The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Frame => Topic started by: Simon59 on 10.09. 2019 08:24

Title: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Simon59 on 10.09. 2019 08:24
I know that original side stands are as rare as hen’s teeth, (why?) but I would like to prop up my A10 GF restoration. I’ve read some horror stories about snapping stands and bolt on jobbies, so I wondered if anyone on here has found a reasonable, affordable solution, using the existing lug on the plunger frame? Thanks!
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Greybeard on 10.09. 2019 13:49
Simon,
I first made a prop stand, (lug already attached to frame) by modifying a Triumph one but I stayed on the lookout for a genuine prop stand. I eventually spotted one on Ebay. It was quite expensive, I can't remember what I paid, (the figure of £75 comes to mind). I have been happy with it so far, but I always worry about using it, especially if the ground level means a lot of the weight of the bike is on it.
I think I have passed the Triumph one to someone else, or you could have had it.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Greybeard on 10.09. 2019 13:55
I found this thread. Looks like I paid £45.

https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=9954.msg73229#msg73229
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: duTch on 10.09. 2019 21:42

 Like GB I used one from an OIF model A 65/50, (same as Trihards) but I run a matching front-end, so unsure how the geometry would be with a stock front-end ...I think I needed to slightly modify something but can't recall what *dunno*- maybe the slot so it swings forward a bit more
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Greybeard on 10.09. 2019 23:15
Yes, I shortened the Triumph stand and eased the stop face so it would go forward more. I also welded a circular disk on the end, to make a better foot.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Simon59 on 11.09. 2019 11:46
Thanks Guys, that's just what I wanted - practical solutions to a puzzling shortage of modern reproductions. Maybe I will start a new business in my imminent retirement, making good new stands for BSA plungers...  *smile*
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Greybeard on 11.09. 2019 12:34
Thanks Guys, that's just what I wanted - practical solutions to a puzzling shortage of modern reproductions. Maybe I will start a new business in my imminent retirement, making good new stands for BSA plungers...  *smile*
I know you are not serious, but to make good quality stands would require forgings to be made rather than the cast one's that can snap.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Simon59 on 11.09. 2019 16:14
I wasn't being too serious, and I didn't know the difference between forgings and castings, but I do now - thanks to Neil and the interweb. Every day's a school day...
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Greybeard on 11.09. 2019 17:13
I wasn't being too serious, and I didn't know the difference between forgings and castings, but I do now - thanks to Neil and the interweb. Every day's a school day...
*red*
I'm pretty certain that spanners must be forgings, hence their strength.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Sluggo on 11.09. 2019 21:03
So do you HAVE an existing lug on the frame?  Many dont.  And what condition is your lug?  Is it an original casting or forging?   I have seen some frames that appear to have never had the casting/forging and confused on the early BSAs why some have them and some clearly never did.
Then there is the clamp on versions, Both aftermarket and factory. 
On some frames either they were broken off and repaired or a previous owners creative repair, So not always the case with hey, use this side stand as it will bolt right up. (Say adapting a B25 unit single stand)

I was planning on posting on here and some other forums a side stand ID thread, as I have some mystery ones I would like to ID.  Just havent gotten around to it yet.  Staring at parts books with a magnifying glass has only yielded marginal results.

I have had decent luck with these WEN repop side stands, I have heard others complain about them and variations, But personally have been satisfied with the ones I have used.  In the past, I have used them on Nortons that didnt have side stands as well, and to prevent them coming loose, I tack weld the inner half of the clamp into place, and safety wire the bolts or loctite to prevent them coming loose.  Never snapped off the stand itself.

There is a variation that was a period accy as well.  Superiors and Ziewes and apparently highly sought after period accys.. I see crazy prices for them on ebay sometimes.  I  *eek* had thrown a few away many years ago not realizing they are in demand.  I thought they were overly heavy and cumbersome and couldnt imagine anyone wanting to use one.  How little did I know! *dunno*

But the hipsters love these things, one website that has some good examples is this guy,.,,
See: http://showandgo.blogspot.com/2009/03/zirwes-and-superior-sidestands.html

Ill attch some period advertising.  Apparently they made the mounts line up with the engine mounts, I have 2 of these and was debating listing them on eBay as I could use the money for other projects.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: coater87 on 12.09. 2019 03:01
Thanks Guys, that's just what I wanted - practical solutions to a puzzling shortage of modern reproductions. Maybe I will start a new business in my imminent retirement, making good new stands for BSA plungers...  *smile*
I know you are not serious, but to make good quality stands would require forgings to be made rather than the cast one's that can snap.

 Or how about solid steel with weldments and sculpting?
 I would buy one that looked half close compared to dumping the bike.

Lee
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Simon59 on 12.09. 2019 08:22
Interesting stuff. I confirm that I have the original lug on the frame. The bike previously had a sidecar attached from new, so I don't think a side stand was ever used (was one ever fitted?) as there's no wear on the lug which I assume was forged as part of the frame. Steel stands? We're moving into metallurgy here which is outside of my knowledge but  intriguing all the same  *smiley4*
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Swarfcut on 12.09. 2019 08:53
Simon, the brazed on sidestand lug was introduced for 1953. You should also find the grease nipples on the rear plunger lugs point backwards.....earlier models have the nipples pointing outwards, ready to grease your trouser leg.

