The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: bikerboy on 12.09. 2019 00:49

Title: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 12.09. 2019 00:49
This is a long story and it is in relation to my recently rebuilt A10 plunger frame. Not that it makes any difference but its got a large journal crank, thick flange barrels and an alloy head (A10 not A7)

I finished it a couple of months ago, regrind new shells, new bearing and bushes line bored etc etc guides valves all new the only thing not new was the pistons and rings they seemed ok and the bore measured ok, not great but ok.

Took it out done 28 miles and noticed a significant loss out of the engine breather once it got hot, I know some hate them but I fitted a wet sumping valve as it was wet sumping despite new check valve ball and spring. Unfortunately it also went on to one cylinder as something got dragged into the carb (no air filter as always)

Took the top end off again no big damage but as it was losing oil out of the breather decided on a rebore and new pistons as they were the only thing it could be. Flat top pistons not some 10:1 job.

Now the confusion starts. Started it no problem and oil circulated and pumped out of the breather at the same rate it came back to the tank. No smoke and it stopped after a few minutes so I assumed some oil had crept down to the sump despite the valve. Done 5 miles and everything cool, oil pumping round well and running fine so off I went, no sign of any more loss from the breather.

18 miles later most of the bike covered in oil and oil tank nearly empty. Was at a friends so topped up the oil and investigated. Circulating intermittently almost like a restriction in the line. Rocker feed even tho it was jubilee clipped blew the pipe off and oil pumping out at a rapid rate. Has to be a blockage in the oil tank I assumed. Tank off pipes cleaned even poked an old throttle cable down the tank from the top in case crap was in the tank return pipe. Nothing all perfectly clean and clear. Then fitted a replacement return pipe into a separate container so that I could watch the return easily.

Start it up again oil circulating nicely and again pumping out of the breather at the same rate that it is circulating. Assumed I must have broken a piston ring when fitting new pistons so compression test, all proved fine, still no sign of any smoke, spark plugs a perfect colour engine starts and runs fine.

After running for a few minutes, oil stops from breather and everything is perfect.

What the hell will cause oil to spew out at a ridiculous rate intermittently from the engine breather yet still circulate and run fine? Not only when its cold and has not been used even when it is hot and being ridden.

Pump has been tried and tested on my other A10 I only changed it to give me a tacho drive on my Super Rocket.

Oil straight 40 not that it matters.

Obviously all oilways checked and blown out during rebuild. I do not have one of the drain plug sumps with a magnet on it.

So no smoke at all, perfect starting and revving, plugs a perfect colour. I really am confused and baffled. I cant see why it would be the PRV which does have a new ball and spring anyway.

My next move is to remove the sump and leave a container under it to see if the sump is filling with oil but the tank level is not dropping, well not until it throws all the oil out of the breather its not. Anyway it cant wet sump when its being held at 50 mph for 10 miles surely?

Any suggestions would prove very well received :(
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: lillygunny on 12.09. 2019 01:37
Are you sure the oil is coming out the breather hole?
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 12.09. 2019 02:25
Positive its pipe on this plunger of mine
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: coater87 on 12.09. 2019 02:54
 Just a thought, is the vent in your oil tank working?

 Blowing lines off, oil out of the breather, i can only think that pressure is building up and looking for an escape route.

 Lee
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: duTch on 12.09. 2019 05:44

 
Quote
  Just a thought, is the vent in your oil tank working?

 Blowing lines off, oil out of the breather, i can only think that pressure is building up and looking for an escape route.

