The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical (topic titles must be descriptive) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Steverat on 20.02. 2019 14:17

Title: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 20.02. 2019 14:17
Josef's bike is up together now, looking fairly tidy.
It started second kick.
But white oil smoke! And so much of it! Its a well-filled wet sump, on taking the sump plate off, nearly 400cc fell out. I put it down to my over-enthusiastic hand pumping the largely new engine before starting (plugs out, top gear and rolling the back wheel forward by hand to get oil into the engine). Sure enough on restart - no smoke. But only for a couple of minutes, then  back it comes, mainly from the right hand side too. The scavenge side is working, oil is streaming back into the tank, but I'm thinking either

- its not strong enough
- the anti wet sump valve in the crankcase isnt working.

All this in an engine which has a new SRM oil pump, carefully fitted with the SRM gasket.
Obviously the timing cover's got to come off. But when I'm staring at the new pump and theres no obvious fitting mistake, what else shall I do? Its got a new timing side main bearing, new big ends. The inner anti-syphon valve is in there, I felt it with a matchstick before putting the oil pump on. Is the SRM pump just belting too much oil into the engine? And surely it shouldn't be leaking oil into the crankcases when stationary?
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: bsa-bill on 20.02. 2019 16:13
Quote
Is the SRM pump just belting too much oil into the engine?

If it is it should also be belting it back through the return to the oil tank (return side should have more capacity than feed side),  no offence intended (most of us here are human and commit stuff we'd like no one to know about) but check the  gauze on the sump plate, the hole for the return pipe to intrude into is not symmetrically sited so could partially block the return
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 20.02. 2019 16:43
Steve...Well done, looks rather good!!!  Run the speedo cable on the outside of the exhaust pipe  lower bracket, and secure it away from the hot pipe...melted outers leak oil. Looks to be enough slack.

 Now, in an effort to cheer you up, and  put things to rights.

  Before you put the hammer to it, just a few things to consider.  With the engine running, if the oil tank level stays more or less the same, then flow and return are balanced, and the system is doing what it should.  Oil level constantly falling with the engine running is a leak on the pressure side, possible but unlikely, unless something major amiss, overwhelming the scavenge capacity. Or a restricted return, eg a kink or blockage in the pipes or an air leak between the sump ball valve and the pump, anything meaning the pump cannot scavenge  100%.

    Oil leaving the tank into the sump over time while the bike is unused is normal, as the little anti wet sump valve in the crankcase is at best rarely a 100% seal. In daily use this is of no consequence, but a pain on bikes left standing. With the engine running, oil pressure holds this valve open to allow oil flow. It only closes to seal with the engine stopped, and stop gravity fed oil flowing down through the pump, and into the sump via the bearings.

 Considering the oil return, if you have a magnetic sump plate, is the magnet restricting the movement of the sump ball valve? Is this valve working OK?

 Oil flow back to the tank will vary from a constant high velocity stream to a regular low volume gobbing, depending on engine speed and return oil volume. Is the oil in there the right stuff, not some of your modern  thin 5W30?

  Worth checking the pressure regulating valve, PRV. The ball, seat and spring obviously need to be up to the job.  Bear in mind the piston rings and bore  will need a little bit of use to bed in and seal.  If the oil level stays OK with the engine running, then a bit of use could be all you need.  I would get the lubrication system sorted first before worrying about the fine detail of a bit of smoke from a new rebuild.

  If you do decide to take off the timing cover, pressure feed the timing bush from the PRV oilway, look for a leak between the outside of the bush and crankcase. Very unlikely, but possible as this joint is subject to oil pressure.

 All this assumes the bearings are running at the correct clearances.....and you did replace those sludge trap plugs! No, only joking.

   If the tank empties significantly over a short time, when left standing, yes, the anti wet sump valve isn't working. The quick fix is a tap in the supply line, linked to the ignition to prevent accidental dry starts, or a trip down memory lane to revisit all the hard work you did a few short weeks ago to strip, clean and replace that pesky little valve.  Was that a four lettered word?


 Swarfy.

 Additional..The marked oil level on the tank looks a bit low. Have you filled it to the published oil capacity?.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Greybeard on 20.02. 2019 16:59
How much running has it had? You should not leave the engine running for long at this stage; take it for a ride. You may find that the smoke will clear.

Bike looks lush!

The front brake drum lever is not at the best angle.


Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 20.02. 2019 20:02
Hi All
Mysteries of the internet/ the reply I sent earlier has gotten lost in transit  *conf*

Steverat,
Did you drain the sump after the second running to see if oil is accumulating there?
Are the rocker oil feed bolts drilled the correct size? 3/64in.
Already mentioned is a restriction in the return line, and check the oil tank breather is clear
Check to see if there's oil in the offending cylinder,
If both look near enough the same oil wise, remove the offending side exhaust pipe and see if oil is leaking down the guide, Head flooding with oil ???
The last suggestion is the one you don't want to hear ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a broken piston ring  *eek*

If the return side is working properly it should clear any oil the feed side can deliver,
Unless there is a massive gravity leak on the feed side

Very little oil should leak through the new pump
It might be worth leaving the timing cover off overnight with an empty tray underneath in a bid to find leaks?

John
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 20.02. 2019 20:49
Hi All
Mysteries of the internet/ the reply I sent earlier has gotten lost in transit  *conf*

Steverat,
Did you drain the sump after the second running to see if oil is accumulating there?
Are the rocker oil feed bolts drilled the correct size? 3/64in.
Already mentioned is a restriction in the return line, and check the oil tank breather is clear
Check to see if there's oil in the offending cylinder,
If both look near enough the same oil wise, remove the offending side exhaust pipe and see if oil is leaking down the guide, Head flooding with oil ???
The last suggestion is the one you don't want to hear ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a broken piston ring  *eek*

If the return side is working properly it should clear any oil the feed side can deliver,
Unless there is a massive gravity leak on the feed side

Very little oil should leak through the new pump
It might be worth leaving the timing cover off overnight with an empty tray underneath in a bid to find leaks?

John

Thanks guys. Yes the rocker feed bolts have the tiny holes. I'll try these things.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 21.02. 2019 01:20
I have not been to the pub *beer*, Steverat I remember you got some NOS hepolite rings. I have a thing about rings after being stung by the famous SRM with some crappy ones that turned out to be causing my oil burning problems after my rebuild *rant* *rant* *rant* *problem* *pull hair out* *bash* ::hh::. this is when I found out there was so much crap being made that wasn't fit for purpose . I hope this isn't your problem but can you remember if they were all marked TOP etc and came with fitting instructions as I have found with all good rings that haven't created a problem- -- hope you find an easier solution to your problem than I did, soon be pub time *beer*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 21.02. 2019 06:04
I have not been to the pub *beer*, Steverat I remember you got some NOS hepolite rings. I have a thing about rings after being stung by the famous SRM with some crappy ones that turned out to be causing my oil burning problems after my rebuild *rant* *rant* *rant* *problem* *pull hair out* *bash* ::hh::. this is when I found out there was so much crap being made that wasn't fit for purpose . I hope this isn't your problem but can you remember if they were all marked TOP etc and came with fitting instructions as I have found with all good rings that haven't created a problem- -- hope you find an easier solution to your problem than I did, soon be pub time *beer*

Keith I hope so too but how will I be able to tell if they are at fault? No there was no top side on the comp rings but they did come in an old Hepolite packet (not a repro one) with the usual instructions.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 21.02. 2019 15:05
well I think the answer to that steve is when you know the oil isn't coming down the valve guides and the pump is doing its job, ie getting bubbles in the return intermittently with oil flow. you could get away with starving the top [rockers] and seeing if there's a difference , mine was so bad from first start up I knew right away I needed to strip it. I put about  20 miles in and then bit the bullet, I marking blued the bores very lightly and pushed the rings through and found them shaped like 50p pieces and they would never have bedded in, that's when I bought the gandinis and pushed them through the bores and got uniform blue pick up ,fitted them and bobs ya uncle --- perfect *smile*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 21.02. 2019 20:30
well I think the answer to that steve is when you know the oil isn't coming down the valve guides and the pump is doing its job, ie getting bubbles in the return intermittently with oil flow. you could get away with starving the top [rockers] and seeing if there's a difference , mine was so bad from first start up I knew right away I needed to strip it. I put about  20 miles in and then bit the bullet, I marking blued the bores very lightly and pushed the rings through and found them shaped like 50p pieces and they would never have bedded in, that's when I bought the gandinis and pushed them through the bores and got uniform blue pick up ,fitted them and bobs ya uncle --- perfect *smile*

