The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: RoyC on 24.06. 2019 17:22

Title: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 24.06. 2019 17:22
1959 A7ss.
What is the easiest to fit electronic ignition that I can fit to my bike ?
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 24.06. 2019 17:50
The most expensive one:  BT-H electronic magneto.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 24.06. 2019 21:23
Thanks for that.
You are not kidding about expensive, Geeeez, £774.   *help*

https://www.bt-h.biz/k2f--lucas-replica-flange-magneto-13-p.asp 
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 24.06. 2019 21:32
Do all of them have to have a coil ?
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 24.06. 2019 22:27
Ok, maybe the easiest to fit isn’t your only requirement.

Cheapest is the Wassell kit.  Works very well.  You’ll have to buy a housing to go where your magneto was and a coil.  Possibly a drive pinion too, depending what you have now.

Needs 12V, as do most kits. 

Fun, eh!
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: JulianS on 24.06. 2019 22:35
Finding somewhere to mount and how to mount the coil with a battery powered setup is one of the main problems.

There is not that much space.

Some instructions make the vague suggestion of under the tank or under the seat which does not help that much.

In my case the dual output coil used with a Boyer mark 4 is fitted in the tool box with a heat sink, they can get hot. The moulded in HT leads were too short and had to be extended with HT splicers.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: orabanda on 25.06. 2019 02:19
I am very happy with the BT-H electronic magneto.
It requires two coils to be fitted. They are very small. I fitted them under the ski slope, and routed the leads ouver the top of the rocker box.

Richard
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.06. 2019 10:00
Roy. My choice is Thorspark. It uses the existing magneto complete with the ATD or manual set up and saves the cost of the  Wassell housing. The switching unit fits neatly into the points housing, and the control unit is available in 6 or 12 volt form. The magneto armature only needs to turn, as it simply acts as a carrier. Single coil with twin HT output, dead spark, gives accurate identical timing on both cylinders.  Power requirement is low, will supposedly give a day's running on dry batteries in case of charging system failure.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: KiwiGF on 25.06. 2019 10:39
1959 A7ss.
What is the easiest to fit electronic ignition that I can fit to my bike ?

I “second” BTH, I’ve got an older version with the CDI unit fully inside, but once I got over issues with getting the timing right all I’ve had to do is polish it  *smile*
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 25.06. 2019 15:33
Roy. My choice is Thorspark. It uses the existing magneto complete with the ATD or manual set up and saves the cost of the  Wassell housing. The switching unit fits neatly into the points housing, and the control unit is available in 6 or 12 volt form. The magneto armature only needs to turn, as it simply acts as a carrier. Single coil with twin HT output, dead spark, gives accurate identical timing on both cylinders.  Power requirement is low, will supposedly give a day's running on dry batteries in case of charging system failure.

 Swarfy.
I assume that this is the one that you are referring to -  http://www.sussexmotorcycles.com/thorsparksecureonlineshop/prod_960628-Lucas-K2F-bike-has-12-volt-electrics-twin-cylinder.html 

My bike is 12 Volt.

Also found this  -   https://get.google.com/albumarchive/110323277286299979642/album/AF1QipPnuo67Vua5ddNIxOyIRd5TAP0LzVa-_7F1uuh_/AF1QipOmbQo8xAnixqNbqrutTLwavEC2jXdU6qsn1Uyy#6189063672160038834
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.06. 2019 16:05
Roy That's the one. Easy to install, no need to remove the magneto, final timing adjustment is made at the points end under running conditions with a strobe. These days with different octane fuels the good old advance 'til it pinks, back it off a bit way works fine, rather than the original stick in the hole method.

Purchase price seems expensive, but presume that is what the market is prepared to pay. Not too pricey compared with other choices which have a cheaper electronic system usually made for points based coil ignition, but need the addition of a suitable mounting body and discarding the magneto completely.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Greybeard on 25.06. 2019 17:20
The Thorspark cost about half what I paid to have my K2F overhauled!!
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 25.06. 2019 17:54
Roy That's the one. Easy to install, no need to remove the magneto, final timing adjustment is made at the points end under running conditions with a strobe.

