’t explain the extreme tightness in the ports. Head has been vapour blasted so no scale or rust in there. Yes maybe I’ll trim the pipe end first.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 17.01. 2019 13:00
I used to get the head end of my pipes expanded at a muffler sop so they were a very tight fit in the port.
Then run the engine for 3 minutes or so, poke the pipes in and position quickly.
Pipes are not some thing  you take off daily so a tight interfearance fit is good.
To remove, block off the outlet and give the engine a handfull.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RichardL on 17.01. 2019 13:24
Not that I am expert on plungers, silencers, or maybe anything, but it seems to me that these silencers for an RGS (or the like) are not intended to work on a plunger, which has quite different frame geometry for supporting the rear wheel.

Richard L.

Let me rewind this comment. In the first photo, I took the silencer to be the tapered type with a straight outlet pipe. The latest photo shows the cylindrical silencer I would expect on a plunger. Apoligies for any confusion caused by mine.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 17.01. 2019 14:49
Not that I am expert on plungers, silencers, or maybe anything, but it seems to me that these silencers for an RGS (or the like) are not intended to work on a plunger, which has quite different frame geometry for supporting the rear wheel.

Richard L.
The correct silencer /muffler has a tag welded on in the correct place for the stud at the bottom of the plunger assembly. I imagine that the down pipes/headers are specific for this design also.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 17.01. 2019 16:00
Yes one bracket on top of each silencer at the back plus one longer bracket on each downpipe. I have twin pipes ie non-Siamese. And they are not for an RGS! Still struggling however. Here are some snaps of todays efforts. I have used the outlet end of the pipes to broach the head ports as suggested, they both go all the way in now... but still the header end refuses to push in for the full 24 mm counterbore. When its in as far as it will go (see snap) and the silencer bracket is tightened onto the lower plunger clamp bolt, the (mid-way) pipe bracket is about as close to the frame as Calais from Dover docks (see the other snap). If I take the silencer off however, the pipe tucks neatly under and the pipe bracket goes straight onto the front engine mounting stud like a lamb.

Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 19.01. 2019 21:13
Thanks for your comments by the way. Summoning up the courage to grind the headers into the ports. My hope is that if the header goes in those final ~4mm then the pipe will pivot slightly and bring the exit end down for the silencer to clear the frame at the back. If I dont then I'm stuck with trying to attach the pipe bracket to the engine mount stud across the English Channel. See photos above.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 19.01. 2019 22:59
As I said, I had to make spacers for the downpipe brackets
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 19.01. 2019 23:30
Yes Ian, I get that now. From the side, (pic #1) the assembly doesn't look too bad. Pics #2 and #3 show the locations to put the spacers. But the silencers are still pressing against the lower rear subframe tubes.

I want to get the header outlet lower in order for the silencer to clear the frame tube. Its difficult to exert sufficient force to do this. I can't bend the pipe itself, I think I have to clamp the silencer up on the header, take the silencer bracket off the plunger clamp bolt, then with the engine mounting stud out of the way, put my weight on the end of the silencer, which will put the maximum bending moment on the header where it enters the exhaust port, deforming the end of the header in the port sufficiently for the silencer to come down and stay down. I think thats what Swarfy said already, its just that I need a bit of courage to do it with all my 15 stone. To tell the truth, I'm a bit worried about the strength of the casting.   *doubt*
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 20.01. 2019 06:26
Yes Ian, I get that now. From the side, (pic #1) the assembly doesn't look too bad. Pics #2 and #3 show the locations to put the spacers. But the silencers are still pressing against the lower rear subframe tubes.

I want to get the header outlet lower in order for the silencer to clear the frame tube. Its difficult to exert sufficient force to do this. I can't bend the pipe itself, I think I have to clamp the silencer up on the header, take the silencer bracket off the plunger clamp bolt, then with the engine mounting stud out of the way, put my weight on the end of the silencer, which will put the maximum bending moment on the header where it enters the exhaust port, deforming the end of the header in the port sufficiently for the silencer to come down and stay down. I think thats what Swarfy said already, its just that I need a bit of courage to do it with all my 15 stone. To tell the truth, I'm a bit worried about the strength of the casting.   *doubt*

Last call for your views - shall I bend it? Still worried that I may break the exhaust port out of the head. I'm off for some breakfast now, maybe I'll feel braver afterwards.