 Poking a wire up the tank vent would sort that, but taking the tank filler cap off and blowing in it will also give an indication.....or both in conjunction (saves any crap ending up in the tank)
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Klaus on 12.09. 2019 06:26
The breather is timed, are you shure the plug from the camshaftpinion is always in its hole?
Its only a suggestion, as you wrote, sometimes its all ok.

cheers Klaus
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Swarfcut on 12.09. 2019 08:08
Looks like too much oil added, and the scavenge side of the system with an intermittent fault. I would suspect an air leak or blockage in the sump pick up pipe...the welded 90 degree bend where it enters the crankcase behind the pump sometimes fractures, crack opens as motor warms up, pump sucks air instead of oil. The ball valve on the end of the pipe also needs a looky look....The ball movement on some pipes is almost zilch, restricted with a build up of carbon and other muck. The construction of this neglected component is detailed somewhere on the Forum.

 As a start, begin with the basics, tank, pipes, tank breather all clear, timed breather set up with no play, with a well sealing cork washer. With the inner cover off, check timing gears are correctly indexed and the correct ones.....Longstroke gears look the same, but timing marks slightly different, but unlikely on a motor which runs OK otherwise.  Oil pump... securing nuts tight, good gasket in place, no holes blocked, anti drain ball valve behind pump still in place. Check operation by pushing  a matchstick down the oilway and feel for a spring loaded ball.  Sump plate off, sump drained "dry", plate back on and oil tank filled with correct quantity of oil.  Start 'er up, oil should return as small gulps, changing to a good steady stream after a few moments running.  If the problem remains, the pick up pipe is number one suspect, followed by the pump. This all assumes the delivery side is working OK, but here an internal leak will overwhelm even a correctly working scavenge side.

 Look for a post "Oil suddenly coming out of the breather" what has happened is fairly common.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: muskrat on 12.09. 2019 12:14
G'day bb.
I'm thinking the scavenge pipe is the problem. As Swarfy mentioned the pipe can fracture or the ball restricts flow. The pump draws oil from the tank so oil is being deposited into the sump. The scavenge side of the pump is getting some but not all of it out till the level in the sump covers the fracture and starts scavenging normally. By this time oil is spewing out the breather.
Klaus has a good point about the timed breather. Double check it and the cork is a good size (10 to 20 thou crush).
As for blowing off the rocker feed.  *dunno* clamp not tight. Do you have a filter on the return line after the rocker feed tee off but before the tank?
Cheers
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 12.09. 2019 12:19
Hi,
Swarfy covered almost everything there
1 more , is there a magnetic drain plug in the sump plate? This can cause the ball to stick.
Also there's a pin or clip to prevent the ball being sucked up to the narrower part of the  tube, If missing the ball will block the oil

John
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: RoyC on 12.09. 2019 13:53
Hi,
Swarfy covered almost everything there
1 more , is there a magnetic drain plug in the sump plate? This can cause the ball to stick.
Also there's a pin or clip to prevent the ball being sucked up to the narrower part of the  tube, If missing the ball will block the oil

John

"I do not have one of the drain plug sumps with a magnet on it."

He does NOT have a magnet in the sump,
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 12.09. 2019 15:00
Thanks for all your comments and help just to answer a few questions.

The cork washer on the end of the camshaft is fine and the breather peg is located.

It has no oil filter fitted, the return pipe has a simple T piece in that goes off to the rocker box just before it enters the tank. I think the rocker pipe blew off when I put my finger over the return hole hoping to encourage the oil to circulate.

I have, in my own mind,  put the problem purely down to the return system to the tank but I must admit it never occurred to me that the scavenge pipe could be cracked and if it is then that would explain everything. Sticky ball yes but I never thought about a crack.

With the plunger if my memory serves me rightly the scavenge pipe is actually bolted to the inside of the crankcase, I will have to hook out another set of cases and check. If it is then its an engine strip down for sure :(

Now correct me if I am wrong but if its not just the ball sticking, which I doubt I am quite thorough on a rebuild as a rule. That pipe returns directly to the back of the oil pump so removing the pump and putting an air line on it should expose a crack particularly if I wobble the pipe a bit as I blast air into it.