Dont think it can be that, compression  is very good.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 21.02. 2019 20:36
Hi All
Mysteries of the internet/ the reply I sent earlier has gotten lost in transit  *conf*

Steverat,
Did you drain the sump after the second running to see if oil is accumulating there?
Are the rocker oil feed bolts drilled the correct size? 3/64in.
Already mentioned is a restriction in the return line, and check the oil tank breather is clear
Check to see if there's oil in the offending cylinder,
If both look near enough the same oil wise, remove the offending side exhaust pipe and see if oil is leaking down the guide, Head flooding with oil ???
The last suggestion is the one you don't want to hear ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a broken piston ring  *eek*

If the return side is working properly it should clear any oil the feed side can deliver,
Unless there is a massive gravity leak on the feed side

Very little oil should leak through the new pump
It might be worth leaving the timing cover off overnight with an empty tray underneath in a bid to find leaks?

John

Timing cover is off now, will leave it overnight - there is a dripping leak  but I dont think it will leak enough to put 400ml through without the motor running.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 21.02. 2019 20:46
summarising, I think it must be a delivery side leak perhaps from the PRV, overwhelming the scavenge which pumps a strong stream back to the tank but without any bubbles in it. I'm leaving it overnight to check the stationary leaks, then run again tomorrow, maybe with my spare PRV. Maybe the PRV spring is tired or the washer too thick?
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 21.02. 2019 22:29
I would have matched the srm pump with the srm relief valve  *beer*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 21.02. 2019 23:06
I would have matched the srm pump with the srm relief valve  *beer*
Yes but its not in the budget
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 21.02. 2019 23:15
Hi Steverat,
Quote
I think it must be a delivery side leak perhaps from the PRV, overwhelming the scavenge which pumps a strong stream back to the tank but without any bubbles in it.

As I said earlier this is most unlikely to happen due to the greater capacity of the return side of the pump
The only way its possible is if the combination of the delivery and rocker feed  is greater than the return capacity

When You go back to the bike, drain the sump before you run it again, then when it starts to smoke stop and drain the sump. measure the amount and report back.

You could try removing the rubber connection on the return line and add a temporary flexible tube from the engine return pipe  to the oil tank filler hole bypassing the return oil connection to the tank,
This will remove the restriction at the top of the standpipe (and the rocker feed) to see if this is the cause of a (maybe) problem caused by increased oil flow from the new pump

John
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 21.02. 2019 23:35
Hi Steverat,
Quote
I think it must be a delivery side leak perhaps from the PRV, overwhelming the scavenge which pumps a strong stream back to the tank but without any bubbles in it.

As I said earlier this is most unlikely to happen due to the greater capacity of the return side of the pump
The only way its possible is if the combination of the delivery and rocker feed  is greater than the return capacity

When You go back to the bike, drain the sump before you run it again, then when it starts to smoke stop and drain the sump. measure the amount and report back.

You could try removing the rubber connection on the return line and add a temporary flexible tube from the engine return pipe  to the oil tank filler hole bypassing the return oil connection to the tank,
This will remove the restriction at the top of the standpipe (and the rocker feed) to see if this is the cause of a (maybe) problem caused by increased oil flow from the new pump

John

Will do John, I had thought about that. I suspect the rocker feed is not much - the restrictor hole in the rocker unrion bolts are really tiny, only 1/64". But oil is still getting up there, the rocker spindles were full of oil when I took their bolts out just now. As you say, the stand pipe orifice in the tank is a restrictor too.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 21.02. 2019 23:56
don't want to open a can o worms *eek* mine had good compression *shh* *countdown* good luck with the eliminating of possibilities of the cause *wink2*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 22.02. 2019 12:26
REPORT BACK

1. Left bike overnight with full oil tank. Timing cover and sump plate removed - little or no seepage once the surface oil had drained out of the motor. Less than 10ml over 15 hours.

2. Replaced covers, ran motor for about 1 minute during which time the white smoke started again. Removed sump plate - 150ml of oil came out.

3. Replaced covers again, ran motor with return hose replaced by a free-ended transparent plastic one. Return oil got about halfway up the hose, but the white smoke seemed to start immediately. Shut down after less than 1 minute. Sump plate removed - 100ml of oil had accumulated.

And oh by the way the hole in the top of the stand pipe in the oil tank is 7/64" diam.


Ideas please.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 22.02. 2019 15:27
Steve.. With the sump drained out it will usually take a few moments for the "new oil" to work its way down, ready for the scavenge side to start to work. This is when the return "gulps" as the pump sucks air and the small amount of oil in the pick up pipe. The scavenge side should have no problem pumping oil through your temporary hose, way above the top of the tank. Once primed it should come out like a miniature fire hose. A good steady flow is what you would expect almost immediately from a bike in regular use, on start up. Are we actually getting a good return within seconds of starting up on a cleaned out sump? Not what should happen, there should be a delay.

  If it only reached halfway up, was that the best it can do? Or did you shut it down in disgust?  Just hope SRM haven't put another set of feed gears in the return side of the pump! No that's impossible isn't it?

  We need to establish that feed and scavenge are balanced as designed, and that the oil level is maintained. If it is constantly falling that is the reason for the smoke. Too much going in, not enough coming out. If the level stays the same, the system is working fine, and the fault lies within the cylinder.

  The overnight drip test would indicate the pump and crankcase ball valve are OK, but there still maybe a major leak on the pressure side, downstream of the valve. Rather unlikely, but possible.

  The PRV is the next suspect.  Dismantle and check carefully, making sure the ball seating area is undamaged.

  Too thick a fibre washer between the inner and outer parts of the PRV will decrease the spring tension on the ball. You need a thin one, copper or aluminium.  The sealing washer crankcase to PRV thickness is not critical.

    I think you have an early engine, which has no oil feed to the cam trough. If the PRV is faulty, opening at low pressure, it will dump pressurised oil directly into the oil pump cavity, which will fill up and pass from there very quickly through the keyhole vent into the sump....a possible explanation for the rapid appearance of smoke.

 Swarfy.


 
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 22.02. 2019 19:26
Hi Steverat,
There is probably oil after gathering in the exhaust causing the smoke?
+1 on Swarfies comments
Did you look in the cylinders for oil ?
Or in the exhaust ports to see if oil is coming down the guides?
With the sump drained  it would take a minute to get  oil return

John
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 22.02. 2019 21:36
Steve.. With the sump drained out it will usually take a few moments for the "new oil" to work its way down, ready for the scavenge side to start to work. This is when the return "gulps" as the pump sucks air and the small amount of oil in the pick up pipe. The scavenge side should have no problem pumping oil through your temporary hose, way above the top of the tank. Once primed it should come out like a miniature fire hose. A good steady flow is what you would expect almost immediately from a bike in regular use, on start up. Are we actually getting a good return within seconds of starting up on a cleaned out sump? Not what should happen, there should be a delay.

  If it only reached halfway up, was that the best it can do? Or did you shut it down in disgust?  Just hope SRM haven't put another set of feed gears in the return side of the pump! No that's impossible isn't it?

  We need to establish that feed and scavenge are balanced as designed, and that the oil level is maintained. If it is constantly falling that is the reason for the smoke. Too much going in, not enough coming out. If the level stays the same, the system is working fine, and the fault lies within the cylinder.

  The overnight drip test would indicate the pump and crankcase ball valve are OK, but there still maybe a major leak on the pressure side, downstream of the valve. Rather unlikely, but possible.