Thanks
Steve *conf*
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RichardL on 20.01. 2019 07:19
Not that I am expert on plungers, silencers, or maybe anything, but it seems to me that these silencers for an RGS (or the like) are not intended to work on a plunger, which has quite different frame geometry for supporting the rear wheel.

Richard L.

Let me rewind this comment. In the first photo, I took the silencer to be the tapered type with a straight outlet pipe. The latest photo shows the cylindrical silencer I would expect on a plunger. Apoligies for any confusion caused by mine.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 20.01. 2019 09:59
Here is my bike, freshly restored with exhausts from Fecked. The header pipe appears to have a smoother curve than yours, but it is difficult to judge these things. The front of the silencers are touching the frame. That is not a problem as there is no movement between them.

When I fit mine I put the header pipe in the head first, locating the long stud in the holes in their brackets, complete with spacers, leaving the nuts loose. I then fit the silencer and spring the assembly down to get the silencer bracket onto the stud on the plunger. Then I tighten the header pipe bracket nuts. My headers pipes are long and go about 6" into the silencers.

Be careful about tightening those finned cooling rings on the headers; they are very weak.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 20.01. 2019 10:07
Last call for your views - shall I bend it? Still worried that I may break the exhaust port out of the head. I'm off for some breakfast now, maybe I'll feel braver afterwards.
Trying to bend the pipe does not sound good to me.  *eek*
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Swarfcut on 20.01. 2019 10:08
Steve.....On no account attempt to bend the pipe using any part of the engine as a fulcrum. You stand a good chance of breaking something.  Your picture looks as if the exhaust pipe is pointing very slightly upwards, which makes me think the error is in the sweep of the bend in the pipes, in other words to make them fit you need a downward bend almost from the pipe mounting to make this part of the pipe run level.

   You will never bend such a pipe easily and without damage with stuff in the average household....the odd crowbar, scaffold tube, big hammer.

 Your options are to return them if unmarked, try another pipe from somewhere, or find a local exhaust fabricator or pipe manipulator who can move the pipe more to where you want with the aid of a nice big hydraulic press and mandrels. My thoughts of amending and adapting the lower mounting seemed to be the best short term fix. Looks like the curve on the pipes is too tight, and raising the port that bit higher with the cylinder base spacer is making the misalignment worse as any error is magnified by the time it reaches the end of the pipe. 

  Correct plunger silencers have a no taper along their length, and are recessed underneath to clear the raised stand feet. The silencer should also lie level, front end clear of the frame. (In an ideal world!).  Or as GB's fine example illustrates.

  Swarfy

  Additional... Shortening the port end of the pipe, assuming it is straight, by just a very small amount may be just enough to allow lowering of the back end of the pipe. It can settle further into the head, pivoting  on the lower mounting.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: duTch on 20.01. 2019 11:21

 This is reminding me of the tribulations I had fitting my headers that were 'new' chrome "Made in England" and FU-Jack sticker on them....bought cheapish (AU$100) for a reason...as I discovered  *pull hair out*

 The top ends were both tapered in same as Trev,so had to make an expander tool to stretch those, which worked well (unlike Trev, I didn't feel I could entrust them with an exhaust shop as I don't know anyone in that game)

 Then I had to cut 30mm off the same top ends as they stuck out that much too far, but then found the bend started too close in so the finned ring doesn't sit right....and the pipes still aren't seated properly- but I don't care at the moment as after six years, they don't appear to leak and runs fine, so I just use it...but that's me  >:D

 What I found to be the problem after doing 'templates' of the headers on a sheet of ply (before final installation), and comparing that to a similar template of the old pipes (bought secondhand in the '70's so probably ridgy-didge), is- the original headers have a top bend of *I think* 3" radius and the new copies have a radius of 3,1/2", which is enough to completely F***ck everything, and combined with a different bottom radius (~9" from ~9.5" off the top of me 'ead- which I don't think is right anyway but close) made the job a headache like Steves....