 Swarfy.

Does the manual advance / retard still work or does it become redundant ?
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 25.06. 2019 17:54
Does the Thorspark really use the magneto bearings (held in by paper daisies) and oil seal and the old auto advance?

Don’t fancy that much.

Anyway, have you seen this weird thing?  A dummy K2F that holds a Wassell electronic trigger.  £300 + VAT.

https://www.feked.com/authentic-k2f-magneto-housing-for-electronic-ignition-systems.html (https://www.feked.com/authentic-k2f-magneto-housing-for-electronic-ignition-systems.html)

(https://www.feked.com/images/detailed/54/IMG_7951.jpg)

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0717/0717/products/WW61479_6_480x480.jpg?v=1521175041)
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Swarfcut on 25.06. 2019 18:36
Roy... Manual Advance or ATD stays as before, so no dismantling of these parts is necessary.

 TT.. You use your non sparking magneto simply as a carrier for the system, no current flows through the armature.  Yes, knackered bearings, shagged seal, full of oil, rattle version ATD, all still works.
  I reckon that dummy K2F body needs the price of your chosen electronic system to be added...I  think the £300 just gets you the housing.  Interestingly a branded Lucas Headlamp Rim is cheaper than an English made one, both featured on the Feked Site. How does that stack up? The only thing Genuine Lucas is the Lucas name, huh?

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 25.06. 2019 19:14
Roy... Manual Advance or ATD stays as before, so no dismantling of these parts is necessary.

 TT.. You use your non sparking magneto simply as a carrier for the system, no current flows through the armature.  Yes, knackered bearings, shagged seal, full of oil, rattle version ATD, all still works.
 
Swarfy.


Thanks Swarfy.

Roy.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 25.06. 2019 20:23
Yes looks like £360 inc. UK tax for the dummy magneto, £80 for the Wassell kit, dual-ended ignition coil price varies a lot.  You may have to buy a solid drive pinion.

And you have to somehow have a reliable 12V charging system.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 26.06. 2019 09:01
There is a unit designed for model aeroplanes called Runtronics.
They use a solid state amplifier to produce the voltage required for the spark and the unit is the size of a matchbox.
That is the good bit
Working out how & where to mount the hall effect trigger on an A 10 is a different story.
The local post vintage off road racers have been using them for decades to good effect.
Powered by 4 D cell NiCads they run for about 15 hours on a single charge. 
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 26.06. 2019 10:34
Roy. My choice is Thorspark. It uses the existing magneto complete with the ATD or manual set up and saves the cost of the  Wassell housing. The switching unit fits neatly into the points housing, and the control unit is available in 6 or 12 volt form. The magneto armature only needs to turn, as it simply acts as a carrier. Single coil with twin HT output, dead spark, gives accurate identical timing on both cylinders.  Power requirement is low, will supposedly give a day's running on dry batteries in case of charging system failure.

 Swarfy.


Thank you to all who chipped in with different ideas.
I am drawn to the Thorspark system, I think that I may just about be able to figure it out, probably, with a few more questions to you guys.
Can the coil part go into the toolbox or does it get too hot ?
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Klaus on 26.06. 2019 10:45
I use BT-H ignition on my racebikes, ok its not the cheap way, but it is plug and play with an easy fitment. My coils are under the tank sorry no pic available. It is a selfgenerated Systhem like the K2F with automatic advance,  so you don#t need convert to 12 Volt. You can stop turning the Magnet with a rod for easy timing and tightening the drive.

Cheers Klaus
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: JulianS on 26.06. 2019 11:06
First photo shows dual output coil in A10 tool box, you can see the size.

Mounted on a heatsink, you can see in the second photo, which is not supplied with the coil but makes it easy to mount.

With the Boyer the coil does get hot, but caused no problems after a 150 mile run one morning.

The HT leads needed lengthening with a NGK HT splicer.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 28.06. 2019 20:17
Roy... Manual Advance or ATD stays as before, so no dismantling of these parts is necessary.