  The PRV is the next suspect.  Dismantle and check carefully, making sure the ball seating area is undamaged.

  Too thick a fibre washer between the inner and outer parts of the PRV will decrease the spring tension on the ball. You need a thin one, copper or aluminium.  The sealing washer crankcase to PRV thickness is not critical.

    I think you have an early engine, which has no oil feed to the cam trough. If the PRV is faulty, opening at low pressure, it will dump pressurised oil directly into the oil pump cavity, which will fill up and pass from there very quickly through the keyhole vent into the sump....a possible explanation for the rapid appearance of smoke.

 Swarfy.
 

Swarfy,
its actually a BA10 pair of cases, datestamped '52. But I like the theory that the timing chest is spilling into the crank volume, that would explain rather neatly why the RHS cylinder smokes more than the left. However I can't find anything wrong with the PRV - except the spring feels a bit soft but so does the one out of my spare PRV. It has a 1.2mm thick fibre washer in it, maybe I'll just leave that out and seal it on th thread with PTFE tape. That will uprate it a bit.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 22.02. 2019 21:41
Hi Steverat,
There is probably oil after gathering in the exhaust causing the smoke?
+1 on Swarfies comments
Did you look in the cylinders for oil ?
Or in the exhaust ports to see if oil is coming down the guides?
With the sump drained  it would take a minute to get  oil return

John

Hi John
Cylinders looking clean inside viewed thru the plugholes, I can see the piston crowns still shiny,   but the plugs are wet with oil.
I'll try again tomorrow with my "uprated" PRV (see above) and let it run a bit longer. 
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: trevinoz on 22.02. 2019 22:49
BA10 should have the feed to the cam trough as does ZA10 & AA7.
The long stroke cases don't.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 23.02. 2019 08:36
Trev.. Very early versions of the shortstroke engine retain the basic oilways of the Longstroke design. I was well annoyed to find an internet purchase had no feed to the cam trough. It is in the shed, I'll dig it out sometime for the date and number which may be of interest to other sufferers.


  Steve.. So much for my theory. On the other hand there is an oilfeed to the back of the idler gear, via the oilway from PRV to Cam Trough, so the PRV could still be a factor. Keep an eye on the tank level, if all is well it should stay the same.

 Good luck, there are probably more than a few folks following this thread.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 23.02. 2019 09:13
Trev.. Very early versions of the shortstroke engine retain the basic oilways of the Longstroke design. I was well annoyed to find an internet purchase had no feed to the cam trough. It is in the shed, I'll dig it out sometime for the date and number which may be of interest to other sufferers.


  Steve.. So much for my theory. On the other hand there is an oilfeed to the back of the idler gear, so the PRV could still be a factor. Keep an eye on the tank level, if all is well it should stay the same.

 Good luck, there are probably more than a few folks following this thread.

 Swarfy.

Thanks Swarfy and Trev,
I'm to Shepton for a day off today, will be back on it tonight and tomorrow!
Steve
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Peter in Aus on 23.02. 2019 09:17


 Good luck, there are probably more than a few folks following this thread.

 Swarfy.

+ 1 *conf2*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Colsbeeza on 23.02. 2019 11:47
+another *conf2*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 23.02. 2019 20:05
Well I got back from Shepton and straight into the workshop.

Started with a drained crankcase. Assembled a PRV with no gasket between the spring cup and ball seating parts, in order to uprate the blow-off pressure. Instead of a gasket, I used PTFE tape on the threads to seal it. The ball seating and the ball itself are in good condition, so hopefully I have dealt with possible blowoff or leakage from this point into the crankcase cavity.

Then started up with the open-ended transparent oil return line - almost immediately the scavenge was sending oil and air up the line at speed. However, exhausts still smoking - not the billowing white smoke from first run, but still smoky, - from both pipes.

Stopped after about 2 minutes and removed the sump plate. About 200ml of oil came out. So is this wet sumping (again??) or is it just transient - since the  scavenge is picking up air  as well as oil it seems plausible to say it would have cleared this on further running. But still I don't understand how it accumulated there in the short time the engine was running. How much should there be? Does anybody know?

As for the exhaust smoke - maybe there was more than one thing wrong in the first place, and I have to look at the bores. Thinking of lifting the barrels tomorrow.

The valve guides don't seem at fault, I took a pipe off and the valve stem is dry and stays dry.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 23.02. 2019 21:26
Steve...With that much oil in the sump, there should be no air in the oil being scavenged. It should be a continuous flow.
 The sump ball valve should be well within the raised gauze of the sump plate, and protrude perhaps 10-12mm below the face of the sump plate mounting, almost to the bottom of the sump plate so that it is well below the oil level.....engines stored without the plate suffer bent up scavenge pipes.

 Air in the return all the time means a leak or split in the scavenge pick up pipe.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 23.02. 2019 21:58
steve leave the sump plate loose with a good oil catching thingy under it so the oil just runs out put some splash guards round it too ;), if it still smokes you know what's next, if it doesn't something else is going on but I am pretty sure mine drains about 200 ml after stopping the engine even after seeing the bubbles in the return .edit swarfy my sucky tube end just enters the gauze and the tapered bit sits in the gauze hole so maybe 3mm below the gauze if that
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 23.02. 2019 22:31
steve leave the sump plate loose with a good oil catching thingy under it so the oil just runs out put some splash guards round it too ;), if it still smokes you know what's next, if it doesn't something else is going on but I am pretty sure mine drains about 200 ml after stopping the engine even after seeing the bubbles in the return .edit swarfy my sucky tube end just enters the gauze and the tapered bit sits in the gauze hole so maybe 3mm below the gauze if that

Swarfy's post sent me right back out to the workshop...yesss my sucky tube end is bent! Shall gently try to straighten it tomorrow morning, then I'll do Keith's diagnostic and  report back.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 24.02. 2019 10:04
Steve, if possible try and brace the tube against the inner crankcase wall, as you bend it down. A wooden wedge against the crank, if there is room. The tube mounting plate will act as a fulcrum, and try and pull the tube out of its location in the case as you bend the tube down.  In an ideal world the valve end should reach almost to the bottom of the sump plate, but for now as long as it enters the hole in the gauze, should be OK.

 Bergs.... The S/A design is different, just a horizontal pipe into the internal oilway back to the pump, here you are stuck with a slightly higher suckky end. The plunger tube is more of a snake.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 24.02. 2019 13:50
Steve, if possible try and brace the tube against the inner crankcase wall, as you bend it down. A wooden wedge against the crank, if there is room. The tube mounting plate will act as a fulcrum, and try and pull the tube out of its location in the case as you bend the tube down.  In an ideal world the valve end should reach almost to the bottom of the sump plate, but for now as long as it enters the hole in the gauze, should be OK.

 Bergs.... The S/A design is different, just a horizontal pipe into the internal oilway back to the pump, here you are stuck with a slightly higher suckky end. The plunger tube is more of a snake.

 Swarfy.

I managed to bend the pickup (sucky) tube end down with a thick walled tube which I counterbore 7/16” so it just slipped over the end of the pickup. Looks good.