 Lucky both the mounting brackets apart from totally bodge, were not close to being in the right places, so I cut those off and welded some stainless flat bar on with a separate flat angle making 'two piece brackets'. Doing that at least made it easier to sort the other crap out....I'll fix them properly one day *beer* *work*

 Of course this is of no help to Steve, except I'm feeling your pain... *pull hair out*
 
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RichardL on 20.01. 2019 14:34

 (~9" from ~9.5" off the top of me 'ead- which I don't think is right anyway but close) *whistle*

Dutch,

The story of fitting your pipes is one of creativity, tenacity and, obviously, honesty.  ;) *smile*

Richard L.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RDfella on 20.01. 2019 16:13
Exhausts on the A series are notoriously finniky. I believe it's Feked who make a slightly different front pipe that they claim will fit all as a solution. The problem is that it takes probably only a couple of thousandths of an inch out at the bend to create a problem, because BSA ran their pipes so close to the frame. The LH one on my A10 touches the frame. Best bet is to tweak the pipe but, as others have said, don't use the head as a mounting point for your leverage. I usually try to find a tree with a fork in the trunk and use that. It's not as if we're doing major bending work - just a tweak. Failing that, insert something in the pipe to prevent it being crushed and mount it in a vice (with fibre jaws) to get that 'tweak'.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: chaterlea25 on 20.01. 2019 18:29
Hi Steverat,
Adding a thicker spacer or a washer or two to the rear plunger mounting should move the silencer out from the frame
I seem to remember that while working on a plunger single, that there was a special bolt to take the silencer with a "thick head" and stud to bolt the silencer to  *????* *????*
Check the header pipe for "ovality" at the head end,  *????*

John
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 20.01. 2019 19:22
Hi Steverat,
Adding a thicker spacer or a washer or two to the rear plunger mounting should move the silencer out from the frame
I seem to remember that while working on a plunger single, that there was a special bolt to take the silencer with a "thick head" and stud to bolt the silencer to  *????* *????*
Check the header pipe for "ovality" at the head end,  *????*

John

Yes John I have the “stud headed” bolts on the plungers already. But good point about packing them out some more. Maybe I’ll make some special ones.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: duTch on 20.01. 2019 19:26

 
Quote
Dutch,

The story of fitting your pipes is one of creativity, tenacity and, obviously, honesty.  ;) *smile*

Richard L. 

 You forgot 'Insanity' and a few other synonyms..... *conf2*
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 20.01. 2019 21:05
I seem to remember that while working on a plunger single, that there was a special bolt to take the silencer with a "thick head" and stud to bolt the silencer to...
In one of Steve's photos you can see that he has the correct bolt/stud at the bottom of the plunger.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Peter in Aus on 21.01. 2019 01:06
Steve.....On no account attempt to bend the pipe using any part of the engine as a fulcrum. You stand a good chance of breaking something.  Your picture looks as if the exhaust pipe is pointing very slightly upwards, which makes me think the error is in the sweep of the bend in the pipes, in other words to make them fit you need a downward bend almost from the pipe mounting to make this part of the pipe run level.

   

I agree with Swarfcut. those those header pipes are just plain wrong. If you can, send them back for a refund is the best bet.
Trying to bend them to fit is almost impossible.
Peter
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 21.01. 2019 14:01
I do have a suitably shaped "forked tree" in the garden, but it would not hold the pipe. So I tried using a mandrel which I held in a very substantial vice. The Armours pipes are aptly named, they are so heavy and strong. Impossible to bend by hand even with Nick's help. I tried out the old pipes from the bike, and hey presto they are a perfect fit and no touching of frame tubes nor necessity for spacers either. Voila:


Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 21.01. 2019 14:43
Here is a link to a folder on my Dropbox account.

As it's off the bike at the moment, I've put some pictures on there of my bike's right-hand header pipe on the bench. I've added that picture of my bike from when it was newly done with the same pipes. I've also put the picture of your project bike with the new downpipe. The first bend of the Armours pipe looks too sharp to me. It almost looks like it's less than 90°. The old header looks to be a much smoother curve. 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/46w4lwq5yduaxg7/AAB2ZIer4WF92rtHu3Q0tu_Ka?dl=0


Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 21.01. 2019 19:24
Thanks Ian
I have ordered another pair from Burton Bike Bits who were amazingly responsive, should be delivered tomorrow already. Then we will see. BBB get theirs from Wassell. I will report!
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: coater87 on 22.01. 2019 15:32
 I think whatever Armours uses for an A10 standard or pattern is way off or worn out.