Looks like it could be another weekend spent on stripping and rebuilding again :(
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Swarfcut on 12.09. 2019 16:50
Yes, the pick up pipe is bolted to the crankcase at its lower end, bolt secured with a tab washer. BSA recommended never to disturb the pipe, as back in the day it was "cemented" into the crankcase, probably with the 1950's forerunner of Loctite Bearing Fit, which should do the job today. If it's loose and wobbles, not sealed to the crankcase, could be the problem. So, a finger over the oilway behind the pump and a plastic tube over the business end and a little bit of air pressure should locate a crack in the pipe, poor seal between pipe and crankcase or a dodgy bit of welding or brazing in the construction of the pick up pipe.  If all OK, check for a sticking ball...not moving enough, or the retainer in the ball housing compromised and drawing the ball up to block the pipe, as mentioned by Chaterlea John. If it all seems in order, then the mystery continues, so although it could mean a major strip, cross fingers for some sign of an answer.

 The design is different on S/A motors....a straight pick up pipe and internal oilways drilled in the alloy crankcase. Any chance one of the big end bolts on the big journal crank has caught and flattened the pipe, or even machined a hole in it?

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: muskrat on 12.09. 2019 20:52
G'day Swarfy.
That's a good point. I didn't consider the LJ crank touching the pipe.
When I put a LJ crank into the A7SS cases I had to remove a bit off the nuts to give clearance as they hit the case. Also had to deepen the cam trough for the 357 cam.
Cheers
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: KiwiGF on 12.09. 2019 21:22
Thanks for all your comments and help just to answer a few questions.

The cork washer on the end of the camshaft is fine and the breather peg is located.

It has no oil filter fitted, the return pipe has a simple T piece in that goes off to the rocker box just before it enters the tank. I think the rocker pipe blew off when I put my finger over the return hole hoping to encourage the oil to circulate.

I have, in my own mind,  put the problem purely down to the return system to the tank but I must admit it never occurred to me that the scavenge pipe could be cracked and if it is then that would explain everything. Sticky ball yes but I never thought about a crack.

With the plunger if my memory serves me rightly the scavenge pipe is actually bolted to the inside of the crankcase, I will have to hook out another set of cases and check. If it is then its an engine strip down for sure :(

Now correct me if I am wrong but if its not just the ball sticking, which I doubt I am quite thorough on a rebuild as a rule. That pipe returns directly to the back of the oil pump so removing the pump and putting an air line on it should expose a crack particularly if I wobble the pipe a bit as I blast air into it.

Looks like it could be another weekend spent on stripping and rebuilding again :(

I’ve heard of s/a bikes where the scavenge pipe had fallen off (or was missing) without causing symptoms of wet sumping, as the oil level just rises a bit to the level of the gallery in the case, I’m not sure if this is the case with the semi unit engines but I thought it worth mentioning, before you strip it down!

It does sound like the cases are filling with oil.

I had a puzzling oil supply issue with a Honda gb500 (no supply to head/cam), I eventually worked out what was going wrong by “experimenting” with pieces of tube and bottles to hold supply/return oil, this may be an option for you before you strip it down  *dunno*

Edit...I just re read yr 1st post and oil was coming out of the head oil feed “fast” when you had the oil coming out the breather, no way it should ever be “fast” ....the oil supply to the valves on my bike is a dribble at best. That indicates the cause is probably a blockage (intermittent?) between the tee to the head and the hole in the tank pipe doesn’t it?

 I think Rocket Racer had this issue (during a rally) and the blockage was cleared quite easily.





Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 12.09. 2019 22:14
Thanks for your ideas lads regarding the crank but I have run an LJ in plunger cases for years and feel sure I would have noticed anything like that but I will check it of course.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Swarfcut on 13.09. 2019 07:45
BB...Here's me thinking you know nothing about these motors... turns out you are well experienced and with what looks like a choice when it comes to replacement parts. Apologies if I have stated the obvious, but it is always difficult to know what knowledge, experience and skills the fella with the problem has. Looks as if despite your engine building skill, it has defeated you (and a good few others) for the time being.