 Swarfy.

I have ordered the Thorspark gismo.

I have the manual advance/retard.
When doing the timing, is the advance/retard lever set loose or tight cable?
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RDfella on 28.06. 2019 20:43
loose is normally full advance
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 28.06. 2019 22:03
loose is normally full advance
Thanks RDfella

It has to be set on full advance.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 06.07. 2019 19:52
Those of you that have fitted electronic ignition.
What did you do with the existing HT leads and brushes, did you completely remove them and somehow block the holes up, or something else ?
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: JulianS on 06.07. 2019 20:56
I shortened the HTs, taped them to the frame tube and left them in place.

It still looks like a magneto.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 22.07. 2019 17:40
Roy... Manual Advance or ATD stays as before, so no dismantling of these parts is necessary.

 Swarfy.

I have ordered the Thorspark gismo.

I have the manual advance/retard.
When doing the timing, is the advance/retard lever set loose or tight cable?

I have got it fitted.
No more misfires on the left cylinder, runs better than it's ever run.

I did have to do some modification.
The advance/retard slot was not deep enough and was not allowing the unit to seat properly in the mag.
Also had to make a 2inch washer from clear plastic packaging to stop it shorting out on the mag body.

I didn't even have to remove the clutch cover to do the timing.

Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Swarfcut on 23.07. 2019 07:21
Roy, it's good to know you have had success with your new system, but a bit galling to think if yours is typical it is marketed requiring additional shaping to fit. There are not too many variants of manual magnetos, so surely they could be made to fit straight from the box. The need to add your own insulating washer is also of interest. If it needs one, why is it not included?

 Let us know how you set it up, warts and all, and how it performs.

 Swarfy.

Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 23.07. 2019 08:15
Roy, it's good to know you have had success with your new system, but a bit galling to think if yours is typical it is marketed requiring additional shaping to fit. There are not too many variants of manual magnetos, so surely they could be made to fit straight from the box. The need to add your own insulating washer is also of interest. If it needs one, why is it not included?

 Let us know how you set it up, warts and all, and how it performs.

 Swarfy.


Swarfy,
My thoughts exactly.
Once I had figured out why it was not fitting properly, I stripped it down (only two screws) and filed it to the same as the original slip ring.
It did fire up and ran well.
Two days later it kept blowing the fuse, after checking and re-checking the wiring and still blowing fuses I took the unit out of the magneto, turned the ignition on, all ok, put the unit back into the magneto and fuse blew.
I made a two inch dia washer out of that clear plastic packaging, put it between the unit and the mag and all is now working well.

I knew that my timing was good with the points in so, set on full advance I put a piece of fag paper between the points, gently turned the rear wheel in a forward direction until i could pull the paper out and then I knew that the piston was in the correct position.
I put the rotor part into the magneto with one of the two magnets set on the mark on the pick up.
Job done.

Review  -  Not enough care taken with the manufacture of the unit, but, after a bit of finishing work, it works well and only costs £150.

Wiring diagram  -  I added an ignition light.


I hope this will be of help to other members.  *conf*
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Swarfcut on 23.07. 2019 09:48
Roy, Thanks for that resume. I wonder if Thorspark are aware of these practical difficulties with their product? Having spent your wedge, I would draw their attention to your experience. Lots of times we shrug our shoulders and put it down to just one of those things, but from their standpoint it would be a valuable insight into how their system is received in the real world, and how they can improve matters by attention to detail. The need for the insulating washer is a puzzle, unless this is a common problem solved by all purchasers just as you did. Time to tell them.

 Like the idea of a telltale warning light in the system, and the clever way of utilising the existing timing to set the piston height. Well done for cracking it, helmet time now and back on the road for you before the rains come.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 23.07. 2019 10:14
I have sent Thorspark a copy of this thread.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: unclerob on 23.07. 2019 10:48
Whenever I read a thread about electronic ignition systems I'm surprised that no one mentions Interspan....they're British made and in my experience (I bought my first one in 2007 and its still working) very reliable!
They're really made for competition use....the unit has integral batteries so doesn't actually rely on the charging system but I find they work perfectly well on road bikes too....
https://www.interspan-ignition.com/
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: RoyC on 23.07. 2019 13:04
I have taken some photos.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Thorspark on 14.08. 2019 08:20
Hi RoyC,

Thank you for your feedback.

