The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: RogerSB on 16.12. 2019 13:26
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GB kindly suggested I start a new topic with this information about fitting LEDs to our BSAs.
https://www.jlclassics.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/jlc?opendocument&part=13
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Unless fitted ‘for fun’ I fail to see the point of fitting LED bulbs to a motorcycle. If incandescent bulbs are fitted and lit, cost in fuel to power them would be around a half penny an hour. Unless one is a night-time despatch rider, the next ice age will be upon us before any financial benefit would be reaped.
And talking of finances, how much does a LED bulb cost compared with an incandescent one? And how long do the LEDs last? Salesmen tell us practically forever, but if my torches (flashlight in USA) are anything to go by, not so long at all. Which, given their greater electronic complexity compared with incandescent, doesn’t surprise me. And then there’s the light quality. Frankly, I find the light from a white LED irritating. It’s just too cold and white. And the light never seems spread out enough. Street lighting is one example, where instead of floodlighting the area, they act like a row of spotlights. You tend to get a similar situation to driving along a road lined with trees during bright sunshine. Dark, bright, dark etc. Seems to me, in urban areas at least, that’s a danger as a pedestrian or cyclist could be almost unseen when in the dark area.
More expensive, more to go wrong so, unless fitted for energy economy (eg streetlights) I can’t see the attraction. Just my TPW.
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Unless fitted ‘for fun’ I fail to see the point of fitting LED bulbs to a motorcycle. If incandescent bulbs are fitted and lit, cost in fuel to power them would be around a half penny an hour. Unless one is a night-time despatch rider, the next ice age will be upon us before any financial benefit would be reaped.
*conf2* It's not about any sort of financial benefit, it's about keeping the Ah low for the battery.
Speaking for myself, I only use my A10 for pleasure these days and as the throttle isn't wide open most of the time the regulator doesn't always cut in to charge the battery, even with a DVR2 fitted. The main advantage is, I believe, for the stop light, which is continually on and off - whenever or wherever you ride. The benefit of fitting LEDs is that they consume very, very low amps. I wouldn't fit or recommend them for a headlight but good for a bright daytime running pilot light.
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G'day Roger.
Like RD I can't see the point with a magneto ignited bike that only does daytime or occasional night ride home from the pub.
I can see the advantage for both my electronic ignited A7/10's but in the last year have only ridden home from the pub once (that I remember).
Cheers
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G'day Roger.
Like RD I can't see the point with a magneto ignited bike that only does daytime or occasional night ride home from the pub.
I can see the advantage for both my electronic ignited A7/10's but in the last year have only ridden home from the pub once (that I remember).
Cheers
Don't you use your headlight as a DRL ?
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G'day Roger.
Like RD I can't see the point with a magneto ignited bike that only does daytime or occasional night ride home from the pub.
I can see the advantage for both my electronic ignited A7/10's but in the last year have only ridden home from the pub once (that I remember).
Cheers
Hi Musky, I can appreciate your point (up to a point) but up until a couple of years ago, before I fitted a DVR2 and changed to LEDs more than a few times, when riding home in the dusk or dark I needed lights and very quickly the headlight faded to a glimmer. Ok if you can keep going but not too good in the traffic and in a town. I do only ride for pleasure these days but I also ride a lot, during the summer and winter, and here in the UK a lot of the time, with our inclement weather, it's wise to switch your lights on even during the day.
Some years ago when I rode my A10 as daily transport and riding 350 miles nearly every weekend from the barracks on Friday evening to Plymouth and back again over night on Sunday when serving in the marines there was never a problem with charging (that was on 6V). Nor was there ever a problem with wet sumping.
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my A and my B both (with magnetos) have 4000 lumen LEDs on the front with the main purpose of being visible in day light hours - high beam or low. Bright LED at the rear too. its defensive. they are 'good enough' at night and waaayyy better than the original 6v 35W incandescent. probably not as good as a 12v 60W halogen - the LEDs have a 'thinner' light. but the LEDs won't melt my dynamo and the battery never goes flat.