 I had a lot of problems with their stainless pipes too, had to have them mandrel bent and then completely re-polished. With shipping to the US and all the additional steps I have quite a bit of money wrapped up in the exhaust of this bike.

 But I sure do like it.

 Lee
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 22.01. 2019 16:17
Burton Bike Bits were wonderful and got a pair of pipes to me within 24 hours.

But....

They fit slightly better than Armours' but not good enough. To stop the silencers rubbing the frame I have to set the headers only halfway into the exhaust ports, and then they splay out so widely I would need spacers under the lower brackets - worse yet the nearside one starts to interfere with the footbrake lever. I also phoned Drags who informed me that Armours are actually the only manufacturers in the UK, - they supply Drags too - so my BBB pipes may be Armours - I probably have 2 sets of Armours pipes. They certainly look similar to each other.

The old pipes fit like a dream of course...

So I called S+T to talk about re-plating the old ones. Unfortunately they are now in the January rush and I'd have to wait 8 weeks to have them done. Since Josef is coming for the bike in March that is a nono.

So now I have a real problem. 3 pairs of pipes on the premises and nothing which I can use! Feked was the other tip but I can't seem to raise them on the phone, they were busy until 3 and now there is a (friendly) ansaphone messsage saying they don't answer calls after 3 o'clock. Hmmm...

Not my best day today. Any ideas gentlemen?
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Swarfcut on 22.01. 2019 16:57
Steve.... I would be inclined to contact Burton Bike Bits and explain that the pipes supplied are a problem, and get a refund. This forum has information about the trading record of popular suppliers, well worth checking out. Returning the Armour ones may be difficult if they are unfit for resale to another sufferer, so the best here is to negotiate a possible partial refund. Might be worth a trip South to bang on the counter rather than send them off to never be seen again, despite what the present rulings on distance selling says.

  So, press on with final assembly, and spread the net wider for chrome plating establishments. Get Google working for you,  there are plenty up the M5 in the West Midlands.  If all fails its just a polish with aluminium foil/water to remove the rust, or some exhaust paint to set the new trend in restoration perfection. I think if Josef wants the ultimate finish, this will have to wait.  Better a useable machine that's 99% right and out of your way.

 Swarfy.

 
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RDfella on 22.01. 2019 18:16
As I understand it, there are two or three different shape bends, presumably according to year.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: KiwiGF on 22.01. 2019 18:33
As I understand it, there are two or three different shape bends, presumably according to year.

Over in nz we have limited choice in motorcycle exhaust manufacturers  *sad2* .....in case it is also relevant to the UK (and Armours) the local guy I know cannot make all the large radius bends, or bends that change radius, so the “custom” pipes I’ve seen made by him are made up of smaller radius bends plus straight sections that were not present in the original pipes (hope that makes sense). Once you know how this it’s not hard to see the difference between oem and his custom pipes.

He does make them so they fit properly though  *smiley4*

Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: a on 22.01. 2019 23:43
aaaagggh!! Sory to hear of the dramas, But does make us happy to hear that this is not something that just happens here in our shop.
We wont sell pipes, and even reluctant with mudguard/fender mounts, as the fitting can vary so much!! Worn out jigs with reproduction types, and even differences in bikes. Yes believe it or not not every one of these bikes were built with in .0001" of each other, and what fits one bike, may need tweaking to fit an exact same bike across the other side of the world. Hell we have Brand new bikes here from the factory (Yes New bikes that never sold) and the pipes are hard against the frame., mudguards never look perfectly centered over wheels, "Incorrect bolts" compared to the parts book etc...
Remember guys, Dont always blame the shops, these bike's weren't always built perfectly with the attention to detail that we put in to them now :)
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Tomcat on 23.01. 2019 06:00
I re-use the old engine pipes after a rebuild to save blueing up the new ones. Perhaps this could buy you some time?
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 23.01. 2019 08:34
Well the thing is, Josef is here on 21st March for a party at which (rashly I admit) I have promised to hand the bike over in showroom condition. His daughter is coming too, and friends from London etc. Air tickets have already been bought. If I say to him about the pipes he will say it’s okay don’t worry but I don’t want to put him in that position. So I’m going over to S&T in Yate to see what they can do with braze filling and replating the old pipes. Perhaps they can slip the work in as an extension to the (extensive) work they have already done.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 23.01. 2019 08:55
My new pipes blued during the running in period. Are you ready to start the engine? If so, I suggest using the old pipes for a while before getting them plated.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RDfella on 23.01. 2019 11:35
Sounds to me that tweaking those new pipes is the best option. Can't understand why you couldn't do that when you tried - my A10 pipes were Armours and needed a slight tweak (had to tighten the bend a fraction if I recall) - had no problem doing it on my own.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 23.01. 2019 11:50
Yes Ian, interestingly the old pipes are very blue already, so I'll do that. It doesn't look as if I'll be able to get them plated in a reasonable time and the other platers I rang prefer not to touch exhaust pipes anyway due to the contamination risk.