But that’s where the fun stopped. Exhaust still oily so I did Keith’s experiment. No improvement. Okay so now we know it’s oil from the bores. Stripped top end off, bores were full of oil but no oil wetting on the valve stems. Must be the rings/piston? Rings are still in one piece and the pistons show no sign of seizures or heavy bearing. No play in the big ends. What now? Get the engine specialists to inspect in more detail?
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 24.02. 2019 14:18
steverat you need to clean up the rings and bores , smear a touch of engineers blue on the rings or in the bores insert rings one at a time and push them through the bores using the piston crown , then carefully inspect to see how the blue ends up marking the bores or rings, not very good at explaining this but when I did mine I could see all the hit and miss places when my crappy rings were doing the same as yours are. very frustrating when you get parts that are dustbin worthy. I did the same with the new rings and could see straight away the difference in marking blue covered area, after fitting the gandinis everything was ok. ps I don't have anything to do with Gandini rings but by ek they are proper.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Black Sheep on 24.02. 2019 15:08
A compression test with dry bores vs oily (as in piston crowns covered in oil) bores would give a fair indication of rings sealing or not. Very unscientifically, I would be tempted to try running with the original oil pump in place of the SRM one to see if the problem persists. It is a variable that has changed so perhaps worth a check.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 24.02. 2019 15:46
mine has srm oil pump and with good rings all is ok --- I am sticking at ITS THE RINGS! *beer* *bash* they come  in fancy convincing packages or in my case a plastic bag [from srm] and they are no good. the oil scrapers I had were like 50p pieces and there are lots about *eek* edit I took everything to gags at Nottingham and they agreed I had bought a load of crap , it was at their shop where they let me do the marking blue trick with the gandinis and the difference was amazing -- so they went in the engine and no more oil burn or neat oil on the piston crowns
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 24.02. 2019 15:55
  Steve, what a bummer.  Like bergs says, looks to be the rings, and  oil on the piston crowns is the source of the smoke.

    Can't remember if you have had the barrel bored or just replaced the rings. Either way the final stage is to hone the bore. With a rebore, this knocks off the peaks of what is in effect a fine internal thread. If you just replaced the rings, the bore still needs to be roughed up to remove the surface glaze, otherwise the rings will never seal.

 So, a few things about piston rings. Assuming you have the right rings for the bore, the top ring  has slight variants, and will be either plain, or a barrel profile. These can fit either way up. Some sets have a groove round the top to clear the wear ridge at the top of the worn bore. Another sort you may find is a "tapered periphery ring", where the ring diameter increases  from the top to the bottom of the ring. Here the narrower part goes to the top. Very hard to tell by eye. so these rings will be marked "top"

 Middle ring, can be plane, barrel, tapered periphery as before, or a type with a circular groove round the outside, like a little hook in profile. This is a Napier ring. fitted with the groove to the bottom.

  The side clearance of rings in the piston grooves should be minimal, no more than 1-2 Thou. If the rings slop sideways in the groove, this up and down movement transfers oil  into the combustion chamber. No matter how well the rings seal radially, oil will still get by.  All the rings should be able to be pushed into their grooves below the piston lands, and be free to move in, out, and rotate round in the groove.

 The oil rings are straightforward. Make sure the drain holes  in the ring groove are clear.  If you still have the old set of rings handy, do a comparison how each fits in the bore, checking the ring gap.

 Maybe worth cleaning up the old rings and replacing them as a trial.

 Oddly enough some oil is necessary in the bore. If your carb is currently very rich, you get a situation where almost neat petrol covers the bores. Termed "Bore Wash, or Fuel Wash" long term it is detrimental to the pistons and rings, washing any lubricant off the bores.

 Really thought you had it sussed, and apologies if you are well experienced with pistons and rings.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 24.02. 2019 20:24
I shall be calling Gaggs and getting some blue tomorrow. Be in touch!
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Slymo on 24.02. 2019 20:44
Following this post with interest having posted the previous RHS Smoking post. Mine still doing the same thing despite sorting the oil pump and replacing the scraper ring on the rhs. There will be a simple explanation I just haven't worked out what it is yet.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 24.02. 2019 22:22
steve gags only repair speedos and rev counters now, they sold all their stuff to Bantam john *pull hair out* and the lord knows what he will charge for bits , I would sauce some blue and see what results you get and if its rings [which I think it is] I would do an internet search for the gandinis----[ Italian made *good3*]- burton bike bits srm etc etc but I wouldn't settle for any other make nowadays there's so much rubbish about that people can't wait to get rid of, bantam john is that busy adding to his millions££££££££ I have ended up taking stuff back , but he is always right when clearly he isn't.... hard work and i'm only 7 miles away, he is my last or never resort, right back to rings I am sure googly will sort some
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.02. 2019 10:36
Hi bergs.. All very frustrating for Steve. Just checked his progress from way back in October '18, seems he has new pistons and rings from another brand, if I understand correctly. Presume the barrel was bored to suit, but with so many variables a veritable money pit.

 See you are still on good terms with the local supplier up the big hill (not).

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 25.02. 2019 12:22
Hi bergs.. All very frustrating for Steve. Just checked his progress from way back in October '18, seems he has new pistons and rings from another brand, if I understand correctly. Presume the barrel was bored to suit, but with so many variables a veritable money pit.

 See you are still on good terms with the local supplier up the big hill (not).

 Swarfy.

Chaps,
Yes Burton Bike Bits sold me the new Taiwanese Heoplites plus a NOS pack of old Hepolite rings. They should have been slright shouldn't they? I managed to get some engineers blue this morning and Thornton's are sending me some Gandini rings - so watch out for the next report! Barrel was already bored to +040 but in good nick so I just had it honed slightly by Hurleys who are a local engine reconditioner with a good reputation.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.02. 2019 12:45
Hi Steve...Getting more mysterious.  Dealing with Thorntons means you are now on terms with THE ARISTOCRACY.  The ring width/piston groove clearance could be the factor here if both are on the wrong side of what's good. There were some figures on the forum a little while ago by Colsbeeza, September 11  2018, comparing grooves and rings.  Its in a thread on piston choice, by coincidence featuring today. But you knew that, you were part of it.  You ain't the only one in the frame for this problem.

 Keep at it.
 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 25.02. 2019 12:56
my Gandini rings are in Taiwanese pistons and they are fine *smile*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 25.02. 2019 18:06
While waiting for the promised Gandinis, I noticed the piston in the right hand side bore (the smokier of the two) is actually canted over to the nearside. I can easily get a 015 feeler down to the top ring on the offside; no chance on the nearside. Whilst not necessarily the sole problem, a bent conrod is obviously not helpful to piston ring sealing so I'm considering resetting it manually. I have done this successfully on steel conrods before now - it would be great if it works since I could avoid stripping the bottom end. I can set it with a 2 ft. steel bar, turned to fit the little end, and a bit of grunting. I weigh nearly 100kg, should be enough to bend the rod I think.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: muskrat on 25.02. 2019 19:31
G'day Steve.
It could be a bent rod or just the little end bush not in square.
I'd be a little concerned about the big end shells using your method of straightening.
Cheers
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 25.02. 2019 19:58
Hi Steve,
There you ARE  *ex* I think you have found a (maybe not the?) problem
Before you go levering on the conrod, carefully check the small end bush for being bored /reamed off square
Get hold of a pair of engineering parallels and a length of 3/4in. ground steel bar (silver steel is ideal)
The 3/4in. rod should slide though the small ends, if they are in line then the rod should pass through both ( happy days)

Rod bend can be in two planes, inline with the crank and twist

Place the parallels front to back either side of the conrod, If the piston is machined square at the bottom  it should rest evenly on both sides
Cut 4 strips of paper and place these under each contact point between piston and parallel
hold the piston down onto the paper strips with a finger of one hand in the centre
use the other hand to gently pull on the strips, when all is good the pull should be even all round
If both loose on one side then bend to correct
A trickier situation is where the strips are loose diagonally, turn the crank over so the rod is opposite angle
and check again. If the loose strips change diagonal position then the small end is twisted
When you are confident the rods / small ends are good pass the 3/4in. rod though both the small ends, if they are in line then the rod should pass through both ( happy days)
If the pistons are cutaway on the bottom, you have to rely on the gudgeon pins sitting on the parallels

Then I had a memory flash back *eek*

Last year, I was asked to look at and solve a similar issue to your  bikes on an AJS 650 twin, But it smoked on both a bit and blew oil out the breather  *????*

All the above testing proved all good, bore to piston clearance was within tolerance and new rings had been fitted a year or so before but the problem remained  *conf*
I noticed side to side rub on the pistons, at the outside on the bottom and inside nearer the top??
I set up each cylinder on parallels on the mill and Mcgyvered  a DTI onto the side of a bar held in the spindle
Testing for "squareness"  by raising and lowering the mill table in front , back and side to side
I found that both bores were "Off square"  side to side to the base by 6/7 thou  *eek*

The owner has had the bike since the early sixties and never had it rebored in his ownership even thou it was +.020 ?
A very careful setup by my rebore guy got the cylinders true on +.040

I hope the BSA problem is in the small end bushes not in the cylinder for your sake

John

Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.02. 2019 20:10
Steve...A bent rod will produce a tell tale wear pattern on the piston skirt...check the old ones first.