 Stick with the KiWi....a re visit of the oil lines and tank is quick and easy.....a good pressure on the return side of the pump would indicate  reasonable pick up and a good pump.



KiWi....Working OK without the pipe is possible on the S/A engine, the oilway is just above sump plate level. The plunger pipe works its way from the sump, hugging the inner crankcase wall, so the oil would need to be up to the main bearing bush, and higher, by which time all the oil is out of the tank and being spread over the road.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 13.09. 2019 22:08
Swarfy

No problem got my first A10 (and still got it) back in 1972 when I was 16 and have had so many to bits over the years I have lost count :)

But as you know that does not mean somebody has all the answers nor does it mean that sometimes we overlook the obvious so I am always grateful for advice particularly as some people on this forum make me look like a total newbie with their technical knowledge.

I would still pit myself against anybody at fitting the rocker box tho, I definitely have that down to a fine art and can fit one in minutes :)

Probably because of the amount of times I have messed up a rebuild and needed to have the rocker box on and off 150 times lol
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Minto on 14.09. 2019 02:44

“”I would still pit myself against anybody at fitting the rocker box tho, I definitely have that down to a fine art and can fit one in minutes””

If you fancy posting some tips on this subject, or a “how to” video, I would not be offended!!!
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Gerry on 14.09. 2019 07:19
Hi Minto, If I were to pay your fare to Adelaide Australia plus accomodation and meals due you think you would be able to fit my rocker box on my 59 A10......:-) Cheers Gerry
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Minto on 14.09. 2019 09:15
Hey Gerry
That sounds great, I’ll pack my case later. I’ll see if I can talk BikerBoy into coming as well, he can show us both how it’s done. 👍😁
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: paulmbsa on 14.09. 2019 14:30
I had the same problem turned out to be the pressure release valve makes no sence but changed it and hey presto
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: RDfella on 14.09. 2019 16:42
Of all the different engines I've worked on in the last 55 + years, from lawnmowers to race cars plus marine, I've never come across an engine model with more oil issues (most of which are plain weird) than the A series. The singles use a similar system without problems, so why are the twins less reliable lubrication-wise than the weather? And let's not pretend that isn't the case, as the posts on this forum prove otherwise.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: ironhead on 14.09. 2019 23:20
Of all the different engines I've worked on in the last 55 + years, from lawnmowers to race cars plus marine, I've never come across an engine model with more oil issues (most of which are plain weird) than the A series. The singles use a similar system without problems, so why are the twins less reliable lubrication-wise than the weather? And let's not pretend that isn't the case, as the posts on this forum prove otherwise.

I recon you can point the finger directly at the R/H main bush  with oil trying to be forced through a rotating shaft with a small hole drilled in it. Most other reliable systems have a centre fed crank. Once the crank starts spinning it acts like a centrifugal pump in itself. maybe if BSA had fitted a pump with twice the volume it may have worked properly (eg auto crank & pump style). Other engines with Right hand main bush oil systems suffer as well, one that comes to mind are the AMC singles. ( try finding one without a shot bigend bearing). the difference between these & BSA singles are chalk & cheese, yet they both use roller bearings, in fact at a quick glance the AMC looks beefier.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 15.09. 2019 13:10
Minto

I can give you one tip I sometimes use

Bend the pushrod comb so that it comes down to sit on the top fin of the cylinder head. Use one of those spring steel chassis clips to slide over the fin and the comb holding it nicely in place. Make sure its one of the inlet pushrods that is high so the two exhaust rods are at at the same height.

Loosen the adjuster nuts on the tappets but do not slacken the actually tappets at all. Slip the box on and all those little rods will drop straight into those cups perfectly every time
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 13.10. 2019 23:42
Well so far no joy. Oil pipes off and all clear, return to the tank clear as a bell.

Sump off and there was too much oil in there but as the pump is tried and tested a bit confused as to why.