I bought a pair from Feked who told me they get them made from their own pattern and assured me that they are not patterned on the Armours pipes. Not directly anyway. Greg from Feked could not explain why they list them as being for the plunger form 1952 onward. Josef's is a 1951 bike. Will that make a difference?

Then I rang Burton Bike Bits and learned their "Wassell" supplier is not the well known wholesaler but an independent manufacturer. I'm trying to call Feked now - no point in them sending more pipes if its from BBB's supplier.

Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 23.01. 2019 12:04
Sounds to me that tweaking those new pipes is the best option. Can't understand why you couldn't do that when you tried - my A10 pipes were Armours and needed a slight tweak (had to tighten the bend a fraction if I recall) - had no problem doing it on my own.

RD you must be a strong bloke. I did try really hard to bend it. I got some thick walled steel scaffolding pole which fitted closely inside the pipe as a mandrel, put the pole in a massive Swindens vice attached to a 200kg bench and pulled with all my might, with a foot braced against the vice. No yield, it sprang back every time. So I got a friend to help. He couldn't shift it either.  Incidentally the Armours pipes are bent too tight, they need unbending a bit. Strange to hear you put an extra bend in yours, I don't think they have changed the pattern.....
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RichardL on 23.01. 2019 12:08
Sounds to me that tweaking those new pipes is the best option. Can't understand why you couldn't do that when you tried - my A10 pipes were Armours and needed a slight tweak (had to tighten the bend a fraction if I recall) - had no problem doing it on my own.

When my new left-side pipe just wouldn't stay in the port it was clear to me the sweep was too great a radius. With no good option to return the parts (about a
year between purchase and install), I decided to have a local exhaust shop give it A tweak. I knew their bender would not be the correct radius, but worth the risk, versus sh*t canning. The result is in the picture, seen just behind the cush-nut dome. As far as I know, no one has ever noticed it, certainly haven't mentioned it. I guess the secret's out now. *smile*

Richard L.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 23.01. 2019 16:07
...As far as I know, no one has ever noticed it, certainly haven't mentioned it. I guess the secret's out now. *smile*
Really Richard, the whole motorbike is ruined! I'll take it off your hands if you pay me a few dollars.  ;)
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: muskrat on 23.01. 2019 18:52
G'day Steve. I feel your pain.
The problem with bending a pipe with a exhaust pipe bender is it reduces the diameter. To do it properly the pipe needs to be filled and hard packed with dry sand and plugged each end. Then usually with heat they can bend without deforming. Problem is the chrome will suffer.
Your pipes need to be "un-bent" a bit where they enter the head.
Strange how they sell A7/10 pipes when the A10 ex port is 1/2" higher in the frame so the pipes need to be that much taller.
My A7 plunger silencers (stainless made by Overlander 35 years ago) just touch the frame. Never really worried about it.
Cheers
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RDfella on 23.01. 2019 19:00
Steverat - only remember the bend was slightly out - can't now recall whether it was too tight or the opposite - was thinking it needed tightening but could well be wrong. Dunno about strength - getting on a bit now and nowhere as strong as I used to be. It's only a fraction required and wasn't unduly difficult - jut a good heave ho. No good leaning on it, you need to take it by surprise.
There really is no room for error on those pipes, especially the LH one, where the kink could afford to be slightly further back. As I mused a couple of posts ago, I thought there were different shaped bends according to year. As getting a good fit appears to be not unusual, I believe Feked claim their pipes are slightly different and effectively a one-size-fits-all.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 23.01. 2019 21:33
Feked are sending me a pair too so we shall see!
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: berger on 23.01. 2019 23:08
o stevie boy the pipes, the pipes are calling- from glen to glen and round the bend again *shh*
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Swarfcut on 24.01. 2019 12:26
  The more you think about these pipes, the more of a conundrum it becomes.  As musky says there must be a theoretical difference in overall height between A7 and A10 pipes to account for the different barrel heights.