   If you put a straight edge up the side on the thrust or back face of the piston you will find the land is slightly smaller above the top groove. So It is not unusual to look down and see the top ring, ask anyone who has worked on an old Ford Crossflow. Folks think this is bore wear. More important is the amount of sideways rock in the piston against the bore, the old time rule of thumb for estimating bore wear.

 Don't go bending alloy rods by eye unless as a last resort . Oh yes, we all assume those pistons have been drilled OK for the pins. You could turn it round, see if it leans the same way.

 Good stuff there from ChaterLea John.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 26.02. 2019 02:37
I have been to the pub *beer* looks alright to me ,don't use brute force ,it hurts.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 26.02. 2019 17:35
Made my own mandrel to check alignment of small ends, and guess what?
Haven't got the necessary parallels but a check with a straight edge acrosss the tops of both pistons confirms they are not tilted sideways.
Also reversal of the timing side piston does not affect the "leaning in the bore" phenomenon.

I decided not to try the hand tweak after all.
The Gandinis have arrived, in a state of high excitement now as I prepare to put them in and try the engine yet again....
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 26.02. 2019 18:02
Hi Steve,
Hopefully catching you before the barrels go on  *????*
If you have a vernier caliper, measure between the cylinders top and bottom and outside to outside of the bores
again top and bottom

This will at least check they are parallel to each other  *ex*
but will not check square to the base *sad2*

John
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 26.02. 2019 20:11
Hi Steve,
Hopefully catching you before the barrels go on  *????*
If you have a vernier caliper, measure between the cylinders top and bottom and outside to outside of the bores
again top and bottom

This will at least check they are parallel to each other  *ex*
but will not check square to the base *sad2*

John

Hi John
Yes I'll do it
Thanks
Steve
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Slymo on 27.02. 2019 02:24
Really keen to see if the Gandini's make a difference. I replaced the oil scraper on the right hand side assuming that the oil from the leaking oil pump had stopped the originals (which were pretty new) from bedding in. Hasn't made the tiniest bit of difference so far I'm still producing a steady blue vapour. My plan is to put a few more hundred miles on the clock and see what gives then.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: worntorn on 27.02. 2019 02:28
Are the Gandini's cam ground?
I've read and been told that this was a problem with GPMs back in the 80s.
Back then they were machined circular, no cam grinding was done.

Glen
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 27.02. 2019 06:29
I think it’s commonly accepted that a bent or distorted alloy conrod is scrap.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 27.02. 2019 18:13
Smoke free day!!!

Yes we finally cracked it. Put the Gandini rings in, reassembled with heart in mouth, and hey presto, bike ran like a dream with NO SMOKE!

I refrained from any heroic con-rod bending exercises.

Thanks  to all of you who contributed comments and ideas. The Gandinis really are the business. I guess the other message is - watch out for Hepolite rings, even if they come in genuine NOS packaging. I will be calling the supplier tomorrow to discuss that, I'm sure they are innocent but someone along the line has packed the NOS package with rings which are wrong for the engine. Blueing up showed very heavy pressure against the bore at the ends of the rings and almost no contact at the opposing midpoint. Maybe the rings had been filed down to 71mm (70 +0.040") from something significantly bigger. The other immediately noticeable difference is the force needed to compress the ring. The Gandini compression rings close at 1400g applied radially; the so-called Hepolite NOS rings needed over 2000g because of their increased depth of section.

Josef will be pleased.

Steve
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 27.02. 2019 18:25
that's it then steve IT WAS THE RINGS loads of crap about mine blued up with high spots but the gandinis were all constant blueing----- glad you got there in the end its not fun keep taking them apart because of parts only fit for the dustbin . you deserve a *beer* *beer* *beer* *beer* *beer* *beer* *beer* *beer* *yeah* *yeah* *yeah*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 27.02. 2019 20:46
Hi Steve
Glad to hear you have given up smoking  *lol* *lol*

John
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 27.02. 2019 22:30
Hi Steve,
Hopefully catching you before the barrels go on  *????*
If you have a vernier caliper, measure between the cylinders top and bottom and outside to outside of the bores
again top and bottom

This will at least check they are parallel to each other  *ex*
but will not check square to the base *sad2*

John

Yes they are parallel
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Slymo on 27.02. 2019 22:49
Good news indeed although I feared slightly that the rings are to blame. The idea off pulling the top end down yet again doesn't hold a lot of excitement I have to admit. Moreover there is the profoundly annoying design flaw that sees me having to remove one stud from the rocker box in order to get it off the head when in frame. The B44 had the same issue so I guess they liked the gag at BSA design. Still a problem with an assignable cause is no problem at all!
S:)
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Slymo on 28.02. 2019 02:15
A couple of questions, were the Gandini scrapers iron or three piece ones? Wondering if they'll fit in my pistons with 1/8" scraper grooves or whether I'd need to open them out also where did you get them from? I also need 70.5mm.
S:)
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: mikeb on 28.02. 2019 03:54
sort of off topic but...
Quote
the profoundly annoying design flaw that sees me having to remove one stud from the rocker box
alloy head? due to thread damage, i recently extended the BSF (?) thread of that (top inlet) stud about one and a half turns so its sits lower into the rocker box and now I can wriggle it in and out while the stud is in. took a few practice fits to learn the route. Next time its out I'm going to shorten the rocker box d/s rear stud about 1/8" to make it easier again. it is (just) possible.

BTW I've enjoyed following this thread and learned a lot - well done Steve
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 28.02. 2019 04:59
A couple of questions, were the Gandini scrapers iron or three piece ones? Wondering if they'll fit in my pistons with 1/8" scraper grooves or whether I'd need to open them out also where did you get them from? I also need 70.5mm.
S:)

The Gandini scrapers are the conventional shape but I’m not sure about the material - it’s bright, unlike cast iron. They fit straight into the standard 1/8” groove. I got them from F H Thornton who you will find online, very helpful.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 28.02. 2019 05:15
sort of off topic but...
Quote
the profoundly annoying design flaw that sees me having to remove one stud from the rocker box
alloy head? due to thread damage, i recently extended the BSF (?) thread of that (top inlet) stud about one and a half turns so its sits lower into the rocker box and now I can wriggle it in and out while the stud is in. took a few practice fits to learn the route. Next time its out I'm going to shorten the rocker box d/s rear stud about 1/8" to make it easier again. it is (just) possible.

BTW I've enjoyed following this thread and learned a lot - well done Steve

Thanks for the accolade it’s my pleasure. On the stud question I adopted GB’s idea and remove the rear studs completely. Turns rocker box removal into a doddle.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Slymo on 28.02. 2019 06:04
Excellent I'll give them a go. I went to the Gandini site direct but it seems their e-commerce site is currently switched off. I nearly banged my head with my fists when I read about shortening the stud. God alone know why that never occurred to me. There is plenty of spare lengh on it. I'm not sure id go for bolting it in from underneath as threads into alloy are always a bit risky although I could do what I did to the chain case inner bolts into the crankcase that had stripped and make steel threaded sleeves and loctite them in. My big plan is to get the bike in a state where I dont have to continually remove the rocker box. But that of course is the big dream!
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 28.02. 2019 06:39
I’ll send you the part number when I finally get outa bed.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 28.02. 2019 06:44
Excellent I'll give them a go. I went to the Gandini site direct but it seems their e-commerce site is currently switched off. I nearly banged my head with my fists when I read about shortening the stud. God alone know why that never occurred to me. There is plenty of spare lengh on it. I'm not sure id go for bolting it in from underneath as threads into alloy are always a bit risky although I could do what I did to the chain case inner bolts into the crankcase that had stripped and make steel threaded sleeves and loctite them in. My big plan is to get the bike in a state where I dont have to continually remove the rocker box. But that of course is the big dream!