Unless you have an alternator/athlon with more power, I would recommend them for a headlight, just dont buy rubbish LEDs. they are definitely more expensive
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my A and my B both (with magnetos) have 4000 lumen LEDs on the front with the main purpose of being visible in day light hours - high beam or low. Bright LED at the rear too. its defensive. they are 'good enough' at night and waaayyy better than the original 6v 35W incandescent. probably not as good as a 12v 60W halogen - the LEDs have a 'thinner' light. but the LEDs won't melt my dynamo and the battery never goes flat.
Unless you have an alternator/athlon with more power, I would recommend them for a headlight, just dont buy rubbish LEDs. they are definitely more expensive
Hi Mike, I have a 12W British Pre Focus Quartz Halogen 35/35W (from P Goff) for my headlight, which uses 2.92Ah. The rest are LEDs (Oh! except the speedo bulb now). I can't imagine riding at night today with only a 6V 30/24W like I did ** years ago.
When serving in the Royal Marines I rode my GF from Plymouth to Portsmouth over night on a Sunday nearly every weekend for a year. It took about 6 hours and I had to be on parade , bright, smart and shiny, at 7.30 am in the morning. In those days, here in the SW of England, there were no motorways (the nearest now is 50 miles away), only a few dual carriageways when you got near Southampton, the roads were mostly winding, narrow two lane roads. Mind you 100% eyesight then and didn't get cramp when riding!
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RD, as Roger says, on our bikes it's about conservation of amps- at least on everything other than the headlight which has more available amps to fed it....I don't disagree with you on the other stuff but not so relevant here except;
..... Frankly, I find the light from a white LED irritating. It’s just too cold and white .....
I'm sure you mean white as opposed to red or other colour and are aware that 'white' comes in a range of spectrum from warm yellow to cold white 2K to ~6K .... just to be clear :! Maybe headlight LED's need to be more yellow (I hate those blueish ones too)
*beer*
......for my headlight, which uses 2.92Ah.....
I'm sure you mean 2.92A (unless it took an hour to measure *smile*)
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Mind you 100% eyesight then
yes Roger, that's definitely a thing for me too. Also the light that other vehicles are emitting has gone up 10 fold. its an arms race to be seen and to see.
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I have yet to find an LED headlight bulb that actually illuminates the road in front of you. Road signs, verges, oncoming traffic yes but the actual bit you want to see, no.
All in favour of LED stop/tail bulbs but that's all. I still do a fair bit of night riding and A7 and A10 both have BPF bulbs which are fine. My bikes are just normal daily transport, not playthings so have to be practical and usable.
Don't really see the point of minimising current draw from the dynamo. If you have 60 watts to use, why not use them?
In a somewhat damp climate, I rather like the fact that incandescent bulbs give off heart and help keep the instruments and reflector dry.
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.......... Also the light that other vehicles are emitting has gone up 10 fold. its an arms race to be seen and to see. ....
Including knobs with gazillion LED lightbars pushing sunlight.... *eek*
......... Road signs, verges, oncoming traffic yes but the actual bit you want to see, no. .....
It's handy seeing those bits to not need to wave a hand n front of the light to check it's on, but
......I have yet to find an LED headlight bulb that actually illuminates the road in front of you.....
....having only been on a major back road a couple of times on early winter mornings, any oncoming traffic did seem to push the light back into the battery, *conf2* but was otherwise ok...
.....Don't really see the point of minimising current draw from the dynamo. If you have 60 watts to use, why not use them?..
Maybe if you able to ride at a speed where the revd keep up with it, but crap around town....
......In a somewhat damp climate, I rather like the fact that incandescent bulbs give off heart and help keep the instruments and reflector dry. ..