  Then we have the difference between early small fin heads and the later wide fin variants. We assume ( and hope)  the ports are in the same place, as the parts list shows the same pipes for early and later heads but without one head of each handy to compare, who knows?

  Then left and right pipes, making a possible 4 different pipes in all.  One size fit all, Sir. Yeah.....too right.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 25.01. 2019 02:24
G'day Steve. I feel your pain.
The problem with bending a pipe with a exhaust pipe bender is it reduces the diameter. To do it properly the pipe needs to be filled and hard packed with dry sand and plugged each end. Then usually with heat they can bend without deforming. Problem is the chrome will suffer.
Your pipes need to be "un-bent" a bit where they enter the head.
Strange how they sell A7/10 pipes when the A10 ex port is 1/2" higher in the frame so the pipes need to be that much taller.
My A7 plunger silencers (stainless made by Overlander 35 years ago) just touch the frame. Never really worried about it.
Cheers

Thanks for your sympathy Musky. I am soothed. The Feked product (code F84-pair) is for plunger A10 only, should be okay. I was only slightly worried that it’s for ‘52 not ‘51 - anyone know the difference between the years?

It’s not just the silencer touch that bugs me - the Armours and BBB pipes also tend to stick out at the side at the front whereas the old BSA’s are nicely tucked in behind the line of the timing and primary chain covers. Armours were really sweet about taking the pipes back, I sent them yesterday. I’m keeping the BBBs until the Fekeds arrive, to compare. The Fekeds are coming later today, please keep your fingers crossed for me!
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: JulianS on 25.01. 2019 10:19
I think the plunger A10 exhaust pipes were the same for all models all years.

The 1950 all model parts book (I posted a copy last year and it can be accessed under "Service literature" gives the off side pipe as 67 2720 and nearside pipes as 67 2722.

The 1951/52 all models parts book, also posted, gives the same part numbers.

Look at the 1949-53 A series book and 1954-57 A series book, posted by Sluggo, and the pipes are still listed under the same part numbers.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 26.01. 2019 06:03
I think the plunger A10 exhaust pipes were the same for all models all years.

The 1950 all model parts book (I posted a copy last year and it can be accessed under "Service literature" gives the off side pipe as 67 2720 and nearside pipes as 67 2722.

The 1951/52 all models parts book, also posted, gives the same part numbers.

Look at the 1949-53 A series book and 1954-57 A series book, posted by Sluggo, and the pipes are still listed under the same part numbers.

Thanks for the research Julian. Unsurprisingly the Fekeds exhibit similar qualities to the others. They all have this double curve in the downpipe and run out to the side before tucking back in too hard at the back making it difficult to get the silencer on without frame tube touching. It seems that has to do with the method for bending them up, one of you suggested that curves in modern pipes can only be done to a fixed radius, though none of the suppliers has confirmed that. The BBB is the best of the bunch for me, and we’ll be keeping those. Josef will also be taking the old BSA pipes back with him, just in case...
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 26.01. 2019 11:45
Bugger! I really hoped the Fecked ones would be OK. It sounds as though you will be able to use the BBB ones, albeit with silencers touching the frame.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: muskrat on 26.01. 2019 11:57
I think the whole problem is the original pipes were a continuous multi radius bend. All after market pipes have two bends with a straight section in between. Finding original pipes is like rockinghorse poo. So we're stuck with draft horse sh!t.
Cheers
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RDfella on 26.01. 2019 17:00
So none of the suppliers' pipes fitted exactly. Seems to me there is something we should be aware of here before we slag off this or that supplier, and that's virtually all pattern parts (exhaust or otherwise) will need adjustment of some sort. Heck, I'd bet even NOS might not fit exactly. No two bikes are exactly the same; maybe the exhaust port has been bored slightly off, or maybe the frame / engine mountings are a fraction out - it doesn't take much for the A series pipes to be out somewhere. Albeit it's swing arm, I don't reckon the Armours pipes look too bad on my GF. The LHS one needed a slight tweak, but otherwise I'm satisfied.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 26.01. 2019 17:25
RD, they look great. When did Armours make those? They are different, much more like the OEM.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: RDfella on 26.01. 2019 17:34
Steverat - got them about nine months ago.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Billybream on 26.01. 2019 19:47
Another satisfied Armour's customer, both exhaust and silencers in stainless steel and great quality and fit. Fitted over 7 years ago and polish up great with no discoloration.
Only issue was crack to one of the silencer hanging brackets after 2 or 3 years use.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 31.01. 2019 01:00
A final word, Armours were really good and refunded all my purchase cost, despite the purchase being 3 months ago. Feked sent me pipes with the assurance that they would refund, theirs have gone back too but I have yet to hear from them. Burton Bike Bits had the best fitting new pipes which I have fitted to the bike even though there is a slight silencer touch. I had to adjust the brackets by twisting and unbending them a bit, and putting 1/2" spacers under them.