Here are the Gandini boxes with the part numbers on. Just to get you salivating.... Time for breakfast
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Greybeard on 28.02. 2019 09:43
Steve, just in case you don't know, the 'Hepolite' rings sold today come in a box that is printed to look like a new, old stock box with grease marks.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: JulianS on 28.02. 2019 10:30
The original Hepolite rings come in boxes like these marked with makers name and address and "made in England";
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Greybeard on 28.02. 2019 10:49
This is what new 'Hepolite' branded rings look like.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 28.02. 2019 10:50
Steve, just in case you don't know, the 'Hepolite' rings sold today come in a box that is printed to look like a new, old stock box with grease marks.
Yes I knew that, I bought a piston set like that knowingly, but with a separate box which was a genuine old Hepolite box, containing these gash rings which were sold to me as NOS.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: bsa-bill on 28.02. 2019 11:06
Many many Brand names mean little in these days of multi nationals and mega manufacturing consortium's/units whatever whose names mean absolutely zilch to the end user.
The Brand names are bought and stuck on all sorts of stuff of all sorts of quality, this coupled with very clever advertising that is designed to play on or bend your mind in all sorts of ways you are not aware of means we have to take advise from purchasers of said branded products ( like members of this Forum) dealers can help but they too have to look to supply , cost  and everything else about surviving.
In this context a faux dirty old looking package is not exactly at the height of deception, I've used them and they were/are ok but was not fooled by the package, it's just how it is these days we of a certain age have to put a nostalgic view of past brand quality to one side
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 28.02. 2019 12:02
Many many Brand names mean little in these days of multi nationals and mega manufacturing consortium's/units whatever whose names mean absolutely zilch to the end user.
The Brand names are bought and stuck on all sorts of stuff of all sorts of quality, this coupled with very clever advertising that is designed to play on or bend your mind in all sorts of ways you are not aware of means we have to take advise from purchasers of said branded products ( like members of this Forum) dealers can help but they too have to look to supply , cost  and everything else about surviving.
In this context a faux dirty old looking package is not exactly at the height of deception, I've used them and they were/are ok but was not fooled by the package, it's just how it is these days we of a certain age have to put a nostalgic view of past brand quality to one side
Well Bill, these were definitely not okay. I spoke to the supplier this morning who is unrepentant, saying they have supplied them for 30 years without mishap, and they were not even interested in looking at the rings to check the rest of their stock (they have 9 sets more on the shelf in this size) despite me making it clear I was not asking for a refund. I feel quite irritated about that. I'll try and avoid them in the future, which will be inconvenient since they often do have the parts I want.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: bsa-bill on 28.02. 2019 12:35
Quote
we have to take advise from purchasers of said branded products ( like members of this Forum)

Exactly -  so mine were ok yours were not, others will take note and buy where they think best, my point was that we cannot take a Brand  name  of the past as any guarantee of past quality 
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: duTch on 28.02. 2019 12:55

 
Quote
Quote

    we have to take advise from purchasers of said branded products ( like members of this Forum)


Exactly -  so mine were ok yours were not, others will take note and buy where they think best, my point was that we cannot take a Brand  name  of the past as any guarantee of past quality   

  Bill- I advise you to take your own advice  *conf2*;  why did you quote and then agree with yoself  *conf2*??

 Well I can rest easy knowing that by luck I have Gandini rings (maybe by default from SRM) and after ~15K miles is ok- sometimes see a hint of smoke sitting at traffic lights, but figure it may just be a bit rich- otherwise, don't look back  *smile*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 28.02. 2019 18:24
Steve   Well done for sticking at it. Now the smoke has gone, time for an appraisal of what was wrong and why.

 Simply a case of rings not sealing, but the reason for failure is something I have never experienced. I have built many engines over the years, mainly with AE or Hepolite pistons and rings, and Kolbenschmidt were another brand I used. I was intrigued how you measured the radial pressure, but more interesting was what was in the Hepolite pack. Do you think they were actually manufactured like that, or the supplier has obtained what he thinks are the correct rings in the pack but is himself a victim of fraud? The other possibility is an extremely worrying scenario. Was it a factory sealed pack?

   The fact that they were not prepared to assist you, but are happy to take your money is probably because they know that the customer is not going to take matters further when things go wrong. But we do have consumer laws if you want to go down that route. Any reputable company will have conditions of sale, and somewhere in there will be a clause concerning faulty goods.....You have bought something that did not work because of a manufacturing or packaging error.

  I  for one would like to know where I should not be making my next purchase when the time comes.

 Swarfy

 
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: mikeb on 28.02. 2019 18:58
Quote
I spoke to the supplier this morning who is unrepentant
Steve who was the supplier? not asking for slander or anything, just the facts which others can choose how to respond to.

a long time ago i did a marketing paper at uni (sorry, yes, brief flirtation with the devil) where they told us of the 3/33 rule. customers tell 3 people about a happy purchase and 33 about an unhappy one. i wonder if your supplier knows that
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 28.02. 2019 19:46
this crappy parts thing with piston rings and where they were bought is a difficult one. my crap rings came from srm who told me to fit the chrome ring at the top---- WHAT? I didn't know BSA's ever had one. the next conversation was that they would bed in!!!!!!!!! hahaha throwing neat oil into the exhaust pipes. then I went to gaggs and got the gandinis. then phoned srm and ask for my  money back for the crap rings, whilst in this conversation I mentioned the gandinis and told them they didn't come in a clear plastic bag which the srm ones did. as the conversation continued he told me he was looking at the shelf where there was a box of gandinis so I asked why they had sent me non descript crap when they could have sent me good stuff , and that I liked to ride my bike and not trailer it to shows. the outcome was that I sent the rings back , got my money back for them [they were more expensive than the gandinis] and they said they would be taking it up with their supplier . i'm just glad I didn't have to have this problem if I lived at the other parts of this planet like so many do who receive not fit for purpose parts----- RANT OVER *fight* *fight* *problem* *bash*
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 28.02. 2019 21:49
Quote
I spoke to the supplier this morning who is unrepentant
Steve who was the supplier? not asking for slander or anything, just the facts which others can choose how to respond to.

a long time ago i did a marketing paper at uni (sorry, yes, brief flirtation with the devil) where they told us of the 3/33 rule. customers tell 3 people about a happy purchase and 33 about an unhappy one. i wonder if your supplier knows that

Burton Bike Bits.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Greybeard on 01.03. 2019 09:11
Burton Bike Bits.
I bought some duff rear plunger shrouds from BBB. After a bit of resistance they agreed to take them back. I got a refund of my cost, including postage.

The worst supplier I experienced was Lightning, an expensive mistake to go to them. I'm glad they've gone pop and their business has been taken over by Draganfly.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Slymo on 02.03. 2019 00:46
Did you mean FW Thornton as I cant find an FH and FW say they can supply rings but not Gandini? I see Hastings Rings all over the place, any feedback on them?
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 02.03. 2019 02:04
Away from home at the moment will send details when I’m back on Monday
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: worntorn on 02.03. 2019 04:41
this crappy parts thing with piston rings and where they were bought is a difficult one. my crap rings came from srm who told me to fit the chrome ring at the top---- WHAT? I didn't know BSA's ever had one. the next conversation was that they would bed in!!!!!!!!! hahaha throwing neat oil into the exhaust pipes. then I went to gaggs and got the gandinis. then phoned srm and ask for my  money back for the crap rings, whilst in this conversation I mentioned the gandinis and told them they didn't come in a clear plastic bag which the srm ones did. as the conversation continued he told me he was looking at the shelf where there was a box of gandinis so I asked why they had sent me non descript crap when they could have sent me good stuff , and that I liked to ride my bike and not trailer it to shows. the outcome was that I sent the rings back , got my money back for them [they were more expensive than the gandinis] and they said they would be taking it up with their supplier . i'm just glad I didn't have to have this problem if I lived at the other parts of this planet like so many do who receive not fit for purpose parts----- RANT OVER *fight* *fight* *problem* *bash*

When I rebuilt the top end on my Rapide 15 years and 55,000 miles ago, the experts told me to throw away the supplied cast iron rings that came with the Omega low
expansion pistons. Instead they suggested fitting expensive Honda Chrome rings. I remember questioning this information, especially when I learned that the Honda rings alone would cost more than the Omega pistons with rings.
Vincents never came with low expansion pistons or Honda Chrome rings.
Original Vincents also consumed an Imperial gallon every 1500 miles when in good condition ( Riders Handbook)
 New to Vincents, I went along with the advice, sceptical as I was.