 I would rather adapt a period part of the correct metallurgy than risk a modern pattern part made from concrete reinforcing bars sourced from recycled  Oil Tankers, half way round the World.

 Sluggo's aftermarket stands using the engine mounts look to be a better design to spread the load and reduce the leverage applied to the stand pivot.

Swarfy.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Greybeard on 12.09. 2019 08:53
...The bike previously had a sidecar attached from new, so I don't think a side stand was ever used (was one ever fitted?) as there's no wear on the lug...
Same with mine. My bike had a sidecar from new. The side-stand lug is brazed? to the frame and was unused until I fitted a stand six years ago.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Rex on 12.09. 2019 09:29

 I would rather adapt a period part of the correct metallurgy than risk a modern pattern part made from concrete reinforcing bars sourced from recycled  Oil Tankers, half way round the World.

Dead on there. I guess we've all heard the stories about snapping repro kick-starts and shade tree girder fork copies. *sad2*
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Simon59 on 12.09. 2019 10:53
So I'll keep on looking for assembly #67-4902 at a 'reasonable' price.

The other day I saw an original centre and side stand (the wrong side stand for an A10 plunger) on eBay for £500! Crazy.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Sluggo on 12.09. 2019 11:08

Dead on there. I guess we've all heard the stories about snapping repro kick-starts and shade tree girder fork copies. *sad2*
[/quote]

Okay, fair enough, Do you folks actually have some verifiable actual examples of failed parts?  I mean photos, names, dates, real world examples.   If they are out there, it should be easy to document.

"On a night before Xmas, 2018 Simon Tuftwaggle skinned his knee and dropped his Goldie due to a poor quality pattern part, here is a link to his post and a photo of the broken part"

Or is this just repeating often told tales of woe with no substance?  If its as common as suggested might want to start a thread with " Poor quality pattern parts that failed" with credible 1st person reports and documentation of the part.  IE: Snapped in half, Bent, Defective weld, Metallurgy deficiency, wrong material, didnt fit, backwards, etc etc.  As well as vendor and source.   
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Rex on 12.09. 2019 18:34
If you want date times and photo's before you believe anything about how bad Far Eastern pattern parts can be, then I guess you're out of luck, but I vouch for a snapped BSA B44 (or B50) where the pattern kick-start snapped (days after purchase) just under the "foot bit" leaving a horrendously sharp end.
I can also personally attest that pattern girder forks from India can be/are so bad that they should be marked "For display only". Instead of the correct and traditional tube and lug construction the two legs have been used to make a sand mould and some molten recycled scrap iron poured in.
So bad even the grease nipples were cast in situ in the repro, and under the lower yoke there was evidence of rough fettling using a 12" bastard file. The spindles were a slack fit and the nuts and threads were cheap metric items.
The forks and the k/s both came from Kempton.
Feel free to disbelieve if you wish, but the p*ss-poor quality of this sh*t is why original bent and worn parts command such high prices now.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Sluggo on 12.09. 2019 19:20
okay thats 2 examples, It would be helpful to actually start a thread documenting these items. Including the vendor.

But, there are decent quality parts that many people are happy with as well,  So lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I have purchased parts and was disappointed, But I also purchased parts I was exceedingly happy with.

That includes parts made by folks in the UK as well.  Casting a wide net that "All xxxxxx parts are rubbish" is about as useless as "All white people are..." or "All black people are....."

I am looking at a Ariel Red Hunter right now missing many parts, The leading gurus of the Ariel club have been pointing out viable parts sources and includes some parts made in India.
My neighbor, who is from Yorkshire, grew up in the apprentice trade and now runs a machine shop making aerospace components is what by any stretch is an expert on metallurgy, manufacturing and English motorbikes and cars.  He has purchased a number of parts from India and Asia and rejects about 10% but marvels at the acceptable quality and low costs for what he has used.

I know most of the major US parts dealers, I am well aware of their challenges in importing and supplying the Vintage bike trade and speak to them often.  We could rehash that, but would be far more useful to start a thread with actual components, vendor, and defect.
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: muskrat on 12.09. 2019 21:04
G'day Sluggo.
We must first give the vendor a chance to rectify a problem before pulling their name through the mud. Even they get dudded with inferior parts from time to time.
I bought a k/s pinion from a local supplier. It didn't fit. So I spoke to him about it. He then contacted his supplier who said "Ah yes, we supply a new bush to fit." I made my own but in a few weeks I had two new bush's in the post box.
Cheers
Title: Re: Side stand for a Plunger A10
Post by: Sluggo on 12.09. 2019 21:22
" We must first give the vendor a chance to rectify a problem before pulling their name through the mud. Even they get dudded with inferior parts from time to time."

True and fair enough.  But its tiring to hear "All parts from xxxx are rubbish"  so, useful to show where things are amiss and such.

Fuel tanks, from well known UK suppliers, to far eastern suppliers are a prime example.  I have a tank from a Scottish aluminum tank shop, and its quite nice. However I have seen credible accounts of very poor service from that very same vendor.
Same with some Indian made tanks,  And some useful reports on Norton forums for some of the tanks ordered from total junk to quite a nice product. Several people detailed the issues they had with fit and in some cases rework, No need for slander, attacks or racist rants, I still think with fair guidelines it can be a useful tool.