Scavenge pipe not blocked in any way (no magnetic bolt on it)

The only parts on this bike I have not run relatively recently are the crankcases so to me I am still thinking scavenge pipe but god knows why.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Swarfcut on 14.10. 2019 09:06
   As an indication of the oil return, try a transparent plastic pipe fitted onto the scavenge pipe dipped into oil in an oil drain pan under the open sump. A bit messy, but shows the relative balance between feed and return.  Poor pick up is a combination of obstruction, air leaks, poor seal between pump and crankcase, or just a poorly performing pump.

  Here look for a  worn, cracked body, sheared off  drive tab on scavenge gear, really badly worn or loose end plate.  Not all or any may apply to your pump. Long shot, but substituting another pump would be well worth another try before  a full strip down to change the cases.
 The PRV is an enigma, as open or shut the total volume of oil delivered is the same, whether blown off or fed under pressure to the crank bush and bearings. But experience would indicate changing the PRV can sometimes effect a cure for mysterious oil problems.

 Swarfy.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Rex on 14.10. 2019 09:41
On Tr*umph twins it's possible to test the scavenge pipe by slipping a piece of tubing over the scavenge pipe and gently sucking while blocking the oilway on the engine with your thumb.
It's a good definitive test of the pipe, so maybe it could be used here too?
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 28.10. 2019 18:04
Well I have changed everything except the PRV which looks fine.

Oil circulates perfectly but its still throwing it out of the breather when it does more than about 15 miles :(

Looks like another strip down after swapping the PRV with one of my working A10's which I dont think will cure it :(
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: edboy on 28.10. 2019 21:28
i would say the prv is very important and worth a good examine of the ball and seat. if the ball doesnt seat after the oil warms [ spring ] oil will be dumped into your crankcase and out the breather. it will ruin your big ends quickly as  they lose oil pressure.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: berger on 28.10. 2019 22:15
I once found a nasty split in a BSA prv where the ball seats. I was looking to use one on the beezer until I thought sod it your messing with the engines heart and bought srm pump and prv. I had a few and even converted one when I wanted to play about with something to test oil pressure before and after relief to cam etc. The springs and seat can never be as good as when they left the factory I couldn't believe a hard ball bearing could have such a wear mark in it but then again its getting attacked by all sorts of impurities *bash*, after all i'me bu**ered at 60  *sleepy* and some of them are even older than me, the pump and prv should be pensioned off unless put to a test and proven to be able to provide a good service *warn*
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Rocket Racer on 29.10. 2019 03:39
Thanks for all your comments and help just to answer a few questions.

The cork washer on the end of the camshaft is fine and the breather peg is located.

It has no oil filter fitted, the return pipe has a simple T piece in that goes off to the rocker box just before it enters the tank. I think the rocker pipe blew off when I put my finger over the return hole hoping to encourage the oil to circulate.

I have, in my own mind,  put the problem purely down to the return system to the tank but I must admit it never occurred to me that the scavenge pipe could be cracked and if it is then that would explain everything. Sticky ball yes but I never thought about a crack.

With the plunger if my memory serves me rightly the scavenge pipe is actually bolted to the inside of the crankcase, I will have to hook out another set of cases and check. If it is then its an engine strip down for sure :(

Now correct me if I am wrong but if its not just the ball sticking, which I doubt I am quite thorough on a rebuild as a rule. That pipe returns directly to the back of the oil pump so removing the pump and putting an air line on it should expose a crack particularly if I wobble the pipe a bit as I blast air into it.

Looks like it could be another weekend spent on stripping and rebuilding again :(

I’ve heard of s/a bikes where the scavenge pipe had fallen off (or was missing) without causing symptoms of wet sumping, as the oil level just rises a bit to the level of the gallery in the case, I’m not sure if this is the case with the semi unit engines but I thought it worth mentioning, before you strip it down!