So now we need a 💓 emotoconjob just for you? (that came up unintended as a suggestion) *smile*
LED's do actually give of a lot of ** heat ** ... *eek*
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'oncoming traffic did seem to push the light back into the battery'
Thank you for that duTch *smile*
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Shouldn't have to rev the nuts off the bike to balance the headlight - something wrong there.
A throwback to the days of photons falling off the bulb, trickling off the reflector onto the mudguard and occasionally hitting the tyre and being flung a few feet in front of the bike.
All the road tests claim (accurately) that the dynamo should balance the lights at 30mph in top. If not, why not?
I do like LED stop/tails as you can sit with the brake light on as long as you like. Essential if you are at the back of a traffic queue in the dark.
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Like Black Sheep I don't understand the argument about having to rev the bike to keep up with the lights. A fast tickover should be sufficient. Is it perhaps that these people have changed to 12v but are expecting the original dynamo to cut in at normal revs?
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I use LED stop/tail and speedo rev counter. The original speedo bulbs frequently blew with vibration the LEDs dont.
Have tried LED BPF headlight but found they had very poor beam pattern, tried 3 different ones. Too expensive for further experiment
Tried LED H4 but they had a bulky heat sink.
Now use a 35/35 12 volt HS1 bulb in an old flat glass Lucas H4 light unit (better beam pattern than the "new" Lucas domed glass ones)
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Well you are right & your are wrong.
Firstly unless you have fitted new field windings & armatures your old 3L's will not be putting out their stated 80 Watts to start with probably closer to 40 to 60 Watts.
Then yo can start looking at all of the old switches with weak springs and arc burn on the contacts followed by grubby oxadized bullets usually with less than 1/2 of the original wires still intact.
It is always fun to measure the voltage at the globe contacts on the bikes of people rubbishing Lucas electrics.
IT is generally around the 3-4 V mark, thus you have to be running fast enough to be producing the full 7.5V in order to get something better than 5 at the globe.
Ask riders when was the last time they cleaned ALL of the contacts on their regulators & most could not even tell you where they are .
Way back in 1956 there was a 4 page spread in The Motorcycle "Are you running Negelectrics ?".
We used to reprint it in The Banter from time to time, when bad lights happened to be topical.
At the ABR's people would ask me what I had done to make my headlight so good, what secret globe / genny/ regulator was I running.
The answer was a rewire with new blade connectors and replating the reflector.
Put most bikes on the stand, and give then a fistfull with the lights on and just about every headlamp will flicker because the switches are worn out, particularly the dip switch if fitted. solution is new switches or as I am prone to do relays , particularly the double pole double throw for switching beams so you are never left in the dark unless an element blows. ( you can even use a 2nd relay to switch the lights on & off.
Some times making things more complicated actually does make them better.
I too got bitten by the LED bug but in my case it was because my globes are no longer being made and the remaining stock are all past their use by dates so when given a good shake, the cement fails and the glass drops off into the reflector or the elements simply burn up.
Thus I was forced to go either for high pressure halogens or LEDs.
The lower power consumption of LED's reeled me in hook line & sinker but I am yet to find one that throws more useable light than the std 25/25 tungsten globe.
Same as Julian, the wallet was fed up with buying very expensive globes that just did not throw sufficient light to ride by.
Excellent light to read a map by but just not enough to be able to see the road at much more than a brisk walking pace.
As Black Sheep noted, the new stop / tail globes are brilliant and I now use one that throws a very strong pencil beam of light back that you can see for miles.
So much better than the "bulbs that last 4 ever " circuit board fitted to the A65 which had very poor beam spread from the 5 deg LED's used on the board.
OTOH it is still there & still works although I have not ridden the A65 for quite some time.
The best light I even had from a 6V system was to toss the Lucas reflector & fit a VW Kombi one then use the 6V halogen VW aftermarket globe.
This was fitted to the B40 , gave excellent light and ran for decades without any problems.