The low expansion pistons and Honda chrome rings reduced oil consumption to 8 ounces on a 2500 mile trip, in other words no adding of oil between changes.
Amazing!
At 55,000 miles there is no sign of wear in the bore, less than one thou of total taper, excellent leakdown numbers. Cast iron rings would have been dust by now and I believe the bore wear would be greater as well.
I know the chrome rings didn't work for you, but they can work incredibly well.
It may be that there are many different grades of chrome rings.

Glen
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 04.03. 2019 15:39
Did you mean FW Thornton as I cant find an FH and FW say they can supply rings but not Gandini? I see Hastings Rings all over the place, any feedback on them?
Yes its FW and they do supply Gandini, here is the proof attached.
Steve
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 04.03. 2019 15:53
AFTERMATH

Started up today and ran for much longer, about 5 minutes without smoke and unfortunately without much oil return either - until the breather was overwhelmed. Removed sump plate as per usual and over 900ml of oil dropped out which is a new record for me. So I now know I had two propblems all along, the severity of the oil pumping imbalance is made apparently worse now that the engine can run without filling the bores with oil.

Obviously the answer must be in the pipework downstream in the scavenge system - pickup and associated pipes in sump were well under the oil surface by the time it came flooding out the breather.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 04.03. 2019 18:14
Steve.. What an unexpected twist!!!!

 I am racking my brains as all possible reasons have been explored.  Just see if  the problem is cured with the rocker feed disconnected, oil fed to a catch can. This feed circuit is always adding to oil in the sump. I suspect the design capacity of the scavenge is on a bit of a knife edge, too much oil here may be just tipping the balance. Might be as simple as a blocked pipe in the tank, forcing the return oil to feed back to the sump via the rockers. Keep an eye on the tank level, don't run it dry.

  If no improvement, the scavenge side is the easiest to investigate, so this starts with the sump ball valve and ends with the tank. You are looking for obstructions, and leaks which will allow the pump to draw air instead of oil. I would have the pump off and make sure the scavenge pick up is  sealed to the crankcase as described in earlier posts. Whip the pump back plate off, just to see if all is well, scavenge gears correct, no endfloat in the chamber, no leaks on the pump, pump /crankcase gasket sealing OK, and not blocking  or obstructing any oilways. Are the holes in the new pump in precisely the right place  to accurately match your crankcase?

  If you consider there is more oil being delivered than the scavenge can return, this would indicate an oil leak in the delivery side.  See if it is possible to blow easily down the oilway to the anti wet sump valve. Probably need a low pressure airline, to lift the ball but there should be a fair resistance to air flow. No back pressure means a leak somewhere, which you will hear. If this seems OK, worth trying it with the old pump.

 Swarfy.

 

 
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: muskrat on 04.03. 2019 18:22
G'day Steve.
Also check the oil pipe adapter gasket and the dowel in position. This could also restrict return.
Cheers
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 04.03. 2019 18:57
G'day Steve.
Also check the oil pipe adapter gasket and the dowel in position. This could also restrict return.
Cheers
What dowel Musky? Oh you mean the dowel in the adaptor. That is clear.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Greybeard on 04.03. 2019 19:00
Steve, if you do take the back off the pump, be careful not to let the gears out. They appear to need to be carefully meshed from new, at least, the BSA ones do.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 04.03. 2019 19:12
Hi Steve,
Was the hole in the dump plate gauze in the correct place, ?
If the pickup pipe is obstructed by the gauze it will restrict it
If you place a large tray under the engine
and a jar of oil sitting in it with a transparent tube pushed on over the pickup pipe and into the jar
A brief run of the engine will check if the
Return pump is doing it's job
Previously I suggested bypassing the tank return pipe to remove any  restriction that might be there??

John
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 04.03. 2019 19:33
Hi Steve,
Was the hole in the dump plate gauze in the correct place, ?
If the pickup pipe is obstructed by the gauze it will restrict it
If you place a large tray under the engine
and a jar of oil sitting in it with a transparent tube pushed on over the pickup pipe and into the jar
A brief run of the engine will check if the
Return pump is doing it's job
Previously I suggested bypassing the tank return pipe to remove any  restriction that might be there??

Yes John and it pumped oil quite fast, you could see it sending air locks back in the oil too. Already blown through the standpipe in the tank, that is still clear. Now going through the scavenge line cleaning and blowing through as I go.

John
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 04.03. 2019 20:15
    Steve, the small dowel and the bolt securing the oil feed and return pipe unit should align all the holes. The gasket only fits correctly one way. The oil return pipe in the tank is the important one. The standpipe is just a vent to atmosphere.

   Chaterlea John...

    If Steve has set up the return tube extension to the pick up pipe, and it is always submerged below the oil level, there should be no air in the return. Any air indicates a pump/crankcase leak or a fault (air leak) in the scavenge pipe within the crankcase.

Your thoughts?

 GB...A timely reminder about those gears..they supposedly like to go back where they were.

 Swarfy
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: trevinoz on 04.03. 2019 20:18
Maybe a silly question, is the ball in the pick-up free? Did you prime the pick-up tube? That's two questions.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 04.03. 2019 21:53
Hi All
Muskie,
Maybe ?possibly , I suppose it might take a little running to expel any air already in there ??

Did Steve say earlier that the pickup pipe needed straightening ??

Is there a magnet in the sump plate?  That has caused me a headache !!!!!!

I'll bet the solution is a very simple one

John

Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 05.03. 2019 16:54
Gone through the scavenge line today and blown everything through with compressed air. Pleased to say it is now scavenging back to the tank.

Just the back numberplate and the front mudguard stay to do and we wil have a complete bike ready for handing over to Josef on the 22nd.

Once again many thanks to you all for your interest and help.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Topdad on 06.03. 2019 13:14
Glad that you've solved that problem ,along with many others and  can now see the winning post in sight! tell me after the A10 is handed over will you stop posting with us and indeed will Josef  be joining us ?  I hope not to the first question and yes to the second  as I've enjoyed reading your trails and tribulations but more importantly your ability to get them sorted , best of luck Bob.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 06.03. 2019 13:40
Glad that you've solved that problem ,along with many others and  can now see the winning post in sight! tell me after the A10 is handed over will you stop posting with us and indeed will Josef  be joining us ?  I hope not to the first question and yes to the second  as I've enjoyed reading your trails and tribulations but more importantly your ability to get them sorted , best of luck Bob.

Bob thank you for the unwarranted compliments. I have already recommended the webgroup to Josef, I don’t know whether he will feel confident enough to post. It’s up to him. As for me, I suppose it depends a bit on whether I get another BSA twin project. Anything out there I wonder. My favourite bike would be an early Rocket, with the single-sided “Goldie” brakes, I fancy they look a bit lighter than the later full width hub models.  Please feel free to tell me if you know of one that may become available!
Thanks again,
steve
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 06.03. 2019 16:15
Steve... Well done, you have a runner at last. Chaterlea John reckoned it was simple. I had my doubts, so  now do you have you a firm diagnosis, and were those new piston rings from Hepolite actually not the whole problem?

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 06.03. 2019 16:31
Swarfy,

Right! Well there were at least two problems and the rings were certainly one one of them. The symptoms, the methods and the solution to the rings problem are all in the thread in some detail, so if I concentrate on the second one...