It does sound like the cases are filling with oil.

I had a puzzling oil supply issue with a Honda gb500 (no supply to head/cam), I eventually worked out what was going wrong by “experimenting” with pieces of tube and bottles to hold supply/return oil, this may be an option for you before you strip it down  *dunno*

Edit...I just re read yr 1st post and oil was coming out of the head oil feed “fast” when you had the oil coming out the breather, no way it should ever be “fast” ....the oil supply to the valves on my bike is a dribble at best. That indicates the cause is probably a blockage (intermittent?) between the tee to the head and the hole in the tank pipe doesn’t it?

 I think Rocket Racer had this issue (during a rally) and the blockage was cleared quite easily.

Only just seen this post; I did have an intermittent oil return problem on my super rocket which seemed to be blockage related and only occured once to me then behaved. The present owner (with one in between) has replaced the original oil pump with an SRM one, had the return thoroughly cleaned and removed the oil filter on the return which was plumbed up via the tool box. That engine also has long had a bearing conversion with a centre feed. I believe its presently behaving again.

Cannot imagine the PRV likely to be related although the later A65 type plunger version far more reliable than the original ball bearing type.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: edboy on 29.10. 2019 21:44
the a65 also had an oil warning light which would be helpful as the oil is not going where it should and if low oil pressure, will knock out the mains.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 30.10. 2019 00:55
I am going for the PRV out of desperation really I would not mind so much if the oil was not circulating but its returning perfectly with enough pressure that if I block the hole in the oil tank using my finger it blows the rocker feed pipe off.

The return to the tank is constant while normally it spits a bit as the return is more powerful than the feed, but the oil pump was on my other A10 and was only changed to fit a rev counter drive so in my eyes it cant be the pump.

The only bit of guesswork left for me now is the PRV not opening/closing at the correct pressure even tho it has a new ball and spring in it and appears to operate ok.

The one thing that keeps nagging at me is the scavenge (the crankcases) as these are the only parts that are untested by me as such. I bought them off ebay I think and maybe I missed damage to the scavenge pipe or something when I put it together.

It would not be so bad but the engine starts and runs perfectly and even the rocker box does not leak so stripping it down again will be a right pain
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: berger on 30.10. 2019 01:42
do you mean you got the cases off ebay and didn't check your sucky tube? if so there may be an intermittent fault depending on revs and vibes and it could be pulling air at times and not oil when you are riding it and seem ok when its stood *conf2* *dunno2* just a thought because I haven't got a clue really and weird things like that  happen, like two strokes increasing revs when they pull excess air from a joint and you spray joint with oil or something and find where its sucking air in. I will shut up now rambling again . time for bed said zeb *sleepy* *sleepy* *sleepy*
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: muskrat on 30.10. 2019 05:21
G'day bb.
I was trying to think of a way to test the scavenge system for leaks.
Drop the sump plate and push the ball up the pipe a bit to drain any oil out. Remove the return line from the motor and with the plugs out kick her over till no oil comes out the pipe. Put rubber hose over the pipe and a finger over the scavenge pipe. Now suck on the hose and put tongue over the hole. See if it holds vacuum.
Or, put hose over scavenge pipe and block it. Then apply air pressure to the other hose and listen for any hissing. 20Lb pressure should be enough and be safe.
Cheers
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: duTch on 30.10. 2019 08:56

 
Quote
.......Or, put hose over scavenge pipe and block it. Then apply air pressure to the other hose and listen for any hissing. 20Lb pressure should be enough and be safe.......
Fairly much how I tested mine at Larry build,  but figured the ball should block it anyway( guess a bit of hose will stop splatter?)
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: muskrat on 30.10. 2019 09:01
G'day duTch.
I figured with a blocked hose it would eliminate the hiss coming from around the ball  *dunno*
Cheers
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: duTch on 30.10. 2019 09:26