As for the blind farts who can not see unless they are throwing 10,000,000 lumens of miss aligned light illuminating everything in a 5 mile radius from either side of their of their wanker waggons, yes they are a nuisense.
I have 2 std practices to overcome them if they are behind
1) go down through the gears till the bike is at a crawl till they pass
2) swerve abruptly onto the verge till they are gone .
Some times they even stop to offer assistance which when time permits allows me to explain how they are making it very dangerous for other road users with their excessive light and on a couple of time the villian has agreed to sit on my bike with my lights on while their partner turns their bitumen melting appartus on & off.
Usually they appologise as they had no idea just how strong the shadow of their lights was.
As for cars coming the other way all you can do is use the "night eye" trick.
As they approach , close one eye and watch your verge .
Once they have gone past switch eyes, give the blinded eye 30 seconds or so to recover then reopen it.
If you still see a red ring, close it again.
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If you are replacing a brake/tail light with an LED, be sure to order one with independent circuit design or you may end up having troubles like Roger.
What 'Taillights with Brake Lights' in the attached link doesn't tell you is the taillight combination circuits used on cars can give a lower voltage feedback into the taillight circuit when braking unless designed with diodes to prevent this.
There is no problem with this unless you have other lights wired common with the taillight.
cheers
www.lunaraccents.com/LED-taillight-circuit.html
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...oncoming traffic did seem to push the light back into the battery..
In reality probably a case of facing the resistance of outgoing electrons, the aforementioned photons being compressed into the black hole on the headlight shell *eek*
BS and RD, I was referring to trying a 6V 65/65W halogen which on an unimpeded journey may well function (maxed out) just ok, but in a around town situation just didn't go so well, especially if trying to regenerate the battery depleted from period of extra slow/stationary light usage
But as I won't pretend I'm qualified to debate electrics, Trev's ^^above^^ story fairly covers it..... *beer* *beer*
Nb- where I am, the sunlight runs out by 18:42 (6:42pm) at this time of year until 04:49 am / 04:44 (earliest)
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So much is down to wiring and contacts. Don't seem to have any problems sourcing 6 or 12V BPF bulbs. Even the humble 30/24 isn't bad for unlit roads at 50 mph - but anything modern with banks of photon cannons does make life challenging...
A big problem is the ageing population. Old folks* just can't see well (or at all) in the dark. Car manufacturers compensate by giving them searchlights. Add on the other things for older drivers, automatic light switches lest they forget, warnings if wandering off-lane, auto collision braking, auto parking and it leaves us old fashioned rider-input motorcyclists out on a limb.
Auto lighting is dangerous. If a stretch of road has patches of light and dark, the headlights automatically switch on and off. Are they flashing for some reason? Will something come out of a side turning in the mistaken belief that they are being signalled out?
Apologies for a bit of a rant. Think of me when I take the Velo out after dark with its 40 watt Miller dynamo. With sunset today at 15:38, it's the season of night riding.
*That's anyone even older than me.
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The current, pig ugly, Land Rover Discoveries appear to have been designed with a light beam aimed at my door mirror. Feckers!
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So much is down to wiring and contacts. Don't seem to have any problems sourcing 6 or 12V BPF bulbs. Even the humble 30/24 isn't bad for unlit roads at 50 mph - but anything modern with banks of photon cannons does make life challenging...
A big problem is the ageing population. Old folks* just can't see well (or at all) in the dark. Car manufacturers compensate by giving them searchlights. Add on the other things for older drivers, automatic light switches lest they forget, warnings if wandering off-lane, auto collision braking, auto parking and it leaves us old fashioned rider-input motorcyclists out on a limb.
Auto lighting is dangerous. If a stretch of road has patches of light and dark, the headlights automatically switch on and off. Are they flashing for some reason? Will something come out of a side turning in the mistaken belief that they are being signalled out?
Apologies for a bit of a rant. Think of me when I take the Velo out after dark with its 40 watt Miller dynamo. With sunset today at 15:38, it's the season of night riding.