Josef will be taking the old BSA pipes back with him to Germany, just in case he likes them better. They fit like a glove, but are a bit the worse for wear. S+T were happy to rework them but it would have been expensive (over £200 just for replating). They could also fill the dents with braze before chroming, but that would make it even dearer and they say there is a risk that porosity in the braze can show up as pitting in the chromed surface. Also (my observation) the BSA pipes are made from much lighter gauge material so I think they would be more susceptible to blueing.

I've learned a bit along the way, the pipes have been on and off the bike so many times I can say I know the differences in some detail - enough to confirm that they were made and mastered by different people. But I have not got to the bottom of why they all change the drop from one sweeping curve to two curves and a straight bit. I have spoken to all three firms in some detail but have not been able to speak with the people who make the jigs.

If anyone wants to know more detail I am happy to share on a personal basis, but I dont want to expose it in open forum.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: cyclobutch on 31.01. 2019 07:31
The pipes I bought from Armours didn't fit in the exhaust ports. They told me to grind out my ports.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Swarfcut on 31.01. 2019 08:30
Steve.. Well done with persevering with this at times frustrating situation. On this occasion all of your named suppliers can be congratulated on their customer service. When the dust finally settles, Josef will have a great bike, and you together with all forum members will have learnt a lot.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 31.01. 2019 10:21
The pipes I bought from Armours didn't fit in the exhaust ports. They told me to grind out my ports.
So you did. Am I right?
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Greybeard on 31.01. 2019 10:22
Steve.. Well done with persevering with this at times frustrating situation. On this occasion all of your named suppliers can be congratulated on their customer service. When the dust finally settles, Josef will have a great bike, and you together with all forum members will have learnt a lot.

 Swarfy.
Agreed, but this thread is rather depressing.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 31.01. 2019 13:56
I think the whole problem is the original pipes were a continuous multi radius bend. All after market pipes have two bends with a straight section in between. Finding original pipes is like rockinghorse poo. So we're stuck with draft horse sh!t.
Cheers

Which is why I get my pipes from Overlander as Barry bends them on a 3 axis mandrel bender so they are continuous bends.
Excellent work when you can get him to do it.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: AdrianJ on 05.02. 2019 23:41
I've just read this thread and it's depressing me. I bought siamese pipes for my '53 plunger A10 over 12 months ago from Armours. They were very helpful in making a set. Unfortunately I haven't tried to fit them yet. They should be going on in the next 2 weeks. As far as I am aware they are the only people who make siamese pipes for this model. I just hope they fit.
Adrian.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: Steverat on 06.02. 2019 06:15
Oh dear Adrian, I didn’t set out to depress you and I’m sorry if that was the result. Perhaps you can draw some comfort from the knowledge that they (the suppliers) are supportive. Armours in particular did not quibble about refund even though my pipes were over 3 months old.
Title: Re: Interfering silencers
Post by: AdrianJ on 06.02. 2019 07:54
Thanks Steve,  they've been very helpful so far. I'll get over it.
I remember the siamese pipes on my old swiniging arm flash were a b***r to fit.🙂
Just got to time the ignition and put the head on to find out.
Adrian.