 
Quote
...I figured with a blocked hose it would eliminate the hiss coming from around the ball  *dunno*.....
Fair call- I remembered I did it all before i putt the pump on too, so less oth er places to leak from.... and at same time made sure the feed side was clean and ball and spring doing their stuff
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: edboy on 30.10. 2019 19:42
hi bikerboy, i wonder if the crank gear is making good contact with the oil pump gear [ which do wear].is the crank washer missing , too much end float? if your problems started after swopping oil pumps i would go back to the old oil pump and test.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: Greybeard on 30.10. 2019 19:55
In case you don't know, the SRM PRV is a different design. It has a piston, rather than a ball. I think that Triumphs had that design. I fitted one to my bike. I do not know if that is a superior design.

https://shop.srmclassicbikes.com/product/stainless-steel-pressure-release-valve-bsatriumph-twins
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: RDfella on 30.10. 2019 20:28
Is it possible for the timed breather to create an intermittent fault?
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: chaterlea25 on 30.10. 2019 22:58
Hi RD and All,
Quote
Is it possible for the timed breather to create an intermittent fault

If the driving peg was barely engaging the breather sleeve due to either a worn casing or the driving dog not positioned correctly in the gear then Maybe??

John
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: clive1 on 31.10. 2019 19:09
with all the investigations you have done yourself and the advice from the knowledgeable guys on here,
we often look for deep issues without always checking the simple things first
we all tend to think the worst when it is your own bike
is there a chance the flexi oil pipes are swapped over from their correct position
just a thought
but our sympathies are with you
and We will get it sorted between us

Clive1
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: RDfella on 01.11. 2019 10:01
More thoughts. Seems it is intermittermently wet-sumping, causing the breather to throw out the contents of the sump. And do they!
I can think of two possibilities: the wire pin in the pickup pipe is missing, meaning the anti-drain ball can go right up and block the pipe, or the sump gauze is too fine and oil can't drain through it fast enough to get to the return suction pipe. Often wondered about the latter ever since I had a wet-sumping with oil pumping out via breather. I had already drained the sump (via the drain plug). Or so I thought. Actually I'd only drained a little and the rest was 'hiding' above the gauze, presumably held there by vacuum. I think most of the oil actually drains down through the hole the pickup pipe goes through rather than the gauze itself. My view is that the mesh supplied these days is a little too fine..
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: JulianS on 01.11. 2019 10:48
Good point about mesh size.
 
There is an old Triumph service note which gives that as a possible cause.

Same note also says that a scavenge pipe end being too close to the sump bottom can also be a cause.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: duTch on 01.11. 2019 13:36

 The mesh size is definitely worth checking....fwiw, I discovered the brass mesh strainer around the pickup in my Gutzzi fell apart about four years ago so I replaced it with some 100 wire stainless mesh because I figured the 40 wire was too coarse and listed replacement ones looked too dodgy.... I had to pull the sump soon after to replace a seal and found the mesh had sucked a big tear hole *eek*.....so sourced some new brass not so fine and did it again- still monitoring it (nb, the strainer is~70mm dia. x 50mm high)..
 In addition, as far as I can tell from the online images, the SRM type gauze is only a flat disc whereas the original item is cylindrical and allow much more flow..... *dunno*
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: RDfella on 01.11. 2019 16:10
Just another thought, though I’m clutching at straws here – when I rebuilt my A10 I couldn’t get a proper oil flow (return to tank was a light dribble). The pump mating face was flat and I’d stripped and checked the pump. Everything was in order and I was really without a clue.
Then someone (forget who) on this site suggested a pump gasket with bigger holes. Couldn’t see why that’d make a difference, as the gasket mated with both c’case and pump holes OK, but tried it anyway. Success – a positively gushing return flow.
So, does your gasket have oversize holes – and after all the stripping and checking is the lone gasket at pump drive end still in place? Obviously the latter doesn’t apply if using the one piece gasket.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: JulianS on 01.11. 2019 18:03
There are some very nasty pump to crankcase gaskets offered.