*That's anyone even older than me.
If the road melters were all over 60 I could understand it but the bulk would be in the 20 to 40 bracket.
usually in a V8 urban tank that comes std with 100/150 watt globes, more than enough for blind old Mr McGoo.
Way back there was a light demonstration in one of our science museums ( MAA&S , now called The Powerhouse )
It was very instructive and showed how too much light can cause things to vanish ( magicians use it regularly ).
Unfortunately the new sofisticates running the place think it is soo "old fashioned" that it has been dissmantled.
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If you are replacing a brake/tail light with an LED, be sure to order one with independent circuit design or you may end up having troubles like Roger.
What 'Taillights with Brake Lights' in the attached link doesn't tell you is the taillight combination circuits used on cars can give a lower voltage feedback into the taillight circuit when braking unless designed with diodes to prevent this.
There is no problem with this unless you have other lights wired common with the taillight.
cheers
www.lunaraccents.com/LED-taillight-circuit.html
This may be jumping from one thread to another but reading the above from Olev is where I believe I went wrong. My bike's bulbs were bought from Paul Goff, 12V BPF 35/35 Quartz Halogen & tail/stop LED a couple of years ago and I've had no problems and I'm confident he makes sure the ones he sells are suitable for bikes. My problem started with the sidecar when I had to add more lights. Those LEDs were bought from Classic Car LEDs. Running out of other options I'd already come to that conclusion and as previously mentioned my intention is to replace them with ones from Paul Goff in the New Year.
My GF had already been converted to 12V when I bought it and although changing it back to 6V may be kinder to the charging system I haven't had a reason or inclination to do that but instead opted to fit a DVR2 and a belt drive to improve the output of the original 6V E3L dynamo. My A10 needs to be doing about 38 - 40 mph in top for the DVR2 to cut in, which is an improvement to what is was like before (needed to be doing about 50 mph). I don't think you can compare how an A7 or A10 with a 6V system behaves re charging etc. to one that has been converted to 12V without it having a complete upgrade of the dynamo. My previous two A10s and several other British bikes I've owned over the years were all 6V. I never had any complaints about that with any of them, so I'm not saying that to convert to 12V is better or the way to go. At the moment it's what I've got and with extra lights to power I'm trying to do what I can to balance things.
(Edit) Not guilty of old wiring, worn out switches, corroded connectors, etc.
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When I converted my A7 to 12 v I replaced the armature and field coil with rather splendid American made items. Loads balance out at about 33 mph so not bad. Headlight is a 50/40 BPF. The conversion was to allow the use of heated grips. Pretty much essential if you are covering a distance in winter.
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My A10, with bulbs as earlier entry, is 12 volt, using 6 volt armature and field coil JG regulator and DVR dynamo belt drive, balances at 30-33mph.
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I’m using an LED combination rear/brake LED that I plugged straight into the original holder. I’m still on 6V and wanted as much as was available going up front. One thing to watch out for is when the bike has stood for a while and the voltage off the battery has dropped a bit. They then don’t work and get you looking for connectivity issues that aren’t there.
On modern overly bright car lighting, beyond not being able to see past them (or anything really), the light clusters are designed so poorly that you have no chance of seeing an indicator flashing amongst all that luminescence.
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On modern overly bright car lighting, beyond not being able to see past them (or anything really), the light clusters are designed so poorly that you have no chance of seeing an indicator flashing amongst all that luminescence.
Agreed
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My A10, with bulbs as earlier entry, is 12 volt, using 6 volt armature and field coil JG regulator and DVR dynamo belt drive, balances at 30-33mph.
That's interesting, my dynamo belt is SRM, so it's DVR2 versus JG regulator, or dynamo condition. Has your dynamo been recondition Julian? Mine hasn't (not during my time anyway). I have, however, replaced the wiring, connectors and brushes in the last couple of years and give the D and F contacts a clean now and again.