... the delivery volume from the SRM pump is massive and will fill the crankcase at tickover in less than 5 minutes if left unscavenged. So if there is any weakness on the scavenge side, perhaps an airlock somewhere or (as I think in my case) a scrap of PTFE tape partially obstructing an oilway, there can be oil everywhere except the tank, and in very short order. That's about the best explanation I can give.

The lesson I have learned is to blow everything through with compressed air immediately before assembly, and be extra vigilant when using PTFE tape. I am a fan of PTFE for sealing threaded joints, and had used it on the union between oil return pipe and the tank. When going through the system with the air line I found a "tail" of the tape was actually in the pipe. It might have impeded the flow. Can't say for certain though.

Now then, anyone got a '54 Rocket for me to play with? 

Steve
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Greybeard on 06.03. 2019 18:51
Excellent job Steve. I reckon you will need a lttle lay down after this!
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 06.03. 2019 19:46
Hi Steve,
Quote
Now then, anyone got a '54 Rocket for me to play with?

Not a rocket but I think this one shouldn't take you too long  *lol* *lol*

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-Engine-And-Gearbox-1952-53-Spares-Repairs-A7/312513609967

John
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Colsbeeza on 07.03. 2019 06:17
Hi Steverat,
I followed your saga with great interest. My 1961 Golden Flash has not been ridden since 11th November, as my endurance had come to an end and I haven't wanted to face it for a while. It has been smoking from the LHS since I got it going in 2016. In November I took it on a 40 mile round trip, but after starting the next day the LHS smoked badly ( and I mean BADLY - with bluish white smoke ) after about 30 secs running - same old story.
I had new original Hepolite pistons and rings, but after the first 80 miles the smoke would not settle down, so replaced the rings with new AE Hepolite from SRM after honing the new bores etc and overhauling the head with new guides and valves (which were not great). No sign of oil leaking down the guides, but the plugs are wet and black. The only thing which throws me is that the RHS has not burnt oil at all. Everything else has been ruled out, so your experience has encouraged me to try Gandini rings.
Don't suppose you measured their dimensions did you.?? ie Ring thickness and depth.??
I will get hold of a set of Gandini rings and pull the cylinders and pistons off and have a thorough examination of both pistons, alignment etc. Seems I should also try some Engineers Blue on the Hepolites and Gandinis whilst I am at it.
Colin
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 07.03. 2019 07:42
Hi Colin

Given the amount of evidence out there about oil starvation on the drive side I think there must be a significant fault for it to be smoking so heavily on its own. Have you had the head off to take a look at the bore?

My Gandinis had about 0.0015” side clearance and ring depth slightly less than the “Hepolites”. Sorry I didn’t measure the depth exactly but I did measure the radial spreading force of the closed ring, the Gandini compression ring is 1400g and the “Hepolite” is over 2000g. I haven’t been on the road with the bike but it’s had about 20 minutes of intermittent running in the garage and can report the Gandinis are settling in, they hold compression well and there is no oil smoke.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Colsbeeza on 07.03. 2019 20:23
Thanks Steve,
Yes. When the problem was evident, the Forum advice was that I had probably glazed the bores due to long periods of idling whilst I sorted out a magneto problem. I stripped it down, honed the new bores and fitted new AE Hepolite rings from SRM. There were other problems such as gudgeons so tight that the rear of the bores was scuffed on both cylinders, and I could not rotate the pistons by hand without considerable force. I rectified all those and also had the head done up. When re-assembled, the excessive smoke continued as before.
I e-mailed FW Thornton yesterday - He replied just now to say -
"I would suggest your problem lies elsewhere. Hepolite rings are usually very good.  The Gandini rings won’t work as you’ve found out as the radial depth is too great. Best regards, Duncan Rowley
F W Thornton - “The Automotive Parts Specialists”
[/b]
So that places me back to Square 1 as far as FWT are concerned. I am not convinced yet that the rings are the problem.
I am in the process of eliminating external issues which I am not 100% happy with - carb, clutch and timing. Then I will strip it down again and study the top end in depth with the ideas presented to you by Forum members with your problem. I will leave the ring purchase until then.
Seems I will need to check the alignment and verticality (is that a new word? *roll*) of the bores, and the parallelness (ditto?).  Also the alignment of the conrods and pistons relative to the head surface. Many things to consider.
Col
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: trevinoz on 07.03. 2019 20:36
Col, what grit was used on the latest hone?
I have a barrel here which is from an engine I am currently working on and has only 500 miles on it with new Hepolite pistons and rings.
There is evidence of excessive oil burning by the deposit on the tops of the pistons. Far too much carbon for 500 miles.
I am considering having the barrel honed lightly with a coarser grit.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Colsbeeza on 07.03. 2019 21:02
Trev,
It did not seem to look like a very coarse grit, as I was only trying to remove the glaze from a couple of hours idling. The grit size was not listed on the package. The appearance after honing looked great.
It is the first motor I have ever had problems with regarding smoke.
Colin
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: berger on 07.03. 2019 22:18
I have not been to the pub, I will say it again, hepolite don't exist ----- its the RINGS swat some gandinis in and if that doesn't cure it I will send you a POSTCARD, all this micron measuring stuff is a waste of brain cell work-- lightly blue your bores and shove your HEPITITIS rings through and have a close gander at them--- its THE RINGS!!!!! rant over beer tomow *beer* *beer* edit steves gandinis coped with a crank case full of oil!!!!!
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 07.03. 2019 22:23
I must agree with Bergs, the improvement with the Gandinis was immediate and dramatic.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Colsbeeza on 08.03. 2019 05:13
Hey Berger - I have an idea.!! How about I replace the rings with Gandini's. *bright idea* *problem*
Col
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Slymo on 08.03. 2019 08:03
Let me know if you find any. FWT say they dont have them and Gandini's site doesnt respond.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 08.03. 2019 08:08
Let me know if you find any. FWT say they dont have them and Gandini's site doesnt respond.

Have you tried the contact details on the advice note which I posted last week?
Can't believe I got the last set, and even if I did, they should be prepared to order some more for you.
Steve
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Swarfcut on 08.03. 2019 09:37
bergs..  I like that HEPITITIS to describe a brand of poorly performing parts. I suppose Hepolitis would cover the mental affliction we all get when the contents of the pack just don't live up to the promise and experience you thought you would get. Could be applied to more than a few pattern parts.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Butch (cb) on 08.03. 2019 10:00
bergs..  I like that HEPITITIS to describe a brand of poorly performing parts. I suppose Hepolitis would cover the mental affliction we all get when the contents of the pack just don't live up to the promise and experience you thought you would get. Could be applied to more than a few pattern parts.

 Swarfy.

Can make for a cold dead marriage too, or so I'm told.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 08.03. 2019 12:06
I usually get my rings from Total Seal.
zgood thing is they will supply a single ring if you happen to break one.
However you must tell them exactly want you want.
+40  A 10 will mean nothing to them
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Steverat on 08.03. 2019 12:35
...and now for an embarrassment of riches. Having cast around in several directions for rings, some more have shown up. They just arrived from Denmark this morning. They are in individual wrappers in a (really) old Hepolite ring box, the top rings are Vacrom and labelled as such, the box is labelled:

Original & Hepolite Pistons
1954/7, 646cc, O.H.V.
FH Huntmaster C.R. 7.25.1
70mm/2.7559" + 040"

and on the flap:
3650/#V + 040" ARIEL TYPE

I make no claims for their authenticity nor suitability. But you are welcome to them for the price I paid plus postage, say £25 in all. First to PM me gets the set.

 
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: Slymo on 12.03. 2019 04:27
Seems I can get a set of German made ones from a parts place just around the corner. Might go with that.
Title: Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
Post by: mikeb on 12.03. 2019 05:36
apparently Cliff Bond Motor Accessories in chch have a good range too Symo, tho i haven't used them. i guess they all come from the same manufacturers.
please report back on how it works out, with the rings and the supplier