Photo top right is the very nasty one, note the small holes, smaller than those in pump and case thus masking the oilway and reducing flow, also the mounting holes are too large and allow the gasket to be displaced.

Top left is a genuine BSA new old stock, see the larger oil holes and smaller mounting holes.

Bottom is SRM gasket extended to deal with the spacing of the pump on the front mounting stud. The large hole is for the modified anti syphon ball used on the end feed conversion.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: RDfella on 01.11. 2019 19:27
Another thought – if the rocker feed is excessive, the oil pump will draw from the tank, but not all will be returned. Some will start accumulating in the crankcase, causing wet sumping. I can think of two reason this may happen: the rocker banjo holes are too big, or the tank breather is blocked.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: bikerboy on 02.11. 2019 02:12
Firstly thanks to all for your ideas and I will answer as I can

Musky

I did exactly that with a hose but I doubt that I went up to 20 psi so good call a recheck on that one

Gauze too tight, now thats not a bad call I have checked that the sump pipe has not been bent down to hit the pump and that has a load of clearance but that gauze is tight maybe I should check that out

Yes the crankcases are untested but I obviously checked all the oilways and blew them thru but the one from the PRV valve still worries me its tiny and maybe some crap has got in ther to block that.

The breather slipping as well is doubtful but well worth a check

When it comes to the oil pump, yes it has the spacing washer behind the drive and yes it has the fibre washer under the front bold. As for the gasket I always specifically check the holes line up perfectly knowing what gaskets are like nowadays.

The oil pump was not changed as such, it was on my other A10 and running fine but I put a rev counter drive on that and used the pump on the plunger engine when I rebuilt it so in my eyes it should be good.

Oil lines round the wrong way? Thats not really possible on the plunger as its totally different to the swinging arm model

End float I managed to get down to 2 thou which is pretty good in itself, I did use shims instead of making a one piece shim but there is no sign of anything in the sump that would indicate them breaking up, plus its done it from the start and I have only done 100 miles on it now

I will say I have dropped the sump 3 times now and on two occasions I have considered it had too much oil in it so my next move is firstly to degrease the damned thing its coated in oil yet again but at least I know it wont rust :(

Next I am going to take the PRV out of one of my running A10's just in case and put it in this one as a test

If that fails I am going to strip the timing case side down, check the breather location and send the oil pump away for a recon unit, a guy on the south coast  has said he will do a recon exchange pump for about £85 which is not unreasonable.

While the pump is off I am going to (yet again) whack an air line on all the oilways particularly the one down to the sump to see if that has some form of a leak or something in it.

If all that fails I might seriously consider setting fire to it :(
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: edboy on 02.11. 2019 21:29
i think we have all been there bikerboy.
i rebuilt a plunger engine and hadnt noticed that the plug for the prv to camshaft gallery was missing.oil ***** out everywhere and i thought i had cracked cases.
you learn so much more on the second engine rebuild.
Title: Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
Post by: RDfella on 03.11. 2019 12:26
bikerboy - know how you feel - I was on the brink of smashing up my GF when it suddenly started refusing to pump oil soon after a rebuild. Spent hours on it, getting nowhere. Never did find the cause, but it's OK now.
Before you start stripping things and throwing money at it, try the simple ones first.
Is the tank breather clear? A bit of hose should quickly confirm that.
Are the rocker banjo bolts the right ones? If the holes are too big, that could cause your problem as the return to tank would be diminished.
Re the sump gauze - that's only really to prevent crap from getting to the pump and damaging its teeth. Most filtration is done by sedimentation in the tank so, provided your engine is clean, try running it without the gauze for a few miles.
Lastly, on SA models the sump pickup pipe has a pin welded in it just above the ball to prevent the anti-drain ball from going too high. Does the plunger have a pin as well? Because if they're missing, apparently the ball can rise too far and block the return pipe.