Looking at Dynamo Regulators information it seems 38 mph is about as good as I can expect.
https://dynamoregulators.com/documents/improved%20charging%20for%20BSA.pdf
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Looking at Dynamo Regulators information it seems 38 mph is about as good as I can expect.
also i think the srm belt kits have a larger diameter pully on the dynamo end than the DVR belt kits, so srm's spin more slowly / need higher engine revs for volts. I got the srm kit before I learned this. so Roger you and I need to ride a bit faster!
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i think you should knock it down a cog and get it charging if it worries you, I used to do just that until fitting a belt drive that now charges at about 1800 revs and 30ish in top gear, that is with 12volt conversion on the A sev. somebody mentioned putting their hand in front of the headlamp to make sure it is working, well I still do it , it's a habbit that has never left me but I only do this in daytime riding because I don't go out in the dark- it's scary that dark is. RIGHT!! its Friday and I am oorfff to the barley pop shop, thankyou for listening and a merry Christmas to all our readers *beer* *beer* and you people with the terrible threat of the fires down under - try and stay safe it doesn't look good on our TV reports *eek*
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Looking at Dynamo Regulators information it seems 38 mph is about as good as I can expect.
also i think the srm belt kits have a larger diameter pully on the dynamo end than the DVR belt kits, so srm's spin more slowly / need higher engine revs for volts. I got the srm kit before I learned this. so Roger you and I need to ride a bit faster!
This is my DVR kit if you want to compare.
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That's a hefty belt to transmit a tenth of a horsepower. Would almost do for a primary. One I fitted on my special is only around half that size and still fine 20yrs and thousands of miles later.
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That's a hefty belt to transmit a tenth of a horsepower. Would almost do for a primary.
Yet they do brake if the tension is set too tight.
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Roger- I fitted a new old stock armature and brushes and new production field coil around 6 years ago.
Engine slightly geared up with a 22 tooth front sprocket.
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Thanks Julian & Roy. Here's my SRM belt. Some time ago I remember deciding that if ever I needed to change it I'd get Mike Hutchings version next. I can't remember why exactly.
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Hi Gents,
I have recently fitted out my 61 GF with all led lights from Paul Goff. The ammetre barely moves as there is very little load on the dynamo and the light spread from the new style 12v BPF headlight is pretty good (I am a bit wary about riding too close behind saloon cars now as I can see the interior of the car lit up!!) A bit on the pricey side but at least I know I can be seen even on the sunniest of days now.
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Thanks Julian & Roy. Here's my SRM belt. Some time ago I remember deciding that if ever I needed to change it I'd get Mike Hutchings version next. I can't remember why exactly.
Higher gearing and a wider belt maybe.
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Roger - reading the DVR information the 38 mph given to balance is for a load of 84 watts - 45 watt headlamp and coil ignition.
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Higher gearing and a wider belt maybe.
Your right Roy, I remember now, my belt is an SRM one and so it only increases the dynamo speed by 10% and as Mike said in reply 28 it takes higher revs to match the 20% from Dynamo Regulators.
Roger - reading the DVR information the 38 mph given to balance is for a load of 84 watts - 45 watt headlamp and coil ignition.
Also thanks for pointing that out Julian, I know the E3L is capable of delivering 60W (in good condition) and I wondered where the 84W came from.
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the other thing about the srm one i bought was no threads into it to pull it off. being light alloy i'm not sure how i'll ever get it off without bending it
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being light alloy i'm not sure how i'll ever get it off without bending it
Had to remove mine once, the thing with a taper is it takes little movement to get loose, I have an L shaped tool (it's a beekeepers hive tool), it's slim and can be inserted behind the pulley to give a gently force outwards, then a tap with a plastic hammer was enough to spring the pulley off, no harm done.
Pic attached ---- these tools are not expensive and you'll find a multitude of use for it