I acknowledge and apologise for the issue about the slot which you had to file out, the one you show in the photo is not deep enough. It aligns with a peg in the magneto, and these pegs seem to be all over the place, some protrude a lot more than others. The slot is fine for the magnetos we have here, but obviously was not deep enough for yours. It is a manufacturing error on our part, as we normally make them deeper to allow for the variation in the magneto bodies mentioned. We have sold thousands of kits for the Lucas K2F, and I can assure you that your experience of having the file a bit off is not what normally happens.

You also say you made up a plastic washer because the fuse blew. This is not necessary, the kits are designed to work without such a washer. The fuse blows because there is something in the magneto protruding and touching the unit, which shouldn't be there. The answer is to have a look and find out what is touching it, and to sort it out.

I note that you mention that you stripped the unit down and re-assembled it, I would guess it is probably something to do with that which has caused the fuse to blow. If it is now working with the washer you have put in, then it will not do any harm!

Regarding the ignition timing method you have used, we would not recommend it. It is extremely inaccurate, not to say almost hit and miss, and if it has resulted in accurate ignition timing for you then you have been very lucky. I note that you have manual ignition advance, so if the timing is out you have the option of altering it manually as you use the bike, so there is leeway for error. If you have automatic advance, then it has to be set correctly. The A10 is almost a modern bike, with quite high compression and rpm, so by setting the ignition timing properly, as per the instructions with the Thorspark kit, it will run properly and pay dividends for the extra work in the long run.

You also say that your bike is now running great.  There is normally a marked improvement in running after fitting the ignition kit, so it may feel like it is running very well, compared to the previous tired magneto, but if you set the timing up properly, it may well run better still!
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: Swarfcut on 14.08. 2019 09:19
Roy. An interesting reply to your comments and problems with your Thorspark. At least the folks there have some concept of customer care, unlike some other suppliers who acquire a completely different trading reputation. Unusual to convey this feedback to your comments via an international forum, but it shows they are prepared to be open with their dealings. As a first post from a new member, perhaps we will get a full intro.
 Keep us informed of your longer term experience with the unit.

Swarfy.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: muskrat on 14.08. 2019 09:25
G'day Thorspark.  *welcome*
Thankyou for posting your response to Roy in the forum. Well done.
I have used electronic ignition (another brand) in both my A7/10's for many years and can't praise the performance difference enough. As you say they need to be timed accurately by strobe to start with then forget all about it afterwards.
I like your system hidden in the magneto but prefer one that has the advance controlled electronically as well. Steel cables and whizzing bob-weights don't cut it for me.
Cheers
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: groily on 14.08. 2019 16:34
I acknowledge and apologise for the issue about the slot which you had to file out, the one you show in the photo is not deep enough. It aligns with a peg in the magneto, and these pegs seem to be all over the place, some protrude a lot more than others. The slot is fine for the magnetos we have here, but obviously was not deep enough for yours.

Reckon that's a pretty gracious comment, and worth a clap *yeah*
The eccentric peg has quite a lot of movement to allow for fine tuning of the internal timing of the standard mag, and if it's at max distance away from the face of the cb housing, it could maybe impede fitting the Thorspark ring? (If badly set, or a home-made pin for that matter, it could impede the old camring too in some circs!)
But (if the standard peg is retained, rather than replaced with something new in the Thorspark kit - dunno myself) it is adjustable, which could explain why no problem normally arises.
The Thorsparks I've seen have fitted pretty well, and worked pretty well 'n all.
Title: Re: electronic ignition
Post by: ellis on 14.08. 2019 20:08
Well done to Thorspark for their reply. I wish more company's would do this. I hadn't heard of the company before but i have now, so i will make a note to look them up for my next electronic ignition.    *wink2*

ELLIS